Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture Discussion Group => Topic started by: Jim Nugent on April 09, 2018, 09:43:25 AM
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Two things (for pro tournament golf only): 1) Ban all yardage guides, notes and maps of any kind; 2) No caddies.
The first means players won't know exact distances. They won't know if the putt they face breaks 1 foot or 1.5 feet. They'll have to use their judgment more. Besides raising scores a bit, this turns them less into automatons.
The second means they don't have a guiding hand during tournaments, that gives them counsel and helps keep them on an even keel. They're on their own. They can either carry (which would spell the end of the age of monster bags) or pull a trolley. This will also add more an element of endurance to tournament golf.
Chances of these getting implemented are somewhere between slim and zero, but I bet they would make courses more competitive, without having to alter or butcher them in any way.
Edited for formatting.
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Have them putt on the greens most of us mere mortals play on; slower and somewhat inconsistent in speed and have the sand in the green-side bunkers vary in consistency.....
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I agree that those maps of the contours of the greens should be banned. Not quite sure I agree with taking away caddies. The caddie player relationship is an important part of the game.
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Cut the number of players who get their card and full playing privileges from 125 to 50. Then issue them all uniforms, equipment and balls so the endorsement money dries up. Have them wear masks like mexican wrestlers so we can't see their faces. In other words, make them drive from tournament to tournament and sleep in their cars. Win or go hungry…That's the ticket.
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I agree that those maps of the contours of the greens should be banned. Not quite sure I agree with taking away caddies. The caddie player relationship is an important part of the game.
I could be wrong, but isn't this a relatively recent phenomenon? I think it's only been in the last 30 or so years that guys have had full-time caddies who carry their bag every week and are part of the decision making process, etc. I know ANGC only allowed players to bring in their own caddies (as opposed to using the ones on ANGC staff) sometime in the 1980s.
Regardless, I don't like seeing professional players do whatever their caddie tells them to do in tournaments. Spieth seems to rely heavily on his caddie, for one. I think that takes away part of the game.
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Eliminate Drivers and Tees.
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The caddie thing is a little funny when you really think about it. These are grown men and professional athletes out there. But they can't even carry their own tools of the trade or make up their own mind about which club to hit? Then consider that these guys are making peanut butter and jelly sandwiches for their players.
What do you think would be the indifference point with strokes for a player to go without a caddie in a tour event? e.g. would Jordan Spieth elect to carry his own bag if he were given a 1 stroke per round credit?
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The caddie player relationship is an important part of the [/font]game.
No it's not. It detracts from the game. The decision process and working things out for yourself are important parts of the game. Someone telling you what to do isn't.
Niall
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I was struck by Reed and his caddie doing separate match calculations and then comparing notes. While I couldn't tell, I imagined it was 146 yards, 24 yards uphill, 12 MPH wind, downhill lie, whatever, etc., so add X to effective yardage. Figure in front hazard, back kick plate, where to miss, etc. (using 18 as example)
Many hate that here, but that is what it has come to, every generation adding tech to the old Jack Nicklaus yardage book.
In reality, Kalen could be right. Limit and redesign drivers as 3 Woods to effectively negate length. Would be a lot easier than regulating golf balls. That said, the winning score this year is in line with Hogan in 1953, Nicklaus, Woods, Speith. Would be even easier just to put big wind machines all over the place, as well as a dome to make sure rains didn't get the greens softer.
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Jeff,
Part of Reeds caddie situation is also that he hired his wifes brother with zero caddie experience...
Given he seems to piss off so many people, maybe he couldn't find a real caddie to work with him! ;D
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You are required to take a caddy on the PGA Tour. If it were not a requirement I think you'd see at least a few younger guys carrying their own to save some money. You'd certainly see it on the Web.
Without length or equipment changes, aren't we back to slope and firmness as the best defenses? Psychologically, pushing greens and landing areas tighter up against OB has a big effect. S&D is a killer they avoid at all costs.
And for the life of me I don't know why bunkers are raked. It seems like such an easy, zero cost, immediate way to better test skill and at same time return game to it's roots.
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I think Speith is a fine player but I'm not sure he can tie his shoes without consulting with his caddie.
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Maybe instead of limiting length/distance we should encourage it.
Bone dry and tightly mowed fairways, with no rough -- just 'one cut' all the way to the trees. Let them bomb away off the tee, and let the ball roll a long way on landing -- so that slightly too much of a draw or too much of a fade, and/or the wrong shot-shape for the fairway contour, will have the shot rolling away from the preferred approach angle and sometimes into big trouble.
