Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture Discussion Group => Topic started by: Dónal Ó Ceallaigh on February 20, 2018, 07:00:01 PM
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I was home at the weekend and saw in the local Donegal News that Narin & Portnoo is now closed
DONEGAL NEWS, FRIDAY 9TH FEBRUARY
FAMOUS GOLF CLUB NOW CLOSED
BY CONOR SHARKEY
The shutters have been pulled on one of Donegal's top golf clubs following what has been described as "a row over money".
Narin & Portnoo GC ceased operations this week after negotiations with the new owner, Ballyshannon-born business man Liam McDevitt, broke down.
Mr McDevitt who now lives in Conneticut, rescued the golf club from the brink of closure by purchasing its debt book from vulture fund Cerberus. It is understood he agreed to "forgive" a €1.7 million debt and provide a licence agreement to guarantee the future of the club.
But issues later arose over three holes of the world renowned course that the club leases from a local landowner.
Efforts to resolve the issue have proved fruitless and as a result the club has now been shut down.
Seamus McDonagh is a member of Narin and Portnoo Golf Club. He told the Donegal News yesterday it was unfortunate that things had escalated as far as they have.
"As an ordinary member, I don't understand how it has come to this," Mr McDonagh said.
"The club has a lot of bookings for 2018 and people from all over America and Europe will have been planning to come and play here. With the situation the way it is, they have to be saying, let's not take the chance."
Mr McDonagh said that in light of the discord, "not a penny" in membership fees had been drawn in for the year ahead. As a result, the club has run out of cash.
Mr McDonagh added that the situation involving the new owner was "about money."
He said that as far as he was aware there were no negotiations taking place at the moment to try and resolve the impasse.
"The landowner is getting part of the blame but there is a deal in place. It is what the new owner wants to add to the deal that is the problem. I do think there is a bit of blame on both sides."
"It is sad that it has come to this because most members just want to play golf," Mr McDonagh said.
The Donegal News did contact Liam McDevitt but at the time of going to press yesterday no response had been received.
Here's a link from 8 February:
https://www.irishnews.com/news/2018/02/07/news/one-of-donegal-s-best-known-golf-courses-to-close-amid-problems-with-proposed-takeover-1250760/ (https://www.irishnews.com/news/2018/02/07/news/one-of-donegal-s-best-known-golf-courses-to-close-amid-problems-with-proposed-takeover-1250760/)
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awful news.
May cooler heads prevail....
It all started with a bigger clubhouse and a quest for more card yardage......
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How does a simple Irish GC run up a 1.7 M Euro debt?
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Such a bummer. We are making our first trip to north of Ireland this fall. Was wondering why I received no response from the club. Hopefully they get this sorted out. Court battles seem to drag on for to long. I was really looking forward to cruit and nairn day.
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How does a simple Irish GC run up a 1.7 M Euro debt?
They borrowed to build a new fangled house and alter the course. Seems incredible when you are there and realize the area is fairly desolate. I spose they were banking on mega tourist money.
Ciao
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I have no idea the situation.
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:'(
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Very sad to hear this.
atb
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Well this is too bad as a group of us were going to go to the UK and Narin was on our list.
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Narin and Portnoo is in County Donegal in the Republic of Ireland. Northern Ireland is part of the UK. The Republic of Ireland is not.
Nairn GC is not far from Inverness in Scotland, not far from Castle Stuart.
Charles Lund
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Play once in 40 mile an hour winds with light horizontal driving rain. A memorable round some wonderful holes hope to get back and play it in better weather conditions. Sad that it is closed, hope that something can be worked out.
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Narin and Portnoo is in County Donegal in the Republic of Ireland. Northern Ireland is part of the UK. The Republic of Ireland is not.
Nairn GC is not far from Inverness in Scotland, not far from Castle Stuart.
Charles Lund
I meant Nairn in SCOTLAND, which is in the UK. ;D
switch around 2 letters.
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How does a simple Irish GC run up a 1.7 M Euro debt?
Pete, I know of simple clubs with three times that debt.
How? It was Ireland's first experience of a boom. We thought it would go on forever. Everyone dismissed the the Economist's (and many others) predictions that the Celtic Tiger would end in tears. To be fair, the Economist (and others) was predicting bust pretty much every year of the Celtic Tiger years; they were bound to be right eventually. The Brits had their boom and busts, but we Irish were too smart to repeat their mistakes.
Although the economy may have recovered and unemployment down, the damage is still very visible. Tens of thousands of mortgages in arrears, once successful hotels, night clubs, shops, small businesses and restaurants still shut down, golf courses taken over, house construction at a standstill, house prices depressed, especially in the small towns and countryside.
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I enjoyed playing there. I enjoyed it so much I played one hole from the wrong fairway. I thought I might revisit if ever in that neck of the woods again.
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I'd be happy if "The" Nairn were closed, but not Portnoo......
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I'd be happy if "The" Nairn were closed, but not Portnoo......
Indeed. I loved Narin & Portnoo. The holes around the turn were as beautiful as any in golf. I do hope this can be sorted.
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I enjoyed playing there. I enjoyed it so much I played one hole from the wrong fairway. I thought I might revisit if ever in that neck of the woods again.
On this basis, you must have really, really enjoyed Lahinch.
I am generally careful about questioning the business acumen of those operating golf courses, but I didn't see reasonable value for €80/round at N & P. A scratcher for an opening hole, long stretches in the same direction. and some repetitive holes, I would not be anxious to travel there again at the 2016 price. I enjoyed Strandhill, County Sligo, and even Portsalon more, though all are quite scenic.
I've been accused of being cheap- I'd like to think I am value oriented- but I find visitor greenfees at a multiple of a member's monthly dues objectionable. Of course, no one is putting a gun to my head to play golf, so this model apparently works for some clubs, but perhaps not so well for N & P. (I was also blown away with the pricing at Ballyliffin, which, according to an employee of the club, was meeting some resistance).
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Thanks Garland for pointing out my mispelling (or maybe not ;D ) of N&P. This link might explain my confusion; I have always assumed it was Nairn as we pronounced it that way. ???
http://www.gurnnurn.com/2011/09/place-bit-like-nairnnarinnarann.html (http://www.gurnnurn.com/2011/09/place-bit-like-nairnnarinnarann.html)
Strictly speaking, there are no English forms of Irish place names that can be correct.
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From 13 February:
http://www.donegaldaily.com/2018/02/13/debt-owner-makes-one-last-pitch-to-re-open-narin-portnoo-golf-club/
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I’m just going to leave this here:https://youtu.be/Ij_5UGpjUsU (https://youtu.be/Ij_5UGpjUsU)
STRABANE!
