Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture Discussion Group => Topic started by: Ran Morrissett on August 30, 2018, 06:04:15 AM
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The Next Fifty section has been replaced. Why? Because after twenty years, it had largely run its course. Populating it with the latest courses from exotic destinations where the golf IQ is as bad as the soil and weather seems pointless.
What has replaced it? 147 Custodians of the Game.
The discussion of what constitutes ‘great’ has been distorted and I have grown too impatient to do nothing. For many of us, our favorite outing of the year is to the U.K. – and it isn’t just because of the golf but rather, the total experience. Be it the abundance of trolleys or lack of funny looks when choosing to carry your own bag, golf in the U.K. and former colonies like Australia gets on with it without the expensive rigmarole found stateside. Hence, this new section offers a different perspective as to what matters.
Perhaps this section is a mistake, as the last thing we need is another list, so view it is a compilation instead ;) . GolfClubAtlas should stand for something and this compilation is meant to reflect the virtues that many of us hold dear, even if it isn’t 100% architecture centric. Maybe it will do some good as a counterpoint to some of the game’s most visible metrics, like the US Open and Golf Digest rankings. Some might take this in part as an anti-caddie message (which it isn’t); rather, it is a pro-choice of carrying message and the only reason I have to type this drivel is because I am in the United States :P . Surely, this effort does no harm in an effort to further discussion on what matters.
Six friends scattered around the globe pitched in with invaluable insight and guidance. When I told one about the criteria, he said, ‘You mean the Cal Club model?’ Right he was – and this list represents places that attract knowledgeable members who don’t need to be suffocated by club policies. They tend to do the right thing on their own in large part because the priorities for the course illustrate what is expected from those who play it.
Bottom line: golf at its best is a simple pursuit - Let's keep it that way. Hope you enjoy this new section.
Here is the link: http://golfclubatlas.com/147-custodians-of-the-game-year1/ (http://golfclubatlas.com/147-custodians-of-the-game-year1/)
Best,
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Yes to this.
Having picked up golf again, I've been bemoaning how terrible the golf options are in Cincinnati. Sure, there is Camargo. But, I will never be a member there. Hyde Park would be my next choice, but it lacks many of things in Ran's list even though I enjoy the course itself.
All I want is a golf club with a strategically interesting course that always allows me to walk carrying/pulling my own bag with minimal interference from staff. There isn't one option in Cincinnati that fits that criteria. Is that really so hard?
Taking a page from the familiar rankings and combining that with Ran's bullet points at the end of the post, GCA could develop its own ranking system with the following categories with key criteria in those categories:
- Daily Strategic Interest - width, in-line/centerline bunkers, green movement/slope, short-game options
- Firm/Fast - running fairways, firm greens, course recovers quickly after heavy rain
- Carrying/Pulling - always allowed, caddies optional, no/hidden/out of play cart paths, short green-tee walks
- Playability - speed of average game, minimal hunting for lost balls, minimal water hazards, suitable for all levels/ages of golfers
- Natural Maintenance - grass variety/"weeds" permitted, minimal watering, native grasses, minimal trees in playing field
- Golf Club - focus on the golf course and the game, deductions for country club amenities and staffing
- Joy - finish 18 and wanting to go straight to 1 again, camaraderie of golfers/members
There really isn't that much in that list specifically related to architecture. Architecutre mostly comes into play on the first point. But, the other six are just as important to me. I would never be a member that point 1 in spades and missed on the others. Most courses I've played in Great Britain get reasonably high marks on all of these. I've played very few courses in the states that can achieve high marks in all these areas.
Yes, I mostly just rehashed what Ran wrote.
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Well done and a nice move towards highlighting some courses that are not on the normal lists of ‘usual suspects’ yet still provide interest, fun and challenge. Particularly pleased to see numbers 34 and 119 included.:)
Atb
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Great list, oops "Custodians".
I would add that the Yale commentary is a little dated. The union is still in place, but they are way past the old pedantic issues that used to hold things back on conditioning. Thanks Scott.
In addition, there is a new AD at Yale (a woman from Colgate, and the Colgate course had great conditioning on a visit last summer) and there is lots of positive energy with many improvements already in the works. Thanks Colin and Peter.
Stay tuned.
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Machrihanish.
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Interesting list where half the courses on many top 10 rankings failed to make the cut:
* Pine Valley
* CPC
* ANGC
* Shinnie
* Oakmont.
I wonder if Tara Iti will be included sometime in the near future?
With Dismal Red making the grade as a custodian, will Ran soon publish a profile of it in Courses By Country?
Edited for formatting.
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I would nominate Northland CC and Kingsley. My quick perusal of the list didn't see those.
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My quick perusal of the list found myself surprisingly delighted and nodding in agreement with Gullane #1.
"Is this Heaven?"
"No, it's Gullane."
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Well done effort Ran, as usual. My only minor quibbles would be that Cruden Bay, Whippoorwill and Boat of Garten didn't make the list and that Myopia Hunt Club should be ranked about 70 points higher than it is.
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Ran,
Is, as I suspect, the list in a specific order? If so, I would have quite a few changes to make (that is if you are open to change???...not something I think has happened post the Big-Bang!).
Also, where is Whipporwill? Cypress? Tara Iti? Cruden Bay, Ohoopee Match?
Is your mind wandering much these days? ;)
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I like it especially when you put in Glens Falls, Taconic & Wolf Point.
However where is Kittansett???
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Swinley Forest is described as “England’s version of Swinley Forest”.
In all seriousness, how are some of these ultra-private and exclusive clubs considered “custodians of the game”?
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Ran
Enjoyed your comment about Ballyneal - but is Sand Hills a "Mayflower" membership too? I didn't get that impression but could be wrong.
No Prairie Dunes? I think it fits almost all your criteria. I carry my own bag almost every time as do many others without the bat of an eye.
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The Next Fifty section has been replaced. Why? Because after twenty years, it had largely run its course. Populating it with the latest courses from exotic destinations where the golf IQ is as bad as the soil and weather seems pointless.
What has replaced it? 147 Custodians of the Game.
The discussion of what constitutes ‘great’ has been distorted and I have grown too impatient to do nothing. For many of us, our favorite outing of the year is to the U.K. – and it isn’t just because of the golf but rather, the total experience. Be it the abundance of trolleys or lack of funny looks when choosing to carry your own bag, golf in the U.K. and former colonies like Australia gets on with it without the expensive rigmarole found stateside. Hence, this new section offers a different perspective as to what matters.
Perhaps this section is a mistake, as the last thing we need is another list, so view it is a compilation instead ;) . GolfClubAtlas should stand for something and this compilation is meant to reflect the virtues that many of us hold dear, even if it isn’t 100% architecture centric. Maybe it will do some good as a counterpoint to some of the game’s most visible metrics, like the US Open and Golf Digest rankings. Some might take this in part as an anti-caddie message (which it isn’t); rather, it is a pro-choice of carrying message and the only reason I have to type this drivel is because I am in the United States :P . Surely, this effort does no harm in an effort to further discussion on what matters.
Six friends scattered around the globe pitched in with invaluable insight and guidance. When I told one about the criteria, he said, ‘You mean the Cal Club model?’ Right he was – and this list represents places that attract knowledgeable members who don’t need to be suffocated by club policies. They tend to do the right thing on their own in large part because the priorities for the course illustrate what is expected from those who play it.
Bottom line: golf at its best is a simple pursuit - Let's keep it that way. Hope you enjoy this new section.
Here is the link: http://golfclubatlas.com/147-custodians-of-the-game-year1/ (http://golfclubatlas.com/147-custodians-of-the-game-year1/)
Best,
Why 147? is there any connection to snooker as 147 is the maximum break you can have in one game which is very rare ;D look forward to going through it though
Ah I have now read the first paragraph - 147 Opens - does that mean it will become 148 next year?
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Pebble Beach was a surprise to me. I've never been but everything I've heard about it points to an expensive, 6 hour round.
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I dunno if Ran will reply so let me opine on 2 things-
The Whip and other places many think are excluded are purposely excluded b/c Ran has rules to this list some involving the club's policies. Ran wants to be able to go have a carry bag and get "after it" whenever he wants. Can you perhaps take your dog on the course ala the UK model as well? I'm just saying-- but there were criteria to be met.
And yes the Swinley Forest quip which is England's version of Swinley Forest was meant to be that way..
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Swinley Forest is described as “England’s version of Swinley Forest”.
In all seriousness, how are some of these ultra-private and exclusive clubs considered “custodians of the game”?
I didn't get it until I read the Somerset and Wykagyl blurbs.
I too was a bit surprised by so many US private clubs included. I spose sometimes the architecture is too good to ignore? Plus, Ran is looking for simple, just play the game club policies.
Ciao
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Some other courses I thought would make it. These opens need to hurry up, 147 is not enough!
Belvedere
Sweetens Cove
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Ran:
I like your format. I think I may have told you that I suggested this to GOLF Magazine way back when - to list the top 87 courses for 1987, so that adding one or two new courses to the list every time didn't necessarily require others to fall off. I wish they'd gone that way.
No doubt there will be many posts about which courses were left off the list. I was more interested in two other analyses:
There are nine courses I haven't seen. Five of them are in America (!) - Kirtland, Wykagyl, Hidden Creek, French Lick, and We-Ko-Pa. The others are Ardfin, St. Germain, Fano and Falsterbo.
There are only seven courses which sounded an off key note as I read through the list. Two of them are actually places where I've consulted over the years. :D I will follow up privately about those, although you probably know some of them because of our varying scores in The Confidential Guide.
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I dunno if Ran will reply so let me opine on 2 things-
The Whip and other places many think are excluded are purposely excluded b/c Ran has rules to this list some involving the club's policies. Ran wants to be able to go have a carry bag and get "after it" whenever he wants. Can you perhaps take your dog on the course ala the UK model as well? I'm just saying-- but there were criteria to be met.
Noel, The Whip has no different a caddy-carry policy than others listed here, thus the excuse for it's exclusion doesn't fly. Upon further reflection, the omission of Prairie Dunes (which just may have the most inclusive policies of all the upper-echelon US Privates) is glaring. I've carried my own bag there as well as seen vocals out with their dogs. Please tell us how a place like this doesn't replace at least 25 of those listed? :-*
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I am really pleased that Isle of Harris makes the list at 146.
I was there just over two weeks ago for the Life Members tournament and their Open and the excellent weather helped show how magical the place is. The position of the course encourages many to stop at the car park as they drive enroute from the ferry from North Uist to the north and just take in the view.
The greenkeeper does such a wonderful job with winter creating problems every year such that the course was in its best condition I have ever seen.
The club welcomes people in such a way that Life Members travel each year from places as diverse as Connecticut, Aberdeen, Asia and Stourbridge and the sales of Harris gin were high as we all sat in the sun outside the clubhouse.
Askernish is a completely different beast. The course is brutal in places when the wind blows much stronger than normal but the rough so severe that you cannot see the ball when looking at it just an inch off the fairway.
They have a Life Members section but the fee seems to discourage membership compared to the Harris model.
I love the test of Askernish (and for the fact that one of my two eagles was achieved there) but the overall package at Harris makes me want to travel there each year.
I would also add Whalsay in Shetland to the list. It is not blessed with many green keepers but it exists purely because of enthusiastic members and a few visitors to boost funds. Give it a try if you get to Shetland.
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Ran
A great idea, well done.
"Golf's great think tank" is a wonderful line used in describing Woking.
In terms of those listed I was particularly pleased to see Troon in there, partly because I have a sort of second hand connection to the club and because I love the course, but also for the very reason you gave in including it. The other two I was pleased to see in the list were firstly Silloth which is probably still my favourite course, and secondly Deal where I totally agree with your comments on the greens.
Niall
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I dunno if Ran will reply so let me opine on 2 things-
The Whip and other places many think are excluded are purposely excluded b/c Ran has rules to this list some involving the club's policies. Ran wants to be able to go have a carry bag and get "after it" whenever he wants. Can you perhaps take your dog on the course ala the UK model as well? I'm just saying-- but there were criteria to be met.
Noel, The Whip has no different a caddy-carry policy than others listed here, thus the excuse for it's exclusion doesn't fly. Upon further reflection, the omission of Prairie Dunes (which just may have the most inclusive policies of all the upper-echelon US Privates) is glaring. I've carried my own bag there as well as seen vocals out with their dogs. Please tell us how a place like this doesn't replace at least 25 of those listed? :-*
I know Golf's most beloved has a reason for the Whip's exclusion- one of which is the thrashing I administered to him there a few years ago (I'm kidding on this but needling him().. He loves the course so you'd have to ask him what the real reason is. The pro there Jim Wahl is a true gentleman of the game as well.. As per PD, I think the width/grass/losing your ball thing came into play.. It's not a ranking per se of architecture in some respects..
To me the biggest criticism Ran is going to face is where are the public golf courses or where is a place like Bethpage (the mowing lines exclude it as he writes in the pre-amble to the piece)? I do know high grass or tightness is a factor. Ran lambasted me for hearing that Deal has allowed high grasses in spots of late as well as gulp allowing some busloads of hordes of foreign golfers for $$$ (that is conjecture, I've never seen that but society play is up there I believe).. The high grass at Deal is because English Nature has asked them to allow a place for the larks to mate/live as they were endangered in losing them (this is what I was told). Larks are part of the experience there as both Darwin and Sir Guy Campbell have opined on their songs while playing Deal. Also I was told by an old member (just like in a PG Woodhouse story) a very true thing, when the weather is bad and the larks come out at Deal, the sun will come out in 20 minutes.. I can say i've seen that happen on half a dozen rounds.. I still can't see how Sandwich is up so high and Deal behind it. But many (Arble/Tom D) will argue about that as sour grapes and me being a Deal homer..
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The comments/blurbs are terrific.
Many little gems of elegantly brief & descriptive writing. It's striking how much can be conveyed when not allowed too many words --the essence and the essential instead of puddles of spilled sensibilities. ('Glued to the ground' for Garden City greens is so good.)
Really neat! Thanks.
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A few of you would do well to read the opening paragraph where he lists reasons for the exclusions of Bethpage and Prairie Dunes, among others.
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I dunno if Ran will reply so let me opine on 2 things-
The Whip and other places many think are excluded are purposely excluded b/c Ran has rules to this list some involving the club's policies. Ran wants to be able to go have a carry bag and get "after it" whenever he wants. Can you perhaps take your dog on the course ala the UK model as well? I'm just saying-- but there were criteria to be met.
