Also, just like course rankings, slope ratings are anchored by the numbers already assigned to the best courses in the area ... if a new course gets scored higher than Merion, the rating team goes back and starts fudging the numbers a little to produce the desired result.
Also, just like course rankings, slope ratings are anchored by the numbers already assigned to the best courses in the area ... if a new course gets scored higher than Merion, the rating team goes back and starts fudging the numbers a little to produce the desired result.
Who knew?!
True, Eddie B? Or is this more fake news?
my experience suggests that not all 121s are created equal. The math/science/system is beyond me, but I've had some fun over the years trying to figure out why & how *this* 121 (or 130 etc) is so much harder than *that* one.Peter, slope does not measure difficulty. It's supposed to show how hard courses are for bogey golfers compared to scratch. It tells you nothing about their actual scores. Only the difference between them (multiplied by 5.381 to make things even more unclear). The higher the slope, the harder the course is for bogey next to scratch.
In theory, I think that a low-slope course is ideal for most situations ... but I also think the rating formula is flawed and doesn't account properly for strategic elements (when you're in the fairway, but at an angle where there is no way to get close). So i don't waste time worrying about what the slope rating will be.Doing that would be nearly impossible. I think the two-number system works surprisingly well to account for the near infinite variety of golfers, golf courses, and golf shots that can be played, to produce a pretty meaningful result (a player's handicap index). This is even more incredible considering that something like 90% of a course's rating and slope are simply due to length.
Also, just like course rankings, slope ratings are anchored by the numbers already assigned to the best courses in the area ... if a new course gets scored higher than Merion, the rating team goes back and starts fudging the numbers a little to produce the desired result.Though that may happen occasionally, to imply that it's how things work is bull. I've been a course rater for 13 years and captain going on four - our rating of Kahkwa was questioned (not because of how it compared to other courses, but because of how members thought it should rate), so my golf association rated the course, then the USGA rated the course. They got the same numbers we did. My association handles some pretty big name Pittsburgh area clubs, and they've not done anything like this in the 13 years I've been rating courses.
I believe that Forrest Richardson 's course just outside the Albuquerque airport is rated 109 or 110. I don't consider it a dog track.
Now the course rated 109 or 110 where Kalen broke 80 surely is a dog track. ;D
Also, just like course rankings, slope ratings are anchored by the numbers already assigned to the best courses in the area ... if a new course gets scored higher than Merion, the rating team goes back and starts fudging the numbers a little to produce the desired result.Though that may happen occasionally, to imply that it's how things work is bull. I've been a course rater for 13 years and captain going on four - our rating of Kahkwa was questioned (not because of how it compared to other courses, but because of how members thought it should rate), so my golf association rated the course, then the USGA rated the course. They got the same numbers we did. My association handles some pretty big name Pittsburgh area clubs, and they've not done anything like this in the 13 years I've been rating courses.
Also, just like course rankings, slope ratings are anchored by the numbers already assigned to the best courses in the area ... if a new course gets scored higher than Merion, the rating team goes back and starts fudging the numbers a little to produce the desired result.Though that may happen occasionally, to imply that it's how things work is bull. I've been a course rater for 13 years and captain going on four - our rating of Kahkwa was questioned (not because of how it compared to other courses, but because of how members thought it should rate), so my golf association rated the course, then the USGA rated the course. They got the same numbers we did. My association handles some pretty big name Pittsburgh area clubs, and they've not done anything like this in the 13 years I've been rating courses.
I think golf courses used to care a lot more about their rating and slope, but I have never heard of this type of manipulation being done in my 13 years. Not to say it doesn't occasionally happen, but I think those times are rare.
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I been a rater for 20 years and on my Association’s Rating Committee for the last 10. I have never seen a CR/Slope manipulated to keep it below that of another local club.
FYI, there are 12 member clubs in the Golf Assoc of Philadelphia that have a higher Course Rating/Slope than Merion including 1 public, 5 corporate owned and 6 member owned clubs.
Sorry for the old information. But point still holds. I find it odd the my course, Rolling Green, has substantially higher slopes at all comparable distances (5800 -69.7/129; 6300 - 72.3/134; 6700 - 73.7/140; 6900 - 74.7143). Doesn't make sense to me.I'm sure it would make sense if you looked at the way the data is calculated. Length is first, always, but after that you can get big swings based on the green target values (the value of which affects several other aspects of the scratch and bogey rating).
So how exact is this, when the numbers keep shifting like that? Sounds like the GAP agreed with Jim's take that Aronimink was tougher than they said, and adjusted the slope upwards.
I think scorecards should post bogey rating, course rating (what scratch is supposed to shoot) and delete slope altogether.
But a high slope rating just shows in some ways the relative unfairness of the course to less good players--not fine. Agree?I totally agree.
But a high slope rating just shows in some ways the relative unfairness of the course to less good players--not fine. Agree?I totally agree.
But I don't understand what Jake is saying about the 113 slope not actually being an average.
The guy who pretty much invented the concept says this on his website:
" The slope of the scores line of an average course has been observed to be 1.13 and USGA Slope Rating is referenced as 113 to deal in whole numbers."
"A Slope Rating of 113 also is the empirically derived average value on standard American golf courses."