F.
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Stumbling upon N&P more or less by accident in 1994 remains one of my happiest memories in golf.
Does anyone know why the course cannot remain open playing 15 holes while the matter regarding the dispute over the 3 holes on leased land gets sorted out?
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I've a feeling this will sort itself out favourably. Sounds like brinksmanship more than anything else.
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Here is a link to Marks photo-tour of N&P from a while back plus, in reply 46 details/photos by Donal and Garland of how the course used to be.
http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,54377.0.html
atb
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I really enjoyed the course. Shame that they wasted so much money "improving" it, only to end up with a charmless clubhouse and some weaker holes. Still, the high points more than offset the negatives.
No problem for me with the fees. $100 might seem high to some, but when you think that people pay around twice that to play the "Irish" course at Kohler...
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As a reply to the value oriented Mr. Duran I did really, really see a lot more of Lahinch than you did, but I'm not sure I enjoyed it more. I wasn't exactly sure where some of the fairways were until much later in the hole. In fact, I'm uncertain I ever experienced some of the fairways. Sort of like that Spencer Tracy movie "Bad Day at Blackrock" only mine was at Lahinch.
I think the tariff for Narin and Portnoo was a bit steep, but I enjoyed the course a great deal, but I like quirk. I may be the only person on the site who thinks that Tain's otherwise weird opening hole, a bland drive followed by a virtually blind second over a road to a roller coaster green would be world famous if the two barbed wire fences on each side of the road were stone walls instead. If I were the braintrust at Tain I'd see about doing that--how much could a hundred feet of stone wall cost--especially in Scotland where the only thing found in greater proliferation than rocks would be sheep dung. Well, maybe tourists are to be found in greater proliferation, but I'm not sure it would be cost effective to build walls out of tourists. Might discourage the next wave.
And to think this started as a response to a casual insult hurled my way by Mr. Duran, the value oriented golfer.
Oh well, I wish the best to Narin and Portnoo. I hope Robin is right that this is a case of brinkmanship that will end when one or the other blinks.
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Here is a link to Marks photo-tour of N&P from a while back plus, in reply 46 details/photos by Donal and Garland of how the course used to be.
http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,54377.0.html (http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,54377.0.html)
atb
Thanks for that link, Thomas.
It would be a great pity if the course was no more, not just for the local community that benefits from whatever golf tourism passes through a fairly remote area, but the members who have not just each others' company to enjoy, but a wonderful links with one of the most amazing sets of greens around.
It was dirt cheap when I played it in November 2012, less than $50, but if the summer price is $130 or so, that is still great value. There may be a handful of somewhat indifferent, or at least lesser, holes, but 5,6,7,8, 10 and 15 at the least more than make up for it.
Hopefully they find a solution.
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I've a feeling this will sort itself out favourably. Sounds like brinksmanship more than anything else.
I tend to side with Robin’s sentiment here. But let’s see.
There are a few other clubs in Ireland with debts recently sold to vulture funds. So wouldn’t be surprised to see other news stories in the coming years. Hopefully not.
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Doesn't this sound like the classic case of absentee ownership? While the cat is away, the mice will play...
Golf and an F&B operation is a license for someone to unilaterally up their compensation. Pity they are eating into local economy, yet I suspect local players are jockeying for a takeover or squeeze out...
I loved my one play there with
Garland on a real windy day and running into Jeff coincidentally.
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Aye Marty, do you no reckon this is a better take on Irish economics, if no the werld? ::) ;D
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YSpL7nA5Uco
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Aye Marty, do you no reckon this is a better take on Irish economics, if no the werld? ::) ;D
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YSpL7nA5Uco
Dick- I thought you are a paisano. You didn't tell me you have an Irish brother!
Quite a command of the language this guy has just working from talking points on a small sheet of paper cupped in his hand. Imagine what he could do with an online dictionary and thesaurus! ::)
Projecting from the information so far presented, it seems that the 800 or so N & P members could more easily resolve the problems by injecting some €1.5-2.5k apiece and negotiating directly with the landowner of the land hosting three holes. Could it be yet another example of some "stakeholders" wanting the benefits of the enterprise without its responsibilities? Can't blame the locals for trying. Things are much easier when others carry the cost, until they don't. ;)
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Lou,
I doubt many of the members have that kind of cash spare.
On the point of the 3 holes, why not just play 15 holes and be done with it.
Jon
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Jon,
Do we know which three holes are (in part) on leased land? 4, 5 and 6?
I doubt that a 15-hole course would draw visitors from outside the immediate area, and if it is true that many of the members don't have the resources to take it over, the business model likely depends on folks like us who are willing to pay €80 for one time around.
I would be curious to learn what the annual dues are for N & P's members. I am aware of a club in the UK whose single round visitor fee amounts to 25% of a member's annual dues. In comparison, at my home club (TX), the weekday guest fee is approximately 1.5% of the annual dues.
Perhaps someone like Ally, who seems to get the most from small sites, can come in and find three holes in the land owned by the club, even if it lowers par to 71 or 70. Armed with workable plans (maybe including some grading affecting the view from the leased land), the club would likely be in a better position to negotiate a satisfactory long-term lease with the landowner.
Mr. Wilson,
You should know that I don't "hurl" casual insults. In those very few occasions warranting rebuke, I resort to full-fledged frontal attacks. Alas, your comments do not qualify. On a website which treasures "strategy" and "angles", I was merely suggesting that at Lahinch, you must have been in hog heaven. After all, it was the Good Doctor who opined that the recovery shot is the most exciting.
BTW, I also thought that the Lahinch experience was terribly overpriced, but, as you pointed out, twice, I am price sensitive. I did like the course very much and had my many opportunities for recoveries, very few successfully executed.
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I agree with Robin that it looks like a bit of brinkmanship going on here.
What is a hundred acres or so of linksland in Co Donegal worth? What else can you do with it apart from play golf on it? Graze a few sheep?
It is inconceivable to me that the golf course will be lost. Even if the club call the receivers in the assets will be sold - meaning that the course will be bought by someone on the cheap free of all debt.
I know nothing of Narin and Portnoo but if I was involved as a member I'd be negotiating a pre-pack with a friendly receiver and the bloke who owns the three holes.
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Lou,
you are comparing apples with pears I am afraid. What is the membership rate at your home course? I bet it is possible the same per month as most UK clubs charge per year. Also weekday verses weekday & weekend are two different things. Finally, I think you are correct that not many will pay 80 euro to play 15 holes but probably more than if the course is closed. I think the club needs to focus on staying open and then worry about big buck greenfees once this is achieved. After all it is a combination of easy money and chasing big bucks that probably led to this situation in the first place.
