Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture Discussion Group => Topic started by: Ran Morrissett on January 21, 2019, 07:00:51 AM
-
Winter rates are here, so I play Pinehurst No. 2 every chance I get, including this past Saturday and the weekend before.
What has stood out these past nine days is the intriguing dichotomy between the par 5s and pars 3s. The par 5s (5, 8, 10, 16) from the white tees measure 462, 440, 455, and 478 yards. Even playing them in 45-50f weather, they can be had, though greens like the 5th and 8th produce John Daley-isque temper tantrums.
Conversely, the par 3s (6, 9, 15 and 17) are tough as nails. The same guy talented enough to reach the par 5s in two can easily double each of them (though the 17th is admittedly a notch easier than the three brutes before it).
I find it fascinating, especially because one always follows the other (the par 3 6th follows the par 5 5th, the par 3 9th is sandwiched between the par 5 8th and 10th, the par 3s on the back bookend the par 5 16th, etc.). The alternating prospects between hope and disaster holds great appeal and bizarre things are virtually guaranteed to happen in your group. Birdieing the 5th and then taking one shot more on at the 6th that is 300 yards shorter isn’t an unusual occurrence. Maybe the golfer battles back gamely at the 8th with another birdie only to see his universe implode at the 9th (which Phil H. hilariously dubbed an ‘upturned punchbowl green’ yesterday).
This attribute – which epitomizes give and take course set-up - crystalized as I witnessed firsthand the full gamut of scores. Below are the high and low scores over the 8 holes in question from my two rounds with six different sub-10 handicap golfers:
5 – birdie/double
6 – par/pick up
8 – birdie/ double
9 – par/ pick up
10 – near eagle but a birdie/triple
15 – birdie/double
16 – par/double
17 – par/double
In sum, lots of birdies and doubles and those 8 holes compromise 45% of the course. With such would swings of fortune available, the golfer is encouraged to stay engaged throughout the round. You are hitting in three woods in hopes of getting a birdie or eagle and then getting demolished with a 4-5-6-7 iron in your hand at the one shotters.
Which brings me to the point of the post: which courses in the ~6,300 yard range offer something similar?
The obvious one is Augusta National from the white tees but in the winter months, my limited experience is that the par 5s play much longer than the advertised distances. Reaching 13 and 15 in two is out of the equation and the downhill wedge into 15 is as hard as any 100 yard shot in golf so .... I am not sure that it counts. Royal Melbourne West comes close with its par 5s in providing opportunity but to me, only the 7th screams DOUBLE as loud as the par 3s at Pinehurst. As great as RM West 16 is, you still should get a 4. I thought of England - the home of 6,000 to 6,400 yard courses – but no set of one shotters stood out as similarly vicious to the ones at Pinehurst. How about Swinley Forest, you say, but it doesn’t have enough par 5s acting as a counter balance.
A few points: First, you can say par doesn’t matter and that some of these holes are really par 4s but … the fact is par does matter to the retail guest. It just does. Second, you can say this strategy applies to the bomber on every course (i.e. crush the par 5s and hang on during the par 3s). Well, okay but the bomber is playing one set back (the Blue tees at Pinehurst measure an additional 600+ yards and the US Open tees are 600 yards on top of the Blue tees). So, bombs away guys – let me know how it works from back there.
Yes, some things have changed with time (the 4th and 5th holes switched pars and 8 and 16 are treated as par 4s for events). Today’s agronomy renders the 6th and 9th at Pinehurst like Shinnecock Hill’s 11th: ‘the world’s shortest par 5’. Nonetheless, for decades, Pinehurst No. 2 has acted as a siren to the winter golfer. For people like you and me, the differences at Pinehurst are so stark between the 3s and 5s and none of it is wind-related. As a set, the par 5s average just under 460 yards. That is short but no one walks off the course thinking that they were pandered to and how easy that was. The par 3s average in length from the white tees 165 yards, which seems neither long nor short but do-able (unlike you play the 6th). Add it all up and you are playing a 6,300 yard course with gobs of possibilities.
