Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture Discussion Group => Topic started by: Brandon Urban on March 06, 2018, 11:27:24 AM
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Midland Hills (St Paul, MN) Superintendent, Mike Manthey, tweeted out this morning that he had made an incredible find above a false ceiling in his office. Jim Urbina is already scheduled to put together a master plan for the club and I can only imagine how much better this will make it.
Midland is a fun golf course now. I can't wait to see it in all its glory.
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4754/40655516181_3014ddca76.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/24WA9xx)Midland Tweet (https://flic.kr/p/24WA9xx) by burban965 (https://www.flickr.com/photos/28956368@N08/), on Flickr
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4790/39760300385_88c61c6301_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/23ztW5r)Midland Map (https://flic.kr/p/23ztW5r) by burban965 (https://www.flickr.com/photos/28956368@N08/), on Flickr
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4665/39946030754_8ede3d6206_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/23RTRfb)Midland Map 2 (https://flic.kr/p/23RTRfb) by burban965 (https://www.flickr.com/photos/28956368@N08/), on Flickr
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This is a REALLY cool story! Thanks for sharing as who would have thought. Probably up there since the last remodel of the office in the 80 or 70's with a drop ceiling and someone put it up there and forgot.
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Very cool. Excited to see what Jim and Mike do at Midland Hills. (The first thing they should do is campaign to go back to the original name/logo and call it The University Club)
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Couldn’t resist looking up Crane & Ordway.
Cool history:
http://saintpaulhistorical.com/items/show/217 (http://saintpaulhistorical.com/items/show/217)
Cheers,
F.
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This is such a great find! I can hardly believe it!
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How cool is THAT?!
Thanks for sharing..
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Excellent, Brandon! Midland Hills in my top ten of the "golf courses I have played and been blown away with without much support from other GCA.com afficionados". Hope to play there again this year.
Rich
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As a member of the club in question (and the green committee thereof), I could hardly be more excited than I am about what is to come.
So many mysteries solved, in a flash!
Just one, for now: The original 17 (current 2), which we have been calling a Road hole, was clearly not a Road hole at all!
Of course, many mysteries remain — to be solved by Mr. Urbina. Can’t wait!
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This whole thing is awesome.
Congratulations to the club and all involved! :)
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As a member of the club in question (and the green committee thereof), I could hardly be more excited than I am about what is to come.
So many mysteries solved, in a flash!
Just one, for now: The original 17 (current 2), which we have been calling a Road hole, was clearly not a Road hole at all!
Of course, many mysteries remain — to be solved by Mr. Urbina. Can’t wait!
Weren't the holes named? Or was there a lot of missing information?
This is really great for you guys.
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In a false ceiling! A few years ago the manager at a bar I sometimes frequent called my attention to a basketball program from the early 1950s that a man had found in his randomly collected memorabilia. The manager thought I might find it interesting as the tournament was held at the predecessor of the consolidated high school I attended and at the gym. One of our counties better players had been a sophomore at the time. Once I finished going through the team pictures, etc. I turned it over and there on the back cover was the tournament draw filled out in my father's handwriting. I immediately purchased it and took it home to dad who recognized it and said he had been the official scorekeeper for the tournament.
So curious what survives and what is lost.
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Awesome find.
Noticed right off the bat that the Biarritz hole (top middle of the plan) has a green section clearly delineated from the run up area, which appears to be how the hole is maintained today.
Coincidentally, it looks like today's 17th was meant to be the Road Hole.
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As a member of the club in question (and the green committee thereof), I could hardly be more excited than I am about what is to come.
So many mysteries solved, in a flash!
Just one, for now: The original 17 (current 2), which we have been calling a Road hole, was clearly not a Road hole at all!
Of course, many mysteries remain — to be solved by Mr. Urbina. Can’t wait!
Weren't the holes named? Or was there a lot of missing information?
This is really great for you guys.
No hole names on this blueprint.
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Awesome find.
Noticed right off the bat that the Biarritz hole (top middle of the plan) has a green section clearly delineated from the run up area, which appears to be how the hole is maintained today.
Coincidentally, it looks like today's 17th was meant to be the Road Hole.
Yes, that is how our Biarritz is,
And no, I don’t see a Road in current 17. On the original drawing, that is 15, and there is no Road bunker.
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Couldn’t resist looking up Crane & Ordway.
