Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture Discussion Group => Topic started by: John Kavanaugh on November 23, 2018, 03:03:16 PM
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It's a battle we all lose. How about his work?
A tour of True Blue. https://www.truebluegolf.com/scorecard/
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I’m not sure what the topic is here. Yes, he’s unfortunately passed on, but what’s the topic? How his courses are holding up only a few years later? It hasn’t been that long.
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Mike sadly passed away 13 years ago. It's not too soon.
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I have several friends at Bulls Bay and they are still enamored.
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Have played none though Tobacco Road looks interesting....
How do people generally rank Mike Strantz courses?
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Look at the 3rd hole and ask yourself....Really?!?
https://www.truebluegolf.com/scorecard/
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John,
I have been wanting to start a topic on TIME as it relates to golf course architecture for a while now. I don't mean to hijack your thread but it really moved me to send a reply.
When I saw Bulls Bay and the work he had done at MPCC I realized how talented Mike really was. Creativity, Beauty, Strategy, all were a part of the experiences I got out of each of these courses. I tell anyone who ask's about his work, to go see these two courses, they will knock your socks off. Now, someone could critique some of his holes but overall, the presentation is supreme. Sight lines, correct and most of all, his attention to the little details, superb!! He spent considerable "Time" on site
I agree with Terry, his friends are enjoying some of Mike's best work.
I had a really great conversation with Riley Johns on this topic, we just started to scratch the surface when we ended our conversation early. Riley had asked about some of the things I had learned over the years, and one of my answers was, how time played a role in my learning curve.
I have been talking to Andy about having a discussion about Time and its relationship to Golf design, I hope we get a chance to do it.
Good Topic John, I will check in to see where this subject goes.
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Have played none though Tobacco Road looks interesting....
How do people generally rank Mike Strantz courses?
They are ALL interesting, and then some!
Tobacco Road is absolutely unique; a work of art that happens to be a golf course. Two weeks ago I played a CGA four ball there; 43 degrees, double digit wind, drizzle all day, cart path only, and I shot a million. And had the time of my life. I just love the place, and go every chance I get.
And since it's the holidays, I'll pitch it again. Mike sketched and drew his holes and then built them; the Strantz family sells prints of Mike's drawings of various holes at his courses; some are pen and ink, some are watercolors. They are suitable for framing, and a very cool Xmas gift for a golfer. They are good enough that my wife, who is an artist herself, allows three of them to hang in the den. Some of the proceeds of your purchase goes to the Hollings Cancer Center in Charleston, where Mike underwent treatment. Give it some thought.
And my favorite 36 hole day is True Blue in the morning, then lunch and an afternoon round at Caledonia. There were never two courses more different, and they're across the street from each other and done by the same guy. He was truly an artist.
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Look at the 3rd hole and ask yourself....Really?!?
https://www.truebluegolf.com/scorecard/ (https://www.truebluegolf.com/scorecard/)
1) The people at True Blue and Caledonia are really really nice. They were completely supportive of my "Caddie Camp" - https://www.instagram.com/p/BdXeiZ0FIf9/ (https://www.instagram.com/p/BdXeiZ0FIf9/)
2) I know how they "softened" True Blue, but it is an enormously fun course to play, last year. My general rule is to move up one set of tees on a Stranz course and you will have an enormously fun round.
3) Stranz did not have the clout to say, "Screw it, no cart paths." Thus, he has some awkward walks from tee to green, but the holes are very fun to play.
Missing Bob Huntley. He was very old school, but he loved the Stranz Course at MPCC. So did I.
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I'll be in the minority, I think, on how Tobacco Road actually plays.
I think it's a great course to see once or twice. Get lots of photos. Enjoy the heck out of it. Even be goaded into going for a lot of stuff you shouldn't. But the second or third or at least by the fourth time you play there, the course should reveal itself to be pretty simple. It's a pretty easy course to play. It's wide, and if you can resist being coerced into taking on more than you could, very scoreable.
I'd elaborate, but I don't think this is the topic John had in mind.
I love Caledonia. I love True Blue. Those are the only Strantz courses I've played. I have heard Tot Hill Farm is "Tobacco Road on steroids."