Jon
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Sweet Lou
While I agree that N&P is a bit pricey for what it is (I think people sing of its praises a bit too loudly, but that likely started when the fee was half what it is now), it isn't quite cricket to compare US dues/greenfees to GB&I dues/greenfees. It is not at all unusual for a club to charge 10-15% of its dues as a visitor fee...because people will pay. Visitor fees are a serious revenue stream for many clubs in a way it never can be for US clubs. Look at it this way, you can pay and play nearly all GB&I clubs without ever having to cozy up to a member or even say hello to a member. So, a bit extra may be charged for that privilege. Though I understand some clubs take the piss, but no more than in the US in which many clubs have so called "guest fees" rising well above $200. It is what it is.
BTW...I would be amazed if N&P stays closed. It will re-open, but let us hope with more attractive visitor fees :-*
Ciao
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The complaints about the 80 euro green fee seem misplaced to me. Lahinch and the rest of the big five are at 180-220 euro, and many of the second tier courses are over 100. If I built a very good links course in Ireland, I'd charge more than 80 euro.
I think it's highly unlikely this fellow bought up the club's debt so he could lower the visitor fees.
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Tom- mine is not so much a complaint as an assessment that €80 for a round at N & P was not worth it to me. The course is good, but certainly not anywhere close to top tier, and my bet is that a links you might build there would be clearly superior. As I also noted in this thread, I thought that Lahinch was grossly over-priced. I understand that I am not in their target tourist market, and I certainly understand that the clubs can charge whatever the market will bear.
Sean- I think it is fair to compare different business plans, and, BTW, vis-à-vis the members, I much prefer yours over there. There is some advantage to not having to mess with finding a member in the UK to play a private club, though I find that the experience is much superior (can't think of a single bad instance) playing with a proud member, not to say anything about the savings in fees. Many U.S. courses allow unaccompanied play, sometimes simply by calling or writing ahead, but most often through your home pro. For more than economic reasons, I also prefer in the U.S. playing with a member who knows the course and its history. True, unaccompanied guest fees can be very high here and I have been known to pass on some renowned courses which discourage this type of play with an exorbitant green fee.
Jon- apples and pears? The two systems are generally different, largely reflecting considerable variances in culture and economics. In our top tier here, exclusivity plays a large part, but N & P is not close to that level in the RoI. My home club is in the second tier with a course that's competes favorably with some of the big boys. It is a sub-suburban course in an area with greater density and superior demographics than N & P's. Though it generates some revenues from Monday outings and guest play, dues make up the lion's share. Just to step on the course, it is around $500/month.
I suspect that N & P's business plan depends on significant guest play. If, as you say, its members can't spare €1.5 to 2.5k each to re-capitalize the club, I would be concerned with its future as a going concern. There is nothing about the clubhouse to suggest extravagance, and the stated debt does not appear to be outrageous (I know of a Dallas club that borrowed $10 Million for a $14 Million renovation). That N & P can't make debt service with an €80 guest fee and its current member roll suggests that members might need to pay higher dues and/or find a better price point to increase its guest revenues. In a remote site, it is harder to do. All the more power to the members if they can find an angel to relieve them of the debt.
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The complaints about the 80 euro green fee seem misplaced to me. Lahinch and the rest of the big five are at 180-220 euro, and many of the second tier courses are over 100. If I built a very good links course in Ireland, I'd charge more than 80 euro.
I think it's highly unlikely this fellow bought up the club's debt so he could lower the visitor fees.
Tom,
the club got into the trouble it did somehow didn't it! Whilst $200 dollar green fees might be not unusual in the US they are in GB&I with only the very top clubs charging them. Yes, some high rolling tourists will pay the big fees but very few local would and even few can afford to. N&P is much more a local's club than anything else. If you built a course in Ireland I am sure your name would be enough to attract high rolling tourists to it and so afford your high end fees but if you were relying on locals as most courses do I can assure you the fees would be lower.
Lou,
so membership at your club costs $6'000 a year. I suspect N&P is about a tenth of that. Were your club based in Ireland I suspect the GF revenue % would be much higher. I think you are looking at the situation as though it were in the US but it is not. Different land, different demographic, different solution.
Jon
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The complaints about the 80 euro green fee seem misplaced to me. Lahinch and the rest of the big five are at 180-220 euro, and many of the second tier courses are over 100. If I built a very good links course in Ireland, I'd charge more than 80 euro.
I think it's highly unlikely this fellow bought up the club's debt so he could lower the visitor fees.
Tom
You don't mind the green fee as much as I do likely for two reasons
1. You like the course more than I do...I don't think I would organize a trip to go back unless N&P was a matter of convenience when playing Cruit Island.
2. You have more money than I do 8)
Golf generally is over-priced, in Ireland it is once again reaching a level of stupidity.
Ciao
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the club got into the trouble it did somehow didn't it! Whilst $200 dollar green fees might be not unusual in the US they are in GB&I with only the very top clubs charging them. Yes, some high rolling tourists will pay the big fees but very few local would and even few can afford to. N&P is much more a local's club than anything else. If you built a course in Ireland I am sure your name would be enough to attract high rolling tourists to it and so afford your high end fees but if you were relying on locals as most courses do I can assure you the fees would be lower.
Hi Jon:
Yes, I've worked in Europe a bit, and I have first hand experience that the fees are lower. (You probably shouldn't assume you know what I charge for a given project.)
If I do the project I'm looking at in Ireland, I will likely be a part owner instead of taking a much reduced fee. That's why I'm so interested in this discussion. Are the "retail golf" greens fees posted on all the Irish courses just for the uninformed?
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Tom,
I was just talking about the green fees and not what you charge for design. These are two very different things and I would never assumed about what you charge for design fees. I would be interested if you become a part owner will your RACK RATE GREENFEES be more or less than 50 euros though?
I was also talking about GB&I not just Ireland hence I wrote GB&I not Ireland. To answer your question is the price in Ireland just for the uninformed? I do not know as I guess there are some willing to the high price but how informed they are is not known to me. What is certain though is there are not enough people willing to pay once the price is too high for the locals and a club becomes reliant on tourists. Tourists are not going to go to the second tier clubs in any number and clearly P&N could not bring in enough greenfees to cover costs.
Hope this is clearer to you this time,
Jon
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If Tom is talking about where I think he is, it would be madness to have rack rate green fees as low as €50.
