Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture Discussion Group => Topic started by: Tim Leahy on January 17, 2019, 04:59:56 AM
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I am watching Euro Tour from Abu Dhabi and the greens look immaculate. What are the best conditioned greens for smoothness and speed that you have ever played? How about a public and a private course.
For me on a public course it was a course north of Sacto in Marysville, CA called Plumas Lake. For years they were known for great greens until the course was flooded and they never came back.
For private LACC North in the 80's were outstanding. I played a college match there and had 2 four putts.
Another private with great greens was Del Rio CC in Modesto south of Sacto. Very flat but perfect condition and fast as lightning.
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Carlton Woods during their Mid-Am invitational. I happened to play with one of the members and he putted it off the green and darn near into the water on one hole.
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Kytaja - Northwest course in Finland whilst playing in Euro Deaf Golf Champs - they were 13 to 14 on the stimp with barely any grass and was so smooth
http://kytajagolf.fi/en/
It has two Thomas McBroom designed courses the other one is Southeast course which is more old fashioned Donald Ross like design whereas the Northwest was more like a Trent Jones design from memory
One of the best golf clubs i have been too and the driving range is massive!
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Old Chatham for a mid-am. Best bermuda (and I don't love bermuda) I've ever putted on. Amazing bathroom, right-sized clubhouse. Lots of great Rees templates with bunkers flanking both sides of the landing areas :)
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Streamsong red and blue - opening weekend. Nobody had played em, marked em up, etc. oh my god! Was 4 jack City!
The valley club - as a guest I happen to be allowed to play during the qualifying round of the men’s club championship around 2013-14. It was their first big event after a regrassing project or something like that and oh my god! ... putted like a demon!
Creek - the days leading up to the closing/restoration... knowing they were gonna be regrassed the water was turned off and oh my death is fast!
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The Farm in Dalton, Georgia. Champion Bermuda that run around 13 for daily member play, and are slowed down for tournaments and outings. I'm not kidding or overestimating.
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A.G.
Not sure Hope Valley greens get to a 13 but they are pretty terrifying when above the hole.
Best I played was Congressional about a month before the 2011 Open. They had re-done the greens for the tournament and they were just getting up to tournament condition. Ball never wavered from the line.
For public, Pine Needles. The greens at Primland pretty darn great too--course gets very little play.
Ira
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I wish the thread title had emphasized firmness as a “best” attribute, but alas....
I would personally rate my own opinion of a “best” green in this order:
1) Firmness
2) Reasonable speed for the design
3) Smoothness
4) Everything else
Last) Color
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There are bunches of courses that can claim to have the best greens. Cypress Point, Shinny, Oakmont are some of the best I have played. They are the usual suspects. Less know course are The Quarry at La Quinta were perfect. They had no blemishes. Sedgefield CC has the best Champion greens around. It seems supers have figured out how to make great greens.
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Nationally, Oakmont. Locally, Butler National but should note that I played Chicago Golf the week of the Ryder Cup and greens rolling at 15. Pain suffering and hilarity!
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I got to play Oakmont a few times so that's an easy one. I was able to play Sebonack two times a few years ago and thought they were right behind Oakmont, it looked like they could have the Open there the next week. Also played TPC Scottsdale the day after the tournament once and my first thought was no wonder the guys make so many putts - it was hard to not hit a perfect putt.
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Believe it or not the fastest greens on the PGA Tour most years are at the CC of Jackson in Mississippi. Cool fall weather plus not much slope allows them to dial up the speeds as much as possible, and they do.
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Public: Forest Dunes, when Jim Bluck was there. Oh my.
Private: Sand Hills on a closing weekend with a lot of wind helping speed things up. So much fun.
The very best greens I’ve ever played on are at St Andrews. They weren’t necessarily the fastest, though they certainly can be(!), but as Uncle Joe mentioned, there are other considerations besides smoothness and speed when discussing the best greens.
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Thus is surely not only terribly subjective but also open to day to day, seasonal, maintenance variences etc. For example, a visit during a period immediately after the greens have been spiked/tined or top dressed etc will likely produce a very different opinion than if someone happened to play the course when the greens are at their optimum.
Firmness and quality of roll are key to me. As to speed, well it’s surely not only slope dependent but also seasonal and grass type, weather/wind dependent and maybe even member/customer dependent as well?