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Caledonia and Bulls Bay are both tremendous courses. I'm not a big fan of True Blue, but I've only played it once and maybe I was just having a bad day. I haven't played any of his other courses, although I've heard a lot of hate for both Tobacco Road (people here seem to love it, though) and Tot Hill Farm.
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JC - re your post, if you don't mind a semi-aside:
The Greeks had two terms for (and conceptions of) Time -- Kairos was used to refer to the natural/proper time for an event or action (including internal subjective events like the time it takes to make a major -- and wise -- decision)...and they recognized that Kairos didn't always align with or fit into the demands of the other term/conception, ie Chronos, from where we get the word chronological and that refers to 'clock time', to the passing of time day after day and year after year.
And the Greeks made this distinction, being the ancient Greeks, because they wanted to distinguish the ever fleeting and ever changing things of this world (Chronos) from the internal processes involved in something like making a major decision (Kairos), which they saw as so deeply a personal/subjective process, one so tied to the individual human 'soul', that for them it qualified as eternal.
Which is to say: I think the kind of 'time' you're talking about, the kind of time an architect might take in letting the site show/tell him what kind of course it wants to be and in weighing so many different options/possibilities because he cares very much about doing his very best, is Kairos. Whereas John seems to be talking more about Chronos, the fleeting changing tastes over the years that might make what was once popular and 'good' back then considered less so today....or the same kind of time that might make a client ask an architect to hurry up, to take less time.
I suppose that's why there are tensions and conflicts sometimes between the client and the architect, i.e. because one is living in/on Chronos and the things of this world, while the other is trying to honour Kairos, and to put (golf in) The Kingdom first and foremost.
Two very valid approaches to/understanding of Time, of course -- which are also two very valid understandings of/value-systems for life; but for my tastes and temperament Kairos is where it's at, and what it's all about, and what I'm most interested in.
Peter
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Barney,
I can only guess you're bored hiding in the den from everyone who came over for the Thanksgiving Holidays. While I've only played one of his courses, MPCC, it was an absolute delight and treat. TR also remains very high on my to play list among his other East Coast courses...
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Hardly bored. Started this thread in a cab leaving the Caps/Red Wings. Golf is at best the mortar between my bricks.
I just don't get why Mike gets a pass on "artistry". The routing of Tobacco Road is missing a hole. A hole does not an ear make.
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I have only played two of Mike's courses; MPCC and Caledonia. I loved both courses. I plan to see Tobacco Road next August and I'm already looking forward to that round. The day I was fortunate enough to spend at MPCC is one of my five best days in golf.
Granted, I have limited experience on his courses. But, what I have seen has been imprinted in my memory. His work seems to stir strong emotions (both for and against) and to me, that is always a sign of a risk taker, a boundary pusher, a guy ahead of his time. Mike was a true artist.
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I have only played two of Mike's courses; MPCC and Caledonia. I loved both courses. I plan to see Tobacco Road next August and I'm already looking forward to that round. The day I was fortunate enough to spend at MPCC is one of my five best days in golf.
Granted, I have limited experience on his courses. But, what I have seen has been imprinted in my memory. His work seems to stir strong emotions (both for and against) and to me, that is always a sign of a risk taker, a boundary pusher, a guy ahead of his time. Mike was a true artist.
Jim,
What do you mean by saying Mike was a guy ahead of his time? Is anyone building work like his now or are we still waiting?
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Mike’s courses are bold and beŕutiful. As an artist he built courses where you are as likely to get a great view looking backward as forward. Bulls Bay and Caledonia are tributes to his extrodinary vision. Tobacco Road is the ultimate strategic/heroic course and a prelude to the sandscape courses in the Pinehurst/ Southern Pines area. And who else would have taken on the property at Tothill Farm. I have only played Stonehouse and Royal New Kent once 9 or so years ago but recall being impressed with a number of the holes (look forward to returning next year after new ownership). As foras Mike Strantz and time, I only wish that he had more of it.
