Golf Club Atlas

GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture Discussion Group => Topic started by: PCCraig on June 12, 2018, 10:59:48 AM

Title: Hairy Fairway Berms
Post by: PCCraig on June 12, 2018, 10:59:48 AM: Last week I made it out to the extremely enjoyable Country Club of Charleston, a 1925 Seth Raynor design. Charleston is filled with a number of extraordinary features...the live oak used in place of the St. Andrews Hotel on the Road hole :o and the unbelievable Lion's Mouth green being two of my favorite.

However, one feature that I love is the fescue berm that runs across the par-5 15th hole. The berm runs directly across the fairway 130-yards out from the green and is only open enough at the middle for a player to walk through. The amazing thing is how it plays with your mind on your second shot, despite it's somewhat small stature. I hit it in a fairway bunker off the tee and I was sweating hitting a 7-iron solid enough to carry the feature. Even for the player going for the green in two, the feature creates a semi-blind shot that can unnerve a better player.

Here is a picture of the feature from Ran's profile:
(http://golfclubatlas.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/03/ccc15.jpg)

Are there other examples of this feature elsewhere? Is this something Raynor used anywhere else? Is this the perfect example of a strategic feature that should be used on more golf courses?
Title: Re: Hairy Fairway Berms
Post by: BHoover on June 12, 2018, 11:09:41 AM: Springfield CC in Ohio has a similar feature, albeit closer to the green, on the par-5 5th hole. It was always one of my favorite features on the course.
Title: Re: Hairy Fairway Berms
Post by: Kalen Braley on June 12, 2018, 11:17:46 AM: Excellent post Craig,

I would love to see more features like this on courses and strategically placed like this one appears to be. Its kind of like having the occasional tree smack dab in the middle of the fairway, its great in small doses.
Title: Re: Hairy Fairway Berms
Post by: Doug Lindahl on June 12, 2018, 11:18:48 AM: Schenley Park GC in Pittsburgh has similar features on 7, 11, 12 and twice on 18.
Title: Re: Hairy Fairway Berms
Post by: Kyle Harris on June 12, 2018, 11:20:53 AM: A bit more grand in scale but the woefully under-photographed second shot on Tobacco Road's opener has a similar looking feature.

Would the correct term be a "cop?"
Title: Re: Hairy Fairway Berms
Post by: Jon Wiggett on June 12, 2018, 02:50:07 PM: I can think of several courses in the UK with such features. Often they are old stone walls that have been covered. This works well as long as the growth is sparse.
Title: Re: Hairy Fairway Berms
Post by: Thomas Dai on June 12, 2018, 03:19:35 PM: As Jon says, there are many such in the U.K. Either old stone walls or sometimes hedges often with a ditch on one or both sides.

An aspect I’ve noticed from reviewing old photos etc of the MacKenzie holes on the course I play most often are the numerous such features, now less obvious than would once have been the case (having been ‘grubbed-out’ or semi-filled-in over time) that MacKenzie seemed to build bunkers in the face of.

Was this something he was inclined to do elsewhere?

Atb
Title: Re: Hairy Fairway Berms
Post by: Tal Oz on June 12, 2018, 03:24:01 PM: The 4th hole at Rustic Canyon does this perfectly. It's always fun guessing where exactly the pin is for the day because of a big mound in the middle of the green. Without the berm the anticipation of seeing exactly how close your shot was is lost.
Title: Re: Hairy Fairway Berms
Post by: Rick Lane on June 12, 2018, 03:29:42 PM: Makes you wonder if Raynor built that from the ground up, or if it is actually an old stone wall that he just earthed over. Maybe the club would know?
Title: Re: Hairy Fairway Berms
Post by: Frank Giordano on June 12, 2018, 04:05:35 PM: Looks like a variation of the "principal's nose," one of which Raynor made at the Old White at the Greenbrier.
Title: Re: Hairy Fairway Berms
Post by: James Reader on June 12, 2018, 05:08:17 PM: I’ve seen an old photo of Huddersfield GC with what look like steeplechase fences across the fairways. I know there are several UK courses with old stone walls or hedges cutting directly across the line of play, but I can’t remember seeing or hearing of anything quite like that before. It definitely appeared that they had been constructed specifically as an artificial hazard to be carried, rather than being existing fences that were worked into the design.
Does anyone know whether this was common on the earliest inland courses (I can’t imagine they were ever used on the original links)? If so, when did people decide it was a silly idea?! Or are there still some places out there with something similar?
Title: Re: Hairy Fairway Berms
Post by: Peter Flory on June 12, 2018, 07:48:45 PM: I love it.