Atb
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Memphis CC hands down. The former super there, Rod Lingle was among those who pioneered Champion Bermuda.
Bogey
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I'll echo Tim Leahy. Back in the day, Plumas Lake was worth a trip to play the fast, smooth greens for a very reasonable price. Nice place, with mature oaks in the heart of the valley. It used to be ranked in Golf Digest's top 10 public courses, a long time ago.
I've played greens that rolled at 15 a couple times. A couple of times at Kinloch in Virginia, and once at Sand Hills. Overall, it's fun. I found that you get yourself in trouble by putting the uphill ones too hard. They roll out much further than expected, and then you're playing defense from 6 feet above the hole.
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For a normal member play day, Myers Park in Charlotte, NC. My first time putting on one of the very new types of bermuda (IDK which kind). With a bit of sanding, they were 13 and absolutely dead smooth. I'm told they had run at 14 the day before, also for regular member play.
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A thread title conflating speed and trueness with "best" in relation to greens makes me shake my head sadly.
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Incredibly, I was at Chechessee Creek club around the 3rd week of January 2017 and the greens were rolling at 13.5 (per Assts in the Pro Shop), smooth and firm. They were really fast - even after 20+ minutes of practice putting prior to the round it took over nine holes to get used to.
My nieces husband who is a caddie at The Ocean Course, Kiawah putted off the front of three greens that round.
The dormant Bermuda from the re-grassing done a few years ago was astonishing. With cool weather, especially at night, drawing the moisture out of the sand based greens really had a profound effect at that time of year. And they were really smooth and at that speed that time of year seemed to have no discernible grain.
Actually, these were the closest I had seen to greens at Merion when they are really healthy during good weather periods and can be FAST with some serious continue.
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Oakmont & The Ocean Course @ Kiawah. I really thing timing played a big part in both these. Oakmont was the fall before the 2007 US Open. Very little growing, fall was dry and they were firm fast & smooth.
With Kiawah it was similar dry fall day where the course was very firm and smooth.
Keep looking for places to match them and haven't seen the. This past year Winged Foot West & Mammoth Dunes were both incredibly good conditions but not close to the others.
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Oakmont.
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Best greens (smoothest and fastest). Tim, I certainly would not gauge any green's quality by either of those measures. The only measure that counts from a golfing point of view trueness (consistency) of result in line and length. On that basis for me it would have to be either Ganton or Lindrick.
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LACC this year.
Butler National back in 2001.
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Best greens I've putted on, with an emphasis on firm, smooth and true surfaces would be Wine Valley and Sand Hills.
Tyler
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Sagebrush. Tara Iti.
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I was amazed at how good the greens were on the sand belt in the tournaments I played there.
Royal Melbourne was crazy fast and considering the traffic late in the day still very true
Kingston Heath were not as fast but man they were nice
I played at he Vines outside Perth two years (one year Mike Clayton won!) and those greens late in the rounds were still amazingly true.
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Best greens (smoothest and fastest). Tim, I certainly would not gauge any green's quality by either of those measures. The only measure that counts from a golfing point of view trueness (consistency) of result in line and length. On that basis for me it would have to be either Ganton or Lindrick.
You’re right, of course. I found myself seduced by my memories of happily struggling on some amped up surfaces. I greatly prefer fun contours and consistent (not punishing) speeds.
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Quail Valley here in Vero Beach in May 2017 in a Palm Beach Co. Golf Assoc. tournament, and then last April at USGA Four-Ball Media Day at Jupiter Hills.
Olde Farm several years ago.
Ozarks National's were superb this past September, especially for a course that wasn't even really open yet.
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Fifteen plus years ago I can still recall the greens at The Ridge at Back Brook in NJ. I vividly remember an above the hole putt look like it had a chance until it passed the hole and took what seemed forever, one excruciatingly slow revolution at a time, until it finally stopped just inches from rolling off the green and down a long hill.
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The Old Course in 2018 the Monday after the Senior British Open. Kept the pins in the Sunday spots.
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Best? Well they wouldn't be the fastest because the "fastest" would be unputtable with good/great architecture and decent hole placements.
i.e. I can't glorify a boring super fast/smooth green by calling it the best.
The best greens I've putted were at Cape Arundel. Smooth and perfectly paced for the interest and severity of the greens.