I suspect N&P struggle in much the same way as they do in Belmullet as both are off the beaten path. It is not about setting an attractive green fee for the locals. The locals have such a small population that they are all members of the golf club if they want to play at all. Aside from member rounds, most visitors are probably walk-ins from those vacationing in the area or day trippers from other golf clubs or societies in the county or surrounds. The latter will pay rack-rate rarely. Pre-booked visitors from further afield (those most likely to pay rack rate) are quite a small percentage of the income but a very important percentage. These are the numbers (along with walk-ins) that fluctuated greatly between the height of the boom (2006) and bottom of the bust (2011).
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Jon
It is quite easy to set rates lower for members of GUI...I think this is a common approach to attract the Irish just as is the case in England with the members of England Golf. How a club like N&P attracts "walk ins" with an 80 Euro fee is another matter.
The bottom line is the club rolled the dice with borrowing money for things that weren't necessary and got caught out. They might have been better served creating a dormy house given the dearth of nearby places to stay. I believe we paid 40-50 Euros when I was there in 2014. Jumping to 80 Euros a few years later is bad price management and smells of either desperation or greed. Either way, it rankles me when clubs jack prices so suddenly and gives me all the incentive I need not to return unless I really like the place.
Ciao
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It always starts with a &$%# clubhouse!!!
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The world is going crazy when golfers think €130 is “great value” for a local links that isn’t even in the GB&I top 100.
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At this point I almost feel a better marketing plan would be to charge exorbitant fees so that only the most fortunate visitors can afford to play. Say something like 350 Euro. Then the travelling golf fraternity that likes to live in their own little bubbles in the middle of nowhere playing places 98% of the golfing world can’t afford will praise it for being the most amazing remote golf experience in the world.
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Chappers
Do ya think N&P should be top 100? I think so, but it is really not the point. Clubs will charge what they think they can get away with.
FrankM
Out of curiosity, why is £110 your cut-off? Do you have some numbers to suggest this should be the cut-off?
Ciao
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FrankM
Out of curiosity, why is £110 your cut-off? Do you have some numbers to suggest this should be the cut-off?
Ciao
That’s just IMO and simply what I feel “top tier” golf is worth.
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The world is going crazy when golfers think €130 is “great value” for a local links that isn’t even in the GB&I top 100.
It’s not going crazy, it is crazy.
IMO 130 Euro/110 Pounds is what the most expensive golf course in GB&I should cost...$150 US/CAN here in North America.
My contested opinion has been that this current generation of minamilist golf, the second golden age, or whatever you want to call it, where golfers need to travel hours into the middle of nowhere to pay enormous sums of money to play golf, does nothing for the game overall. We are quick to criticize everything in golf that doesn’t “grow the game,” but then in the next breath everyone is hailing each of these golf courses as the greatest thing since sliced bread.
Of course N&P isn’t a modern course but I’ve seen it change from a local, little known course when I first played it for 25 Euros into this marketed “travel” course part of a group of courses in a region everyone NEEDS to travel to. Seeing golfers travel elsewhere and pay hundreds of $’s to play on the moon probably didn’t help the situation.
At this point I almost feel a better marketing plan would be to charge exorbitant fees so that only the most fortunate visitors can afford to play. Say something like 350 Euro. Then the travelling golf fraternity that likes to live in their own little worlds in the middle of nowhere playing places 98% of the golfing world can’t afford will praise it for being the most amazing remote golf experience in the world.
Frank-Those are some spot on observations and the answer may lie somewhere between upping the membership rates while decreasing visitor greens fees. Jon Wigget notes that he thought the annual membership rate is somewhere around $600 at N&P so the idea that a visitor has to pay $150 in high season seems crazy. That said if it’s on someone’s radar that is traveling from a foreign country or outside the area then it becomes a “When n Rome” scenario or must see. The model is different in the U.S. in that you are going to pay either an unaccompanied rate or a guest rate at a private club with no consideration for being a local resident which seems to be the case in GB&I. I like that the clubs take care of their own across the pond. I don’t like the idea of going to 15 holes and hope they get it worked out as it seems like a fun and interesting course to play. Once a course makes its way onto certain lists or garners some sort of hidden gem status there are those intrepid travelers that will make it a must play although many times just a one off to check the box. I don’t know what role tour operators play in getting some of these courses onto the “must play” rota although I would think there would be incentives for same. This is not a knock on the tour operators as that is the way of the world regardless of whether we are talking about hotels, restaurants, wineries, museums, distillery’s etc.
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The world is going crazy when golfers think €130 is “great value” for a local links that isn’t even in the GB&I top 100.
It’s not going crazy, it is crazy.
IMO 130 Euro/110 Pounds is what the most expensive golf course in GB&I should cost...$150 US/CAN here in North America.
My contested opinion has been that this current generation of minamilist golf, the second golden age, or whatever you want to call it, where golfers need to travel hours into the middle of nowhere to pay enormous sums of money to play golf, does nothing for the game overall. We are quick to criticize everything in golf that doesn’t “grow the game,” but then in the next breath everyone is hailing each of these golf courses as the greatest thing since sliced bread.
Of course N&P isn’t a modern course but I’ve seen it change from a local, little known course when I first played it for 25 Euros into this marketed “travel” course part of a group of courses in a region everyone NEEDS to travel to. Seeing golfers travel elsewhere and pay hundreds of $’s to play on the moon probably didn’t help the situation.
At this point I almost feel a better marketing plan would be to charge exorbitant fees so that only the most fortunate visitors can afford to play. Say something like 350 Euro. Then the travelling golf fraternity that likes to live in their own little worlds in the middle of nowhere playing places 98% of the golfing world can’t afford will praise it for being the most amazing remote golf experience in the world.
Frank,
+1000, It's refreshing to see someone other then me with principals, $150 is my number too! The easy money QE racket will end soon. You are seeing more people in the US looking at National memberships an hr from their home that are half or more then full memberships. They can have club life, nice family vacations, and no guilt.
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Marketing is the world we live in and worldwide marketing budgets for consumer goods/services has never been higher (including inflation). Influencers, social media, and other non traditional means of marketing is taking hold as opposed to print and TV. The dollars have increased, because marketing as a science has been recently embraced to where it becomes a necessity and it isn't cheap.
Become familiar with these terms:
SEO - Search Engine Optimization
Big Data Analysis Methods
Etc.
Marketing has gotten much much better due to the scientific aspect of being able to predict cosumer behavior due to huge amounts of data. It is scary almost to see how human behavior can be manipulated by the change of something simple. Even recently there was a 60 minute piece on how Trump won the election and there was a guy who tested facebook ads incessantly by changing just the color of a button in the ad and it got 50% more clicks. Small thing, potentially big deal.