I was on the phone last night with Jim Urbina and he puts Pinehurst No. 2 in his world top 6. Doak gave it a perfect 10 in The Guide. Kyle Franz told me he gives it a 10 too. You have the history, the soil and the greens but surely some of the affection that it stirs is derived from the variety that the 5s and 3s combine to present for the resort guest.
There might be a handful of courses that do the same (please identify them!) but I wish many more clubs/resorts could capture the dynamic nature of the holes on No. 2, all wrapped up in a 6,300 yard package.
Best,
-
Not knowing the course firsthand I can’t really comment properly on your thoughts but I’ve just re-read the Pinehurst No2 Courses by Country profile - http://golfclubatlas.com/courses-by-country/usa/pinehurst-no-2-2/ (http://golfclubatlas.com/courses-by-country/usa/pinehurst-no-2-2/) - and wow, what a stunning course! And the thought of playing such a course at winter rates in 45*f-50*f weather has me enviously itching to reach for my passport! :)
Atb
-
Doesn't it all come down to the amazing green complexes on the those 8 holes?
#5 - The damndest green to hit in two (I've only played as par 4 and that well over a hundred times). I think I've hit the green in two less then 10 times. You must hit the perfect shot, landing just short right of the green and using the slope at the green or the slope in the fairway to hit a slight draw. Counterintuitively, the best place to miss is long right for many pins.
#6 - Steep false front on the left, but you can run it up on the right. Deep bunker left, shallow bunkers right. Knob in the middle right portion of the green that can mess with you if you miss the green right or leave your tee shot on the front right. When the pin is past middle, long left is often the best miss.
#8 - You have just blasted your drive. You have a 4 to 6 iron into the green. You either have a slight downhill lie, promoting a block into the bunker or a slight uphill ball above your feet lie, promoting a hook. The only thing on your mind is DON'T GO LEFT OR LONG! Back pins can be extremely dangerous even with a wedge.
#9 - About an 8-iron from the 6,300 yard tees for me. False front on the right. Upper tier on the left with fronting bunkers and a steep drop off if you go long. If you are on the wrong tier (including off the green) par is hard to come by. If the pin is left, you are likely to be in the front bunker. If the pin is right, I seem to end up near the tenth tee a lot.
#10 - Just a long iron to the green, but don't long, left or right. Long is a really hard downhill pitch, even to front pins. The left and right bunkers are not terrible, but not easy up-and-downs. Put the pin back right or left and four becomes rather difficult.
#15 - Like #5, a really difficult green to hit. In some respects a mirror image of #5. Steep false front on the right with a deep bunker on the right. You can run it on from the left. Land a little too far onto the green and your run ball runs 5 to 10 yards over, leaving you with a not so easy pitch.
#16 - The longest par, leaving usually a 3-wood or hybrid. A narrow opening with an up slope makes it difficult to run it on. Mishit the shot a little and it's the easiest pitch to get close. I think this is the easiest green of the par 5s, but it's also the longest hole.
#17 - In my opinion, the easiest of the par 3s. But, the front bunker is not good as it is very deep. Perhaps a likely spot for those that realize the hole is slightly downhill but don't hit enough club. Green generally slopes back right to front left. You do have a bit of fairway there to miss it, leaving a straight forward up and down, but I rarely see anyone miss it there.
Interestingly, almost everyone of these eight holes will leave you hitting to the green with hybrid to 8 iron. So, while the course is 6,300 yards you aren't hitting a lot of wedges to greens. In fact, here are the holes I typically hit wedges to (this was a decade ago) - 1, 3, 12, and 13.
All the other par 4s resulted in some sort of hybrid to 8 iron shot. But, all of them were different.
I've been a plus handicap basically since I was 16. I've played the course from the white, blue, and Open tees. I've played back when it only had three sets of tees. I've never broken par on the course!
Great green complexes requiring different shots into the green are the way to defend par.