The more I think of it, I have played many, many events where the greens were incredibly difficult and appropriately firm and fast for the designs. I can't imagine that ANY of them would have been "better" by being faster.Deepdale comes to mind_I remember watching Darrel Kestner(probably the best putter in MET Section history and Head pro there) 4 putt the first hole in a fall event.
I must say it seems like in early every week in the MET Section I'm fortunate enough to play near perfect greens every week. Invariably it ALWAYS seems like the best greens(firm, smooth(all day) and fast) are pure poa.
The fastest I've ever played were at Seawane about 5 years ago(it was shocking how little it took to roll the ball across the greens(which were quite mundane)-it may be just by comparison as there are probably many at that speed now in our silly arms race to neuter interesting greens and hole locations.
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I'll echo Tim Leahy. Back in the day, Plumas Lake was worth a trip to play the fast, smooth greens for a very reasonable price. Nice place, with mature oaks in the heart of the valley. It used to be ranked in Golf Digest's top 10 public courses, a long time ago.
I've played greens that rolled at 15 a couple times. A couple of times at Kinloch in Virginia, and once at Sand Hills. Overall, it's fun. I found that you get yourself in trouble by putting the uphill ones too hard. They roll out much further than expected, and then you're playing defense from 6 feet above the hole.
Glad to hear someone else got to experience Plumas great greens.
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While interning at Friars Head in 2002, I had the chance to visit a classmate at Atlantic GC. We played in the afternoon, after a Pro/Member type event. Those greens were over 13" at 3-4pm, so true and so firm. At the time, I had never seen anything like that. When you consider who is in charge of the agronomy there, you can understand why. BR is truly, one of the best Superintendents in the country.
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Ocean Forest Golf Club weeks leading up to the Jones Cup... kitchen floor type speeds!
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Old town club in late october. The whole course was firm and fast and combined with the rolling land there made for a great round.
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The title of this thread should have been, The fastest and smoothest greens you ever putted.
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Best greens I’ve ever seen have been velvet bentgrass greens at the University of Kentucky’s turfgrass research site!! I mean they looked fake! They rolled true and were just super pleasing to the eye. But, they are not the fastest. Fastest greens I’ve ever played were dormant Bermuda at streamsong red in February of ‘17
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Played Roaring Gap in a hickory tournament a day prior to their member/guest and just the week prior to the course closing for the season. The greens were true and lightening fast. The ground game played like running a ball up across shag carpet onto a wood floor.
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Oakmont on most days is an obvious answer.
Scioto CC right before the 2016 Senior US Open had the greens in immaculate condition. It was still a couple weeks out but it felt like tournament conditions that day.
Seminole the day before their Coleman Invitational... the wind was up that day and the greens were running hot.
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To those that have posted a number on this thread-
Did someone tell you what speed the greens were running or pure speculation? Im always interested in what golfers THINK greens are running at vs whey they are actually running at.
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Chicago Golf Club three days after their Member/Member. Super was on the practice green with me and said they've slowed down since the weekend but were still running 13'8". Immaculate, firm, and unbelievably fast.
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To those that have posted a number on this thread-
Did someone tell you what speed the greens were running or pure speculation? Im always interested in what golfers THINK greens are running at vs whey they are actually running at.
Hi Anthony,
I was told the day I played Kinloch by a member of the greenskeeping staff that the greens were rolling at something like 15' 2". It was over 15. In the case of Sand Hills, I'm making a judgment call based on my previous experience at Kinloch. Maybe they were only running at 14, but for several years Sand Hills had a reputation for letting their greens get really fast.
:D
I've also heard anecdotes about Sebonack greens getting super fast at times.
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To those that have posted a number on this thread-
Did someone tell you what speed the greens were running or pure speculation? Im always interested in what golfers THINK greens are running at vs whey they are actually running at.
Hi Anthony,
I was told the day I played Kinloch by a member of the greenskeeping staff that the greens were rolling at something like 15' 2". It was over 15. In the case of Sand Hills, I'm making a judgment call based on my previous experience at Kinloch. Maybe they were only running at 14, but for several years Sand Hills had a reputation for letting their greens get really fast.
:D
I've also heard anecdotes about Sebonack greens getting super fast at times.