Golf marketing is becoming less dependent on the tour operators IMO. There is so much information out there, that they are being shutout as what value do they bring, unless you don't have time to figure it out. I remember I wanted to go to Scotland 20 years ago and I bought to do my research and had phone numbers of operators. All that information is out there today on the net, thus you have things like online forums, such as this site, where you can find well informed opinions on things unavailable previously.
Point being a high end course won't be high end without a sufficient following, and in today's world the consumer opinion counts for alot (yelp for example). You may charge high prices, but it won't be sustainable despite any tour operators scewed opinion.
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Every other course is just trying to be.
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Sean,
I think the problem P&N would not have happened had they stayed true to the old way of doing things namely running the club within the budget set by members fees and using the greenfee takings for nice to have extras. Instead many clubs turned the members into clients putting turnover before society.
Frank,
I agree fully that the top rate for greenfees is around the £100 mark
Jon
Jon
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Glad to see there are others out there that agree with my cut-off rate.
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My contested opinion has been that this current generation of minamilist golf, the second golden age, or whatever you want to call it, where golfers need to travel hours into the middle of nowhere to pay enormous sums of money to play golf, does nothing for the game overall. We are quick to criticize everything in golf that doesn’t “grow the game,” but then in the next breath everyone is hailing each of these golf courses as the greatest thing since sliced bread.
Of course N&P isn’t a modern course but I’ve seen it change from a local, little known course when I first played it for 25 Euros into this marketed “travel” course part of a group of courses in a region everyone NEEDS to travel to. Seeing golfers travel elsewhere and pay hundreds of $’s to play on the moon probably didn’t help the situation.
Frank
Yes, I too have questioned this concept as essentially unsustainable. Folks are worried about buying local to reduce carbon footprint and for golf we have a trend of building courses in places which are just a wide spot on the road and shipping in golfers. That said, golfers are on the move anyway, so who can blame developers for taking the concept to the next level? However, I don't think the model is going anywhere because there is plenty of money out there and golf attracts money. The problem with N&P is it was hard to attract that money because of a lack of amenities at the club and surrounding area. The club thought a new house would do the trick, but that was nowhere near enough. The result was debt creating a situation where the course was priced out of the range of those who can't afford to play golf in far flung places at far flung prices. Clubs need to figure out their market share and maximize it. Its great if clubs can rely on overseas visitors to carry the load, but that is a relatively small number of clubs which are so lucky. It takes a lot of time and likely investment, to move into more expensive markets unless the club is one of these wide spots on the road jobbies with all sorts of fanfare marketing or has history....you can't buy history.
Ciao
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It is possible for a top quality golf course to cost WAY less than £100, even in a remote location.
https://www.sillothgolfclub.co.uk/green_fees (https://www.sillothgolfclub.co.uk/green_fees)
£55 per DAY. In summer! As many rounds as you can fit in. And the club is thriving - in fact they now exploit their unbelievable value for money as their USP.
If only they'd build some dormy accommodation so that we don't have to venture into the godforsaken town... ;)
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I think we must keep in mind that no matter what is happening to golf in the US, golf in GB & I is so much different with respect to members and costs. My caddie at Ballybunion and Lahinch were club members which is something which would never happen in the US. Golf over there was meant to be a game that everyone could play and sometimes it worked out that the local course was world recognized and sometimes it wasn't but that was never the point of playing the game. If the local course is too expensive for the residents then it simply won't work.
It does seem odd to me that we are debating whether N & P is too expensive at the same time that Mike Keiser is trying to build a new course in Scotland which will no doubt cost at least 3 times what N & P charges. Does anyone believe that the locals near that course are going to be able to afford to play it on any sort of regular basis?
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The majority of courses in the US don't have caddies, so using that as measuring stick is fools errands. Pebble and #2 cost $25 to play in the early 70's. I believe that we are talking about going into debt to build a new house to chase big outside money, very similar to US building big Clubhouses and going belly up. The party will end soon, history always repeats itself.
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As I understand it, folks from Silloth town use the clubhouse regularly as they don't have many options elsewhere. It seems to have both a dedicated membership and a dedicated visitor base.
WRT to lodging, Papa Shanley and I stayed at a local B&B owned by a member. I'd recommend it.
It is possible for a top quality golf course to cost WAY less than £100, even in a remote location.
https://www.sillothgolfclub.co.uk/green_fees (https://www.sillothgolfclub.co.uk/green_fees)
£55 per DAY. In summer! As many rounds as you can fit in. And the club is thriving - in fact they now exploit their unbelievable value for money as their USP.
If only they'd build some dormy accommodation so that we don't have to venture into the godforsaken town... ;)
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Seamus McDonagh is a member of Narin and Portnoo Golf Club. He told the Donegal News yesterday it was unfortunate that things had escalated as far as they have.
"As an ordinary member, I don't understand how it has come to this," Mr McDonagh said.
"The club has a lot of bookings for 2018 and people from all over America and Europe will have been planning to come and play here. With the situation the way it is, they have to be saying, let's not take the chance."
Mr McDonagh said that in light of the discord, "not a penny" in membership fees had been drawn in for the year ahead. As a result, the club has run out of cash.
Mr McDonagh added that the situation involving the new owner was "about money."
He said that as far as he was aware there were no negotiations taking place at the moment to try and resolve the impasse.
"The landowner is getting part of the blame but there is a deal in place. It is what the new owner wants to add to the deal that is the problem. I do think there is a bit of blame on both sides."
"It is sad that it has come to this because most members just want to play golf," Mr McDonagh said.
Jon-
As different as our two private club models might be, there is one common denominator, it is "about money". As the N & P member notes in the article, the new Irish owner of the club is willing to "forgive" the €1.7 lien in favor of the club and provide a licensing agreement that would "guarantee" its future.
We are not privy to that agreement or to the details of the negotiations with the lessor of the land on which all or parts of three holes are sited (does anyone know which holes are involved? holes 4, 5, and 6 possibly?). We do know that the club failed to meet its obligations and defaulted on a €1.7 Million loan owned by the so-called "vulture" fund.
What is telling from the member's comments is that the blame for the closing is placed solely on the new owner and the lessor. As he says, "It is sad that it has come to this because most members just want to play golf,".
And perhaps therein lies the major difference in the way we see the world. We all "just want to play golf". We just don't all have the same reflex regarding who should pay for it.