Noel, The Whip has no different a caddy-carry policy than others listed here, thus the excuse for it's exclusion doesn't fly. Upon further reflection, the omission of Prairie Dunes (which just may have the most inclusive policies of all the upper-echelon US Privates) is glaring. I've carried my own bag there as well as seen vocals out with their dogs. Please tell us how a place like this doesn't replace at least 25 of those listed? :-*
I know Golf's most beloved has a reason for the Whip's exclusion- one of which is the thrashing I administered to him there a few years ago (I'm kidding on this but needling him().. He loves the course so you'd have to ask him what the real reason is. The pro there Jim Wahl is a true gentleman of the game as well.. As per PD, I think the width/grass/losing your ball thing came into play.. It's not a ranking per se of architecture in some respects..
To me the biggest criticism Ran is going to face is where are the public golf courses or where is a place like Bethpage? I do know high grass or tightness is a factor. Ran lambasted me for hearing that Deal has allowed high grasses in spots of late as well as gulp allowing some busloads of hordes of foreign golfers for $$$ (that is conjecture, I've never seen that but society play is up there I believe).. The high grass at Deal is because English Nature has asked them to allow a place for the larks to mate/live as they were endangered in losing them (this is what I was told). Larks are part of the experience there as both Darwin and Sir Guy Campbell have opined on their songs while playing Deal. Also I was told by an old member (just like in a PG Woodhouse story) a very true thing, when the weather is bad and the larks come out at Deal, the sun will come out in 20 minutes.. I can say i've seen that happen on half a dozen rounds.. I still can't see how Sandwich is up so high and Deal behind it. But many (Arble/Tom D) will argue about that as sour grapes and me being a Deal homer..
Noel,
In the interest of playing Devil's Advocate: if a PD is excluded for it's "gunk," then why isn't a Gamble Sands and it's fun, playable width put in?? The gorse at RCD or RSG or Troon is no better than PD's gunk FWIW. Hmmmm?
As for Ran taking a licking on a course, that must explain why Indian Creek never had a chance! :o
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This is a wonderful new feature and I especially like the ability to add courses over the years and change the list as needed.
My questions marks are Pebble and WeKoPa. I know you are able to walk and carry at Pebble, but I question how many really do so. Nevermind that the rest of the vibe of the place is at odds with the "custodian" vibe Ran wishes to champion. It's quite busy, ungodly expensive, hard to get on unless you're a guest at the even more ungodly expensive resort, etc. It's a nice walk, but it's so far gone from being the kind of place where you feel like you can go out and play golf (or play 36!) that to include it here seems very strange indeed.
WeKoPa is perhaps a little closer to the ideal, though in 10 years and probably 25 rounds I've played there I've seen, I think, one other person walking. To be fair, I haven't been walking in all of those rounds, only the ones during the cooler season. I recall when they opened, they made more of an effort at making walking an option. They even had push carts by the first tee. Those haven't been around for some time now, that I've seen. They aren't offering a different rate for walkers or anything of that sort either. Desert Forest seems to have a better walking culture, from my limited experience there. On the other hand, that's a private club and I like the idea of pushing a public course when possible, and WeKoPa is a significantly more playable course as it is much wider. Again, in the end, I love WKP, I think any visitor to Phoenix should check it out as among the best possible examples of what desert golf can be, but it is still very much resort golf that defaults to guys meeting you at the bag drop and sticking your bag on a cart because cartball is the default assumption. I find it hard to believe it's top 147 custodian of the values championed here, as good as the course and the walk is.
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As for Ran taking a licking on a course, that must explain why Indian Creek never had a chance! :o
Likely the same explanation for Chechessee Creek. ;)
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I think this is a terrific exercise, but I don't get the expensive rigmarole bit.
Most of these courses are either very expensive privates or pricey daily fees. Throw in travel and lodging costs and its well into the thousands to play these places...but a few extra bucks for a caddy and otherwise is now over the top?
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Based on the article, it seems Ran left Prairie Dunes off the list because of too much hunting for lost balls.
I dunno if Ran will reply so let me opine on 2 things-
The Whip and other places many think are excluded are purposely excluded b/c Ran has rules to this list some involving the club's policies. Ran wants to be able to go have a carry bag and get "after it" whenever he wants. Can you perhaps take your dog on the course ala the UK model as well? I'm just saying-- but there were criteria to be met.
Noel, The Whip has no different a caddy-carry policy than others listed here, thus the excuse for it's exclusion doesn't fly. Upon further reflection, the omission of Prairie Dunes (which just may have the most inclusive policies of all the upper-echelon US Privates) is glaring. I've carried my own bag there as well as seen vocals out with their dogs. Please tell us how a place like this doesn't replace at least 25 of those listed? :-*
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Why, it's almost as if this "list" was compiled to foment discussion of the world's great courses! Imagine that!!
:)
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Based on the article, it seems Ran left Prairie Dunes off the list because of too much hunting for lost balls.
I dunno if Ran will reply so let me opine on 2 things-
The Whip and other places many think are excluded are purposely excluded b/c Ran has rules to this list some involving the club's policies. Ran wants to be able to go have a carry bag and get "after it" whenever he wants. Can you perhaps take your dog on the course ala the UK model as well? I'm just saying-- but there were criteria to be met.
Noel, The Whip has no different a caddy-carry policy than others listed here, thus the excuse for it's exclusion doesn't fly. Upon further reflection, the omission of Prairie Dunes (which just may have the most inclusive policies of all the upper-echelon US Privates) is glaring. I've carried my own bag there as well as seen vocals out with their dogs. Please tell us how a place like this doesn't replace at least 25 of those listed? :-*
I'm not sure how much hunting for balls I would do, as there are rattlesnakes there. If I couldn't see if I wasn't going to walk in there. I loved PD for it's design of doglegs both ways and some straight holes. Not many flat putts I can remember however.
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I like the list and I like the criteria, but the two really don't seem to go together. My opinion is based largely on the inclusion of so many highly exclusive (and in some cases, exclusionary) US courses. While I recognize few (if any) of the courses listed meet all of the criteria, it is difficult (for me) to reconcile the 'custodian' concept with many of these clubs.
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Interesting list where half the courses on many top 10 rankings failed to make the cut:
* Pine Valley
* CPC
* ANGC
* Shinnie
* Oakmont.
I wonder if Tara Iti will be included sometime in the near future?
With Dismal Red making the grade as a custodian, will Ran soon publish a profile of it in Courses By Country?
Edited for formatting.
Good points Jim. How ironic huh?
Dismal Red better include a cart ride from the clubhouse to the 1st tee and back, because that is a HAUL!
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I like the list and I like the criteria, but the two really don't seem to go together. My opinion is based largely on the inclusion of so many highly exclusive (and in some cases, exclusionary) US courses. While I recognize few (if any) of the courses listed meet all of the criteria, it is difficult (for me) to reconcile the 'custodian' concept with many of these clubs.
I agree with you, Brian. *Well* said.
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I noticed SILLOTH ON SOLWAY on the list. Is there anything fun to see nearby? I am looking towards a trip in 2019 and this one peaked my interests.
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The four courses which stood out for me are:
Goswick
Elie
Palmetto
Gleneagles Kings
All four display excellent architecture and are lovely days out
All are very different customer models, ranges and levels of customer comfort
Folks can get on with the game with a minimum of fuss...even at 5* Gleneagles
The courses can be walked and are routinely walked without restrictions
There is an element of distanced nature about the courses...even middle of town Palmetto and Elie
The courses don't immediately come to mind for many travelling golfers when thinking of Fife or S Carolina etc
With the exception of Gleneagles, these are courses very high on my Favourite 50 list...and Gleneagles would be if it wasn't so expensive
Ciao
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Ran,
That's a lot of work to put such an interesting list together. Nicely done.
A few questions:
1. Are you going to defend it and some of the placements?
2. Is it a growing list?
3. Have you played the list in it's entirety?
4. I will take it easy on you and only defend my local area or I'd be busy all night. De Eindhovensche Golf Club could fit better into your list, Harry Colt, fast and firm, width, carry your own bag (in fact no caddies) great atmosphere and loads of fun. Just saying...they hvae uped there game since most all of you have been to NL. Especially you Ran. ;D Though we expect to see you soon.
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I like the list and I like the criteria, but the two really don't seem to go together. My opinion is based largely on the inclusion of so many highly exclusive (and in some cases, exclusionary) US courses. While I recognize few (if any) of the courses listed meet all of the criteria, it is difficult (for me) to reconcile the 'custodian' concept with many of these clubs.
Brian:
This is an interesting point, one worth a few more thoughts. #88 on the list is Milwaukee CC here in Wisconsin. It's certainly the most exclusive private club in the state (to join), and one that it's even tough to get on as a guest (a sometimes-poster here related a story after he joined a pretty well-regarded private club in Wisconsin. The head pro told him, if you want to play any other private course in the state, just let me know, and I can provide you a reciprocal letter. Then, as an aside, he said: Except Milwaukee CC. They really don't do that.) So, yes, Milwaukee CC is high on the exclusive/exclusion list.
But they are wonderful stewards of their course -- arguably the best in the state (well, not much argument from me), and improving in recent years with work done by Renaissance. It's a tough test, but pretty exhilarating, from all reports, in part because it sits on great land and topography. The golf there is challenging, but not overbearing I'm guessing from a member's playing perspective. They are closely connected to the USGA, and have on occasion hosted major national tournaments. When I was there for several days during the U.S. Mid-Am about a decade ago, the membership to a person could not have been more accommodating to me -- just a guy off the street interested in golf architecture -- and many spoke proudly and quite knowingly about their course. They have a serious caddy program, and one gets the sense that walking is encouraged there. And it's a vigorous walk -- not onerous like Erin Hills (with its dumb and forced transitions between green and tee), but one that has a journey-like feel to it and travails over rumpled land. And the views of the river!
I'm not sure there is a more exclusive place to play in Wisconsin. I also can't think of a better steward of the game, and of their course, in this state than Milwaukee CC.
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I would think a place like Wine Valley would be a better candidate for "guardian" status.
High quality golfing experience for a fraction of the price of these others. My buddy and I played 45 holes about 5 years ago for $80 each out the door. Sure it wasn't peak season (October as I recall), but the course was in great shape and we had a blast.
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Mulranny and/or Welshpool would make fine additions over the next couple of years to bring the total up to 148 and/or 149! :)
Atb
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To me the biggest criticism Ran is going to face is where are the public golf courses or where is a place like Bethpage (the mowing lines exclude it as he writes in the pre-amble to the piece)? I do know high grass or tightness is a factor. Ran lambasted me for hearing that Deal has allowed high grasses in spots of late as well as gulp allowing some busloads of hordes of foreign golfers for $$$ (that is conjecture, I've never seen that but society play is up there I believe).. The high grass at Deal is because English Nature has asked them to allow a place for the larks to mate/live as they were endangered in losing them (this is what I was told). Larks are part of the experience there as both Darwin and Sir Guy Campbell have opined on their songs while playing Deal. Also I was told by an old member (just like in a PG Woodhouse story) a very true thing, when the weather is bad and the larks come out at Deal, the sun will come out in 20 minutes.. I can say i've seen that happen on half a dozen rounds.. I still can't see how Sandwich is up so high and Deal behind it. But many (Arble/Tom D) will argue about that as sour grapes and me being a Deal homer..
Tuco:
Yes, you're a Deal homer. Which is fine, since you admit it. I'll get back there, someday.
Meanwhile, look at the other courses on this list and tell me Bethpage Black fits the bill. I don't think that omission is just about high grass. They traded in their custodian status to chase big tournaments, which puts them higher up on other lists, but lower on this one.
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In my old age ;) I've found myself more interested in seeking out unique golf experiences as opposed to making sure I play all of the highly ranked &/or more exclusive clubs. Given my ability to travel for golf is so limited now, if I am going to take the time away from home it's going to be for something I can't get at home!
Therefore, I enjoyed Ran's list as it seems to put a premium on the overall experience and it doesn't help that Ran and I appear to have similar tastes....or maybe after 15 years on this website I've just acquired Ran's tastes? :)
It's very neat to see White Bear YC as high as it is on the list, having played with Ran last fall when he saw it for the first time. Most guests will tell you how much they enjoyed themselves but be more critical at a later date, so its neat to see Ran was very honest with his initial feedback of the course/club. It is certainly in great company on the list!
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To me the biggest criticism Ran is going to face is where are the public golf courses or where is a place like Bethpage (the mowing lines exclude it as he writes in the pre-amble to the piece)? I do know high grass or tightness is a factor. Ran lambasted me for hearing that Deal has allowed high grasses in spots of late as well as gulp allowing some busloads of hordes of foreign golfers for $$$ (that is conjecture, I've never seen that but society play is up there I believe).. The high grass at Deal is because English Nature has asked them to allow a place for the larks to mate/live as they were endangered in losing them (this is what I was told). Larks are part of the experience there as both Darwin and Sir Guy Campbell have opined on their songs while playing Deal. Also I was told by an old member (just like in a PG Woodhouse story) a very true thing, when the weather is bad and the larks come out at Deal, the sun will come out in 20 minutes.. I can say i've seen that happen on half a dozen rounds.. I still can't see how Sandwich is up so high and Deal behind it. But many (Arble/Tom D) will argue about that as sour grapes and me being a Deal homer..
Tuco:
Yes, you're a Deal homer. Which is fine, since you admit it. I'll get back there, someday.
Meanwhile, look at the other courses on this list and tell me Bethpage Black fits the bill. I don't think that omission is just about high grass. They traded in their custodian status to chase big tournaments, which puts them higher up on other lists, but lower on this one.
Deal Homer? No apologies here, I'd be buried in the Valley of Inglorious Security although I think Ran is still chili dipping there so maybe the vegetation is sparse..
I'm wondering if the nomenclature here is wrong.. Stewards maybe vs. Custodians... I can see how some think a custodian of the game cannot be elitist etc or very private.. A steward can hold the soul of the game but maybe not be the care-taker behind it.
I mean, TD, are you here if Sterling Farms was not a custodian of this game? And we are talking G. Cornish here, someone we can say definitively as a Johnny Appleseed custodial patriarch even if he was not a steward like Tillie or CB Macdonald..
I dunno, feel free to critique.
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A few of you would do well to read the opening paragraph where he lists reasons for the exclusions of Bethpage and Prairie Dunes, among others.
Reading comprehension was not my strong point on the ACT, nor was anything else for that matter :) Thanks Kyle
I still think you have more room there than Ran gives it credit, other than a few of the par 3s.
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Just double checked, didn't see Pasatiempo on the list.
Which criteria does it not fit? Not the easiest walk I suppose, but in many ways it surely captures the soul of the game...especially the brilliance of that back 9.
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Well done, a list I'd consider playing. Only 101 to go!
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I'm wondering if the nomenclature here is wrong.. Stewards maybe vs. Custodians... I can see how some think a custodian of the game cannot be elitist etc or very private.. A steward can hold the soul of the game but maybe not be the care-taker behind it.