Holy green speed arms race! Stop!
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Ozarks National's were superb this past September, especially for a course that wasn't even really open yet.
Ozarks National(is that a real place?).... conjures up visions of 22 year old curvy interns, multiple mulligans and crooked drives
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To those that have posted a number on this thread-
Did someone tell you what speed the greens were running or pure speculation? Im always interested in what golfers THINK greens are running at vs whey they are actually running at.
Hi Anthony,
I was told the day I played Kinloch by a member of the greenskeeping staff that the greens were rolling at something like 15' 2". It was over 15. In the case of Sand Hills, I'm making a judgment call based on my previous experience at Kinloch. Maybe they were only running at 14, but for several years Sand Hills had a reputation for letting their greens get really fast.
:D
I've also heard anecdotes about Sebonack greens getting super fast at times.
Thanks for the explanation. Sometimes its a real struggle to get golfers to understand what green speeds really are when greens are very undulated or like here, very flat. What some THINK is fast or slow are usually the opposite and leads to a guessing game as to what speeds really are.
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To Pat Burke's point, the overall firmness of the ground on the sand belt courses surprised me. The level of traffic wear and bear spots around Royal Melbourne, coming off tees especially, surprised me. I found it quite refreshing that on a world class golf course, it was OK to show the wear. Pitch marks were hard to find on the green surfaces. Loved it.
To Joe Hancock's point, it's always struck me a difficult achievement of smooth greens without firmness. A course in Joe's hometown hosted PGA section players and to "show off" the course, sped the greens up significantly. The catch was many of the greens were so soft on the surface by late day footprints and spike damage (soft spike, not metal spike) were so bad, even short putts were hit and hope. 1 foot putts could turn into 10 foot putts in a hurry.
I've played Crystal Downs a number of times but always at the end of the season. The greens were firm and very fast. Most know the comment from Fred Muller that he's witnessed someone putt off all 18 greens at some point. Those greens are the smoothest and fastest I've been on although I feel the course would be even more enjoyable without those green speeds.Ken
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Interesting that many replies equate green speed as the measure of a green being “best”. How have we been convinced to believe that green speed is a good thing?
I’m not sure that I understand the use of “firmness” as a quality measure either... Hard green are better than soft?
Personally, I’d consider the trueness of roll to be the measure of a green. My tile kitchen floor is both fast and firm, but I’d not enjoy putting on it.
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I played the Couer D' Alene resort course years ago, back when they used to pour a bunch of money into it and was in immaculate condition.
As I recall it was also fall (sensing a theme here) and the greens were just crazy fast. All of my golf up till then had been on 7-9 stimping courses, so when I played this one, it was such a tough adjustment. I don't know how the math works out, but I vividly recall forcing myself to hit 8-10 foot putts like they were 4-5 feet putts...
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This thread seems to have an element of the Monty Python Yorkshireman sketch! (Sic) :)
Atb
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This thread seems to have an element of the Monty Python Yorkshireman sketch! (Sic) :)
Atb
I am a high end private club. My greens roll smoothly all year round and stimp at 20. I look down on both the member's club and the muni.
I am a mid level member's club. My greens roll smoothly all summer long and stimp at 10. I look up to the high end private club but look down on the muni.
I am a municipal club. I know my place. My greens bobble all year round and I do not own a stimp meter. ;D
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JC+RB+RC
:) :) :)
Atb
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JC+RB+RC
:) :) :)
Atb
:)
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In Myrtle Beach: the Dunes
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It has been a while since I played either of the following courses, but my choices for the best (and among the fastest) greens I have played are:
Oakmont
Royal Melbourne West
Luftness New
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Based on the title, I'd have to say Royal County Down two weeks before the Irish Open a few years back. They were very smooth and true, but also lightning fast. I do remember on the eighth green in a mild breeze that my ball was oscillating on the green. Downwind, I genuinely don't know how anyone holds the 7th green there. It's a great little hole on a magical course.
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I have an issue with the assumption of the title...
I have played in a very popular Canadian Pro-Am event a few times. One of the years, the greens were so fast that the course became unplayable for all amateurs and most of the pros. Fastest does not equal best.
Best is when conditioning emphasizes the architecture.
Excessive speed will undermine great architecture.
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Private - Sand Hills Golf Club
Public - Wild Horse Golf Club
Both are immaculate.