I really enjoy the look of the early, early golf courses that had very obvious mounding and berms to conquer. I feel like there is a potential niche for an architect willing to borrower from even further back than the minimalist movement. Maybe not as geometric as below, but mounds seem underused these days and do make an interesting challenge- Lawsonia being a great example.

(http://www.lostcentury.com/wp-content/uploads/1894-golf-course-Shinnecock-zigzag-bunker-Harpers-Weekly1.jpg)
Title: Re: Hairy Fairway Berms
Post by: SL_Solow on June 12, 2018, 10:37:58 PM: Return of the cop? Really? The reaction to features like that led to the Golden Age.
Title: Re: Hairy Fairway Berms
Post by: Keith Phillips on June 13, 2018, 07:13:35 AM: Wentworth's East course has a similar feature on a par 3 on the front nine. A berm/hedge row that extends for 100+ yards on a diagonal across the fairway ending parallel to the right side of the green.
Title: Re: Hairy Fairway Berms
Post by: Sean_A on June 13, 2018, 08:41:29 AM: I say berms now, berms tomorrow and berms forever.

Ciao
Title: Re: Hairy Fairway Berms
Post by: Rob Rigg on June 13, 2018, 08:49:07 PM: Quote from: Sean_A on June 13, 2018, 08:41:29 AM
I say berms now, berms tomorrow and berms forever.

Ciao
Agreed. Great thread, berms are awesome, and I even like the mini berms that Kidd employed at Bandon and elsewhere (mostly early days). Berms provide wonderful food for thought and they are so darn cute and cuddly.
Title: Re: Hairy Fairway Berms
Post by: Mike Nuzzo on June 13, 2018, 09:58:44 PM: We almost made a cool & long three shot hole with this as the pinch point for the ideal second landing area.
(http://www.mnuzzo.com/GCA/IMG_4656.jpg)
Title: Re: Hairy Fairway Berms
Post by: Ally Mcintosh on June 14, 2018, 01:52:53 AM: Quote from: SL_Solow on June 12, 2018, 10:37:58 PM
Return of the cop? Really? The reaction to features like that led to the Golden Age.

It’s interesting - sometimes I think this group have so exhausted extolling the merits of the Golden Age that they look for anything else to champion just as a change / break.

Rudimentary mounding, hairy berms, penal cross bunkers are all things that the strategists shouted down.

Which - incidentally - does not make them right (the strategists).

I actually think it shows that we spend far too much time admiring one school of thought - as the Victorian Age showed loads of fun design that was thrown out with the Golden Age. They called the GA “modern” golf design at the time and in a way, it was the first of many steps towards homogenisation. Though primarily positive, inventive and pioneering, we shouldn’t forget that it also had “rules” and it’s much better when there are none.
Title: Re: Hairy Fairway Berms
Post by: Sean_A on June 14, 2018, 05:25:42 AM: Quote from: Ally Mcintosh on June 14, 2018, 01:52:53 AM
Quote from: SL_Solow on June 12, 2018, 10:37:58 PM
Return of the cop? Really? The reaction to features like that led to the Golden Age.

Rudimentary mounding, hairy berms, penal cross bunkers are all things that the strategists shouted down.

Which - incidentally - does not make them right (the strategists).

I actually think it shows that we spend far too much time admiring one school of thought - as the Victorian Age showed loads of fun design that was thrown out with the Golden Age. They called the GA “modern” golf design at the time and in a way, it was the first of many steps towards homogenisation. Though primarily positive, inventive and pioneering, we shouldn’t forget that it also had “rules” and it’s much better when there are none.

+1

Ciao