-
As a senior golfer playing from the green tees at 5800 yards I find that the hazards that challenge those from the white tees are consequential for me also. When I moved up and realized this the course became significantly more fun to play and now I can enjoy the tests the green complexes present. That a course the stature of #2 can be relevant for golfers of such varied ages and abilities is a testimony to the talents of Donald Ross. The more I play it the more it grows on me.
[/size]A few years ago I had the great fortune to play it with architect/shapers Kyle Franz, Jaeger Kovitch and Benjamin Warren, it was a very humbling experience. Listening to their discussions of the subtleties of the architecture made me realize that so much of what we take for granted is so thoughtfully planned and executed. So much of what they appreciated I had never even considered. #2 is a work of art even if I cannot fully discern all of its nuances. I felt like a horseback rider looking at a shoe on a horse, pleased that it is there so that I can get on with my ride. As a horseshoer I can look a hoof with a shoe and discuss ad nauseam all of the minute factors that affect the evaluation of the work (you don't want to know). The more differentiations we are aware of in the world around us the greater our appreciation can be.
-
Heading down in February to play Mid Pines, Pine Needles, Tobacco Road and The Cradle. How much of a break cost wise do you get on # 2 in the Winter?
-
Ran - great thread.
Thinking about this, I would put Cruden Bay in this category. I believe the middle tees are just below 6,300 yards and there are so many holes that can yield birdies or doubles. The holes that come to mind:
2 - Not a long hole, and if you judge your approach correctly, it is a relatively flat green. Miss the green though, and you are looking at a chip shot well over your head
3 - Drivable, but easy to spray one and lose it in the dunes!!
4 - I don't know many who will birdie this par-3. I'm sure it's possible, but gosh golly that's a tough 3
6 - A par 5, which should be easy to birdie. But...it is tough as nails. I've seen birdie putts here and lots of pick-ups
8 - Again, it seems so easy, and yet, the dunes grab those trying to be too greedy, and in firm conditions, there can be nightmare shots from around the green
11 - Miss the green at this short 3 and pay a heavy price!
12 - Short, and simple, but it's the tightest fairway on the course and after miles wide fairways until this point, it suddenly becomes a daunting proposition. However, drive it safe, and it's a realistic birdie chance
13 - A par-5 where anything can happen
14 - I'm sure everything from a 2 to a 12 has been made here
15 - Can you trust your line?
It really can be fireworks or famine. A truly brilliant course that I believe fits the dynamism that you mention with No. 2!
-
Ran,
Nice summary of #2. However, when you make the statement that "you wish more courses were like #2", I have to grin. You have to remember you are talking about what many consider one of the absolute best golf courses in the world! I think we would all like to play that quality of golf course much more often (if not all the time) but for some reason there are 30+ thousand courses out there that are not near that level of greatness :( I wonder why that is? There must be a reason ;)
Mark
-
Ran -
I assume you'd have mentioned it if you had, but have you ever played the course with hickories (or with 50s era persimmon & blades)? Given that the course gave you all the fun & challenge you could handle using modern equipment, I wonder what your experience would be like from 6300 yards using the implements of Ross' day. Which is to suggest: maybe the course is so dynamic for you today precisely because it was such a difficult (if enjoyable) test for your golfing ancestors. Can present day architects 'skip a step' and get the dynamism in their courses ready-made, without having to risk offending our current expectations with the difficult step/stage? I'm told by many knowledgeable posters that they most certainly can and do, and I defer to that opinion. But I raise the issue as a possible 'answer' to the question in your subject line.
P
-
I think the Kiawah Ocean Course has some similar qualities on the Par 5s and 3s. Whichever wind blows there at least one or two of the fives are reachable with two good shots and the two par threes on the back are definitely pulse quickeners in any kind of breeze.
-
Have you not been to Rye? Those par-3’s are disasters in waiting.
Barnbougle and Pacific Dunes also fit your description.
-
Ran,
I played Pinehurst No. 2 last year for the 1st time since Coore and Crenshaw made the modifications. I thought the course was improved and great, but our mutual friend Jay Mickle has corrupted me and I still think Mid Pines is the better course for a lot of the same reasons you mentioned for Pinehurst No. 2.