The best/most confident drivers will still have an advantage; the
shorter hitters will be able to keep up better than ever (like Tom Watson did at 59 at The Open); and the wayward drivers and/or those choking coming down the stretch will have a real choice to make re dialling back off the tee.
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“Without lengthening or altering”, so no changes to courses or the the ball. Um....how about -
A much lower limit on the number of clubs that can be carried - Alister MacKenzie advocated only 6! - and you don’t need a caddy if you’ve only got a few clubs in a small bag
A limit on maximum clubhead loft - say 50*
Unraked bunkers
Time penalties for slow play
That’ll do for starters.
Atb
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How about just have a different card for the pros vs. members/locals where short par 5's are changed to par 4's. Augusta could be played as a par 68 or 69?
It would be the same as having a card for Ladies vs. a card for men where the par for Ladies is sometimes 73, 74, 75???
Is there real magic to having a certain number of par 5's? TOC has 3 par 3's and 2 par 5's. It's a par 72 that for the pros should be par 70. Or 69.
Why not?
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The new Women's Am at ANGC may offer some guidance on this subject.
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Have green contour books made anyone a better putter since introduced? If there's data proving otherwise I'd be happy to eat crow, but I just don't think they make much of a difference.
My thought is reduce the number of clubs to 9 or 10, and switch back to wooden woods, or at least 300CC drivers. Guys will have to choose to keep all their wedges or get rid of some irons and be in between clubs more often.
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Bill Coore answered a question similar to this on Andy Johnson's Fried Egg Podcast (Episode 60 I think. Possibly Episode 59. Both are highly recommended).
Bill thought that making holes shorter rather than longer for the pros was a key to making them more difficult. It's counterintuitive, but makes total sense when you think about it. Take away the pro's ability to hit a straight 300+ yard drive and you make it harder. It brings club selection and hitting to specific targets part of the equation.
The 3rd hole at Augusta is a nice example. At 350 yards, it's the shortest par 4 on the course by 100+ yards. Due to it's complexities, hitting driver is not the automatic choice. The average score this year was 3.93 per my quick calculation, and the historical average is 4.08 per The Masters app.
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The 3rd hole at Augusta is a nice example. At 350 yards, it's the shortest par 4 on the course by 100+ yards. Due to it's complexities, hitting driver is not the automatic choice. The average score this year was 3.93 per my quick calculation, and the historical average is 4.08 per The Masters app.
I'm guessing that makes it one of the easiest par 4s on the course, if not the easiest. Maybe the question is, would it be easier if it were longer? Pretty unusual if so.
Have green contour books made anyone a better putter since introduced? If there's data proving otherwise I'd be happy to eat crow, but I just don't think they make much of a difference.
I have no data. The players themselves think it makes a difference. Otherwise they wouldn't use it. Same with all the other aid(e)s they have at their disposal.
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Bill Coore answered a question similar to this on Andy Johnson's Fried Egg Podcast (Episode 60 I think. Possibly Episode 59. Both are highly recommended).
Bill thought that making holes shorter rather than longer for the pros was a key to making them more difficult. It's counterintuitive, but makes total sense when you think about it. Take away the pro's ability to hit a straight 300+ yard drive and you make it harder. It brings club selection and hitting to specific targets part of the equation.
The 3rd hole at Augusta is a nice example. At 350 yards, it's the shortest par 4 on the course by 100+ yards. Due to it's complexities, hitting driver is not the automatic choice. The average score this year was 3.93 per my quick calculation, and the historical average is 4.08 per The Masters app.
I'm looking forward to the Byron Nelson at Trinity Forest this year to see if Bill Coore's theory about making courses shorter proves correct. I agree that making courses shorter takes the long hitters advantage away vs the short hitters. I don't agree that it makes it more difficult.
The 3rd hole at Augusta is a fantastic hole and I think every course should have at least 1 or 2 short par 4s, but the game of golf is about variety. We can't have golf courses where the majority of par 4s are an iron off the tee and a wedge into the green. I don't think it would be fun to watch or play a course like that. The 3rd hole at Augusta is statistically and historically the easiest par 4 on the course.
We've watched how to make courses tougher besides lengthening at the US Open for the past 20 years.....narrow the fairways, grow the rough, and make the greens too fast for the slopes on them. All of these options make the game less fun and more unfair.
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I think Speith is a fine player but I'm not sure he can tie his shoes without consulting with his caddie.