Apparently, the revenues generated by the €80 visitor fee when added to those paid by members weren't sufficient to cover obligations. Some here have said that the €80 wasn't excessive. The laws of Supply and Demand suggest otherwise. Perhaps there isn't a price point where the club can carry such debt, and maybe the members just have to reconcile their desires with their ability and willingness to pay for fulfilling them.
Jerry,
Whatever Keiser builds over there, my bet is that it will be levels above N & P, and better located and amenitized. Like Sean and Frank, I have reservations about the sustainability of ultra-expensive destination golf in remote locations, but it has become nearly impossible to build high quality courses near most population centers. I do wonder what's going to happen to golf when my Baby Boomer generation hangs up the sticks. Who is going to journey to N & P? I think you are right, such courses will need to look directly to its members for survival. And properly so, IMO.
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If you’re in a remote location, and N&P is pretty remote even by Irish standards, you’d better be pretty damn good or special (or have a very good or special neighbouring course) to attract travelling folks in more than small numbers. If otherwise, it’s the locals who are the cake and any possible play by non-locals needs to be considered and budgeted as non-essential bonus icing only.
Nice course though, very nice actually, in a delightful part of the world, and I’m glad to have played it (about 4 yrs ago) but it’s not special enough to justify the green fee prices being quoted above given the remoteness of it’s location.
An unfortunate case of over-ambition which hopefully can resolve itself so that the locals can continue to enjoy some golf and the employees maintain their jobs.
Atb
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Lou,
I think we both agree it is about money but here in GB&I clubs traditionally have belonged to the membership and have a budget limited to the membership fees. P&N lost sight of this, over borrowed and have sold the club to someone else. Ergo, the members are no longer part of a owner membership and someone else is calling the shots. If they hadn't over extended their debt they would not have this problem.
Jerry,
I suspect that Coul Links will have a similar policy to Castle Stuart which at £60 for locals is affordable.
Jon
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I think you’re all off the mark (or more likely I’m not fully understanding your points). The €80 rack rate only applied to overseas visitors. All locals will have been members and I suspect “chasing the tourist buck” had very little to do with their debt.
Many other clubs (most?) are operating in debt in Ireland. They possibly all over extended themselves with new clubhouses and The Celtic Tiger but few of them over extended themselves due to increasing green fees.
The trouble in this case has arisen because Ulster Bank sold their debts to a vulture fund who needed immediate repayment or sale. A lot of people aren’t very happy with Ulster Bank.
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The trouble in this case has arisen because Ulster Bank sold their debts to a vulture fund who needed immediate repayment or sale. A lot of people aren’t very happy with Ulster Bank.
So the vulture fund end up owning a golf course (minus three holes) and a clubhouse for which they will have paid a few cents in the Euro...
... I imagine that N&P will be on the market very soon.
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The trouble in this case has arisen because Ulster Bank sold their debts to a vulture fund who needed immediate repayment or sale. A lot of people aren’t very happy with Ulster Bank.
There must be more to it than that. The club must have not been meeting its debt obligation and/or the debt was worth more than the value of the asset. The consequence is the vulture fund buying a weak loan (Ulster Bank would by law have to keep weak loans on their books to a minimum). In truth, the club is lucky the vulture fund sold the debt which is why I think the course will re-open. The cause of all this is poor financial management by the club even if it was well intentioned. There is no point in poking fingers elsewhere. It would be interesting to know how much was paid on the Euro for the debt. My guess is when the course re-opens the new owner will be looking to create something which commands more than 80 Euro a round!
Ciao
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I wonder which committee member(s) agreed and signed the original loan documents, who promoted the idea of the new clubhouse and course extension and whether the clubs formal regulations were correctly followed prior to agreeing the loans etc. Might be some bad blood lingering in the area. Not quite horses heads in beds but I’m sure you get the drift.
Atb
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David Thomas,
Hindsight is always 20/20. Nothing about N & P suggested extravagance. It could be simply a case of the eyes being bigger than the stomach.
https://www.irishtimes.com/business/commercial-property/cerberus-steps-up-action-against-mortgage-holders-in-arrears-1.3193710
Sean- I would not doubt that the new Irish owner is into the debt at around 30% of face value. If the "vulture fund" is properly casted as a dark force of greed, perhaps the new guy can come out the angel. At €80/round- and I am sure that many GB&I golfers play for less- I don't think that the course and its location are good enough to ride the coattails of the big boys. My bet is that N & P will be up an running soon.
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Jon: Have you looked at the Oregon resident rate for Bandon Dunes?
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Sean- I would not doubt that the new Irish owner is into the debt at around 30% of face value. If the "vulture fund" is properly casted as a dark force of greed, perhaps the new guy can come out the angel. At €80/round- and I am sure that many GB&I golfers play for less- I don't think that the course and its location are good enough to ride the coattails of the big boys. My bet is that N & P will be up an running soon.
Who says course changes aren't in the wind? There is a ton of room for improvement. And if what you say is true, buying the current place for 540,000 Euros and paying for some extra work could result in the bargain of the century for a potentially very high quality product. I will be shocked if the new owner has the idea to keep N&P a sleepy member club/hidden gem.
Ciao
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I was thinking about this thread and it got me to wonder how many really good holes must a course have to be considered as really good? I am not one to remember every hole on a course, especially when it is one of about 15 that we played on a trip, but my recollection was that N & P had some really good holes, especially up into the dunes, and to me it was a really good course which was certainly worth playing. We played Cruit Island in the afternoon and it was quite a good day which I would highly recommend to those traveling anywhere nearby. Perhaps it gets back to the Doak scale and the difference between a 6 and a 7. So does N & P have enough good holes to be considered a Doak 7? Let's say a course has 6 really good and memorable holes - is it enough to be considered for a Doak 7? To me it has enough really good holes to be a 7 and add in Cruit Island and the combination is certainly a 7.
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Jerry
I think N&P is a very solid 6. There are a few holes which for me are All-Ireland candidates...5, 8 & 17....quite a high number in truth. Plus 9 & 10 are very good holes. My issue is not with the best holes...its the worst holes. I don't think any of the holes over flatish land are even close to memorable and that drags down the fun factor quite a bit...especially as there are two stretches of dullness. The thing which really gets me is these holes could be good and it would completely change the nature of the design. Golf courses are the aggregate of what is in the ground...not the cherry picked best holes. Bottom line...the land should yield a better course....and I think there is a chance this may happen.
I am happy to pay far more than 50 Euros for a round...just not at N&P. For me its a filler game, not the reason to be in the area. Unfortunately, N&P is fairly isolated so unless one is high on Cruit then...well you get it.