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Look at the 3rd hole and ask yourself....Really?!?
https://www.truebluegolf.com/scorecard/ (https://www.truebluegolf.com/scorecard/)
My one and only hole-in-one was on the third hole. About 20 years ago. 9 iron from about 150. The sun was directly in my eyes so I didn't know it was in the hole until I walked by the hole. Since I didn't see my ball on the green I thought they ball went in the water.
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The influence of Pete Dye can be seen in his draw/fade par 4s.
His use of short par 3s with long narrow greens is interesting and seems to work well.
I really like his par 5s - a regular hole is one shaped like a question mark that rewards placement of the tee shot near an internal hazard as much as distance off the tee.
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I have only played Caledonia and True Blue, thus I'm not a Strantz expert. I was supposed to play Tobacco Road and Tot Hill Farm this summer but plans changed. I think our very own Tim Gavrich wrote a wonderful catalogue of Mike's career and properties he touched both as an apprentice under Tom Fazio and on his own.
https://www.golfadvisor.com/articles/the-mike-strantz-golf-courses-you-had-no-idea-existed
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I'll be in the minority, I think, on how Tobacco Road actually plays.
I think it's a great course to see once or twice. Get lots of photos. Enjoy the heck out of it. Even be goaded into going for a lot of stuff you shouldn't. But the second or third or at least by the fourth time you play there, the course should reveal itself to be pretty simple. It's a pretty easy course to play. It's wide, and if you can resist being coerced into taking on more than you could, very scoreable.
I'd elaborate, but I don't think this is the topic John had in mind.
I love Caledonia. I love True Blue. Those are the only Strantz courses I've played. I have heard Tot Hill Farm is "Tobacco Road on steroids."
Eric,
Tot Hill isn't Tobacco Road on steroids; nothing is. Tot Hill is on a much different site in the Uwharrie Mountains, rather than the sand hills, and while there are commonalities with all of Mike's other courses, such as tee shots that are visually intimidating but into enormous landing areas, the terrain and flow of the land is so different that it's hard to compare the two. Of the two, I think most golfers would consider Tobacco Road to be the more difficult AND the more exciting, but Tot Hill is great.
The critical key to playing Strantz courses, as has been mentioned, is to get to the correct tees. At Tobacco Road, for instance, the Plow tees, which is the third set of tees, are 5886 yds, which a lot of players scoff at. But the slope rating from those tees is 145. The next set of tees is 5302, with a slope rating of 136; you get the idea. True Blue is very much like this as well. Players who don't pay attention to this don't necessarily play well, and we all know what that means in terms of how golfers view a course.
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I think Mike's work may struggle over the long haul because of the artistic nature of the designs....meaning money and attention to detail to retain the original vision. Ironically, this artist side is likely how Mike thought his work would survive. I sure hope I am wrong and the next generation see fit to maintain Mike's original intentions because Tobacco Road was a serious eye opener for me...so too was Bulls Bay. Perhaps The Road was ahead of its time as we are now seeing more emphasis on fun...which may bring Mike's name to the forefront once again...for sure I never laughed or smiled more than on my games around The Road. On another level, Mike's work touched too many people to completely disappear and that is very clear when we see what has happened around Pinehurst with renovations. Mike's impact is quite evident.
Ciao
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I think Mike's work may struggle over the log haul because of the artistic nature of the designs....meaning money and attention to detail to retain the original vision. Ironically, this artist side is likely how Mike thought his work would survive. I sure hope I am wrong and the next generation see fit to maintain the Mike's original intentions because Tobacco Road was a serious eye opener for me...so too was Bulls Bay. Perhaps The Road was ahead of its time as we are now seeing more emphasis on fun...which may bring Mike's name to the forefront once again...for sure I never laughed or smiled more than on my games around The Road. On another level, Mike's work touched too many people to completely disappear and that is very clear when we see what has happened around around Pinehurst with renovations.
Ciao
Sean,
Points well taken for Mike's work, and really ALL GCA. What's happened at Royal New Kent and Stonehouse are cautionary tales.