"Slope Ratings range from 55 to 155, with the average being 113."
" The only time a golfer plays to his Index is at a course of average difficulty (Slope Rating 113)."
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I wonder if that 120 average is for all tees combined and not only back tees?
Slope of 113 means bogey golfers should average 21 strokes more than scratch. The formula is...
If an architect designs a golf course that is exactly as difficult for a bogey golfer as it is for the scratch golfer, as measured by course-raters, would it have a slope of 113?.
Slope of 113 means bogey golfers should average 21 strokes more than scratch. The formula is...
If an architect designs a golf course that is exactly as difficult for a bogey golfer as it is for the scratch golfer, as measured by course-raters, would it have a slope of 113?.
S = (B - C) x 5.381, where S is slope, B is bogey rating, and C is course rating.
In general, the more par 3s a course has compared to par 5s, the lower the slope goes. Par 3s are the great equalizers: even pro's barely/rarely average below 3 on them, while bogey golfers have their best chance at making par or even birdie there.
Slope rating isn’t really well known on the western side of the Atlantic.Some years ago Dean Knuth rated a number of Scottish courses. Both Crail Balcomie and Elie have slopes of 113. I'd happily play the vast majority of my golf on either.
Could someone with experience of playing in for example GB&I please indicate some courses over here that might fall below an imaginary 113 slope? This might help some of us over here get a general understanding of the level of courses under consideration. Thanks in advance.
Atb
Also, just like course rankings, slope ratings are anchored by the numbers already assigned to the best courses in the area ... if a new course gets scored higher than Merion, the rating team goes back and starts fudging the numbers a little to produce the desired result.
Who knew?!
True, Eddie B? Or is this more fake news?
Aronomink is the course around here that surprises many people. At 6100 yards, it slopes at 123; at 6500 yards - 126; and at 7100 yards - 130. Yet all three lengths have course ratings over par. I guess the raters thinks it's difficult for everybody, but not that much more difficult for higher handicappers.
Jim I was on the team that just did the rating. It is hard for everyone, playing it in two weeks and looking for the round there to bump up my cap. However I think the numbers you used above might be incorrect.
Thanks, Bob....
Mike,
Don't know what Knuth was referring to but the average slope for GAP member clubs from tees identified as Member, Middle or White is 127.
Bob
Most fun course I have played with the 113 slope rating....Pacific Grove Golf Links. It is 113 from the tips.
That's according to the scorecard I found online. The old card I have on my desk from 3 years ago says 118. So who knows what is actually correct.
Slope rating isn’t really well known on the western side of the Atlantic.
Could someone with experience of playing in for example GB&I please indicate some courses over here that might fall below an imaginary 113 slope? This might help some of us over here get a general understanding of the level of courses under consideration. Thanks in advance.
Atb
At a USGA rating calibration about 15 years ago, I suggested that that in addition to the course rating and slope, they include the Bogey Course rating to their database. They thought it was a great idea. :)
In regard to the 113 being the average slope, Dean Knuth’s response:
Handicaps - Your Questions AnsweredAverage Slope Rating
I read that the average course Slope Rating is 113. I've never seen a Slope lower than 120. What gives?
A: A When I introduced the system in 1982, the theoretical average Slope Rating was 113 because USGA data showed that scores go up on average 1.13 strokes per handicap stroke. The actual average Slope Rating is 120. The majority of courses in coastal states have Slopes of 121 and higher. Many Slopes lower than 118 are mid-American public courses. The lowest is 55 (short par-3 course), and the highest is 155.
By Dean Knuth, Golf Digest Professional Advisor. Former senior director of the USGA handicap department, Knuth invented today's USGA Course Rating and Slope system.
Slope rating isn’t really well known on the western side of the Atlantic.With the World Handicap system coming, you'll be familiar with it pretty soon.
Could someone with experience of playing in for example GB&I please indicate some courses over here that might fall below an imaginary 113 slope? This might help some of us over here get a general understanding of the level of courses under consideration. Thanks in advance.
"They" might have liked it that idea, but until the slope number is gone, golfers are going to think higher means better.Slope isn't going anywhere. It's just a number - it's not the fault of the USGA, etc. if people don't understand what the number actually means.
Slope rating isn’t really well known on the western side of the Atlantic.As alluded to Dean Knuth rated a number of courses in Scottland. Here are the results:
Could someone with experience of playing in for example GB&I please indicate some courses over here that might fall below an imaginary 113 slope? This might help some of us over here get a general understanding of the level of courses under consideration. Thanks in advance.
Atb
http://popeofslope.com/scotland/courseratings.html (http://popeofslope.com/scotland/courseratings.html)
I heard that Lincoln used to give Tom Watson fits when he went to Stanford.
Every year, the young guns (and seasoned veterans) who play in the Championship Flight of the San Francisco City will again prove that rarely will anyone shoot their handicap at Lincoln (a golfer with an index of 0.0 would need to score a 66 to shoot their handicap).
Thanks Joe. Appears there’s some rather nice golf even under slope 113.
Atb
My local club. 1st hole picture attached. 113 from the tips, but you can't play from there unless in a competition. If you can break 80 from the daily tees you can play.
https://www.visitscotland.com/info/see-do/aberdour-golf-course-p261161
Rich