Tie "their" shoes
ick-at least get the stupid mikes off them which normalize such slow play activity
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Tie "their" shoes
ick-at least get the stupid mikes off them which normalize such slow play activity
That's one of my favorite things about Rory. He has to be one of the fastest players out there.
I had a friend at the 2016 Masters when Rory and Spieth were paired together, and he said that by the back nine Rory would hit his shot (the few times he was playing first) and then immediately walk to the green, and was sometimes standing waiting near the green for a minute or two before time Spieth was even ready to play his shot.
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I think Speith is a fine player but I'm not sure he can tie his shoes without consulting with his caddie.
While I admit he is slow now with this caddie, he excelled as a amateur as well by either carrying his own bag or having family do it.
In 2009 and 2011, Spieth won the U.S. Junior Amateur and joined Tiger Woods as the tournament's only two-time winners.[9]
Before turning 18 in July 2011, he was No. 1 in the AJGA Golf Rankings, which promotes the best junior golfers in the world.[10]
He finished second in the 2008 and 2009 Junior PGA Championship.[11] The American Junior Golf Association named him the Rolex Junior Player of the Year in 2009.[12]
Spieth accepted an exemption to play in the PGA Tour's HP Byron Nelson Championship in 2010. It was the event's first amateur exemption since 1995.[13] The tournament's previous exemptions had included Trip Kuehne in 1995, Justin Leonard, and Woods in 1993.[13] He made the cut, becoming the sixth-youngest player to make the cut at a PGA Tour event.[14] Spieth was tied for seventh place after the third round, and finished the tournament in a tie for 16th place.[15] He was offered another exemption into the tournament in 2011, when he again made the cut and finished in a tie for 32nd.[16]
Spieth played college golf at the University of Texas.[17] Spieth was a member of the 2011 Walker Cup team and played in three of the four rounds; he halved his foursomes match and won both singles matches.[18]
In his freshman year at Texas, Spieth won three events and led the team in scoring average.[19] He helped his team win the NCAA championship, was named to the All-Big 12 Team, Big 12 Freshman of the Year and Player of the Year, and was a first-team All-American.[20][21]
In 2012, Spieth earned a spot as an alternate in the U.S. Open after Brandt Snedeker withdrew from the tournament;[20] he tied for 21st and was the low amateur.[22] He became the number one amateur in the World Amateur Golf Ranking after his performance in the U.S. Open and Patrick Cantlay's decision to turn professional.[23]
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I don't think it makes a course harder, in fact I think it makes a course easier, but perception is everything. Shorten yardage some and reduce par a load. If Augusta had only two par 5s, the winning score is -7. All the 5s are reachable in two for most. Shorten the yardage of a few and maybe call them all par 4s. Lets face it, its not as if Augusta explores the 100-125, 275-325 or 350-425 yardage ranges at all. Why not go a step further if folks are worried about "low" scores"?
Ciao
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And for the life of me I don't know why bunkers are raked. It seems like such an easy, zero cost, immediate way to better test skill and at same time return game to it's roots.
I bet the reason is randomness and howls of unfairness.
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Angles and firmness.
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The caddie player relationship is an important part of the game.
No it's not. It detracts from the game. The decision process and working things out for yourself are important parts of the game. Someone telling you what to do isn't.
Niall
Really... what rubbish!
If so, then the game (even the championship one) has forever been "detracted" because caddies were part of anything before courses had 18 friggin holes...before there was an Open championship. There is hardly a picture of a memorable original playing moment where caddies aren't in the frame... Caddies and their duties, the very nature of advice were codified and woven into the game long, long before you came along with your observations...I guess Ouimet and the encouragements of Eddie Lowry were a detracting thing... Arnold and Tip Anderson and all those sages who led the American wave was a "detraction"...Tom Watson was less than he was because Bruce Edwards gave him yardages and reminded him of various dangers on this side or that...the fun of Trevino and his long-time man Herman carried no interest...all the players who came from caddie ranks...were not meant for participation in golf's grand fabric... rubbish.
Historically, tell me when Jones, Sweetser, Travis, Hilton, Taylor, Braid, Old Tom, Young Tom, the Dunns, the Parks, Vardon, Ray, carried their own clubs and didn't have the technical assistance of a caddie...and all that comes with the person in that role, whether sage or novice, the club's caddie or their regular man...
Look elsewhere for your detraction(s).
cheers vk
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VK
It seems to me that you are confusing having a bag carrier with someone who tells you what to do.