Therefore, I started wondering why so many people love Pinehurst No. 2, but hardly talk about Mid Pines.
Is Pinehurst No. 2 a course the more you play the better it gets? The same happen to me at Seminole, 1st time I played it I thought it was over rated, but the 2nd time, I fell in love. 3rd time I wanted to marry.
I am looking forward to playing No. 2 again this year.
-
Thomas,
We need to get you here - and you know what? As soon as I saw your name, I knew I had screwed up. Our beloved Old Minchinhampton qualifies based on its awesome one shotters and some par 5s (and a few 4s) that can be had. Lots of 'to and fro' at Old Minch.
Steve,
Yes it does - great greens provide enormous flexibility and reduce the requirement of length.
Tim G,
Very good call and I am particularly happy to see your reference of wide fairways at CB. A few years ago, I received emails with photos that backed up the contention that the fairways were cruelly narrow, lined with thick rough left and right. Hopefully, that was a weather related blip vs. the club making a conscious decision to be a 'world top 100 course.' :-\
Tim M.,
I played with members, so it is $100, carrying your own bag, for a period of time in January and February. Add in Dormie and its dormant fairways and THIS IS THE BEST TIME TO COME TO MOORE COUNTY. I have been invited to X,Y and Z this January and February and I tell everyone, No chance - I can play No. 2 and there is no place in the world I would rather be this time of year.
Mark,
What I should have written is, 'Given that - literally - every modern architect I know has been to No. 2, why are their efforts sterile in comparison?' Would that have made you happy? 8) If you see something, learn from it and the course set-up of Pinehurst No. 2 has been on display for decades; don't know why the pick-up elsewhere is so slow.
James,
I agree and it's why the Ryder Cup should go back there as all kinds of things can occur.
Tom,
Rye has one 'give' hole - the 1st - and then it is a beating thereafter given its very 'tight' and unmerciful par of 68 so ….. I think your courses are a better example of wild swings of fortune. I would have more birdies on No. 2 in one week than I would at Rye in a year. :'(
Peter,
Totally get your point and I would add that Pinehurst No. 2 didn't take its final form until the mid-1930s, and by then steel reigned. I have a beautiful hickory set from Ralph Livingston but the thought of using it at No. 2 is a 'no-go' as the architect built No. 2 with other implements in mind. Congrats to Pinehurst for not moving the tee up on 8, for instance, and calling it/making it a par 4 for the retail player.
Paul,
Given that No. 2 has relatively mundane topography, it is unlikely to WOW the first time player that perhaps in this day and age has played some great golf along big bodies of water. At some point though in the golfer's maturation process, he may come to appreciate that a three foot rise and tight short grass is both more debilitating AND more meaningful from a golf perspective than a dramatic dune 20 times bigger. The Mid Pines mafia is strong here but Mid Pines is also over-seeded this time of year :P and Pinehurst No. 2 is dormant and firm, so even the Mayor of Mid Pines would acknowledge that one course shines now - and the other doesn't.
-
Ran-Thanks for the reply. I love cool weather golf and can see why you don’t want to leave. :)
-
Completely agree - golf is a sweater weather sport!
-
Having played it yesterday, I agree with everything Ran says (although I played the par 3's much better than the par 5's!!...and didn't play well at all).
But I think the "explanation" rests with the amount of time Ross spent caring for #2. In comparison, there are numerous Ross courses at the other end of the scale (perhaps due to financial and other issues throughout decades and/or cost savings maintenance changes during WW II).
My guess is that no other course in history had as much nurturing from a great architect (and for about 4 decades only form that architect). Can anyone think of any course that was blessed by that type of attention?
-
Ran,
How about Roaring Gap? It's even shorter than #2, and the par-5's are all birdie/double bogey holes. The par-3's aren't quite there with #2's, but I've witnessed (and participated in) some pretty ugly scoring with missed tee shots that weren't all that terrible. Another thing RG has that #2 doesn't have is a bunch of short par-4's that lend themselves to widely disparate scoring.
BTW, Jay Mickle and I have played #2 with hickories, and the course totally works with them and the shots that we could get out of our respective clubs.