Cool history:
http://saintpaulhistorical.com/items/show/217 (http://saintpaulhistorical.com/items/show/217)
Cheers,
F.
Their building, just west of the St. Paul Saints’ new home, CHS Field, is into a new chapter: [size=78%]https://www.aeonmn.org/properties/crane-ordway/ (https://www.aeonmn.org/properties/crane-ordway/)[/size]
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I’ve inverted the blueprint to improve the detail. Unfortunately, I can’t get this stupid IPad to post the image. Here’s a link to a shared google image. If anyone can post it to the thread, feel free.
Alternatively, if we can get a higher res original, that would be even better!:
https://photos.app.goo.gl/roaJq9nCKAajjBsk1 (https://photos.app.goo.gl/roaJq9nCKAajjBsk1)
Cheers,
F.
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Midland clubhouse and mower - 1930 - Minnesota Historical Society.
Their site has some on-the-ground photos of Interlachen, Minikahda, White Bear ( during the match between "Long" Jim Barnes and "Chick" Evans, etc.
http://search.mnhs.org//index.php?brand=cms&q=midland%20hills%20golf&startindex=376 (http://search.mnhs.org//index.php?brand=cms&q=midland%20hills%20golf&startindex=376)
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4800/26808757888_5a1611fc29_o.png)
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Marty's photo - flipped longways for size and cleaned up a tad.
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4773/40680557251_ed19f4e334_o.png)
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Nice, Jim. Cheers.
Higher res original WOULD be fantastic!
F.
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Here's a really nice follow up article on the discovery of the map and the years spent looking for it.
http://www.golfcoursearchitecture.net/content/historic-raynor-plans-for-midland-hills-unearthed-after-years-of-searching
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Brandon,
Thanks for sharing! Great find.
Historic aerials.com has aerials dating back to 1947 for this course. If you look at the Biarritz throughout the years it has changed its look many times.
Good luck with the restoration.
Bret
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Brandon,
Thanks for sharing! Great find.
Historic aerials.com has aerials dating back to 1947 for this course. If you look at the Biarritz throughout the years it has changed its look many times.
Good luck with the restoration.
Bret
For Minnesota golf courses, check out the University of Minnesota's Map Library. They have a huge inventory of old aerials across the state.
https://www.lib.umn.edu/apps/mhapo/ (https://www.lib.umn.edu/apps/mhapo/)
Here is a link to a good 1930's era map:
http://geo.lib.umn.edu/Hennepin_County/y1937/WN-2-153.jpg
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Mike Manthey's Midland Hills blog:
http://www.mhccturf.com/?p=1140 (http://www.mhccturf.com/?p=1140)
Scroll to the bottom of the home page and click on "Seth Raynor" to view MM's hole-by-hole dissection of the course.
Lots of info found there, along w/this wonderful photo of SR:
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4781/40672330342_5d76fa538b_o.png)
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Brandon,
Thanks for sharing! Great find.
Historic aerials.com has aerials dating back to 1947 for this course. If you look at the Biarritz throughout the years it has changed its look many times.
Good luck with the restoration.
Bret
For Minnesota golf courses, check out the University of Minnesota's Map Library. They have a huge inventory of old aerials across the state.
https://www.lib.umn.edu/apps/mhapo/ (https://www.lib.umn.edu/apps/mhapo/)
Here is a link to a good 1930's era map:
http://geo.lib.umn.edu/Hennepin_County/y1937/WN-2-153.jpg (http://geo.lib.umn.edu/Hennepin_County/y1937/WN-2-153.jpg)
That's Awesome --found Owatonna CC (Original 9 I assume) in 1938
http://maps.dnr.state.mn.us/landview/historical_airphotos/usda/wd/y1938/wd04329.jpg (http://maps.dnr.state.mn.us/landview/historical_airphotos/usda/wd/y1938/wd04329.jpg)
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Mike Manthey's Midland Hills blog:
http://www.mhccturf.com/?p=1140 (http://www.mhccturf.com/?p=1140)
Scroll to the bottom of the home page and click on "Seth Raynor" to view MM's hole-by-hole dissection of the course.
Lots of info found there, along w/this wonderful photo of SR:
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4781/40672330342_5d76fa538b_o.png)
That looks like Michael Palin to me......