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I have an issue with the assumption of the title...
I have played in a very popular Canadian Pro-Am event a few times. One of the years, the greens were so fast that the course became unplayable for all amateurs and most of the pros. Fastest does not equal best.
Best is when conditioning emphasizes the architecture.
Excessive speed will undermine great architecture.
The title isnt best fastest greens. Smooth greens can be slow and for my taste not the best greens. Fast greens can be too fast and not smooth therefore not the best greens for my taste. Most golfers I know consider the best greens both smooth & fast upto a point. Now best green architecture is a different subject.
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This thread seems to have an element of the Monty Python Yorkshireman sketch! (Sic) :)
Atb
I am a high end private club. My greens roll smoothly all year round and stimp at 20. I look down on both the member's club and the muni.
I am a mid level member's club. My greens roll smoothly all summer long and stimp at 10. I look up to the high end private club but look down on the muni.
I am a municipal club. I know my place. My greens bobble all year round and I do not own a stimp meter. ;D
;D
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I am amazed how fast some of the ultradwarf Bermuda greens get after a cold snap, when they aren't growing but they're still being rolled. I first saw this at Indian Creek and later at Streamsong.
However the absolute fastest greens I've ever putted on were at Chicago Golf Club in the fall a few years ago. Again, a cold snap stopped them growing while they were super tight, and they kept rolling them; they were so fast the greenkeeper couldn't get a decent stimp reading. It was easy to chip back and forth across the green pads and off the other side.
I would not want to play in conditions like that very often, but just once, it was fun.
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With the fortunate experiences I've had with golf courses, I don't think I can recall one set of fabulous greens as "smoother, truer" than another; it's no great feat for greens that are rolling in the 12+ to also be smooth and true. Show me greens that roll at 6.5 - 8.5 that are ALSO smooth and true...that's rare.
In any event, I can only take this question, as most have, to be about the frightening extremely fast variety you remember for a long time...
Winged Foot East (ca. 2011-12). The Anderson Memorial... had to be pushing 14 in places and were still low 12s much later in the day... What a remarkable brutality; every chip and putt had to be measured like a heart surgeon. Putts took 20 and 30 and 35 seconds to come to rest...and as usual the most difficult pins on such greens are right in the middle of the surface, where 7 or 8 of them were stationed. With winds spiking to 10-12 and perfect summer championship conditions, that course (played a whisper under 7000) would've produced every bit the keen woe the West does during Open time.
Siwanoy: For the 3-day M/G and the Ol' Buddy calcutta in the fall, Siwanoy under different regimes and improving conditions was maintained at the very edge of ridiculous... sometimes with that direct intention stated upfront...the most ringing example I recall of this was the signature uphill par 3 13th, a thin deck, sloped back to the tee, with a wicked thumbprint interior contours... Like Olympic's 18th some years ago...right back past your feet if you missed an uphill putt...to almost any pin, and being past the pin had the effect of being in a hazard.
Stanwich: In so many ways, this course (which I never hear boo about these days though it was celebrated and adored in local and national reputation into the 90s and had a mid-am in 04-05) was the local king of fast greens... used to be if an approach ball stayed in the fringe, and didn't tumble out, you were screwed. Though I have played it many times since, when the club renovated/refurbished to USGA greens in the early 00s, they "lost' something on that title...even at over 12 they are no longer out n out demonic to play... but there was a time...
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With the fortunate experiences I've had with golf courses, I don't think I can recall one set of fabulous greens as "smoother, truer" than another; it's no great feat for greens that are rolling in the 12+ to also be smooth and true. Show me greens that roll at 6.5 - 8.5 that are ALSO smooth and true...that's rare.
In any event, I can only take this question, as most have, to be about the frightening extremely fast variety you remember for a long time...
Winged Foot East (ca. 2011-12). The Anderson Memorial... had to be pushing 14 in places and were still low 12s much later in the day... What a remarkable brutality; every chip and putt had to be measured like a heart surgeon. Putts took 20 and 30 and 35 seconds to come to rest...and as usual the most difficult pins on such greens are right in the middle of the surface, where 7 or 8 of them were stationed. With winds spiking to 10-12 and perfect summer championship conditions, that course (played a whisper under 7000) would've produced every bit the keen woe the West does during Open time.