-
I think the Sacred Nine fits the description.
Four holes between 460 and 492 yards that create a wide variety of potential scores. Two par threes that can wreck a card at any time.
A great risk and reward short par four.
-
Ran,
Great write up. Certainly fascinating that all of those par 5s are legit bird/double holes for even single digits, despite being very short. From what i can tell, P2 looks like you really need a deft touch from 50 yards and in with delicate pitch shots and tricky recovery scenarios. From my experience, most high cappers as myself, really lack in this department, (I've only played with one HC who was good at this part of his game.)
I guess what i'm getting at is, most holes are an easy double for any high capper, and given the severity of these green surrounds it sounds like the course would be an absolute nightmare for the vast majority of HCs. Would you say that's a fair guess?
-
Ran,
Great write up. Certainly fascinating that all of those par 5s are legit bird/double holes for even single digits, despite being very short. From what i can tell, P2 looks like you really need a deft touch from 50 yards and in with delicate pitch shots and tricky recovery scenarios. From my experience, most high cappers as myself, really lack in this department, (I've only played with one HC who was good at this part of his game.)
I guess what i'm getting at is, most holes are an easy double for any high capper, and given the severity of these green surrounds it sounds like the course would be an absolute nightmare for the vast majority of HCs. Would you say that's a fair guess?
This came up in the most recent Fried Egg podcast with Geoff Ogilvy.
No. 2 is actually quite friendly to the high handicapper. Pull out the putter and knock it on the green and two putt. Lots of easy bogeys doing that.
For the low handicapper, it’s kich more tricky because you are definitely trying to get up and down. And that mentality can bring the big number into play because you might get to play the same shot multiple times by getting too cute and then blasting it over the geeen on the third attempt.
Ogilvy commented that he talked with a husband and wife couple who were high handicappers that loved playing No 2 because of all the short grass, virtually no forced carries, and you can putt from everywhere. Ogilvy then said it was one of the hardest courses he has ever played.
I very much agree with these assessments.
-
Steve,
While that sounds great on paper, from what I recall on TV and looking just now at Google Maps most of the greens have bunkers on both sides with the occasional one front or back. If high cappers were short and straight that'd be one thing because it looks like most of the greens are open in the front, but most of us don't know if the miss on the approach will be left or right. Pretty tough to putt out of bunkers or over them.
On a par 4, I'd see that as in or beyond green side bunker in 2, chip out sideways in 3, putt on the green in 4 and two putt for double bogey. A double bogey train sucketh even if we know we're gonna make 2-3 any given round.
-
Palmetto
in spades
-
Steve,
While that sounds great on paper, from what I recall on TV and looking just now at Google Maps most of the greens have bunkers on both sides with the occasional one front or back. If high cappers were short and straight that'd be one thing because it looks like most of the greens are open in the front, but most of us don't know if the miss on the approach will be left or right. Pretty tough to putt out of bunkers or over them.
On a par 4, I'd see that as in or beyond green side bunker in 2, chip out sideways in 3, putt on the green in 4 and two putt for double bogey. A double bogey train sucketh even if we know we're gonna make 2-3 any given round.
Kalen,
Have you played the course?
-
Steve,
I have not.
But when I see the pros struggling to get up and down around most of the crowned greens and I see most of those greens with bunkers left and right, with many bunkers just short of the greens, I'd like to think my assessment so far is not too off kilter.
And that's OK. There are certainly other courses like Pine Valley, Oakmont, ANGC, etc that high cappers will get slaughtered on as well, its all good! ;)
-
Is Pinehurst No. 2 a course the more you play the better it gets? The same happen to me at Seminole, 1st time I played it I thought it was over rated, but the 2nd time, I fell in love. 3rd time I wanted to marry.
Yes, definitely.
[/size]
I am looking forward to playing No. 2 again this year.
Will you be playing Mid Pines again this year? I think your opinion may change after you see both courses at this point in time.