Ciao
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Jerry,
I also played Cruit Island and N&P in the same day, but in the opposite order from you. For 18 holes at each, I spent about $140 total in golf that day. And I got to see views like these. Some people (myself included) might be willing to pay a bit extra for this sort of thing. I don't think the N&P fee was too large that it drove foreign tourists away, nor do I think that a smaller fee would have attracted droves more. I think their location somewhat limits how many people they can get to come visit, not the green fee structure.
I would happily fork over $100 to play there again. I agree with Sean about the limitations, but I value the highs a bit more.
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4742/38705615300_69a39816e6_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/21YhoWQ)DSC02947 (https://flic.kr/p/21YhoWQ) by john mayhugh (https://www.flickr.com/photos/94270950@N05/), on Flickr
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4654/39709758394_31e4e98360_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/23v1TGN)DSC03024 (https://flic.kr/p/23v1TGN) by john mayhugh (https://www.flickr.com/photos/94270950@N05/), on Flickr
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Comparing green fees across all clubs without considering their situation is pointless.
If someone wants to set themselves a limit of $100 or $150 and refuse to pay more for a green fee, that's up to them. But the idea that every course should keep its fees less than that or be subject to the wrath of those demanding "affordability" is ridiculous.
As John Mayhugh says, if a course is in a remote location and they understand that will keep many people from coming, but the people who come are not price-sensitive, then setting a high green fee is the rational choice, so that the 5000 visitor rounds they do will actually support the place. Cutting the price in half will not double the number of visitors to a place like Narin & Portnoo; getting there is the limiting factor.
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Looks like a cool course
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If someone wants to set themselves a limit of $100 or $150 and refuse to pay more for a green fee, that's up to them. But the idea that every course should keep its fees less than that or be subject to the wrath of those demanding "affordability" is ridiculous.
As John Mayhugh says, if a course is in a remote location and they understand that will keep many people from coming, but the people who come are not price-sensitive, then setting a high green fee is the rational choice, so that the 5000 visitor rounds they do will actually support the place. Cutting the price in half will not double the number of visitors to a place like Narin & Portnoo; getting there is the limiting factor.
If $150 green fees is affordability, that is a new one. ''Demanding'', no one is demanding. Some are stating we have sense not to pay more then $150. When going across the pond, I'm trying to get away from Lemings, not find them. I'd have no problem spending $100 for a round here, i don't have to pay $100 for a caddie there! When you say ''high price'' that is vague, what is high? Instead of 5,000 rounds, why not have continued selling of the place as a gem and worthy of a long trip for a play. "Take the Long Way Home''. You always make ''Selling'' as a bad thing. ''Death of a Salesmen'' it comes across. Hopefully with the CG and other similar items these courses can get promoted as a great experience.
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Jon: Have you looked at the Oregon resident rate for Bandon Dunes?
No Jerry.
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Jon: Have you looked at the Oregon resident rate for Bandon Dunes?
No Jerry.
Got butchered in the copy and paste, but here is the gist.....
Jan
March
April
May
June
July - Sept
Oct
Nov 1 - 18
Nov 19 - Dec
$100
$125
$150
$175
$200
250
n/a
$250
$175
$100
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Kalen,
still not seeing the relevance.
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Kalen,
still not seeing the relevance.
Perhaps he is suggesting that locals at N&P can afford more, given the rates for locals at Bandon....but you would need to clarify with him.
P.S. I think the GB&I private model is terrific, and I suspect many Americans club would benefit if they adopted it. But maybe what JK said years ago is true..."Private Clubs in America are more about who you can keep out"
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Kalen,
if that is his point then it would seem a pretty stupid one given the apparent lack of uptake last year. JK quote is a little to 'build the wall' mentality for my liking though.
Culture is a mind set not a bank balance!
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Kalen,
if that is his point then it would seem a pretty stupid one given the apparent lack of uptake last year. JK quote is a little to 'build the wall' mentality for my liking though.
Culture is a mind set not a bank balance!
+1, and you guys are ''We are the innovators, They are the imitators'' https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tngOSBtDP0M (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tngOSBtDP0M)
"Private Clubs in America are more about who you can keep out"
The more affordable a course is the more candidates that can afford to be a member, thus the more picky a club can be with keeping bad apples out. There are places with this mindset that are in a death spiral. Usually the asshole % is much higher at places like this. Jkava gets this one wrong. He seems to long to be in that secret society
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Jon: You pointed out that locals at Castle Stuart pay 60 Pounds which you believe to be affordable. I will now explain my points to you:
1. When dealing only with affordability is 60 Pounds so much more affordable than 80 Euros? Don't tell me that Castle Stuart is a better course as the question is cost to play.
2. Based upon the rates for Oregon residents at Bandon there is no reason to believe that the rates at Coul Links for residents will be anywhere near the rates at Castle Stuart.
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Ben,
I concur totally.
Jerry,
If that is what you believe then you do not grasp the concept of local markets. P&N at 80 euros was clearly not so popular with the locals and so above the threshold that they were willing to pay. CS however is clearly correct at £60 judging by the number of local greenfee players. It is not opinion, it is fact but for an opinion CS is certainly regarded as a better course by most for what it is worth.
For your second point. Embo is not in the USA. Anyone who has followed the whole Coul Links development knows that a big part of the concept is including the locals in the whole scheme which includes others doing the accommodation and intergrating playing at the other local courses into the whole concept. Bandon links seems to be a self contained resort which wants to keep the money in house. Coul Links, like CS has a regional concept. There is every reason to believe that the local rates will be similar as the concept has worked very well at CS.
Jon
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... Bandon links seems to be a self contained resort which wants to keep the money in house. ...
My impression (and I may be totally wrong) is that Bandon links is a cash cow that allows Keiser to continue his exploits in course development elsewhere.
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I have played quite a few of the big name courses as well as a number of the other quality courses without the big reputation and my observations are that the buses and groups pull up to the big name courses and then leave the area except for perhaps St Andrews. The proposed concept of Coul Links with respect to other courses in the area is only that, a concept, and there is nothing that one could point to which demonstrates that the concept will in fact come to fruition.
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Jerry,
I think that because the concept is so ingrained in the whole concept for the Coul Links and the fact the region as a whole is actively involved it will be implemented. However, you are correct that there is no way of knowing if it will work but after all 'if you don't try you never know'. I mean, who thought Bandon Links was a good idea at the time it was first built?
Jon
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Open again, clubhouse renovations continue and an architect appointed to draw up a master plan... not sure who that is though...
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Open again, clubhouse renovations continue and an architect appointed to draw up a master plan... not sure who that is though...