Siwanoy: For the 3-day M/G and the Ol' Buddy calcutta in the fall, Siwanoy under different regimes and improving conditions was maintained at the very edge of ridiculous... sometimes with that direct intention stated upfront...the most ringing example I recall of this was the signature uphill par 3 13th, a thin deck, sloped back to the tee, with a wicked thumbprint interior contours... Like Olympic's 18th some years ago...right back past your feet if you missed an uphill putt...to almost any pin, and being past the pin had the effect of being in a hazard.
Stanwich: In so many ways, this course (which I never hear boo about these days though it was celebrated and adored in local and national reputation into the 90s and had a mid-am in 04-05) was the local king of fast greens... used to be if an approach ball stayed in the fringe, and didn't tumble out, you were screwed. Though I have played it many times since, when the club renovated/refurbished to USGA greens in the early 00s, they "lost' something on that title...even at over 12 they are no longer out n out demonic to play... but there was a time...
VK-It’s been a while since I played Stanwich but the greens as you mentioned back in the day were insanely fast. Too fast!!!!!
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LACC and The Preserve for me. I played Calusa last year and they were also 13-14 on the stimp (I was told). Personally I think it's barely golf when it gets that fast.
Day in and day out, Tedesco has unreal smooth and fast greens...but even topping them out at 11-11.5 for the 2013 Mass Amateur was borderline, as we have a couple of greens that have like 3% pinnable area when that fast.
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Oakmont for the obvious choice
Next Choices were:
Trump International in West Palm Beach
&
Tradition Golf Club in Palm Desert
All were nearly immaculate
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Oakmont day in day out.
Deepdale was something too.
Grandfather was impressive too. The caddy was telling me those greens are the fastest in the country 51 out of 52 weeks a year.
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Oakmont day in day out.
Deepdale was something too.
Grandfather was impressive too. The caddy was telling me those greens are the fastest in the country 51 out of 52 weeks a year.
Let me guess the other week is when the pros play those scorching fast greens at Pebble in February! ;)
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I was very surprised :o to see the best greens ever at Mazagan golf club in Morocco 🇲🇦 on paspalum platinum grass.
But my favorite are the Old course ( St Andrews) greens because of the fescue grass texture !
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Seminole a few years ago on a January day. And the wind wasn't blowing, thank goodness.
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Skokie just north of Chicago in late June 2016...about 2 weeks after they reopened having completed a renovation. I would figure out a line and then look for some mark or blemish to aim at...but there were none!
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Skokie just north of Chicago in late June 2016...about 2 weeks after they reopened having completed a renovation. I would figure out a line and then look for some mark or blemish to aim at...but there were none!
Having played with you elsewhere in 2016, I call BS. You couldn't see any mark, blemish, or much of the hole then!
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With the fortunate experiences I've had with golf courses, I don't think I can recall one set of fabulous greens as "smoother, truer" than another; it's no great feat for greens that are rolling in the 12+ to also be smooth and true. Show me greens that roll at 6.5 - 8.5 that are ALSO smooth and true...that's rare.
In any event, I can only take this question, as most have, to be about the frightening extremely fast variety you remember for a long time...
Winged Foot East (ca. 2011-12). The Anderson Memorial... had to be pushing 14 in places and were still low 12s much later in the day... What a remarkable brutality; every chip and putt had to be measured like a heart surgeon. Putts took 20 and 30 and 35 seconds to come to rest...and as usual the most difficult pins on such greens are right in the middle of the surface, where 7 or 8 of them were stationed. With winds spiking to 10-12 and perfect summer championship conditions, that course (played a whisper under 7000) would've produced every bit the keen woe the West does during Open time.
Siwanoy: For the 3-day M/G and the Ol' Buddy calcutta in the fall, Siwanoy under different regimes and improving conditions was maintained at the very edge of ridiculous... sometimes with that direct intention stated upfront...the most ringing example I recall of this was the signature uphill par 3 13th, a thin deck, sloped back to the tee, with a wicked thumbprint interior contours... Like Olympic's 18th some years ago...right back past your feet if you missed an uphill putt...to almost any pin, and being past the pin had the effect of being in a hazard.