-
Ran -
I assume you'd have mentioned it if you had, but have you ever played the course with hickories (or with 50s era persimmon & blades)? Given that the course gave you all the fun & challenge you could handle using modern equipment, I wonder what your experience would be like from 6300 yards using the implements of Ross' day. Which is to suggest: maybe the course is so dynamic for you today precisely because it was such a difficult (if enjoyable) test for your golfing ancestors. Can present day architects 'skip a step' and get the dynamism in their courses ready-made, without having to risk offending our current expectations with the difficult step/stage? I'm told by many knowledgeable posters that they most certainly can and do, and I defer to that opinion. But I raise the issue as a possible 'answer' to the question in your subject line.
P
I have played with hickories there. While it is very playable with hickories, it was a bit underwhelming, for the reasons Ran listed above. Very few of the greens are receptive to run up/ground shots. So you are essentially playing modern aerial golf with clubs ill suited for that purpose.
I have yet to play it with persimmons and blades but now I want to try.
This came up in the most recent Fried Egg podcast with Geoff Ogilvy.
No. 2 is actually quite friendly to the high handicapper. Pull out the putter and knock it on the green and two putt. Lots of easy bogeys doing that.
For the low handicapper, it’s kich more tricky because you are definitely trying to get up and down. And that mentality can bring the big number into play because you might get to play the same shot multiple times by getting too cute and then blasting it over the geeen on the third attempt.
Ogilvy commented that he talked with a husband and wife couple who were high handicappers that loved playing No 2 because of all the short grass, virtually no forced carries, and you can putt from everywhere. Ogilvy then said it was one of the hardest courses he has ever played.
I very much agree with these assessments.
That's interesting because many high handicappers are too naive to be afraid of the course, because all they see are wide fairways and no rough! I was paired up a couple years ago with a husband and wife, the guy was a mid-teens handicap. He was firing at every pin. He went right at a back pin on the 3rd hole, and made birdie! Any time he went for a pin and missed, getting in trouble, he blamed himself and not the course.
High handicappers are smart to play for the front of greens or just short of the greens, and try to chip/putt on and take their chances from there. A lot of easy bogeys/possible pars, and takes triples or worse and picks-up off the table.
-
Ran:
What do the high/low scores look like for the par 4's?
-
The Mid Pines mafia is strong here but Mid Pines is also over-seeded this time of year :P and Pinehurst No. 2 is dormant and firm, so even the Mayor of Mid Pines would acknowledge that one course shines now - and the other doesn't.
Point made dormant Bermuda on well drained land is surely the preferable surface at this time of year here in the Sandhills and is why I never turn down invitations to #2 or Dormie in the winter.
-
Ran,
I played Pinehurst No. 2 last year for the 1st time since Coore and Crenshaw made the modifications. I thought the course was improved and great, but our mutual friend Jay Mickle has corrupted me and I still think Mid Pines is the better course for a lot of the same reasons you mentioned for Pinehurst No. 2.
Therefore, I started wondering why so many people love Pinehurst No. 2, but hardly talk about Mid Pines.
Is Pinehurst No. 2 a course the more you play the better it gets? The same happen to me at Seminole, 1st time I played it I thought it was over rated, but the 2nd time, I fell in love. 3rd time I wanted to marry.
I am looking forward to playing No. 2 again this year.
I played No. 2 pre-renovation and it was very underwhelming....although I did play it in the winter on a soggy day. I had no desire to revisit.
Fast forward a couple years (2014 to be exact), I headed back for a pro-am. I walked off the No. 2 course and right into the golf shop to get on the books for another time the very next day. It's high up on my personal list and offers great play-ability for many skill levels, true walk-ability, and plenty of charm and old-world ooze.
I've proposed several times since then!
-
Andy Johnson at the Fried Egg released some podcasts with Geoff Ogilvy last week and the topic of Pinehurst came up. Geoff tells a story about how during the 2014 US Open he was chatting with a middle aged couple at the bar who come to Pinehurst every year. They talked about their favorite courses at the resort and he said something to the effect of "#2 must be your least favorite because it is so hard". The couple strongly disagreed as said it was the easiest for them because they never lose a ball and can always putt the ball up on to the greens. In their eyes, the other courses were much tougher.