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The St. Paul Pioneer Press chimes in on the story today:
https://www.twincities.com/2018/04/27/perfect-timing-as-midland-hills-plans-re-do-superintendent-makes-priceless-find/ (https://www.twincities.com/2018/04/27/perfect-timing-as-midland-hills-plans-re-do-superintendent-makes-priceless-find/)
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Looks to me like today's 10th (Raynor's 8th) could be the road hole. It has the proper length, a bunker short left of the green and, in the 1930's aerial, a couple of bunkers at the back left of the green to mimic the road. Another bunker short right of the green might be a stand in for the station masters garden. I don't recall if today's green had a tier or a false front? Mac/Raynor often improvised on the strict intrepretation of the road hole so this adaptation seems possible.
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Mike Manthey's Midland Hills blog:
http://www.mhccturf.com/?p=1140 (http://www.mhccturf.com/?p=1140)
Scroll to the bottom of the home page and click on "Seth Raynor" to view MM's hole-by-hole dissection of the course.
Lots of info found there, along w/this wonderful photo of SR:
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4781/40672330342_5d76fa538b_o.png)
That looks like Michael Palin to me......
Just to close the loop on this picture this is Charles Frazier.
http://theaposition.com/anthonypioppi/golf/personalities/2245/the-mystery-of-faux-seth-raynor-photo-unravelled-by-crack-researcher (http://theaposition.com/anthonypioppi/golf/personalities/2245/the-mystery-of-faux-seth-raynor-photo-unravelled-by-crack-researcher)
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My friend Hal Phillips sent me this nice story and it seems like a good update for this thread:
The lost routing: How stumbling upon a century-old course map led to architectural gold
https://golf.com/travel/seth-raynor-map-found-midland-hills/ (https://golf.com/travel/seth-raynor-map-found-midland-hills/)
(https://golf.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/12/midland.jpg)
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Congratulations Jim and to everyone else involved with the project. This is a perfect example and a great thread to read for anyone trying to understand why it is near impossible to do “true restoration”. A huge part of it comes down to how hard you search for historic information and also as in this case, how lucky you are in what you can find. I am sure Jim would have done a great job trying to restore what he could without this plan but finding a discovery like this can only help the cause. However, as most here know, plans like this still need to be cross examined/compared with early aerials and course photos as many of the classic architects altered their plans once they started work in the field. Some didn’t even add bunkers to many of their courses until they saw how it played. To know what actually got built and then to understand how the architect tweaked it to his or her perfection requires a lot of study and effort and unfortunately some guess work. This is a great example of the challenges of restoration!
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I have never played Midland Hills. It was just down the street when I was in Seminary in the late 60's and early 70's but t that time I had not contacts. On subsequent trips back it never worked out. It is one of the courses in the cites that I'd like to play, even more so now.
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Mike S
Thanks for adding the link to this thread.
If I may throw in a few thank you's to all involved in a very unusual year in golf.
First off, I want say as I have said many times before, when the Golf Course Superintendent has a passion for the Golden Age of design and the green Committee as a whole has faith in the project, you have way more chance for success. Mike Manthey spent countless hours on this project to make it happen. I know for a fact that when he went home, the energy for his Seth Raynor designed golf course never turned off, never! It was infectious.
His maintenance crew gave everything they had even though they were not trained in golf course construction, after the project was done, I know they could do as good a job as anyone out there. You see when you lead by example the project steam rolls, even the bad days are good ones.
The two guys helping me create the look and feel of this Seth Raynor design were also a big positive. Joe Hancock and Zach Varty were as important to the success of the work at Midland Hills as I was, maybe even more. Without the eye for scale, design intent and craftsmanship of the work of the designers / shapers, some of these projects are simply updates to drainage and sand quality and not designers intent.
The reason for such a renewed interest in the revitalization of these masters of design are simple, the quality of each hole becomes more evident. The variety within each hole becomes more apparent and in the overall scheme of things the holes give a sense of wonderment, kind of a what's next anticipation.
The Alps at Midland Hills, I guarantee you will not see anywhere else in that configuration.
The Knoll is a one-of-a-kind feature not seen in modern day designs.
The Punchbowl is a perfect use of the topography given the designs of that era.
The 15th hole is as elegant a green site as one could ask for.
The Eden couldn't be any finer of an example than of its namesake, complete with a body of water acting as the estuary and remember Seth Raynor never saw the original.
I could go on and on, you see even though some would say these template holes are over used I don't think so. They reveal an era of design not governed by the terms of fair and the dreaded U word, Unfair.
Happy New Year!!