I mean, TD, are you here if Sterling Farms was not a custodian of this game? And we are talking G. Cornish here, someone we can say definitively as a Johnny Appleseed custodial patriarch even if he was not a steward like Tillie or CB Macdonald..
Honestly, when I first saw the title I thought it was going to be a list of people, not courses. And yes, Mr. Cornish would have been on that kind of list were he still alive. I've never confirmed it but someone once told me his fee to design the course in 1970 was $1000 - or $2000 if they wanted him to supervise the construction!
For sure, I'm not here [or anywhere in golf] were it not for the Stamford public golf system - and as we both know I might have quit the game entirely had I been forced to play Hubbard Heights! Sterling Farms had the advantage of being walking distance to my house when we were finished. But I think Ran is trying to make a distinction between the game/sport of golf, and all of the traditions he considers to be important features of "the game of golf".
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IMO: that a quality golf course exists, and that it serves golfers (it matters not how many) and honours/reflects the spirit of the game and of its fields of play, is enough to qualify it for custodian status. That I may never get to play it, that millions of us may never get to play it, seems to me completely besides the point. Such a golf course has inherent value, independent certainly of how it might benefit me. The alternative is to take the kind of utilitarian ethos/approach that has lead to so much mediocrity in so many areas of life, including golf.
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IMO: that a quality golf course exists, and that it serves golfers (it matters not how many) and honours/reflects the spirit of the game and of its fields of play, is enough to qualify it for custodian status. That I may never get to play it, that millions of us may never get to play it, seems to me completely besides the point. Such a golf course has inherent value, independent certainly of how it might benefit me. The alternative is to take the kind of utilitarian ethos/approach that has lead to so much mediocrity in so many areas of life, including golf.
I was talking with a documentary filmmaker about this issue just yesterday. So many people want to write off courses that are very private, based on the "tree falling in the forest" question, and some jealousy that they will never be able to get there.
But, in very few cases is it actually true that you will never be allowed to play a course, if you have a sincere interest in doing so. I started writing letters to clubs when I was 18-19 years old and had no connections in the golf business whatsoever -- and in the first year I was welcomed with open arms at places like Seminole, Merion, LACC, and SFGC. Of course, not everyone can write as good a letter as I could when I was 19, but there are some very nice people behind some of those closed doors. And they do take the traditions of the game much more seriously than the run of the mill club, in part, because they can afford to!
The only course on Ran's list that really shouldn't be there on this basis is Ardfin. I know he loved it - he gave it a 9 on the Doak Scale - but I suspect the only reason he gained access to the course was so he could give them a high score. [Well, that and he is old friends with the designer.] That these ultra-private one-man courses open their doors to raters, and pretty much nobody else, is a little sleazy. I don't think it qualifies them as Custodians of the Game.
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'Below is a list of 147 courses where the game, as I enjoy it, is celebrated.'
That’s the first line, so it’s my list and the attitude of “Your list should reflect my personal preferences” is not a convincing path for meaningful discussion. There are 30,000 courses in the world and I have drawn attention to 147. Favorites of mine didn’t make the list and I am still grumpy that I ‘published’ without finding room for #148, Holston Hills. So much Ross, so few spots!
Everybody drones on and on about how important “infinite variety” is when it comes to golf course design. Isn’t a list that includes courses ranging from an honesty box at Isle of Harris to the seemingly impenetrable confines of Chicago Golf Club, and everything in between, a tribute to same kind of variety in our golf places?
Since when have private associations been a problem in free societies? Freedom of association is a right that’s high up the list, at least to me.
Since when is every golfer who was ever born entitled to play every golf course ever built, without earning the right to be invited as a guest, if not a member?
If you want a list of courses accessible to everybody in the world, you won’t have a list of the courses that best exemplify what’s good about the game. Sorry, but that’s not my fault.
Best,
PS A shout to Kyle Harris for actually reading the preamble, which explains the absence of Bethpage and Prairie Dunes. Tara Iti doesn't make it because the idea of being forced to take a caddie in NZ is abhorrent.
PPS For those of you that enjoy the list, it is largely due to the lack of Steve Lapper's input. ;D
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Great list Ran, and your preface and the summaries themselves are worth the price of admission. There are a number of courses on this list I’ve never heard of or heard discussed much or at all on GCA.com, and I’d love to hear more (or visit them). Certainly thought and discussion provoking as George P suggests above. Speaking of which, I’m shocked—shocked—that CommonGround didn’t make this list. It ticks each of the 8 criteria you list. However, this is a quibble, and your new list is a valuable addition to the site. Your “Next Fifty”, while interesting, never garnered much attention from the viewers....
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I like the concept behind the 147. It's about time someone decided to break out of the current mold of listing the most exclusive, the most manicured, the longest and the most ridiculous as somehow to be admired and imitated. I won't restate Ran's qualifiers for this list except to say a walk on a great golf course begs to be repeated. Having grown up playing Prairie Dunes, I understand the issue that kept it off the list, wonderful though it is. Perhaps if the long grass there were more like the gorse in Scotland, where any attempt to find a ball will likely result in blood loss, it might be different! I would encourage Ran's return to Dornoch- it would be interesting to see how it looks today to one who was there when it was a journey to find.
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Ran
I applaud all your efforts and respect you as a true custodian of the game. All you say is very true and I am sure that nobody is suggesting that private associations is an issue. At least from my perspective, one of the most important golf custodial responsibilities is to encourage people to play the game so future generations can hopefully enjoy the greatness of golf just as many of us do today. The game is far more important than any great individual or great course. I would suggest that many clubs listed are more engaged as custodians for their memberships and the courses. However, I do not wish to belittle this approach for without interesting courses the game is only a shadow of what it is meant to be. I think many are merely suggesting that perhaps your criteria omitted a very important aspect of custodianship.
Ciao
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Mark,
Prairie Dunes and Cruden Bay didn't make the cut because of emails that I have received indicating brutal playing conditions. I haven't seen either in 5+ years but I get g-o-b-s of emails and receive daily feedback on how courses play around the world. Assuming I respect the source, I 'file' the information away in my pumpkin head.
With C & C at the helm, I know the fairways at PD are sufficient in width and the greens are AAA+ but if one person in a group of four starts spraying it, the experience dwindles for the whole group. The control burns are an art form but head down, looking for balls is a deal killer and the gunch at PD is a different beast than wispy fescue elsewhere.
For instance, Sean Arble will tell you that I pulled my drive (a fact that wasn't covered by ESPN for some mysterious reason 8) ) wildly left on the 1st at Old Minch, yet, I still found it quick smart. Courses with fescue that looks cool, adds texture, BUT you don't have to spend time looking for balls = candidate for the list.
Stoatin Brae had a real chance to make the list but its thick fescue made me hesitate. Like Douglas MacArthur, I shall return - and I really think GCA should have a fall gathering there in 2019.
Best,
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Ran
One of the great privileges of living in the UK is the opportunity to play courses over and over...in all seasons and weather. Your visit to Minch Old was during an exceptional weather period (driest period since 1976!). From tee to green one couldn't have hoped for better conditions. We won't talk about the greens :P
Ciao
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I like the concept behind the 147. It's about time someone decided to break out of the current mold of listing the most exclusive, the most manicured, the longest and the most ridiculous as somehow to be admired and imitated. I won't restate Ran's qualifiers for this list except to say a walk on a great golf course begs to be repeated. Having grown up playing Prairie Dunes, I understand the issue that kept it off the list, wonderful though it is. Perhaps if the long grass there were more like the gorse in Scotland, where any attempt to find a ball will likely result in blood loss, it might be different! I would encourage Ran's return to Dornoch- it would be interesting to see how it looks today to one who was there when it was a journey to find.
We were advised to play all tall grass as a lateral hazard as apparently many members do as well, due to it being a needle in the haystack and rattlesnakes. One you want to find the other you don't. So drop and play on. 8)
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There's a book to be written someday, "The Idea of the Golf Course", treading some of the same ground that Haultain and Behr and Murphy did, but instead of starting (as they did) with the metaphysics and only coincidentally touching on the material/physical fields of play it would be solidly rooted in the golf courses themselves and 'build up' from there. Ran's list, and the rationales and value systems that it reflects, would be a great place to start. I'd imagine many here would find it pretentious claptrap, but when I read between the lines of Ran's initial posts (and remember how many hundreds of thousands of threads this site/subject has engendered over the years), it seems clear to me that for many of us golf and specifically golf course architecture contains a 'meaning' and a 'message' both, and ones that (sometimes, if only rarely) are trans-personal in nature.
Peter
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Sean,
Please collaborate what happened at Old Minch re: my wife.
A non-golfer, she was so compelled by the relaxed atmosphere and beauty of the place, that she started to … gasp …. PLAY! After a few mis-fires, she started to nail it too, yes?
I am not saying this was a good turn of events for either the game or me 8) … but give Old Minch (and Cabot where it happened a few years ago) credit. Like every other course on this list, if someone is lucky to find themselves there, don't be shocked to see interest form.
Best,
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Sean,
Please collaborate what happened at Old Minch re: my wife.
A non-golfer, she was so compelled by the relaxed atmosphere and beauty of the place, that she started to … gasp …. PLAY! After a few mis-fires, she started to nail it too, yes?
I am not saying this was a good turn of events for either the game or me 8) … but give Old Minch (and Cabot where it happened a few years ago) credit. Like every other course on this list, if someone is lucky to find themselves there, don't be shocked to see interest form.
Best,
Ran
For sure, once she stopped her dancing follow-through, the Mrs was hitting it more pure than us! I will also confirm that she was compelled to do headstands/cartwheels.
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/1/941/43927406322_33fa103cac_b.jpg) (https://c1.staticflickr.com/1/941/43927406322_33fa103cac_b.jpg)
I haven't spoken to many non-gca folks who have played Minch Old. Besides you, the other recent GCAer to receive his Minch Old badge was T Kelly, who works with Doc Hiseman. I am sure he was impressed by the course.
Ciao
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Ran,
When I read the first paragraph of your preface, the names Franklin Hills and Saint Louis County Club sprung to mind. I was not sure that you had played that beauty on Inkster Road where I caddied long ago. Also great to see Culver and Wykagyl on the list.
I agree the Country Club (Cleveland) deserves its lofty ranking, but its one spot too low in Flynn land, because the famous Long Island "Flynn" course has 2 or 3 Raynor holes, does it not ?
Your perceptive take on Pebble Beach is refreshingly spot on. I love Dismal River Red but I am not sure that #8 there is a half par hole.
Thank you for your great effort on the 147. I need to zip over to El Saler and Prout's Neck in 2019 !
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Best summary is Brora: “When people dream of playing golf in Scotland, this is what they are thinking of, even if they don’t know it.“
[/color]Pure wisdom.
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This is a wonderful new feature and I especially like the ability to add courses over the years and change the list as needed.
My questions marks are Pebble and WeKoPa. I know you are able to walk and carry at Pebble, but I question how many really do so. Nevermind that the rest of the vibe of the place is at odds with the "custodian" vibe Ran wishes to champion. It's quite busy, ungodly expensive, hard to get on unless you're a guest at the even more ungodly expensive resort, etc. It's a nice walk, but it's so far gone from being the kind of place where you feel like you can go out and play golf (or play 36!) that to include it here seems very strange indeed.
WeKoPa is perhaps a little closer to the ideal, though in 10 years and probably 25 rounds I've played there I've seen, I think, one other person walking. To be fair, I haven't been walking in all of those rounds, only the ones during the cooler season. I recall when they opened, they made more of an effort at making walking an option. They even had push carts by the first tee. Those haven't been around for some time now, that I've seen. They aren't offering a different rate for walkers or anything of that sort either. Desert Forest seems to have a better walking culture, from my limited experience there. On the other hand, that's a private club and I like the idea of pushing a public course when possible, and WeKoPa is a significantly more playable course as it is much wider. Again, in the end, I love WKP, I think any visitor to Phoenix should check it out as among the best possible examples of what desert golf can be, but it is still very much resort golf that defaults to guys meeting you at the bag drop and sticking your bag on a cart because cartball is the default assumption. I find it hard to believe it's top 147 custodian of the values championed here, as good as the course and the walk is.
Pebble is easy to get on as a walk on.
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This is a wonderful new feature and I especially like the ability to add courses over the years and change the list as needed.
My questions marks are Pebble and WeKoPa. I know you are able to walk and carry at Pebble, but I question how many really do so. Nevermind that the rest of the vibe of the place is at odds with the "custodian" vibe Ran wishes to champion. It's quite busy, ungodly expensive, hard to get on unless you're a guest at the even more ungodly expensive resort, etc. It's a nice walk, but it's so far gone from being the kind of place where you feel like you can go out and play golf (or play 36!) that to include it here seems very strange indeed.
WeKoPa is perhaps a little closer to the ideal, though in 10 years and probably 25 rounds I've played there I've seen, I think, one other person walking. To be fair, I haven't been walking in all of those rounds, only the ones during the cooler season. I recall when they opened, they made more of an effort at making walking an option. They even had push carts by the first tee. Those haven't been around for some time now, that I've seen. They aren't offering a different rate for walkers or anything of that sort either. Desert Forest seems to have a better walking culture, from my limited experience there. On the other hand, that's a private club and I like the idea of pushing a public course when possible, and WeKoPa is a significantly more playable course as it is much wider. Again, in the end, I love WKP, I think any visitor to Phoenix should check it out as among the best possible examples of what desert golf can be, but it is still very much resort golf that defaults to guys meeting you at the bag drop and sticking your bag on a cart because cartball is the default assumption. I find it hard to believe it's top 147 custodian of the values championed here, as good as the course and the walk is.
Pebble is easy to get on as a walk on.
Yeah, I didn't mean it in the respect that you can't find a tee time. I meant more in respect of how difficult they make it. Wait until the day before and see what's available is not a very generous policy.
But that's not really Ran's concern, and I can respect that. (My quibble really is more with suspicions about how many people actually walk and carry there plus the cart paths.) But from the perspective of the course alone I can't quibble with including it, I think I like it much more than most here.
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I keep rolling this around in my head, the important symbolism of the '147 custodians' instead of 'the next 50'. And I also keep coming back to Ran's stated focus on 'what genuinely matters'.
Powerful concept (and question) that, if we take it seriously: what genuinely matters.
Ran's list of criteria/qualities is a good one, and plus it's *his*, so that's that.
For me, I wonder: should the courses also be custodians of the land itself?
As my old Italian grandfather said when I complimented him one year on a particularly bountiful vegetable garden: "I wasn't feeling well this spring, and so I said to God, 'If you'd like a good crop this year you'll have to do even more of the work than usual' -- and He did! After all, it's not my land, it's God's. A thousand people have lived on this land before me, and a thousand will live on it after I'm gone. All God asks me to do is to take good care of it during my time here."