I will say that Mark Stewart and the other principals at Tobacco Road are in it for the long haul and I think consider themselves "stewards" of Mike's work there. Mark is as personally invested in that land as you could be; his whole life has been in the area and connected to that site, long before it was a golf course. Next time you're there, look him up and introduce yourself; you'll thoroughly enjoy talking to him about the course, about Strantz, and about golf in general.
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Look at the 3rd hole and ask yourself....Really?!?
https://www.truebluegolf.com/scorecard/ (https://www.truebluegolf.com/scorecard/)
My one and only hole-in-one was on the third hole. About 20 years ago. 9 iron from about 150. The sun was directly in my eyes so I didn't know it was in the hole until I walked by the hole. Since I didn't see my ball on the green I thought they ball went in the water.
Matt,
That is a great story. Congrats. So, because of the nature of the design did you hit a provisional before you walked all the way to the hole? It can be presumptive to assume you are in the hole when faced with a rear entry. Or is the entire green staked red?
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John -
By saying Mike was ahead of his time, I think I was trying to say what Sean said; that his courses were built for fun. Fun seems to be one of the major driving forces behind golf courses that are developed today. I'm not sure that was the prevailing wisdom when Mike designed Caledonia, back in 1993.
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Could Strantz be called a poor mans Jim Engh? I've always had fun playing a Jim Engh course.
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Pete Pallotta
Thank you, the notion that the two times are different is true but I think that the term TIME is interwoven in golf course design. Was Mike ahead of his time, were his first golf courses quickly dismissed by some as too bold, as Mike evolved did his true artistry and the finer nuances of his golf courses like MPCC become more easily understood?
I appreciate your efforts in the descriptions of Greek Time, I think they are a part of what I have been wanting to discuss further. I just found that John K's posting was timely and that only over time the value of talking about Mikes courses seem to now resonate in GC Architecture circles.
Alister Mackenzies time line is complete. Coore and Crenshaw's contribution to the world of design is still evolving and only time will tell what legacy they will leave on all of us.
So, it my opinion Time not only plays a role in the evolution of a single design it also plays a role in the evolution of many designs, we are now in the era of very natural looking layouts, a far departure from the 70 and 80s manufactured look.
Mammoth Dunes, Sand Valley are both wonderfully done, were Stonehouse and Royal New Kent way ahead of the times?
What will the next evolution in golf course design bring us, only TIME will tell!
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Could Strantz be called a poor mans Jim Engh? I've always had fun playing a Jim Engh course.
Reynolds Creek Club is the only Engh course I've played, but it's also the only course I've played other than Tobacco Road that is a real and earnest challenge to some core GCA conventions (Streamsong Black also does this, though in a different way), particularly about the relationship between where an off-line shot lands and where it ends up, and how courses should generally look. Tobacco Road is the more important work because it came first and is accessible by all.
There may be some elements of Victoria National that you enjoy because of Mike Strantz.
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I can't deny that Tobacco Rd. and Victoria National were both built on the cusp of a new world. 2001 changed everything.
it's no small compliment to consider that Tobacco Rd. may have been the start of one movement while Victoria was the end of another.
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Whichever of Mike’s courses remain in 2050 will be more highly regarded than they are today...
Maintenance demands are likely to neuter them all to some extent but those best preserved will shine because they’re unique and really good...especially as walking is less required.
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Whichever of Mike’s courses remain in 2050 will be more highly regarded than they are today...
Maintenance demands are likely to neuter them all to some extent but those best preserved will shine because they’re unique and really good...especially as walking is less required.
So you believe that in the future walking will be seen as even more gausche than today? That should benefit Strantz's legacy. I know that when I showed up at Tobacco Rd. with a caddie I was seriously WTF'ed.
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Let’s put it this way, do you think he thought about walkability when he designed Tobacco Road or Royal New Kent? Neither do I.
I’m assuming your caddy was WTF’ing you big time pretty early in that round...jesus.
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I'll be in the minority, I think, on how Tobacco Road actually plays.
I think it's a great course to see once or twice. Get lots of photos. Enjoy the heck out of it. Even be goaded into going for a lot of stuff you shouldn't. But the second or third or at least by the fourth time you play there, the course should reveal itself to be pretty simple. It's a pretty easy course to play.