He goes on to talk about how #2 is one of the hardest courses in the world for pros, but is relatively manageable for people just trying to make a bogey. The course is dynamic because if you are conservative and accept bogey, it's pretty easy. All the trouble begins when you try to make a birdie. This same idea is why #13 and #15 at Augusta are great. If you tried to make a par on either of those holes, you could all day. It's when you try to make 3 or 4 that 7 and 8 come into the picture. The temptation around what looks like an easy shot is what makes #2 a course with high variance scoring.
-
I would nominate the Cashen course at Ballybunion. I played it at 5900 yards and had my hands full, but you can also go back to 6300, if you fancy your luck.
Miss Cashen has five par 3s and five par 5s (not all can be had, but some of the par 4s fill in for that).
The other course at Ballybunion is no slouch either, but I felt that a mindful player can get around much easier. 7 shots in my case.
Ulrich
-
Your description sounds so much like many of the UK/Ireland courses but especially The Old Course and Royal Dornoch. Shall we say that the obvious connection between Ross and those courses is the reason that #2 plays as it does? My nominee in the US is Ballyneal which has much in common with #2 including being wide and firm and fast without even tee markers.
-
I would nominate the Cashen course at Ballybunion. I played it at 5900 yards and had my hands full, but you can also go back to 6300, if you fancy your luck.
Miss Cashen has five par 3s and five par 5s (not all can be had, but some of the par 4s fill in for that).
The other course at Ballybunion is no slouch either, but I felt that a mindful player can get around much easier. 7 shots in my case.
Ulrich
The Cashen course imo doesn’t get enough credit. Okay it’s a tough walk but there’s some distinctly challenging golf out there within a relatively short yardage, which to me is a good thing.
Another course that is a hoot load of fun within a short yardage yet is much better than it may on the surface appear is the Annesley at Royal County Down.
In fact there are a bunch of fine ‘second’ courses at celebrated championship venues which are fun yet challenging with a shorter yardage than the immediately adjacent big brother.....Formby Ladies, St Olaf at Cruden Bay, Carnoustie Burnside.
Short can be fun and challenging.
Atb
-
Kingsley is almost exactly 6300 yards from the blue tees where I play 90% of my rounds, it gets there much differently than #2 but dynamic is as good a description as I can think of.
-
Ran,
I'm glad you took the time to explain this nuance that many overlook...and why it's so hard to play a course only a few times and 'get' it. Also hard when visiting a new area with many courses on the agenda to breathe in the experience before jumping in the car to play a second 18. As I've aged, I've certainly appreciated 27-36 on the same course over a rabid weekend of belt-notching.
Birdie holes at #2? I hover between a 1-4 at any given time and have never been more terrified to draw the putter back or hit an 8 iron to what felt like a car hood area. That is what I personally loved the most and can't wait to experience again.
The green slopes and subtleties are a 10, and the maximum I believe could be enjoyable. They certainly aren't like the old pictures of Morfontaine, which I believe would be excessive today.
Take every round in, enjoy each step. Thanks again for taking the time to write this.
-
Lawsonia at a shade above 6400 yds comes to mind with it's unforgettable distribution of 6 alternating 3s and 5s.
Now not all the par 3s are ball busters but certainly some contain dark recesses lurking to produce the described effect. Regardless I can rarely recall as fetching a stretch of golf that is certainly give and take.
-
Thomas,
We need to get you here - and you know what? As soon as I saw your name, I knew I had screwed up. Our beloved Old Minchinhampton qualifies based on its awesome one shotters and some par 5s (and a few 4s) that can be had. Lots of 'to and fro' at Old Minch.
Steve,
Yes it does - great greens provide enormous flexibility and reduce the requirement of length.