That sure seems like a true custodian's attitude -- even though my grandfather would never have even heard that word, let alone used it to describe himself.
And that sure seems to me to be one of the things that genuinely matters:
Build a course with the land as you find it, and then maintain the land as if you're its caretaker and not its owner.
And then leave room for God to do the rest.
I'd bet you'd have one heck of a great field of play, and for a very long time.
P
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Fascinating food for thought and a list to try to tick the box on - Thanks Ran!
Still need to get you out to Astoria so you can experience a candidate for 148 (although many of the fuddy duddy's take a cart because they don't quite have a Scottish constitution for 8 months of the year). It's definitely FAF (Fun as F!) even if it doesn't have the pedigree of some of the others on the list. Such a fun walk and inspires a trip from the 18th green right back to the 1st tee.
Some of the places on the list are cathedrals while others are a local church where many of us attend "golf mass" on a weekly basis.
Playing Chicago Golf and having a 17 year old HS caddie from the neighborhood reminded me of growing up in Toronto and lugging bags at Rosedale during the summer. Exclusive, but providing an amazing opportunity for kids to learn about the game and life while making a couple of bucks. It was a round I'll never forget on several levels.
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Any 'custodian' selection that includes Huntercombe and Harlech and Porthcawl is 100% fine by me (obviously 100% biased response). And, to answer Sean's question, I have had the pleasure of a game at Minch Old, a single round on my own in 1986. Which I remember with great clarity, much as Henry Longhurst (to cite another quotable authority) remembered a game at Thetford in the early 1930s: writing after WW2 he observed that 'It is fifteen years since I played at Thetford and they will pardon me for saying that it was never in outstanding order in those days - due, as now, to lack of money. Nevertheless the memory of playing there stays happily with me, while that of dozens of other courses, doubtless in better condition, has long since faded'. Minch Old emphatically has the same effect. And nobody was even doing cartwheels the day I was there.
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The list is a lovely one and I don’t think there can be much arguing about the GB&I entries. It is clearly somewhat subjective but all the entries are courses that capture the essence of the game.
Clearly I could be subjective too and differ slightly in my opinion (the one add I’d really like to see is Ganton) but that is far from the point.
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I do hope that Ran might one day experience Mulranny, on the Atlantic Coast, in Ireland. It has everything he enjoyed about the Isle of Harris, but is actually a decent quality 9-hole course too. A heavenly, peaceful, simple place to enjoy golf.
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Yes to both the above to suggestions
Ganton is not only better course (best inland in GB&I?) and a proper club where people play 36 holes fast. Refreshments come in the form of “Ganton Cake” which just has to be sampled to be believed. Woodhall is a P&P which attracts a lot of 4 ball visitor play.
Mulranny Yes indeed. Am planning a sentimental journey next year and Mulranny is top of my list of Irish courses to return to. Everything about the place whispers Honesty.
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A list of 147 international courses that includes Elie, Silloth and Goswick? Brilliant.
Anyone wanting to find out why Goswick makes the list should attend next year's BUDA!
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The list isn't what is important it is the concept behind it of what makes golf great and how so many people are losing sight of that and how it is making golf less fun. It does make you realize how many "under the radar" courses meet these attributes yet are overlooked by so many golfers as they travel to Scotland, Ireland or wherever.
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I do hope that Ran might one day experience Mulranny, on the Atlantic Coast, in Ireland. It has everything he enjoyed about the Isle of Harris, but is actually a decent quality 9-hole course too. A heavenly, peaceful, simple place to enjoy golf.
+1 x 100%
Definitely a course Ran (and all others) needs to visit.......along with Welshpool!
And a great place for cartwheels too. :)
Atb
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A non-golfer, she was so compelled by the relaxed atmosphere and beauty of the place, that she started to … gasp …. PLAY! After a few mis-fires, she started to nail it too, yes?
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/1/941/43927406322_33fa103cac_b.jpg) (https://c1.staticflickr.com/1/941/43927406322_33fa103cac_b.jpg)
I haven't spoken to many non-gca folks who have played Minch Old. Besides you, the other recent GCAer to receive his Minch Old badge was T Kelly, who works with Doc Hiseman. I am sure he was impressed by the course.
Ciao
Ran,
Glad you got back the next day and had the time to play the course rather than than just view it.
I can confirm that the previous day a certain cartwheeler was so taken by Minch’ Old and the area in general that she happened to mention she’d take up the game if she lived nearby! For a non-golfer that’s some recommendation.
As to other visitors, I have taken many folks to Minch’ Old over the years and every one has been enthralled by the course and the place to the extent that they still mention it in discussions, correspondence etc and have taken other folks there themselves. Not just very fine golf but a special aura as well.
I’m not sure though to what extent the club, the members and the organisation that runs the Common realise what a special place they have.
Atb
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The list isn't what is important it is the concept behind it of what makes golf great and how so many people are losing sight of that and how it is making golf less fun. It does make you realize how many "under the radar" courses meet these attributes yet are overlooked by so many golfers as they travel to Scotland, Ireland or wherever.
Yes. We reviewed 300+ courses in Britain & Ireland for The Confidential Guide and there wouldn't be too many of them that did NOT exhibit the sensibilities inherent in Ran's list. The same ethos is on display across New Zealand (except at perhaps 3-5 modern designs), Canada, France*, and Sri Lanka (!!), which only has five courses but three of which would be totally at home in Scotland.
By contrast, in most other countries it is rare to stumble across such a place; golf is much more commercial. By Peter's standard of being stewards of the land, there have been many atrocities committed in the past 30-40 years in the name (but not the spirit) of golf. And American designers and consultants have been the prime movers of most of them, not just at home but around the globe.
* It is no coincidence that the site of this year's Ryder Cup is one of the few courses in France which lacks this ethos.
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Interesting discussion on the criteria for entry onto the list but I’m not sure it should be too prescriptive, in the same way that back in the day the ODG’s came up with various lists of design principles that they eventually came to think of as a guide rather than being set in tablets of stone.
For instance, there may be some clubs that wouldn’t allow me through the gates but that doesn’t stop them from being Custodians of the Game (how about Champions of the game instead ?). Indeed I dare say that some on here would probably argue that should enhance their chances of being on the list !
Anyway Ran, what about Forfar ?! No caddies, no buggies, no rattlesnakes and cheap as chips. A wee gem by James Braid. What’s not to like ?
Niall
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I like the concept behind the 147. It's about time someone decided to break out of the current mold of listing the most exclusive, the most manicured, the longest and the most ridiculous as somehow to be admired and imitated. I won't restate Ran's qualifiers for this list except to say a walk on a great golf course begs to be repeated. Having grown up playing Prairie Dunes, I understand the issue that kept it off the list, wonderful though it is. Perhaps if the long grass there were more like the gorse in Scotland, where any attempt to find a ball will likely result in blood loss, it might be different! I would encourage Ran's return to Dornoch- it would be interesting to see how it looks today to one who was there when it was a journey to find.
We were advised to play all tall grass as a lateral hazard as apparently many members do as well, due to it being a needle in the haystack and rattlesnakes. One you want to find the other you don't. So drop and play on. 8)
This is simply not the case for any member of Prairie Dunes that I have ever met or played along side. You hit a bad shot you pay the price. Oh, the horror!!!
I don't doubt that the staff tells unaccompanied guests to play flop, drop and mop just to keep the pace of play for members at an acceptable rate.
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The list is a lovely one and I don’t think there can be much arguing about the GB&I entries. It is clearly somewhat subjective but all the entries are courses that capture the essence of the game.
Clearly I could be subjective too and differ slightly in my opinion (the one add I’d really like to see is Ganton) but that is far from the point.
Going by Ran’s criteria the exclusion of Ganton must be an oversight. (Either that or he hasn’t played it.) To consider otherwise is to do considerable damage to the list’s credibility.
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Some good has come from this list. I called and verified that Pinehurst #2 has indeed done away with the mandatory caddie requirement. I will return next year.
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Going by Ran’s criteria the exclusion of Ganton must be an oversight. (Either that or he hasn’t played it.) To consider otherwise is to do considerable damage to the list’s credibility.
These are surely not meant to be the only 147 courses that embody the spirit of the game.
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The list is a lovely one and I don’t think there can be much arguing about the GB&I entries. It is clearly somewhat subjective but all the entries are courses that capture the essence of the game.
Clearly I could be subjective too and differ slightly in my opinion (the one add I’d really like to see is Ganton) but that is far from the point.
Going by Ran’s criteria the exclusion of Ganton must be an oversight. (Either that or he hasn’t played it.) To consider otherwise is to do considerable damage to the list’s credibility.
The exclusion of Ganton was surely entirely deliberate, done with the certainty that it would cause you to post again?
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I haven't gone through this whole thread or the "147 Custodians" in detail, but am I the only one who instantly noticed the vast majority are inaccessible by an Average Joe and that the ones that are would generally cost them an arm and a leg to play?
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I like the list in content and concept, but I'd like to just throw one more out there for the sake of sharing:
Riviera Country Club - "No, not that Riviera - this one's just outside Daytona Beach. No tee times, just one of Florida's pleasantest walks, with greens that are pushed up just enough that you'll shake your head smiling at the fun you're having trying to make birdies."
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Sean,
Please collaborate what happened at Old Minch re: my wife.
A non-golfer, she was so compelled by the relaxed atmosphere and beauty of the place, that she started to … gasp …. PLAY! After a few mis-fires, she started to nail it too, yes?
I am not saying this was a good turn of events for either the game or me 8) … but give Old Minch (and Cabot where it happened a few years ago) credit. Like every other course on this list, if someone is lucky to find themselves there, don't be shocked to see interest form.
Best,
Ran
For sure, once she stopped her dancing follow-through, the Mrs was hitting it more pure than us! I will also confirm that she was compelled to do headstands/cartwheels.
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/1/941/43927406322_33fa103cac_b.jpg) (https://c1.staticflickr.com/1/941/43927406322_33fa103cac_b.jpg)
Ha ha, like this is a surprise to hear... She would of most certinaly been the only one in the group with talent!
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Ran notes in his preface that he did a quick count of courses by architect. Has anyone done a complete count yet?
Ira
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Having gone through all the posts on this thread I went back and read once again Rans opening description. And what a delightful summary of the many elements of golf that some of us posting herein adhere to it is.
I urge all to go back and read it once again - [size=78%]http://golfclubatlas.com/147-custodians-of-the-game-year1/ (http://golfclubatlas.com/147-custodians-of-the-game-year1/)[/size]
Atb
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There's one (at least) whose design is evidently solely responsible for inclusion in the 147
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I haven't gone through this whole thread or the "147 Custodians" in detail, but am I the only one who instantly noticed the vast majority are inaccessible by an Average Joe and that the ones that are would generally cost them an arm and a leg to play?
If this is what we all consider to by "Custodians of the Game" I'm quite saddened.
I noticed Sleepy Hollow's considered a "custodian"...I might agree if we were talking Cleveland. I'm pretty sure that not the case.
The 147 is an interesting idea but always going to lead to certain disagreements. I agree with you Frank in that any super exclusive club (many of the top US clubs) are not access friendly nor affordable to the average player.
Jon
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I went loosely through the list, its about 2/3 easy access though a significant percentage of these courses are very expensive to play. However, I can fully understand that part of being a custodian of golf is protecting the best and/or unique places to play the game and it so happens that a great many of the best courses are difficult to access and expensive...so be it. I can't quibble much about the 52 courses on the list I played. I know Ran is very focused on architecture so that to a large degree "explains" his list. However, just as happened with Doak (imo anyway), I sense an expanding idea of what is good architecture and what is good golf. Maybe, just maybe, Ran is starting to think the joy of the game is just as important as architecture...well I hope so. I often feel that folks look a bit deeper for good architecture if a feel good connection is made with the course and the experience of the day. That is to say, there is a load of good architecture out there for which the small clubs are the custodians. Let us hope that in time the 147 Custodians shines a brighter light on these unsung custodians just as Doak included many more quality lesser knowns in his recent CG editions.
Ciao
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Surely good GCA is all about if players enjoy playing the course regardless of where they derive their enjoyment from. A good building is not just about being functional but as much to do with the pleasure it's occupants get out of it. The same is with a golf course.
Jon
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Surely good GCA is all about if players enjoy playing the course regardless of where they derive their enjoyment from. A good building is not just about being functional but as much to do with the pleasure it's occupants get out of it. The same is with a golf course.
Agreed. But for ages there has been a subset of vocal golfers who have insisted the overriding point of a golf course was to TEST the player FAIRLY in all aspects of his game. To even suggest this was not the most important thing is considered heresy by many. I suspect it's the main reason I've always been considered controversial ... because that's the underlying criticism behind most of the reviews that people react to.
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corroborate
on another note, where is that Wild Horse listing? Seems it would fit all characteristics of this list.
I like the list. I can appreciate a course without playing it. I encourage folks to build vacations around Curtis Cups, Walker Cups, and every tournament other than the US Open. Great access to courses on the list, without having to pay green fees or grovel for an invitation.
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Best summary is Brora: “When people dream of playing golf in Scotland, this is what they are thinking of, even if they don’t know it.“
Pure wisdom.
I too love this description of Brora!
Thanks for the list Ran, which as with any such list generates interesting discussions.
Its also a real delight to see my home course Notts so high on this list at 32 and in such company. Many thanks!
Cheers,
James
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The amount of correspondence and phone calls that I have received in the first week since posting the 147 is such that I have determined that when people say they hate lists, what they really mean is that they find lists of hard, boring courses worthless. Nothing GolfClubAtlas has done in twenty years has so quickly galvanized support and brought good cheer. NOTHING.
Some points from week one:
- My favorite response was from a friend in New York that said, ‘Ran, should you ever elect to do a book on famous mountain treks, please include Mt. Everest and K2, even though they are expensive to do.’ Boom!
- Another person said, Watch how quickly writers shift and copy the spirit of your message.
- Why a particular course didn’t make it is obvious; there was only room for 147 courses so not everyone’s favorite could be included (especially mine, some ~30 other courses appeared on it during its four month creation).
- Despite James Braid already being well represented, the fact that two people demanded to know where Perranporth was is encouraging. Answer: I haven't seen it!
- Regarding Ganton, I am not sure if it or Delamere Forest exudes more variety. They are for a later edition, perhaps, but where there is tweed, there is Ran. ;D
- Interestingly enough, the several architects that have responded got that the preamble was more important than the list.
- One man wanted to know who helped: I responded I knew I could trust their insight because none wanted recognition.
- Another who clearly gets the spirit of ‘inclusive golf’ sent me a link on the most dog friendly courses in the United Kingdom.