Keep in mind, pro, that you are a pro, pro. The rest of us are not.We don't think nor execute like you.
If ever I travel to the sandhills, I play ToeRoad, Mid Pines, Dormie (if accessible) and Southern Pines. Those are standards, as they are brilliant.
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It's a battle we all lose. How about his work?
A tour of True Blue. https://www.truebluegolf.com/scorecard/ (https://www.truebluegolf.com/scorecard/)
I love that JK has embraced technology and will soon be sharing photos from courses he has played. That's what I read into "A tour of True Blue" In all seriousness, I think that we will lose that sh!!tty course in Williamsburg, but we should keep TR, RNK, BB, MPCCS, C, TB and that is one hell of a six-pack. I love Strantz. I believe that his courses will stand the test of time. If not for the final three holes at THF, I would love that course. It seems like someone dropped a trio of boring holes onto the end of that course. No idea how that happened. The land is certainly malleable enough to have created something unique.
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I don't get the anger. Upon doing a bit of research I see that Golfweek named Strantz as one of the top ten architects of all time. This was the year 2000. Who were the other nine?
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If there's one thing where a little time would have probably assisted in Mike Strantz's legacy it's in construction and engineering.
To a tee, the "dirt guys" see Tobacco Road or Tot Hill Farm as utter disasters of drainage.
I haven't played any others so can't comment.
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Kyle, while I haven't had that conversation with any "dirt guys", that type of critique is one I expect to clean up for him...I think we'd all be foolish to assume a course on opening day should, will be, it's lasting legacy.
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Kyle, while I haven't had that conversation with any "dirt guys", that type of critique is one I expect to clean up for him...I think we'd all be foolish to assume a course on opening day should, will be, it's lasting legacy.
I think what Kyle may be alluding to is that there are designs that utilize drainage vs. designs that are dependant upon drainage. Think of it this way: If there is a swale that is slopes to a pond 200 feet away from the center of the fairway, an architect may chose to capture some of that water in a drain so the surface water doesn’t have to run so far. Conversely, another architect may chose to build a big bowl, guaranteeing the water has to go in a drain. The difference is on multiple levels, not the least of which all engineered drain systems have a shelf life...they will fail at some point. Maintaining natural drainage patterns guarantees an “out”.
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It is often true that very artistic designers are weaker at drainage engineering, and vice versa. Even just considering the architecture (in the real world, you can't) I love Strantz courses, but just the chatter I hear from good players is they suffer a bit in playability factors. Examples include his wildly shaped greens, as players seem to favor something more traditional there, even if the perimeters of them are vastly different than seen elsewhere.
Long term, I feel that type of thing will contribute to keeping them as cult courses, revered by a few. His early death would probably contribute to that as well.
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Jeff - is “playability factors” code for “fairness?”
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If there's one thing where a little time would have probably assisted in Mike Strantz's legacy it's in construction and engineering.
To a tee, the "dirt guys" see Tobacco Road or Tot Hill Farm as utter disasters of drainage.
I haven't played any others so can't comment.
I haven't been to TR in some time, but I certainly thought the course was too wet. I put much of that down to heavy watering, though one time I could see trapped puddles after a rainy day...I was a bit surprised. I am told the course is kept much drier...I assume this is down to less watering. Being on sand, can the shaping of TR be sort of anti-drainage? Won't nature do its thing fairly quickly anyway?
Ciao
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Jeff - is “playability factors” code for “fairness?”
Not really, IMHO. Or put it this way, they like targets they can play to, and will accept all the punishment in the world if they miss. If the target is goofy - like too narrow for the shot, they won't like it. See the recent thread on every shot counts, there is a statistical size they need to be to reasonably be hit.
Now, that said, not all Strantz greens are wildly shaped, but my thought is just a few might be enough to turn raters off over the long term. As some others have noted, perhaps MS courses are ones that will have more trouble staying preserved. At least in my experience, wild and artistic, but hard to play or maintain features eventually get altered at all but the most iconic courses. Given some of his courses have already sold, etc., I don't think they are iconic enough in the biz (outside of architecture buffs like us).