Going with the early examples you give, Young Tom, Old Tom, Allan Robertson etc would have mostly carried their own clubs on a day to day basis. It would have only been for big matches and maybe even the Open that they had someone carry their clubs. They mostly managed themselves. Same with the other British guys you mention growing up. It would only be by the time they were champions they would have had someone carry their clubs and by then they would have no need of advice from the bag carrier.
For sure some of the early English writers at turn of the century wrote in (mock) awe of Scottish caddies but that was a bit of a cliché and self-deprecation as most were just kids, and even novice golfers weren't prone to taking advice from the juvenile bag carrier.
David Walsh wrote an interesting article in the Sunday Times about comments made by Nicklaus either at or ahead of this years Masters. The gist of the piece was Nicklaus saying that he couldn't understand why anyone would want to have their caddies tell them what to do or to have all the psychologists, experts and gurus advising them what to do either. As I think he put it, they don't hit the ball, the player does and one of the fun parts is working it all out for yourself. And that's from probably the best player ever, who won his last major in 1986(?).
I'd suggest that the vast majority of golfers in this country side with Nicklaus.
Niall
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“Without lengthening or altering”, so no changes to courses or the the ball. Um....how about -
A much lower limit on the number of clubs that can be carried - Alister MacKenzie advocated only 6! - and you don’t need a caddy if you’ve only got a few clubs in a small bag
A limit on maximum clubhead loft - say 50*
Unraked bunkers
Time penalties for slow play
That’ll do for starters.
Atb
Well played, Thomas. All the ideas are goo, and if you ban caddies (I'm strongly in favor of that) some of "more than flat" bellied players will have to carry pencil bags with room for 6-7 clubs, killing two birds with one stone!
Slainte
Rich
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Not to rain on the party...but with the recent branding initiative out of Ponte Vedra - #LiveUnderPar - do we think the 'pros' are leaning towards making the game harder?
Also...to what benefit would making the game harder for the pros deliver?
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Indeed, the tour measures driving distance on holes that maximize driving distance (as per 'these guys are good'); interesting to see how the average driving distance at Augusta was much less/shorter than the norm. Pete Dye's subtle genius lay in creating golf holes (like the 17th at Sawgrass) that, despite appearances, were not at all meant to challenge the best golfers in the world but instead to celebrate/brand them as such. Sunday pressure or not, a pitch shot is still just a pitch shot (except for the majority of average golfers who tremble at the sight of water, and so project that fear/test onto the pros). I have to admit, I'd prefer that my heroes were made of sterner stuff -- that they'd want genuine challenge (and thus true accomplishment) rather than ego-stroking puff pieces.
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VK
It seems to me that you are confusing having a bag carrier with someone who tells you what to do.
Going with the early examples you give, Young Tom, Old Tom, Allan Robertson etc would have mostly carried their own clubs on a day to day basis. It would have only been for big matches and maybe even the Open that they had someone carry their clubs. They mostly managed themselves. Same with the other British guys you mention growing up. It would only be by the time they were champions they would have had someone carry their clubs and by then they would have no need of advice from the bag carrier.
For sure some of the early English writers at turn of the century wrote in (mock) awe of Scottish caddies but that was a bit of a cliché and self-deprecation as most were just kids, and even novice golfers weren't prone to taking advice from the juvenile bag carrier.
David Walsh wrote an interesting article in the Sunday Times about comments made by Nicklaus either at or ahead of this years Masters. The gist of the piece was Nicklaus saying that he couldn't understand why anyone would want to have their caddies tell them what to do or to have all the psychologists, experts and gurus advising them what to do either. As I think he put it, they don't hit the ball, the player does and one of the fun parts is working it all out for yourself. And that's from probably the best player ever, who won his last major in 1986(?).
I'd suggest that the vast majority of golfers in this country side with Nicklaus.
Niall
Where's the provenance to back all these would haves and were(s) up?...nothing, just more suppositions upon suppositions framed to advance your displeasures... to wit, please offer one instance where Old Tom or anybody else of that historic mien carried their own clubs (which you also argue is not the point, so why did you bring it up - this was about advice, no?). Read Scotland's Gift, please... CBM gives a first hand account of golf in the 1870s...Read the "Old Apple Tree Gang"...the very first time Reid whacked the ball around a three hole pasture in America, he details who was caddying for whom.