- I received an incredible amount of input for future updates: one course suffers from ‘weedy grass’ and shouldn’t have been included as it represents plop-plop golf, I received the finest description of Ballybunion’s evolution that I have ever read, and a slew of other, up-to-the-moment feedback. THANK YOU - please keep sending it.
- Apparently, an error was made by me in including an American club that features a rigorous caddie policy; it will be removed this year and I will so note when it happens and what replaced it.
Bottom line: the message delivered wasn’t nearly as incendiary as a few people warned it might be, which means there is hope for commonsense to prevail - and for the sport to flourish.
Best,
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See what happens when you go with your heart instead of your head? Someone (though not me) might suggest you should've been doing cartwheels a long time ago! :)
Peter
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You made a great list, Ran. I appreciate all the work you did to make this list.
You have given me reasons to travel more in my declining years. Glad you included Fraserburgh!
Thank you for publishing this.
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Best summary is Brora: “When people dream of playing golf in Scotland, this is what they are thinking of, even if they don’t know it.“
[/color]Pure wisdom.
Ran is a poet.
Either that, or he has a poet's heart.
Or both!
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Love it....what golf is supposed to be all about. A little disappointed there was no Pasatiempo.......
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Interestingly enough, the several architects that have responded got that the preamble was more important than the list.
Just what I was attempting to get at in post 85. In fact the preamble would be great even if there were no following list. And Perranporth is yet to be visited!
atb
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Bottom line: the message delivered wasn’t nearly as incendiary as a few people warned it might be, which means there is hope for commonsense to prevail - and for the sport to flourish.
I was genuinely quite surprised to read this. I'm amazed how anything on a website for a relatively small bunch of enthusiasts could generate any kind of heat, particularly for something that is well meaning and to my mind so inoffensive. What am I missing ?
Niall
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'Below is a list of 147 courses where the game, as I enjoy it, is celebrated.'
That’s the first line, so it’s my list and the attitude of “Your list should reflect my personal preferences” is not a convincing path for meaningful discussion. There are 30,000 courses in the world and I have drawn attention to 147. Favorites of mine didn’t make the list and I am still grumpy that I ‘published’ without finding room f
Ran,
You could have easily fit in Holston Hills on the list. It's quite a bit better than the Ross at French Lick. But, be warned, that bag drop usage is encouraged at both. For that reason, I think Lookout Mountain would be a worthy substitute. Far from the best Raynor in its present state, it's delightfully unfussy and an absolute blast to play. Best of all, unlike the two Rosses mentioned, dogs are welcome to tag along. As Lorne Smith notes on his FineGolf site, dogs "add much to the 'joy to be alive' feeling by adding to the relaxation and sociability of the recreational game." And who better to nudge you back to the first tee after a round?!
I've really enjoyed reading through your post over the past few days, and the short reviews are simply outstanding - especially the one of Brora! Each time I go through the courses or read the text that leads in, I find something new that makes me think. Many thanks for the concept itself and the huge amount of time you must have spent to compile everything.
I have often wished you would post more in the discussion group, but every time I see a course profile or something like 147, I'm reminded that you are using your time far better than most of us.
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I have often wished you would post more in the discussion group, but every time I see a course profile or something like 147, I'm reminded that you are using your time far better than most of us.
We are all still waiting for the Mayhugh 147 Course Accoutrement list!!
http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,45997.msg1013104.html#msg1013104
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Here is Ran discussing the 147 Custodians list on the most recent State of the Game podcast.
https://stateofthegame.libsyn.com/
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I've kept my mouth shut, but I'm having trouble with this whole "Custodians of the Game" concept. I admire Ran and all he has done with this website and the game of golf in general. But I think that to label golf courses as "Custodians, " when he's really talking about golf clubs, not courses, confuses things.
And, more importantly, I have trouble with the criteria selected in selecting these "Custodians." It's unsaid, but maybe implied, that these are based purely on Ran's personal choices of what defines a "Custodian." I would have a very different list of criteria by which I'd pick these "protectors of the game," and my list would not closely resemble his.
By this statement, I don't mean to take away from Ran, nor his list, nor his right to define "Custodians" in any way he wants. Nor do I presume that I have the same reputation nor experience in golf as he. I just didn't want to leave it unsaid that at least one person would differ with him in his criteria and his results. But as the US founding fathers said, I'd defend to the death his right to say whatever he wants.
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Loved seeing Rock Creek near the top of the list as it should be. Good work Ran.
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Mike,
Trying to narrow down to 147...
Jim Hoak,
Ran made clear in his first statement that "Below is a list of 147 courses where the game, as I enjoy it, is celebrated." (Emphasis added is mine) You seem to have overlooked that part. If you don't like the criteria he used, how about sharing your own? Based on your criteria, how about some examples of courses you would add and delete?
I think you have every right to disagree, but if you're going to disagree, how about putting yourself and your views out there with some tangible examples? The discussion group benefits from having things to discuss.
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John, thanks. I did not overlook the statement you emphasize. And I did say that it was implied that the criteria were personal to Ran, which is fine. I just said that my criteria would be different.
First of all, and not to quibble, but it is the club, not the course, that celebrates the game of golf. I see the point of this website to focus on the architecture of courses. Some of these criteria have nothing to do with the course, only how the club conducts itself.
But, more specifically. i would argue that many of the leading clubs in the US do a lot more to protect and guard the game of golf than many of the smaller clubs mentioned in Ran's list. I'm not going to name specific clubs, but you will note that most of the "big-name" clubs are excluded from his list. I don't agree.
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I suggest folks read or re-read Rans preamble - http://golfclubatlas.com/147-custodians-of-the-game-year1/ (http://golfclubatlas.com/147-custodians-of-the-game-year1/)
Atb
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Bill, I don't have 3 names that I would argue should be included on Ran's list. It's not the names on the list that I don't agree with, it's the criteria for inclusion as "Custodians" or "Guardians" of the Game that I have trouble with. It's Ran's list and he has the full right to set any criteria he wants. It's just that I don't agree that those criteria are the ones I'd choose if I were defining who are the true "Custodians of the Game." Is my definition any better than his? I don't know. But I do know that his list is his personal definition of the matter.
I'm going to leave it at that, before I set myself up as appearing to be confrontational to someone I very much admire and respect.
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jim, could you share the names of 3 "big name" clubs (not already among the current 147) that you feel would be worthy candidates for ran's list?
Three[size=78%] that come to mind are for different reasons. [/size]
Pine Valley - I have stayed in the cabins on one trip and did a day trip too. They are the #1 club most years in America and they sit within 3 hours of probably 25 million people. I found the Members that I met to be "Custodians" of the game and they were very generous with me. Obviously everyone want to play there, and I think that many members try to accommodate "golfers". Once you get through the gates, I found that everyone is treated in a fantastic "on a voyage" way - the caddies, the players, and the staff.
Winged Foot - It is easy to take cheap shots at WF as they continue down the USGA path of more US Opens, but this summer I was hosted with my son during "Fleet Week" in NYC. We were guest of a friend, but "The Club" was hosting 30 members of the Military that day from Fleet Week. They had both Officers and Enlisted golfers as they just wanted to share their special place. On a regular day, it is pretty hard to not run into a Clergy Member at WF.
Cypress Point - A large number of GCAers have played it during the Uncle Bob era. I did not even understand what an "unescorted foursome" was until I played Cypress Point.
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Good point on Winged Foot and it’s generosity toward clergy.
Unescorted happens at more than a few places.
As for Pine Valley.... imo loses many points in this exercise because most members bring their own game. Nice to show up unannounced and play with other members.
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I shared the list and the preamble with several friends at my home club, Crooked Stick. I received emails back from several expressing surprise that CS didn't make the list. A very healthy exchange of dialogue has followed which I believe has the potential to open minds to the principles behind Ran's list and exercise. This has the potential to raise our collective golf IQ, and subsequently, it has the potential to achieve a refocus on that which is most important. In my eyes, the ultimate end result could be a reduction in the cost of golf. As the game struggles to find its next generation, raising the price of entry into golf is clearly counter to any goal in that regard. Randolph, I am proud of you for using your GCA pulpit to try to effect change that has the potential to improve the game we all love. I do believe this website has changed golf in some ways over the years, and this has been a good thing. Your Custodians of the Game concept has the potential to do the greatest good GCA has yet accomplished. Bravo.
TS
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In my mind, the real custodians of the game are the clubs/courses that answer yes to most of the following:
Does that course make itself available to junior and amateur tournaments, both male and female?
Does it let high school teams, both male and female, practice and have matches? And doing so while waving the fees?
Does it host local, section and state events?
Does it host First Tee or outreach clinics?
Are the male and female juniors in the club/course treated equally?
Does the club/course treat male and female members/golfers equally?
Does it make itself available to college teams, both male and female, to practice and play?
Does it wave the fees for those visits, or reduce the costs? Does it let them carry their bags?
How often do the caddies get to play? Is it more than just once a year? More than Mondays?
Is there a caddie and/or employee scholarship?
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Colin, I can't read all the small font, but I do also feel courses (particularly private courses) have an obligation to make their course accessible for youth/hs/college play as well as local qualifying to earn our respect as a golfing community. Specifically an accolade such as Ran's 147 Custodians list. It shouldn't be easy to make this list and the criteria is pretty stringent and with suggestions such as these will only continue to pinpoint the truly deserving.
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In my mind, the real custodians of the game are the clubs/courses that answer yes to most of the following:
Does that course make itself available to junior and amateur tournaments, both male and female?
Does it let high school teams, both male and female, practice and have matches? And doing so while waving the fees?
Does it host local, section and state events?
Does it host First Tee or outreach clinics?
Are the male and female juniors in the club/course treated equally?
Does the club/course treat male and female members/golfers equally?
Does it make itself available to college teams, both male and female, to practice and play?
Does it wave the fees for those visits, or reduce the costs? Does it let them carry their bags?
How often do the caddies get to play? Is it more than just once a year? More than Mondays?
Is there a caddie and/or employee scholarship?
Colin,
I think Ran's criteria largely are spot on when we are talking about how the player interacts with the course (playing the game). I think that yours are truly excellent when we are talking about the sport and culture of golf writ large.
Ira
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In my mind, the real custodians of the game are the clubs/courses that answer yes to most of the following:
Does that course make itself available to junior and amateur tournaments, both male and female?
Does it let high school teams, both male and female, practice and have matches? And doing so while waving the fees?
Does it host local, section and state events?
Does it host First Tee or outreach clinics?
Are the male and female juniors in the club/course treated equally?
Does the club/course treat male and female members/golfers equally?
Does it make itself available to college teams, both male and female, to practice and play?
Does it wave the fees for those visits, or reduce the costs? Does it let them carry their bags?
How often do the caddies get to play? Is it more than just once a year? More than Mondays?
Is there a caddie and/or employee scholarship?
Colin, Your list is terrific and are things that all clubs should consider doing for the purpose of promoting the game of golf and its future. But, you may be missing the larger point Ran is making. If we do all the things on your list in the spirit of bringing new people to the game, but at the same time we are adding expense to what it costs to play this game (higher maintenance costs, forcing people to take carts or caddies at certain times), how many of those new golfers will be willing to stay in the game if it costs too damn much?
TS
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Good and insightful posts by both Ira and Colin.
And the different 'facets' of a golf course's role/function that Ira notes brought much to my mind.
But I shouldn't and won't put the resulting 'list' on here, because as Ran pointed out, this is *his* list.
I really liked and appreciated Ran's list -- but just to say: these two posts above seem to open a window in my thinking re: my own/additional lenses and value systems.
P
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In my mind, the real custodians of the game are the clubs/courses that answer yes to most of the following:
Does that course make itself available to junior and amateur tournaments, both male and female?
Does it let high school teams, both male and female, practice and have matches? And doing so while waving the fees?
Does it host local, section and state events?
Does it host First Tee or outreach clinics?
Are the male and female juniors in the club/course treated equally?
Does the club/course treat male and female members/golfers equally?
Does it make itself available to college teams, both male and female, to practice and play?
Does it wave the fees for those visits, or reduce the costs? Does it let them carry their bags?
How often do the caddies get to play? Is it more than just once a year? More than Mondays?
Is there a caddie and/or employee scholarship?
An interesting list and seemingly certain country centred. It does though seem to encompass quite a number of what I will call ‘give aways’ on which there could be different perspectives.
Some folks see ‘their’ club as ‘their’ property. See their club, ‘their’ ‘private members club’, as just that, ‘private’. A place of peace and tranquility where they can get away from the hurly-burly and distractions of the outside world. Indeed at clubs were the members are shareholders it is ‘their’ club.
Playing devils advocate for a moment, why should they at ‘their’ club, be asked/required to give away for free anything? Indeed it’s not even free, someone else, the members/shareholder are paying for it. And it’s ‘their’ club. Would they be expected to give up ‘their’ house, garden, car, effectively paying out of their own pocket for such to be used by others, irrespective of who they might be? Some may see this as giving sponsorship or as being charitable or as ‘doing something for the game’. Others might not like it at all.
Now I’m not suggesting that items on this list are wrong or inappropriate or begrudging some clubs who operate in such a way or who some wish would operate in such a way, as I said I’m playing devils advocate here, but there are different perspectives which ought to be at least acknowledged.
Atb
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Ran states next to Eastward Ho! that New York, California, Pennsylvania, Massachusetts, and Ohio are the top 5 golf states in the US.
I would like to stick up for my home state of NJ as I think it should be in the top 5:
Pine Valley, Somerset Hills, Plainfield, Ridgewood, Baltusrol, Hollywood, Mountain Ridge, Essex County CC, Forsgate, Hidden Creek.......
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Haven’t played all of them to comment from first hand experience but hard to argue with any of the 147 courses on the list. What is most amazing to me is that I could easily add 147 more that probably wouldn’t get to much debate! What a fantastic game we play to have so many wonderful and varied venues 😊
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Ran states next to Eastward Ho! that New York, California, Pennsylvania, Massachusetts, and Ohio are the top 5 golf states in the US.
I would like to stick up for my home state of NJ as I think it should be in the top 5:
Pine Valley, Somerset Hills, Plainfield, Ridgewood, Baltusrol, Hollywood, Mountain Ridge, Essex County CC, Forsgate, Hidden Creek.......
+1 on NJ
Knickerbocker, Montclair Golf Club, Arcola, Morris County, Hackensack, Atlantic City CC, Seaview, Alpine, Knoll West, Canoe Brook......
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Ran states next to Eastward Ho! that New York, California, Pennsylvania, Massachusetts, and Ohio are the top 5 golf states in the US.
I would like to stick up for my home state of NJ as I think it should be in the top 5:
Pine Valley, Somerset Hills, Plainfield, Ridgewood, Baltusrol, Hollywood, Mountain Ridge, Essex County CC, Forsgate, Hidden Creek.......