As always, I could be wrong....in fact, based on history, probably am!
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Kyle, while I haven't had that conversation with any "dirt guys", that type of critique is one I expect to clean up for him...I think we'd all be foolish to assume a course on opening day should, will be, it's lasting legacy.
I think what Kyle may be alluding to is that there are designs that utilize drainage vs. designs that are dependant upon drainage. Think of it this way: If there is a swale that is slopes to a pond 200 feet away from the center of the fairway, an architect may chose to capture some of that water in a drain so the surface water doesn’t have to run so far. Conversely, another architect may chose to build a big bowl, guaranteeing the water has to go in a drain. The difference is on multiple levels, not the least of which all engineered drain systems have a shelf life...they will fail at some point. Maintaining natural drainage patterns guarantees an “out”.
Thanks Joe...so I'm clear, we're saying those two courses (at least) were built without enough "out"?
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Strantz’ SC courses have settled in very nicely. True Blue was softened a bit a couple of years after it opened, but I don’t see any issues going forward. Caledonia and Bulls Bay are solidly fixed in their presentation. All three are maturing just as one would hope.
I’ve heard about drainage issues at TR , but have not experienced it personally. I did notice that they had installed very wide narrow drains across the front of the first green which were in the line of play. Didn’t like that too much.
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The drainage criticism I have heard were about not using natural land flow to remove water rather incorporating large central bowl areas to drain the course. While this is true and not approved of by some purists it seems to me that this was all in keeping with his design philosophy for TR wherein offline shots funnelled toward the middle of the fairway thereby making the course play easier than it looked.
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JC - re your post, if you don't mind a semi-aside:
The Greeks had two terms for (and conceptions of) Time -- Kairos was used to refer to the natural/proper time for an event or action (including internal subjective events like the time it takes to make a major -- and wise -- decision)...and they recognized that Kairos didn't always align with or fit into the demands of the other term/conception, ie Chronos, from where we get the word chronological and that refers to 'clock time', to the passing of time day after day and year after year.
And the Greeks made this distinction, being the ancient Greeks, because they wanted to distinguish the ever fleeting and ever changing things of this world (Chronos) from the internal processes involved in something like making a major decision (Kairos), which they saw as so deeply a personal/subjective process, one so tied to the individual human 'soul', that for them it qualified as eternal.
Which is to say: I think the kind of 'time' you're talking about, the kind of time an architect might take in letting the site show/tell him what kind of course it wants to be and in weighing so many different options/possibilities because he cares very much about doing his very best, is Kairos. Whereas John seems to be talking more about Chronos, the fleeting changing tastes over the years that might make what was once popular and 'good' back then considered less so today....or the same kind of time that might make a client ask an architect to hurry up, to take less time.
I suppose that's why there are tensions and conflicts sometimes between the client and the architect, i.e. because one is living in/on Chronos and the things of this world, while the other is trying to honour Kairos, and to put (golf in) The Kingdom first and foremost.
Two very valid approaches to/understanding of Time, of course -- which are also two very valid understandings of/value-systems for life; but for my tastes and temperament Kairos is where it's at, and what it's all about, and what I'm most interested in.
Peter
Good grief Peter, that's the kind of stuff I do in sermons.
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Let’s put it this way, do you think he thought about walkability when he designed Tobacco Road or Royal New Kent? Neither do I.
I’m assuming your caddy was WTF’ing you big time pretty early in that round...jesus.
The first time I played TR I went out with "Forest Fezzler who helped with the design. We both threw clubs over shoulders and walked. I have played RNK three times. Walked all three times. Now the walks weren't easy and I was much younger. There were a few green to tee walks that we long.
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I have played all of his work except Bull's Bay. Throw out Stonehouse, which is closed and Tot Hill Farm, which I disliked, he is one of the most creative minds of the last twenty-five years. Some of his holes are controversial, but I think every course should have a couple of those. I like seeing holes that I've never seen anywhere. He has a bunch of them. I think time will be good to him, though I fully expect some of the holes to be softened.
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I'll be in the minority, I think, on how Tobacco Road actually plays.