Tim G,
Very good call and I am particularly happy to see your reference of wide fairways at CB. A few years ago, I received emails with photos that backed up the contention that the fairways were cruelly narrow, lined with thick rough left and right. Hopefully, that was a weather related blip vs. the club making a conscious decision to be a 'world top 100 course.' :-\
Tim M.,
I played with members, so it is $100, carrying your own bag, for a period of time in January and February. Add in Dormie and its dormant fairways and THIS IS THE BEST TIME TO COME TO MOORE COUNTY. I have been invited to X,Y and Z this January and February and I tell everyone, No chance - I can play No. 2 and there is no place in the world I would rather be this time of year.
Mark,
What I should have written is, 'Given that - literally - every modern architect I know has been to No. 2, why are their efforts sterile in comparison?' Would that have made you happy? 8) If you see something, learn from it and the course set-up of Pinehurst No. 2 has been on display for decades; don't know why the pick-up elsewhere is so slow.
James,
I agree and it's why the Ryder Cup should go back there as all kinds of things can occur.
Tom,
Rye has one 'give' hole - the 1st - and then it is a beating thereafter given its very 'tight' and unmerciful par of 68 so ….. I think your courses are a better example of wild swings of fortune. I would have more birdies on No. 2 in one week than I would at Rye in a year. :'(
Peter,
Totally get your point and I would add that Pinehurst No. 2 didn't take its final form until the mid-1930s, and by then steel reigned. I have a beautiful hickory set from Ralph Livingston but the thought of using it at No. 2 is a 'no-go' as the architect built No. 2 with other implements in mind. Congrats to Pinehurst for not moving the tee up on 8, for instance, and calling it/making it a par 4 for the retail player.
Paul,
Given that No. 2 has relatively mundane topography, it is unlikely to WOW the first time player that perhaps in this day and age has played some great golf along big bodies of water. At some point though in the golfer's maturation process, he may come to appreciate that a three foot rise and tight short grass is both more debilitating AND more meaningful from a golf perspective than a dramatic dune 20 times bigger. The Mid Pines mafia is strong here but Mid Pines is also over-seeded this time of year :P and Pinehurst No. 2 is dormant and firm, so even the Mayor of Mid Pines would acknowledge that one course shines now - and the other doesn't.
Ran convinced me to try a trip to the area in February. I have time for 2 rounds, and I've narrowed it to Mid Pines, Tobacco Road, Dormie and #4. Southern Pines is a contender too.
Opinions on which two to prioritize? I haven't played any of them. Thanks for the input.
-
Ryan,
You have chosen well. I recommend your 1st three courses to visitors looking to experience the best of the area if not playing #2.
Mid Pines on the basis its Ross lineage, topography, routing and design. Hard not to walk back to the first hole for another go.
Tobacco Road because it is in a league of its own. Best played with someone familiar with the course for full appreciation.
Dormie is a great course but you have likely played similar C&C courses. Perhaps the best variety of greens in the Sandhills.
#4 needs time to mature.
Southern Pines a fine routing but n to up to the level of your other choices
-
I would go with Mid Pines for sure. Fun, old school Ross layout with some really interesting greens. Easily walkable. Great renovation work.
I loved Dormie when I played it, but that was almost 5 years ago.
Tobacco Road is unique. It's worth a play. But, having played it several times, I'm not all that excited about playing it again. Especially, as I'm not as good as I was right now and I could see myself losing a ton of balls.
So, I would go with #4 as my second choice. I've played "#4" since the late '80s. I'd be really interested to see Hanse's version and what's different about it. I would want to see if they have something that can provide an alternative to #2, because they never really have. And, that for me is why Pinehurst the resort lags behind Bandon, Sand Valley and Streamsong, which all have multiple courses you want to play.
However, my second choice is very personal. If you've never played a Strantz course, then I would probably say play Tobacco Road.
-
Thanks guys, I think it'll be Tobacco Road and Mid Pines with a stay at Pine Crest Inn. I did the Pinehurst resort experience before and did 2 (post reno) , 4 & 8, but was new in my architecture journey and realized I missed a lot.
-
Steve: Good luck with Tobacco Road - should do Pine Needles instead. If you do play TR you must play with someone who has played it before or somehow get hold of a yardage book. And yes, if you tend to spray it bring lots of balls.