+1 on NJ
Knickerbocker, Montclair Golf Club, Arcola, Morris County, Hackensack, Atlantic City CC, Seaview, Alpine, Knoll West, Canoe Brook......
Although not fitting with Ran’s criteria, also add Galloway national and Hamilton farm.
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Ran states next to Eastward Ho! that New York, California, Pennsylvania, Massachusetts, and Ohio are the top 5 golf states in the US.
I would like to stick up for my home state of NJ as I think it should be in the top 5:
Pine Valley, Somerset Hills, Plainfield, Ridgewood, Baltusrol, Hollywood, Mountain Ridge, Essex County CC, Forsgate, Hidden Creek.......
I think Bandon could make a case for beating that on its own, much less some of the other top notch courses in Oregon be included...
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Ran states next to Eastward Ho! that New York, California, Pennsylvania, Massachusetts, and Ohio are the top 5 golf states in the US.
I would like to stick up for my home state of NJ as I think it should be in the top 5:
Pine Valley, Somerset Hills, Plainfield, Ridgewood, Baltusrol, Hollywood, Mountain Ridge, Essex County CC, Forsgate, Hidden Creek.......
I think Bandon could make a case for beating that on its own, much less some of the other top notch courses in Oregon be included...
NJ gets no respect!
I admit Bandon is remarkable, with all four of its courses ranked by Golf Magazine US Top 100 between 17-57. No other courses from Oregon made that list.
NJ has 6 courses in the top 100, including #1.
NY - 15
CA - 14
MA - 7
NJ - 6
OH - 6
FL - 6
PA - 5
https://www.golf.com/courses-and-travel/photo/2017/08/16/top-100-golf-courses-united-states-2017 (https://www.golf.com/courses-and-travel/photo/2017/08/16/top-100-golf-courses-united-states-2017)
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Ran states next to Eastward Ho! that New York, California, Pennsylvania, Massachusetts, and Ohio are the top 5 golf states in the US.
I would like to stick up for my home state of NJ as I think it should be in the top 5:
Pine Valley, Somerset Hills, Plainfield, Ridgewood, Baltusrol, Hollywood, Mountain Ridge, Essex County CC, Forsgate, Hidden Creek.......
I think Bandon could make a case for beating that on its own, much less some of the other top notch courses in Oregon be included...
NJ gets no respect!
I admit Bandon is remarkable, with all four of its courses ranked by Golf Magazine US Top 100 between 17-57. No other courses from Oregon made that list.
NJ has 6 courses in the top 100, including #1.
NY - 15
CA - 14
MA - 7
NJ - 6
OH - 6
FL - 6
PA - 5
https://www.golf.com/courses-and-travel/photo/2017/08/16/top-100-golf-courses-united-states-2017 (https://www.golf.com/courses-and-travel/photo/2017/08/16/top-100-golf-courses-united-states-2017)
Well even some who work in NYC respond to the question of where they live, "Just West of Manhattan." ;)
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Ran states next to Eastward Ho! that New York, California, Pennsylvania, Massachusetts, and Ohio are the top 5 golf states in the US.
I would like to stick up for my home state of NJ as I think it should be in the top 5:
Pine Valley, Somerset Hills, Plainfield, Ridgewood, Baltusrol, Hollywood, Mountain Ridge, Essex County CC, Forsgate, Hidden Creek.......
I think Bandon could make a case for beating that on its own, much less some of the other top notch courses in Oregon be included...
NJ gets no respect!
I admit Bandon is remarkable, with all four of its courses ranked by Golf Magazine US Top 100 between 17-57. No other courses from Oregon made that list.
NJ has 6 courses in the top 100, including #1.
NY - 15
CA - 14
MA - 7
NJ - 6
OH - 6
FL - 6
PA - 5
https://www.golf.com/courses-and-travel/photo/2017/08/16/top-100-golf-courses-united-states-2017 (https://www.golf.com/courses-and-travel/photo/2017/08/16/top-100-golf-courses-united-states-2017)
Well even some who work in NYC respond to the question of where they live, "Just West of Manhattan." ;)
Or northeast
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Ran states next to Eastward Ho! that New York, California, Pennsylvania, Massachusetts, and Ohio are the top 5 golf states in the US.
I would like to stick up for my home state of NJ as I think it should be in the top 5:
Pine Valley, Somerset Hills, Plainfield, Ridgewood, Baltusrol, Hollywood, Mountain Ridge, Essex County CC, Forsgate, Hidden Creek.......
I think Bandon could make a case for beating that on its own, much less some of the other top notch courses in Oregon be included...
NJ gets no respect!
I admit Bandon is remarkable, with all four of its courses ranked by Golf Magazine US Top 100 between 17-57. No other courses from Oregon made that list.
NJ has 6 courses in the top 100, including #1.
NY - 15
CA - 14
MA - 7
NJ - 6
OH - 6
FL - 6
PA - 5
https://www.golf.com/courses-and-travel/photo/2017/08/16/top-100-golf-courses-united-states-2017 (https://www.golf.com/courses-and-travel/photo/2017/08/16/top-100-golf-courses-united-states-2017)
Well even some who work in NYC respond to the question of where they live, "Just West of Manhattan." ;)
Or northeast, but CT does not have as much golf credibility as NJ ;)
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(https://brilliantmaps.com/wp-content/uploads/view-from-9th-ave.jpg)
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I just re-read this list and was struck by the fact that there are 4 courses in Ireland, 15 in Scotland, and 27 in England !
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I just re-read this list and was struck by the fact that there are 4 courses in Ireland, 15 in Scotland, and 27 in England !
Look at the courses by country....just about the same ratio there. I think Ran's travel preferences are revealed in his lists.
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I just re-read this list and was struck by the fact that there are 4 courses in Ireland, 15 in Scotland, and 27 in England !
In the future I think we may see these numbers rise unless Ran gets self conscious about the course locations.
Ciao
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I just re-read this list and was struck by the fact that there are 4 courses in Ireland, 15 in Scotland, and 27 in England !
Or his travel locations are driven by his course preferences.
Look at the courses by country....just about the same ratio there. I think Ran's travel preferences are revealed in his lists.
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Looking through this list again, I'm struck by the range of courses on here. And looking at the criteria in the preamble, I think it's a great list. The only glaring oversight in my opinion is the omission of Kittansett. It seems to fit the criteria perfectly. And the work that has been done on the course in the last few years, clearing out all the trees, is remarkable. There is now an ocean view on pretty much every hole. And while I know golf architecture shouldn't be judged on views, the point is that by exposing the land in that way, the wind is now a significant factor on practically every shot. It's one of the few courses where I find myself smiling when I get to each tee box. For my money, Kittansett is just behind Dornoch as the most enjoyable course I've played.
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So what will be course 148? We are a a little over a month away...... suspense.
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- Apparently, an error was made by me in including an American club that features a rigorous caddie policy; it will be removed this year and I will so note when it happens and what replaced it.
Just noticed this.....looks like we will have 2 new additions to the list?
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I grew up not 20 miles from Kittansett, a very good course that made the right decision to have Gil
Hanse renovate the place. But it is very exclusive and only allow play accompanied by a member. Our host the last time we played there was a great grand daughter of someone who came over on the Mayflower!
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I just made it back from Bermuda and Mid Ocean Club checks all the boxes for me to be included in the 147+2 Custodians - not that I get a vote.
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I grew up not 20 miles from Kittansett, a very good course that made the right decision to have Gil
Hanse renovate the place. But it is very exclusive and only allow play accompanied by a member. Our host the last time we played there was a great grand daughter of someone who came over on the Mayflower!
Kittansett allows unaccompanied play at slower times in the season
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If at all possible I would appreciate a sub heading of the 147 custodians that lists any clubs that once made an appearance but have since been replaced; as well as a list of new entries for the given year. Would be interesting (for me at least) to follow along with changes year to year.
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The only course on Ran's list that really shouldn't be there on this basis is Ardfin. I know he loved it - he gave it a 9 on the Doak Scale - but I suspect the only reason he gained access to the course was so he could give them a high score. [Well, that and he is old friends with the designer.] That these ultra-private one-man courses open their doors to raters, and pretty much nobody else, is a little sleazy. I don't think it qualifies them as Custodians of the Game.
Tom--could not agree more. I found soft slow fairways (I was told they could not sand cap the fairways...they could only sand cap the greens, tees and green surrounds), a few way too long forced carries, some long green to tee tracks, and a course that is extremely difficult to walk. Yes it is IMO the most spectacular sight for a golf course I have ever encountered, but I would not put the observation deck of the Empire State Bldg or the view of the Grand Canyon on this list. Other than that, I love the list/compilation. Have played 140 and am missing 9. Hope expect to reduce the 9 by at least 3 this year.
Also agree with you regarding the exclusionary issue. I started w this game playing simply awful munis in Queens, NY...and have ended up playing just about every great and just about every "exclusionary" course in the world. Takes some effort, as do most wonderful things in this world.
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I shared the list and the preamble with several friends at my home club, Crooked Stick. I received emails back from several expressing surprise that CS didn't make the list. A very healthy exchange of dialogue has followed which I believe has the potential to open minds to the principles behind Ran's list and exercise. This has the potential to raise our collective golf IQ, and subsequently, it has the potential to achieve a refocus on that which is most important. In my eyes, the ultimate end result could be a reduction in the cost of golf. As the game struggles to find its next generation, raising the price of entry into golf is clearly counter to any goal in that regard. Randolph, I am proud of you for using your GCA pulpit to try to effect change that has the potential to improve the game we all love. I do believe this website has changed golf in some ways over the years, and this has been a good thing. Your Custodians of the Game concept has the potential to do the greatest good GCA has yet accomplished. Bravo.
TS
Ted
It is clear, at least in certain sectors, that the cost of golf is sky rocketing. However, demand, at least for the moment, hasn't been tempered. Its a strange world.
Ciao
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Worth reminding ourselves that Ran's criteria for the list is:
. A course that provides engaging puzzles to solve beats one which does not.
- A course where the ball is encouraged to run beats one where it is not.
- A course where you can carry your bag at anytime beats one where you cannot.
- A course where you can play quickly while walking, beats one where you cannot.
- A course that you can enjoy at all ages beats one where you cannot.
- A course with understated maintenance practices beats one with conspicuous green keeping.
- A club that emphasizes the simple game of golf beats one which pursues the trappings of status.
- A course you want to play again and again beats one you only wish to play annually.
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The only course on Ran's list that really shouldn't be there on this basis is Ardfin. I know he loved it - he gave it a 9 on the Doak Scale - but I suspect the only reason he gained access to the course was so he could give them a high score. [Well, that and he is old friends with the designer.] That these ultra-private one-man courses open their doors to raters, and pretty much nobody else, is a little sleazy. I don't think it qualifies them as Custodians of the Game.
Tom--could not agree more. I found soft slow fairways (I was told they could not sand cap the fairways...they could only sand cap the greens, tees and green surrounds), a few way too long forced carries, some long green to tee tracks, and a course that is extremely difficult to walk. Yes it is IMO the most spectacular sight for a golf course I have ever encountered, but I would not put the observation deck of the Empire State Bldg or the view of the Grand Canyon on this list. Other than that, I love the list/compilation. Have played 140 and am missing 9. Hope expect to reduce the 9 by at least 3 this year.
Also agree with you regarding the exclusionary issue. I started w this game playing simply awful munis in Queens, NY...and have ended up playing just about every great and just about every "exclusionary" course in the world. Takes some effort, as do most wonderful things in this world.
Ouch. I can give Tom the benefit of the doubt because his post was from 2018 when the operating model was still in doubt, but I can confirm that anyone can now call up and book a round / stay at Ardfin, so I'd hardly call it sleezy.
Re: Ardfin's qualities as a Custodian, Paul, I take your points in relation to it being on this list, but a lot of what you point out as flaws, are, in my opinion, some of the best aspects of the course. For example, I love some of the longer green to tee walks, which let you explore the setting in ways that make the course and island feel unified. All long walks are not created equal, and I'd put up the walk from 15 to 16 at Cypress as a shining example for how walks can heighten your emotional senses.
Re: forced carries - again, I actually applaud the way Bob and team made the holes feel at one with the land. I totally take the point that lost balls are inevitable, and in general, I'm not a fan of when recoverability is removed, but at the same point, if you start to cut that back, you start to divorce the holes from the surrounds, and in my mind, that's one of the unique features of the course; that it feels so...Jura!
Based on the guidelines, I'm not sure Ardfin does fit on this particular list, but it's also not worth the wack job it just got ;D
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Perhaps the "simple pleasures v trappings of status" criterion is given a much lower weight than the others.
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The only course on Ran's list that really shouldn't be there on this basis is Ardfin. I know he loved it - he gave it a 9 on the Doak Scale - but I suspect the only reason he gained access to the course was so he could give them a high score. [Well, that and he is old friends with the designer.] That these ultra-private one-man courses open their doors to raters, and pretty much nobody else, is a little sleazy. I don't think it qualifies them as Custodians of the Game.
Tom--could not agree more. I found soft slow fairways (I was told they could not sand cap the fairways...they could only sand cap the greens, tees and green surrounds), a few way too long forced carries, some long green to tee tracks, and a course that is extremely difficult to walk. Yes it is IMO the most spectacular sight for a golf course I have ever encountered, but I would not put the observation deck of the Empire State Bldg or the view of the Grand Canyon on this list. Other than that, I love the list/compilation. Have played 140 and am missing 9. Hope expect to reduce the 9 by at least 3 this year.
Also agree with you regarding the exclusionary issue. I started w this game playing simply awful munis in Queens, NY...and have ended up playing just about every great and just about every "exclusionary" course in the world. Takes some effort, as do most wonderful things in this world.
Ouch. I can give Tom the benefit of the doubt because his post was from 2018 when the operating model was still in doubt, but I can confirm that anyone can now call up and book a round / stay at Ardfin, so I'd hardly call it sleezy.
Re: Ardfin's qualities as a Custodian, Paul, I take your points in relation to it being on this list, but a lot of what you point out as flaws, are, in my opinion, some of the best aspects of the course. For example, I love some of the longer green to tee walks, which let you explore the setting in ways that make the course and island feel unified. All long walks are not created equal, and I'd put up the walk from 15 to 16 at Cypress as a shining example for how walks can heighten your emotional senses.
Re: forced carries - again, I actually applaud the way Bob and team made the holes feel at one with the land. I totally take the point that lost balls are inevitable, and in general, I'm not a fan of when recoverability is removed, but at the same point, if you start to cut that back, you start to divorce the holes from the surrounds, and in my mind, that's one of the unique features of the course; that it feels so...Islay!