I think it's a great course to see once or twice. Get lots of photos. Enjoy the heck out of it. Even be goaded into going for a lot of stuff you shouldn't. But the second or third or at least by the fourth time you play there, the course should reveal itself to be pretty simple. It's a pretty easy course to play.
Keep in mind, pro, that you are a pro, pro. The rest of us are not. We don't think nor execute like you.
If ever I travel to the sandhills, I play ToeRoad, Mid Pines, Dormie (if accessible) and Southern Pines. Those are standards, as they are brilliant.
I know. But you can think like me at any level - you can play to the safe, wide areas of the golf course. You can resist temptation. You can resist being goaded into things. The second time I played there, the three guys I was with were students of mine and I talked them through their shots. All shot differentials that were in the top 10% of their last 20 differentials without having seen the course before, because they simply played to the wide open areas. They appreciated the photos, and could see how they'd easily be drawn to going for shots they have no business trying had I not been helping them.
Not that there's anything wrong with that kind of golf. It's just not the kind of golf that I find interesting. The goading is SO over the top it's easy to ignore, because the penalties are SO severe. I'm not a big fan of Tobacco Road. That's fine if it puts me in the minority. I see it as a lot of flash and sizzle with less substance. I'm a big fan of Caledonia. Even of True Blue. More solid tests of golf, less flash/sizzle, with more meat.
P.S. It might be a perfect resort type course. Maybe most players like that WANT to be goaded, because even if they only pull off one shot out of ten "goadings," they'll remember that one and it'll make their day, despite the 93 they shot because 9 out of 10 times they ended up taking a triple or something. It's just not for me. It's a bit boring strategically for me.
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My comment is to be framed in the context that with more time, perhaps Strantz would have honed his philosophy a bit around such criticism. His passing was ill-timed in the sense that a ton of shaping talent available had yet to get established in the field.
I think it's reasonable that Mike would have survived the construction downturn post 2008.
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Pete Pallotta
Thank you, the notion that the two times are different is true but I think that the term TIME is interwoven in golf course design. Was Mike ahead of his time, were his first golf courses quickly dismissed by some as too bold, as Mike evolved did his true artistry and the finer nuances of his golf courses like MPCC become more easily understood?
I appreciate your efforts in the descriptions of Greek Time, I think they are a part of what I have been wanting to discuss further. I just found that John K's posting was timely and that only over time the value of talking about Mikes courses seem to now resonate in GC Architecture circles.
Alister Mackenzies time line is complete. Coore and Crenshaw's contribution to the world of design is still evolving and only time will tell what legacy they will leave on all of us.
So, it my opinion Time not only plays a role in the evolution of a single design it also plays a role in the evolution of many designs, we are now in the era of very natural looking layouts, a far departure from the 70 and 80s manufactured look.
Mammoth Dunes, Sand Valley are both wonderfully done, were Stonehouse and Royal New Kent way ahead of the times?
What will the next evolution in golf course design bring us, only TIME will tell!
Strantz was definitely ahead of his time. Royal New Kent would not even be considered that bold today given the scale of Streamsong and Sand Valley and Old MacDonald.
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From the outside looking in, combining parts of Joe's post with parts of Jeff's & Erik's offers a plausible answer to why Time might be both kind and not kind to the work:
Designed with the playability of a resort course, with penal-looking but avoidable hazards (kind); and constructed with the eye of an artist and not an engineer, and so with minimum 'outs' (not kind).
I suppose that means that the courses will likely rise and fall in step with the health (or decline) of the game/industry/economy as a whole.
P
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I believe that his courses will stand the test of time. If not for the final three holes at THF, I would love that course. It seems like someone dropped a trio of boring holes onto the end of that course. No idea how that happened. The land is certainly malleable enough to have created something unique.
I disagree thinking that the finish to Tot Hill, while tamer than the rest of the course, is a solid trio of golf holes. I like the shape of the two three shotters and love the wall on 17 that runs along that narrow angled green. I actually think it is a wonderful example of MS's ability to use simpler shapes to create interest in his greens.