Stanwich: In so many ways, this course (which I never hear boo about these days though it was celebrated and adored in local and national reputation into the 90s and had a mid-am in 04-05) was the local king of fast greens... used to be if an approach ball stayed in the fringe, and didn't tumble out, you were screwed. Though I have played it many times since, when the club renovated/refurbished to USGA greens in the early 00s, they "lost' something on that title...even at over 12 they are no longer out n out demonic to play... but there was a time...
I wasn't planning to post on this topic but instead just lurk and nod quietly in agreement at many of these posts but this one instantly jumped out to me........
I couldn't agree more with the comment about Winged Foot East during the Anderson Memorial. I played in it a couple of times in the late 2000's and while my partner and I agreed that WFW was the harder test overall, the greens on WFE we just ferocious.....and the comment about the hole locations in the middle of the greens being the toughest is 100% correct as well. I can remember watching what I thought were well struck shots on holes like 8 and 9 that hit close to the hole and just slowly trickled into a corner of the green, leaving you with a 40 foot putt that broke in four different directions....and that you knew before the ball was even halfway to the hole that it wasn't going to finish anywhere close to the hole. Factoring in the overall difficulty of those two courses on any given day, then combining that with the presentation of the courses for that tournament, on top of the insane green speeds, made it easily the toughest test of golf that I have ever experienced.
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Skokie just north of Chicago in late June 2016...about 2 weeks after they reopened having completed a renovation. I would figure out a line and then look for some mark or blemish to aim at...but there were none!
Having played with you elsewhere in 2016, I call BS. You couldn't see any mark, blemish, or much of the hole then!
Slapper---That said, it was wonderful to play with you at Bedminster New and Somerset Hills four months ago...and even more fun (and easier) to take $10 from you during our match at Somerset. Guess you could not even beat a blind old man ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
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With the fortunate experiences I've had with golf courses, I don't think I can recall one set of fabulous greens as "smoother, truer" than another; it's no great feat for greens that are rolling in the 12+ to also be smooth and true. Show me greens that roll at 6.5 - 8.5 that are ALSO smooth and true...that's rare.
In any event, I can only take this question, as most have, to be about the frightening extremely fast variety you remember for a long time...
Winged Foot East (ca. 2011-12). The Anderson Memorial... had to be pushing 14 in places and were still low 12s much later in the day... What a remarkable brutality; every chip and putt had to be measured like a heart surgeon. Putts took 20 and 30 and 35 seconds to come to rest...and as usual the most difficult pins on such greens are right in the middle of the surface, where 7 or 8 of them were stationed. With winds spiking to 10-12 and perfect summer championship conditions, that course (played a whisper under 7000) would've produced every bit the keen woe the West does during Open time.
I wasn't planning to post on this topic but instead just lurk and nod quietly in agreement at many of these posts but this one instantly jumped out to me........
and the comment about the hole locations in the middle of the greens being the toughest is 100% correct as well. I can remember watching what I thought were well struck shots on holes like 8 and 9 that hit close to the hole and just slowly trickled into a corner of the green, leaving you with a 40 foot putt that broke in four different directions.... Factoring in the overall difficulty of those two courses on any given day, then combining that with the presentation of the courses for that tournament, on top of the insane green speeds, made it easily the toughest test of golf that I have ever experienced.
Toughest I've seen until Day 1 of this years USOp at Shinnecock... and I'm glad you brought up #8 with a middle pin...holy jesus, it would be hard as a 30 yard par 3...
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USA - Oakmont, Cal Club
AUS - Kingston Heath, Royal Melbourne
Links - Hoylake, Deal
Asia - Nine Bridges
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USA - Oakmont, Cal Club
AUS - Kingston Heath, Royal Melbourne
Links - Hoylake, Deal
Asia - Nine Bridges
Just played Kingston Heath today and RM yesterday. RM to me surpasses the greens at KH by a significant margin. I liked KH, however RM is kept in better condition and faster.
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I have an issue with the assumption of the title...
I have played in a very popular Canadian Pro-Am event a few times. One of the years, the greens were so fast that the course became unplayable for all amateurs and most of the pros. Fastest does not equal best.
Best is when conditioning emphasizes the architecture.
Excessive speed will undermine great architecture.
Thank you Ian for that comment.
I lost my cool just reading the title.
In my opinion, the best greens I have ever played can NOT be defined by Fast or Smooth.