Based on the guidelines, I'm not sure Ardfin does fit on this particular list, but it's also not worth the wack job it just got ;D
Tim,
Spot on, and most especially when the criticism is coming from a multi-magazine rater who's lifelong primary mission it is to check off every existing, hardly-followed, and self-created list.
While he's undeniably the keeper of the largest course visit spreadsheet known to mankind, even the most basic architecture fan finds little substance to such endeavors. All too often his hustles to furiously bounce from course-to-course in such a pursuit are little more than a prelude to his blog where he can talk about his own score and whatever prodigious amount of driving and travel it entailed.
Several of my non-rater friends journeyed to Ardfin last year, parted with their $$ and were warmly greeted. They loved the experience and intend to go back. There was, and is, nothing "sleazy" about the place. Sadly, Paul's distasteful accusations are 100% baseless.
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When rater turns on rater I fear my job is done.
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I found this thread and posted in hopes of others posting which courses they feel should be included, very quickly it turned into a Kittansett access and which courses should NOT be on the list.
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Steve--
If you would read my prior post you will find that I never called Ardfin sleazy...I did agree with Tom's comment about one owner places that only invite raters...but I believe Tim's reply on that matter put it to bed. I have never criticized Ardfin because of its accessibility (or lack thereof). And I believe Tom's comment in this regard was directed at the course's management not the course itself.
I have criticized Ardfin because of the wetness and softness of its fairways...as have a good number of other highly qualified observers who have played there. I do not understand how a course that for sure "violates" Ran's rule #2 (A course where the ball is encouraged to run beats one where it is not) can be highly rated in Scotland of all places. I have felt the same way about Loch Lomond (although have not been back since its latest attempt to fix its drainage issues). Sometimes there are issues that even investment bankers $$ cannot fix. At least to me, "fast and firm" is an absolutely necessary trait for greatness in GB&I if not everywhere. And certainly true for a World #20 and Scotland #5 in my opinion.
I have also criticized Ardfin for its long carries off certain tees (as a result of only two sets of tee boxes when I played it...I gather they now have 4) and long carries into at least two greens (11 and 14). I call your attention to Ran's rule #5 (A course that you can enjoy at all ages beats one where you cannot) and suggest to you that most golfers above the age of 70 cannot play these two holes and finish them and I would suggest that is true for most women golfers as well.
I continue to feel that Ardfin is the most spectacular site for golf I have ever seen. But whether it is for rating the "top", best", or "favorite" courses or "Custodians" the quality of the golf should be paramount, and it is there that I feel Ardfin fails to meet the test of "greatness". And by the way, with only 149 Custodians, some 99.61% of the courses in the world fail that test!
So Steve, rather than simply saying my points are baseless or ranting about my goals , please respond to the above two points about the subject at hand. And how you found the course on your last visit. When you walked all 18...did you feel like you wanted to immediately go back to the first tee and replay all 18?
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Paul,
Semantically, your enthusiastic (could not agree more...and Also agree with you...") and overt support for Tom Doak's calling "these ultra-private one-man courses open their doors to raters, and pretty much nobody else, is a little sleazy." is more than enough validation for my statement. Endorsement = Agreement in most people's book.
FWIW, management is entitled to do whatever it wants, and the facts are that Greg Coffey (its owner and never an investment banker) didn't want ANY raters for the first year. Only the advocacy of others allowed any of us to step foot on that property back then. Ellerston, for example, which we've both seen, couldn't give a rat's arse about any raters. Others feel the same. It's a wee bit hypocritical that several courses in the Midwest made themselves available only to GD back in their early days....just about the same time I'd wager you were rating them for the first time for that magazine.
Your architectural critique is a bit weak as well. The softness and wetness won't survive the owner's recent and current efforts to mitigate it....and let's be realistic, new courses are not best judged for conditioning at debut. I recall seeing one of the GCA's absolute most bouncy favorites it's first season and it played like velcro. I went back a few years later and it was a trampoline!
Sure, there are several (but not more than 2-3) forced carries at Ardfin. So what? There are some at Fishers Island or Maidstone as well. Given they set tees for mostly sturdier players on the Isle of Jura, perhaps it was best for you to hit from the other side? BTW...Do you knock down Pine Valley for it's 16 forced carries??
I do concur I may not have wanted to "immediately go back to the first tee and replay all 18." However, I know I don't want to do that at Kiawah Ocean, French Lick, Chambers Bay, Lytham & St. Annes either!
Finally, I'd vote for the likes of a Hooper, a Rockaway Hunt, or an Old Moray ahead of the aforementioned, but it ain't my list. Cheers.
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On 3 things we agree...(1) management of a course has the right to decide who plays or sees the course. And they should and do pay the price for any mistakes in that regard...and reap rewards for good decisions. My guess is there were some owners that only allowed GD panelists on them back then as well as now...just like there are some who only allowed or now allow GOLF panelists. That is their decision and it is not clear what the big deal about it is.
Also (2) it seems we also agree regarding the soft wet conditions at Ardfin (and it is now some 4.5 years since I first played it). Regarding your forecast of improvements, my sense is that lists should be based on what is there NOW, not what is being worked on or hoped for. When they solve those problems and others, then they may deserve a place on lists...but not before in my humble opinion.
Finally (3) we both agree this is Ran's list and his choice. And in our still free country it is our right to agree and/or disagree
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Of course Ardfin isn’t a Custodian of Golf… it’s ridiculous to think that it might be.
This list is Ran’s personal list of places that make him feel good about golf. I have my own one…. Really, they’re the only lists that matter.
They are not a “Best” list, maybe not even a “Favourite” list, certainly not a list that should be put on a pedestal as being better examples of something than hundreds of other courses… They are merely lists of courses that to any particular person have a little je ne sais quoi…. Call them your Desert Island pick, the ones you’d be happy to have as a collection to play for the rest of your life…
I’ve a similar list of 50 albums that just give me a tingle.
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Does anyone have the list of courses that Ran took off / put on / replaced ?
I notice that Dormie Club is not on the list anymore.
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Does anyone have the list of courses that Ran took off / put on / replaced ?
I notice that Dormie Club is not on the list anymore.
Paul - I've kept the different versions. Below are the changes to each:
REMOVED FROM 148 TO 149
STREAMSONG (Blue)
WOLF POINT RANCH
OLD MACDONALD
HIDDEN CREEK
DORMIE
CANTERBURY
THE DUNES, SC
GEORGE WRIGHT
MID OCEAN
ROARING GAP
GOSWICK
NEW TO 149
OAKLAND HILLS (South)
ST. PATRICK’S LINKS
LES BORDES (NEW)
CRUDEN BAY
BROOKSIDE
KINGSLEY
SOUTHERN PINES
ROYAL ASHDOWN FOREST
ARCADIA BLUFFS (South)
BLOOMFIELD HILLS
RAWLS COURSE AT TEXAS TECH
BELVEDERE
REMOVED FROM 147 TO 148
YALE
CASA DE CAMPO
MILWAUKEE CC
WHISTLING ROCK
HAMBURGER
TACONIC
NEWCASTLE
HUMEWOOD
FRANKLIN HILLS
CANTERBURY, OH
THE GOLF HOUSE CLUB, ELIE
BALTIMORE (Five Farms)
ALDEBURGH
KENNEMER
ROYAL ST. DAVID'S
WE-KO-PA
LITTLE ASTON
FALSTERBO
MID-PINES
ISLE OF HARRIS
NEW TO 148
OCEAN COURSE AT KIAWAH ISLAND
TRINITY FOREST
HOLLYWOOD, NJ
HARBOUR TOWN
SCOTTSDALE NATIONAL (The Other Course)
KITTANSETT
VICTORIA
THE HARVESTER
DAVENPORT
ROYAL MELBOURNE (East)
CHAMBERS BAY
GAMBLE SANDS
BEVERLY
DORMIE
OMAHA CC
LOST FARM
CANTERBURY
TOBACCO ROAD
THE DUNES, SC
MID OCEAN
RHODE ISLAND CC
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I am as interested as to why some clubs were deleted as why some came on.
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I am as interested as to why some clubs were deleted as why some came on.
I hope to never find out because the reason I think makes me very happy.
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I see that Isle of Harris is removed but the second hole there still has pride of place on the hero image!!! ;D
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I guess Ran doesn't like the long sock rule at Elie 😃
Ciao
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I didn't realise there qas rhat much change from year to year, thanks for the history Ted.
Temporary custodians perhaps.
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Entertaining thread ;)
Prior to this thread, I would've had playing Ardfin close to last in the long list of Inner and Outer Hebrides courses I have yet to, and would like to experience.
So many raw, humble courses in such wild settings-the few I've played want me to seek out more.
I'm generallly not a private exclusive course box ticker, preferring more humble courses for travel and relaxation.
(Example i played Arrowtown twice in a week in Queenstown and chose not to play any of its splashy neighbors)
Ironically, after reading this thread, I want to see Ardfin more-perhaps not as much as the more local raw stuff(Iona etc.), but I would look to include it under the right circumstances.(and yes cost and value would come into it)
Ran's endorsement certainly has high merit, despite the fact that it seems counterintuitive(to me at least) that Ardfin be a "Custodian of the game"
Even Paul's non endorsement for Ardfin as a Custodian has appeal with his decription of the site as "the most spectacular site for a golf course I have ever encountered" (pretty heady stuff given his golf travel resume and the fact that he had other criticisms).
I've seen some pretty spectacular sites for golf courses, some so spectacular that a course probably shouldn't have been built, so the site itself seems worth the journey.
Of course it doesn't hurt that there are multiple other humble gems (realtively speaking)nearby that would be included and highlight such a journey.
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IMO: that a quality golf course exists, and that it serves golfers (it matters not how many) and honours/reflects the spirit of the game and of its fields of play, is enough to qualify it for custodian status. That I may never get to play it, that millions of us may never get to play it, seems to me completely besides the point. Such a golf course has inherent value, independent certainly of how it might benefit me. The alternative is to take the kind of utilitarian ethos/approach that has lead to so much mediocrity in so many areas of life, including golf.
I was talking with a documentary filmmaker about this issue just yesterday. So many people want to write off courses that are very private, based on the "tree falling in the forest" question, and some jealousy that they will never be able to get there.
But, in very few cases is it actually true that you will never be allowed to play a course, if you have a sincere interest in doing so. I started writing letters to clubs when I was 18-19 years old and had no connections in the golf business whatsoever -- and in the first year I was welcomed with open arms at places like Seminole, Merion, LACC, and SFGC. Of course, not everyone can write as good a letter as I could when I was 19, but there are some very nice people behind some of those closed doors. And they do take the traditions of the game much more seriously than the run of the mill club, in part, because they can afford to!
The only course on Ran's list that really shouldn't be there on this basis is Ardfin. I know he loved it - he gave it a 9 on the Doak Scale - but I suspect the only reason he gained access to the course was so he could give them a high score. [Well, that and he is old friends with the designer.] That these ultra-private one-man courses open their doors to raters, and pretty much nobody else, is a little sleazy. I don't think it qualifies them as Custodians of the Game.
This is the entire quote from 2018, in context, that some have objected to. I will stand behind it today. I didn't directly call Ardfin sleazy per se [note that I have never tried to secure access to play there, and have no current intention of doing so] but used guilt by association with the category of super-private clubs that seek recognition by opening doors to raters only, as it sounded like that's what they were doing at the time.
So, since several distinguished DG participants have objected to my comment, perhaps they would like to respond in the spirit of full disclosure:
1. Did you pay full boat to play there?
2. Do you think anyone would be paying $1000+ to go there if the course weren't ranked [possibly by guys who didn't pay] ?
Also, maybe it's true that Ellerston couldn't care less whether it was rated or not. Maybe this phenomenon is more about the status-seeking of the people who go there to rate it, than status seeking by the owners of the golf course? If so, I'll change my description from "sleazy" to "sad".
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REMOVED FROM 148 TO 149
STREAMSONG (Blue)
WOLF POINT RANCH
OLD MACDONALD
HIDDEN CREEK
DORMIE
CANTERBURY
THE DUNES, SC
GEORGE WRIGHT
MID OCEAN
ROARING GAP
GOSWICK
NEW TO 149
OAKLAND HILLS (South)
ST. PATRICK’S LINKS
LES BORDES (NEW)
CRUDEN BAY
BROOKSIDE
KINGSLEY
SOUTHERN PINES
ROYAL ASHDOWN FOREST
ARCADIA BLUFFS (South)
BLOOMFIELD HILLS
RAWLS COURSE AT TEXAS TECH
BELVEDERE
I have to admit that I was happy when the original list came out that I had so many courses listed, and that Ran didn't have some quota in his head of how many courses any designer could have on his list.
But then Ted had to point out that when two of my courses got added to the list this year, two of my other courses dropped off. :D I'm sure it's just a coincidence.
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REMOVED FROM 148 TO 149
STREAMSONG (Blue)
WOLF POINT RANCH
OLD MACDONALD
HIDDEN CREEK
DORMIE
CANTERBURY
THE DUNES, SC
GEORGE WRIGHT
MID OCEAN
ROARING GAP
GOSWICK
NEW TO 149
OAKLAND HILLS (South)
ST. PATRICK’S LINKS
LES BORDES (NEW)
CRUDEN BAY
BROOKSIDE
KINGSLEY
SOUTHERN PINES
ROYAL ASHDOWN FOREST
ARCADIA BLUFFS (South)
BLOOMFIELD HILLS
RAWLS COURSE AT TEXAS TECH
BELVEDERE
I have to admit that I was happy when the original list came out that I had so many courses listed, and that Ran didn't have some quota in his head of how many courses any designer could have on his list.
But then Ted had to point out that when two of my courses got added to the list this year, two of my other courses dropped off. :D I'm sure it's just a coincidence.
I gotta believe Ran has spreading the love regarding archies, location and possibly styles in the back of his mind.
Ciao
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IMO: that a quality golf course exists, and that it serves golfers (it matters not how many) and honours/reflects the spirit of the game and of its fields of play, is enough to qualify it for custodian status. That I may never get to play it, that millions of us may never get to play it, seems to me completely besides the point. Such a golf course has inherent value, independent certainly of how it might benefit me. The alternative is to take the kind of utilitarian ethos/approach that has lead to so much mediocrity in so many areas of life, including golf.
I was talking with a documentary filmmaker about this issue just yesterday. So many people want to write off courses that are very private, based on the "tree falling in the forest" question, and some jealousy that they will never be able to get there.
But, in very few cases is it actually true that you will never be allowed to play a course, if you have a sincere interest in doing so. I started writing letters to clubs when I was 18-19 years old and had no connections in the golf business whatsoever -- and in the first year I was welcomed with open arms at places like Seminole, Merion, LACC, and SFGC. Of course, not everyone can write as good a letter as I could when I was 19, but there are some very nice people behind some of those closed doors. And they do take the traditions of the game much more seriously than the run of the mill club, in part, because they can afford to!