While its a quaint delusion to think that many or even most caddies at the turn of the century were young Eddie Lowrys, they were not... Read Carry Your Bag, Sir by David Stirk...read St . Andrews - the First 600 years. Read the voluminous humorous pieces about wretched caddies (by comparison) to see how valuable a sage one is and has always been... Read, study, then read some more...maybe consider...THEN comment.
You invoke one Nicklaus interview of recent vintage...why not look at his remarks about his first experiences in Britain; or why he kept Big Angelo as his regular caddie in the meat of his 70s playing career? But in short I say, Carl Jackson & Ben Crenshaw...guess that was a detracting thing too?
If there is any agreement with your position, it owes to the hard fact that the overwhelming majority of golf is played without one and as such are a costly exotica and not always satisfying aspect of a round... but poll the people whose scores, whose performance, whose livelihood matters to the result and you will get an opposite number.
I have caddied nearly 3000 rounds in my life for all manner of golf big and small, but I have used a caddie for my own game less than 25 times. I don't need nor particularly desire to have a caddie to beat/enjoy (?) my regular partners or have a distant round...but if I'm playing in a competition or visiting a fine course I want to enjoy my one time there, you can bet your balls I'll slip the caddiemaster extra to give me a good one.
It's quite your privilege to hold that you don't think caddies ought to be advising or navigating the players ... it is a misbegotten and desultory thing to cite that which you clearly haven't examined or can back up with any fact or preponderance of fact to advance that position.
cheers vk
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Also...to what benefit would making the game harder for the pros deliver?
Old great courses wouldn't have to butcher themselves, just so they can host pro events. Scores would run higher, without making the courses longer, or tighter, or blanketing them with 6" rough.
That's my theory, anyway.
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I may be on my own here, but I don't think the caddy helps these guys measurably when they're playing well...which is, after all, the guys we worry about shooting 59 on our baby, isn't it?
If you gave Patrick Reed a sunday bag with the same clubs he has today and a basic yardage book, he'd come to your home course and break the course record in a walk...
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I may be on my own here, but I don't think the caddy helps these guys measurably when they're playing well...which is, after all, the guys we worry about shooting 59 on our baby, isn't it?
If you gave Patrick Reed a sunday bag with the same clubs he has today and a basic yardage book, he'd come to your home course and break the course record in a walk...
Agree that par is about 65,or lower, for any PGAT pro on most courses, but I'm not sure your first paragraph is as true as it was even 10 years ago. I think the caddie/player relationship has become almost a partnership--especially for the younger guys. Maybe it's a manifestation of the millennial culture but I think most of them "need" somebody with them--in various capacities (shrink, friend, who knows what else?). There don't seem to be a lot of show up/keep up/shut up caddies working for the under-30 age group.
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That's a fair point...but isn't it really just Jordan?
Ricky and Justin, not so much...Reed, some, but more for confirmation...Dustin, haha.
My theory is that there's so much information available they think they need to consume as much as possible...without actually benefiting from most of it.
Either way, do you think any of the caddies save their player a full stroke per round on average?
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Rake the bunkers on Thursday morning, after that the only person that can rake a bunker is a player.
Ban use of stimp meter from two weeks prior to tournament start thru tournament.
Eliminate leaderboards, spectators can use phones for that info.
Increase setback of TIOs by an additional 5-10 yards.
Yardage book okay, green books not okay.
Mow fairways only from green end of fairway towards the tee in landing area.
The movement to tour caddies sped up when the tour increased the number of card from 50/60 to 100+. I joined the caddy pool for the Portland Open in the early 60s and they would assign about 50 bags for the week, more on the LPGA tour..
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That's a fair point...but isn't it really just Jordan?
Ricky and Justin, not so much...Reed, some, but more for confirmation...Dustin, haha.
My theory is that there's so much information available they think they need to consume as much as possible...without actually benefiting from most of it.
Either way, do you think any of the caddies save their player a full stroke per round on average?
You know as well as I that if a player thinks something is helpful, it is helpful. How do you quantify how helpful?
And I absolutely agree on the information consumption part.
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Does anyone know why there is a rule that a tour player use a caddie? If a caddie gets injured and the player can't find a replacement immediately, what happens?
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If there is in fact that rule, it would be for appearance only.
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Its very simple really.
1.Shorten the ball for the pros by 15%
2. Raise the height of cut on both the fairways and greens significantly to slow them down.
3. Increase the amount of contouring especially on the greens.
Professional golf tournaments (especially the PGA Tour) are a series of flat lie tee shots followed by flat lie fairway shots to flat putt hole position. YAWN FESTIVAL = BORING