I do agree that the last three greensites feel a little different, but imagine if all 18 greens were as wild as the 10th - it would feel contrived, which I think his courses can start to feel from time to time. I too love his artistic flair and fearlessness. But I also like where he used constraint, because he rarely did.
Cheers
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It would be a shame to discuss this topic without reading Ran's interview of 2000.
http://golfclubatlas.com/feature-interview/mike-strantz/
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This 2002 review of Tobacco Road hits all the notes:
https://golfweek.com/2002/02/26/take-a-wild-ride-down-tobacco-road/ (https://golfweek.com/2002/02/26/take-a-wild-ride-down-tobacco-road/)
Upon further reading the article is obviously not from 2002 or has been edited. My apologies.
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Until I was told, I would NOT have believed True Blue and Caledonia could have been designed by the same man.
To this old duffer, they were completely different.
True Blue seemed more playable whereas Caledonia had more eye candy.
Playable for me, that is. If I am over 145 yds out, I need to roll or bounce the ball onto the green.
In Scotland that is easy. On True Blue it was possible. (And maybe just my memory is faulty) but it seemed that every green at Caledonia was fronted by sand or water. Most holes there forced me to lay up and then wedge onto the green.
The scorecard and satellite views of True Blue terrified me, but the fairways had wide landing areas and the greens were approachable. I very much enjoyed PLAYING there.
Scoring at Caledonia was a struggle for this duffer, but it was an enjoyable round nevertheless. Beautiful photo opportunities almost everywhere. Check out the Dixie cup discussion and count the relative number of photos for each course.
I'm still amazed that both were designed by the same man!
How I remember Caledonia approaches:
(https://golfcoursegurus.com/photos/southcarolina/caledonia/large/Caledonia-3rd.jpg)
(https://media-cdn.tripadvisor.com/media/photo-s/0d/cc/ac/fd/9-caledonia-golf-club.jpg)
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Bob - your first photo is #11 at True Blue, a 125 par 3 from the forward tee. The second is #9 at Caledonia... a 80-90 yard carry par 3.
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Bob - your first photo is #11 at True Blue, a 125 par 3 from the forward tee. The second is #9 at Caledonia... a 80-90 yard carry par 3.
Ouch!
See how badly memory fails as one gets older!
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Bob - your first photo is #11 at True Blue, a 125 par 3 from the forward tee. The second is #9 at Caledonia... a 80-90 yard carry par 3.
Ouch!
See how badly memory fails as one gets older!
Ouch! My memory is failing, too... your first photo is #3 at Caledonia, a mid-length par 3. It does look a bit like 11 at True Blue though from the angle of your photo.
See, we all have memory failings!!! :'(
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Pete Pallotta
Thank you, the notion that the two times are different is true but I think that the term TIME is interwoven in golf course design. Was Mike ahead of his time, were his first golf courses quickly dismissed by some as too bold, as Mike evolved did his true artistry and the finer nuances of his golf courses like MPCC become more easily understood?
I appreciate your efforts in the descriptions of Greek Time, I think they are a part of what I have been wanting to discuss further. I just found that John K's posting was timely and that only over time the value of talking about Mikes courses seem to now resonate in GC Architecture circles.
Alister Mackenzies time line is complete. Coore and Crenshaw's contribution to the world of design is still evolving and only time will tell what legacy they will leave on all of us.
So, it my opinion Time not only plays a role in the evolution of a single design it also plays a role in the evolution of many designs, we are now in the era of very natural looking layouts, a far departure from the 70 and 80s manufactured look.
Mammoth Dunes, Sand Valley are both wonderfully done, were Stonehouse and Royal New Kent way ahead of the times?
What will the next evolution in golf course design bring us, only TIME will tell!
Strantz was definitely ahead of his time. Royal New Kent would not even be considered that bold today given the scale of Streamsong and Sand Valley and Old MacDonald.
The thing is, I'm not sure RNK is the best example of bold. The 2nd and 5th at Stonehouse stand out to me as very, very different from anything I had seen in that era. RNK certainly was a grander scale than Stonehouse, but I'd posit that it was incremental from what he'd tried before.