The only course on Ran's list that really shouldn't be there on this basis is Ardfin. I know he loved it - he gave it a 9 on the Doak Scale - but I suspect the only reason he gained access to the course was so he could give them a high score. [Well, that and he is old friends with the designer.] That these ultra-private one-man courses open their doors to raters, and pretty much nobody else, is a little sleazy. I don't think it qualifies them as Custodians of the Game.
This is the entire quote from 2018, in context, that some have objected to. I will stand behind it today. I didn't directly call Ardfin sleazy per se [note that I have never tried to secure access to play there, and have no current intention of doing so] but used guilt by association with the category of super-private clubs that seek recognition by opening doors to raters only, as it sounded like that's what they were doing at the time.
So, since several distinguished DG participants have objected to my comment, perhaps they would like to respond in the spirit of full disclosure:
1. Did you pay full boat to play there?
2. Do you think anyone would be paying $1000+ to go there if the course weren't ranked [possibly by guys who didn't pay] ?
Also, maybe it's true that Ellerston couldn't care less whether it was rated or not. Maybe this phenomenon is more about the status-seeking of the people who go there to rate it, than status seeking by the owners of the golf course? If so, I'll change my description from "sleazy" to "sad".
Tom,
You are right that at one point, access was tight, and when you wrote that, it did seem like it might be another Ellerston, but I was happy to set the record straight as they are now open to the public. Did they open the door to raters exclusively at first? I know some who played it before I did that were raters, and some that weren't (for example, I believe they had a trip for tour companies). I don't think this is much different to any other high-profile opening, it's just marketing and PR. Granted, their 'soft-launch' certainly seemed longer than most!
In full disclosure, as I don't think I have anything to hide (but maybe I do!)
1. I'm not sure they had established a full boat rate at the time I played, but I didn't pay what they ask now. Though I will caveat to say it wasn't free :)
2. I 100% think people would go there, and even before it was ranked, what I said to those that asked is the same that I say now: it's worth seeing for 3 key reasons: 1 - there are holes there that I have genuinely never seen anywhere else, meaning it's worth a special trip; 2 - the routing is quite clever, and I think it's quite neat how it starts on the cliff top holes, works its way inland, then rushes down to the sea with a string of thrilling holes before tacking back. Pebble might be close, but even at 18, you're not walking on the shore as you are at Ardfin. All the holes feel cohesive and connected, but have different character; 3 - it integrates the surrounds in so well, that you couldn't replicate a lot of those holes even if you wanted to. Whether its the chasm you hit over on 2, or the boulders in the fairway at 9, it incorporated a lot of the natural elements of the property into its holes.
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IMO: that a quality golf course exists, and that it serves golfers (it matters not how many) and honours/reflects the spirit of the game and of its fields of play, is enough to qualify it for custodian status. That I may never get to play it, that millions of us may never get to play it, seems to me completely besides the point. Such a golf course has inherent value, independent certainly of how it might benefit me. The alternative is to take the kind of utilitarian ethos/approach that has lead to so much mediocrity in so many areas of life, including golf.
I was talking with a documentary filmmaker about this issue just yesterday. So many people want to write off courses that are very private, based on the "tree falling in the forest" question, and some jealousy that they will never be able to get there.
But, in very few cases is it actually true that you will never be allowed to play a course, if you have a sincere interest in doing so. I started writing letters to clubs when I was 18-19 years old and had no connections in the golf business whatsoever -- and in the first year I was welcomed with open arms at places like Seminole, Merion, LACC, and SFGC. Of course, not everyone can write as good a letter as I could when I was 19, but there are some very nice people behind some of those closed doors. And they do take the traditions of the game much more seriously than the run of the mill club, in part, because they can afford to!
The only course on Ran's list that really shouldn't be there on this basis is Ardfin. I know he loved it - he gave it a 9 on the Doak Scale - but I suspect the only reason he gained access to the course was so he could give them a high score. [Well, that and he is old friends with the designer.] That these ultra-private one-man courses open their doors to raters, and pretty much nobody else, is a little sleazy. I don't think it qualifies them as Custodians of the Game.
This is the entire quote from 2018, in context, that some have objected to. I will stand behind it today. I didn't directly call Ardfin sleazy per se [note that I have never tried to secure access to play there, and have no current intention of doing so] but used guilt by association with the category of super-private clubs that seek recognition by opening doors to raters only, as it sounded like that's what they were doing at the time.
So, since several distinguished DG participants have objected to my comment, perhaps they would like to respond in the spirit of full disclosure:
1. Did you pay full boat to play there?
2. Do you think anyone would be paying $1000+ to go there if the course weren't ranked [possibly by guys who didn't pay] ?
Also, maybe it's true that Ellerston couldn't care less whether it was rated or not. Maybe this phenomenon is more about the status-seeking of the people who go there to rate it, than status seeking by the owners of the golf course? If so, I'll change my description from "sleazy" to "sad".
Tom,
I think even with the semantic dilution of not directly calling them "sleazy," your quote wasn't accurate when applied to Ardfin.
One of my partners in a new venture worked closely for decades with Greg Coffey, Ardfin's founder and owner, and according to him, Coffey originally had no plans to even open the course to anyone but his family and friends but when faced with the reality of maintaining and operating what he had built, pivoted to allowing outside play, albeit at a hefty fee. This is not dissimilar to an Ellerston, a Porcupine, a Sunnylands. Your "guilt by association" was simply painting everything with the same brush...deserved or not. Neither "sleazy" nor "sad" really fit.
To your (very fair) questions:
1. Yes, booked in advance. That said, it comes with an exceptional set of meals and allows for as much play as you want. It's a better deal IMO than Pebble or Whistling Straights.
2. Absolutely. Like it or not, we are living in a Gilded Age that has seen significant wealth accumulated by all sorts. A good number of high-rolling golfers have the means to travel by private aircraft or by boat and want especially unique experiential adventures. In that league, Ardfin isn't so dissimilar to some of the venues you've contributed to. For example, I know of a 10 person bachelor party that had participants from the US and Europe all descend on it for several days.
I'm told they are tightly booked through 2022 so I guess so. I don't think in this case "ratings" for it matter that much, if at all.
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Does anybody know which courses were axed and added for the 150 edition?
Ciao
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One of the courses I’m particularly familiar with on this listing, a yee olde, very rural and rustic, under the usual radar type course, is immensely proud to have been included and importantly has gained a considerable number of additional visitors, both national and international, since it’s inclusion. I would imagine other courses of a similar ilk feel the same and have benefited accordingly as well.
The listing has also gained considerable traction recently after being highlighted on social media.
Atb
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Does anybody know which courses were axed and added for the 150 edition?
Ciao
I know Hidden Creek and Dormie are no longer on the list.
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Entertaining thread ;)
Even Paul's non endorsement for Ardfin as a Custodian has appeal with his decription of the site as "the most spectacular site for a golf course I have ever encountered" (pretty heady stuff given his golf travel resume and the fact that he had other criticisms).
Jeff--Let me be clear. First of all, I love Ran's concept and IMO his golf architecture "eyes" are probably the best and quickest I have ever seen. But I have never understood the inclusion of Ardfin on these lists. I played it 1x back in 2017 (was comped and I think my wife's round was comped as well). I learned a lot about the issues they faced in building Ardfin, including the fact that Jura had no natural sand on the entire island...all sand had to be brought in by barge to a single dock. Note that one of the people in our foursome was the guy who oversaw the construction.
I stand by my comment that it is the single most spectacular course I have ever seen or played. I would also say that if someone built a course that crossed the Grand Canyon a few times, that course would be even more spectacular...but also worse than Ardfin!!
I would not include in my World Top (or Best) 250 courses. My point here is that IMHO views, etc are important but far from sufficient to "make" a course great. I have two major issues w Ardfin.
First...they wanted to cap the entire course w sand...but as windy (and exposed) as the site is, the sand would blow away before plantings and vegetation could hold it in place. So as a result (as I was told and experienced), they caped the tees and green sites and surrounds which are small enough to be protected temporarily from the elements. But the fairways did not receive sand capping. I found the greens to be superb...nice and firm...but the fairways were soft and wet. Yes, I was just there one day...but know several others who had the exact same reaction from their visits...in fact while I did not keep track of these comments I would guess that some 60-70% of those I asked had similar reactions to mine regarding this issue and the other 30-40% (including Ran) did not. To my mind, there are several reasons that golfers go to play golf in Scotland (as well as other parts of GB&I, Australia, New Zealand, Bandon, Pinehurst #2, etc etc) and one of these reasons is fast firm playing conditions some 90-95% of the time. I cannot imagine traveling to Scotland to play any course on regular basis (even the most spectacular) that is soft and wet 60-70% of the time. That is NOT what most want to play on in Scotland.
My second major issue relates to forced carries. As I recall, there are 2-3 holes with long forced carries over wetlands in front of the green (I think #11 is a prime example and the carry is about 150 yards). In these windy conditions, probably 50-70% of golfers could never finish the hole...and I would never call that type of shot/golf "fun". Yes it might work in match play...except if neither competitor can make the carry!!
Some others on this thread have talked about how the pricing at Ardfin is high but worth it. That is a judgement call. But having heard from at least one highly trusted source who experienced having their confirmed trip cancelled because of Coffin's whims and schedule would not seem to be consistent with any sort of reasonable price/reward trade off., even in today's "cancel culture".
Anyhow...one person's thoughts...
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I didn't hear the story about it being too windy to sandcap fairways, just that when they realised how much it would cost and how difficult it would be to bring in that much sand by barge to the tiny little pier at Craighouse, four miles away, and then truck it down the single track road to site, it was abandoned as being wholly impractical. They ended up scavenging for topsoil across the entire Ardfin estate.
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Perhaps it’s worth reminding ourselves and lurkers of Rans criteria ….
A course that provides engaging puzzles to solve beats one which does not.
A course where the ball is encouraged to run beats one where it is not.
A course where you can carry your bag at anytime beats one where you cannot.
A course where you can play quickly while walking, beats one where you cannot.
A course that you can enjoy at all ages beats one where you cannot.
A course with understated maintenance practices beats one with conspicuous green keeping.
A club that emphasizes the simple game of golf beats one which pursues the trappings of status.
A course you want to play again and again beats one you only wish to play annually.
The preamble to his 147 listing is of course well worth a re-read - https://golfclubatlas.com/147-custodians-of-the-game/ (https://golfclubatlas.com/147-custodians-of-the-game/)
Atb
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Does anybody know which courses were axed and added for the 150 edition?
Ciao
Roaring Gap
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Does anybody know which courses were axed and added for the 150 edition?
Ciao
Roaring Gap
Thats a shame, but I expect a compete 147 could easily run to 1000 courses.
Ciao
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I doubt we will get it, but I'd like to know why Ran removed some of the courses.
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Since several have asked...the following 14 are new to #150:
Kawana -Fuji # 10 Japan
Cap Rock #28 NE
Prairie Dunes #42 KS
Toronto #50 Canada
Pikewood Natl #58 WV
Tokyo GC #65 Japan
Yokohama-W #90 Japan
Erin Hills #99 WI
Colorado GC #128 CO
Blue Mound #135 WI
Camden CC #140 SC
Pine Hills #143 WI
Sunningdale CC #144 NY
Rockaway Hunting #150 NY
and the following 13
were dropped from the 149 list:
Dismal River-Red #92 NE
Royal Melb-East #114 Australia
Highland Links #124 Canada
Prouts Neck #127 ME
Cedar Rapids #130 IA
National-Moonah #131 Australia
Roy Ashdown Forest #132 England
Lost Farm #139 Australia
Liphook #145 England
St Emillion #146 France
Rustic Canyon #147 CA
Fano #148 Denmark
Rhode island CC #149 RI
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Since several have asked...the following 14 are new to #150:
Kawana -Fuji # 10 Japan
Cap Rock #28 NE
Prairie Dunes #42 KS
Toronto #50 Canada
Pikewood Natl #58 WV
Tokyo GC #65 Japan
Yokohama-W #90 Japan
Erin Hills #99 WI
Colorado GC #128 CO
Blue Mound #135 WI
Camden CC #140 SC
Pine Hills #143 WI
Sunningdale CC #144 NY
Rockaway Hunting #150 NY
and the following 13
were dropped from the 149 list:
Dismal River-Red #92 NE
Royal Melb-East #114 Australia
Highland Links #124 Canada
Prouts Neck #127 ME
Cedar Rapids #130 IA
National-Moonah #131 Australia
Roy Ashdown Forest #132 England
Lost Farm #139 Australia
Liphook #145 England
St Emillion #146 France
Rustic Canyon #147 CA
Fano #148 Denmark
Rhode island CC #149 RI
The pointlessness of trying to rank 150 courses in exact order is emphasized by the yearly changes. Besides the last five courses dropping off, there are several edits much higher up, and I am pretty sure Ran did not visit Highlands Links or Royal Melbourne East this past year. If the order was correct last year that wouldn’t happen.
The truth is there is no such thing as a correct order, but when you look behind the curtain you start to see soft quotas in play. A new course in Nebraska or Canada is added, and just by coincidence, another drops off from the same places.
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I’d prefer to see an alphabetical order or even reverse alphabetical while having the same number as there have been Opens still seems a valid approach.
Not picking on any particular clubs or courses but regarding some dropping off and others being added, well, firstly it’s Rans list not ours and secondly, the ethos of clubs and courses changes and if a certain club or courses ethos for some reason no longer coincides with Rans criteria then fair play if it falls off. Similarly if a club or course changes its ethos reverting to be in line with Rans criteria then adding it seems valid.
We must also remember the words of the prelude to Rans listing.
Atb
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Since several have asked...the following 14 are new to #150:
Kawana -Fuji # 10 Japan
Cap Rock #28 NE
Prairie Dunes #42 KS
Toronto #50 Canada
Pikewood Natl #58 WV
Tokyo GC #65 Japan
Yokohama-W #90 Japan
Erin Hills #99 WI
Colorado GC #128 CO
Blue Mound #135 WI
Camden CC #140 SC
Pine Hills #143 WI
Sunningdale CC #144 NY
Rockaway Hunting #150 NY
and the following 13
were dropped from the 149 list:
Dismal River-Red #92 NE
Royal Melb-East #114 Australia
Highland Links #124 Canada
Prouts Neck #127 ME
Cedar Rapids #130 IA
National-Moonah #131 Australia
Roy Ashdown Forest #132 England
Lost Farm #139 Australia
Liphook #145 England
St Emillion #146 France
Rustic Canyon #147 CA
Fano #148 Denmark
Rhode island CC #149 RI
Cheers Paul.
Ciao