Curious...would you have been interested in redesigning N&P?
Ciao
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A couple of things to remember about rates for many of the lower tier links courses:
1. Some offer reductions to members of GUI clubs.
2. Others, particularly those which are part of the North and West Coast Links group offer half off to members of other clubs in the group.
3. Some have regular open competitions with sizeable rate reductions.
4. Some have Society Days, where you can pay a small one off fee and get a rate reduction.
So a green fee paid by an in country player probably is lower than the posted rate.
I sent an email to Trump Doonbeg, asking them if they offered a GUI rate. I got a reply saying GUI members can play for the same rate as other players. I wonder how much of their play involves players who live in Ireland, who are not employees.
I am glad to hear Narin and Portnoo reopened. I will get over there in June.
Charles Lund
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Open again, clubhouse renovations continue and an architect appointed to draw up a master plan... not sure who that is though...
Curious...would you have been interested in a redesigning N&P?
Ciao
I'm confident Ally could've designed a mean new clubhouse :)
cause surely that didn't work the first time....
Narin and Portnoo was once a very popular course with visiting Europeans and really simple, quirky and cool.
Run on a shoestring with a full membership.
The recent (not run on a shoestring) clubhouse and course changes made it bigger and less unique, leaving intact many of the cool holes and adding a few sloggish ones.And have bankrupted the club leaving its future in the hands of others.
A further redesign terrifies me as it seems a race to homogonization.
I really hope I'm wrong.....
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Open again, clubhouse renovations continue and an architect appointed to draw up a master plan... not sure who that is though...
Curious...would you have been interested in a redesigning N&P?
Ciao
N&P is the one Irish Links I don’t know so I can’t really answer that.
Generally I think iconic top tier links, especially those by top name golden age architects, should be left untouched.
Sometimes I think there are obvious improvements that can be made to lesser known, second tier gems. However, to Jeff’s point, I am only interested if I can de-homogenise rather than the opposite. So quirk stays.... bland might go and that includes poor bunker placement which is so often the curse of some lesser known courses...
Bottom line, if something can be made more individual, more interesting and more quirky and it’s the obvious and right thing to do, then change can be good...
But I don’t think many architects think the same way as me about our links courses. And that frustrates me...
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Sometimes I think there are obvious improvements that can be made to lesser known, second tier gems. However, to Jeff’s point, I am only interested if I can de-homogenise rather than the opposite. So quirk stays.... bland might go and that includes poor bunker placement which is so often the curse of some lesser known courses...
Bottom line, if something can be made more individual, more interesting and more quirky and it’s the obvious and right thing to do, then change can be good...
Great comments.
Add me to the anti-homogenization side. What's the point in traveling to see golf courses if all you get is sameness?
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I think the issue of €80 green fees is a non-isuue in this case. Locals are either members, or are members in Cruit of Doneagal or somewhere in the North. Locals will never pay green fees as there are so many opportunities to play these courses at cheaper "Open Day" rates or for free.
In all my years playing golf in Donegal, I never heard of anybody paying a green fees to play another Donegal (or Derry or Tyrone) course. If you're a pensioner in Donegal, you can play in seniors competition held regularly at nearly all the courses. I think it costs around €10 to play in these competitions. You can play many of them in senior, junior or intermediate scratch cups, Open Days, Open Weeks, Mid-Week competitions (for example Dunfanaghy's 14 hole competition) for a fraction of the cost.
Then we get to the inter-club competitions where you play for free (and if you're feeling cheeky, you can call around to the club and play a practice round many days beforehand). There's a Donegal Senior Scratch League, a Donegal Senior Leage and a Donegal Minor League. There are so many inter-club competitions, it's mind boggling. Then you have the Ulster GUI (Junior Cup, Pierce Purcell, Jimmy Bruen, etc.) competitions where, if you're drawn against a biggie like Royal County Down, you also play for free!! When it comes to inter-club competitions, Ireland is just crazy. In winter you also have the North West Alliance where you can play all the 18 holes courses for a small amount. So, locals do not pay green fees, not even the the GUI rate.
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On Instagram yesterday, Gil Hanse posted that he is preparing a master plan for Narin & Portnoo.
https://www.instagram.com/p/Bg6Uj8QlSEh/?taken-by=gil_hanse
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On Instagram yesterday, Gil Hanse posted that he is preparing a master plan for Narin & Portnoo.
https://www.instagram.com/p/Bg6Uj8QlSEh/?taken-by=gil_hanse (https://www.instagram.com/p/Bg6Uj8QlSEh/?taken-by=gil_hanse)
Good news
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Good for Gil.
Good that the course is going to survive.
...but this makes me sad in a way.
Once upon a time this was the ULTIMATE hidden gem,a bastion of homespun quirk, plugging along with a happy membership and a favorite of Continental Europeans on holiday.
Only when they sought to get bigger and better(clubhouse and yardage)-did the problems arise.
I guess "progress" is inevitable, but I'm not sure the members will be any happier with a modern redesign and a lot full of touring buses than they were with a balanced (albeit tiny)budget and a rollicking fun quirky interesting course 20 years ago.
Is it really better to be a member of Ballybunion now than it was pre Watson acclaim?
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So they have to close essentially coz their lacking money. And then they reopen. And then Gil Hanse is hired to presumably upgrade things. Where’s the money coming from?
Atb
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So they have to close essentially coz their lacking money. And then they reopen. And then Gil Hanse is hired to presumably upgrade things. Where’s the money coming from?
Atb
Thomas,
I thought exactly the same thing.
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So they have to close essentially coz their lacking money. And then they reopen. And then Gil Hanse is hired to presumably upgrade things. Where’s the money coming from?
Atb
They are owned by some rich American, No?
Wasn't the closure more about access to some land?
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I believe an Irishman bought it from an American hedge fund who had bought the debt.(heve been follwing the news but may have missed a more recent development)
I guess he has the money, but isn't interested in operating a low key members club on a tight budget, but rather wants another "destination" to attract more high priced outside play....
a cautionary tale for memebrs who seek high priced amenities but perhaps a great course will emerge which will make a majority happy and just bother a few of us selfish curmudgeons who will miss the simplicity.
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So they have to close essentially coz their lacking money. And then they reopen. And then Gil Hanse is hired to presumably upgrade things. Where’s the money coming from?
Atb
They are owned by some rich American, No?
Wasn't the closure more about access to some land?
It could be a formerly rich American unless he dials in the business plan that turns a profit.
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So they have to close essentially coz their lacking money. And then they reopen. And then Gil Hanse is hired to presumably upgrade things. Where’s the money coming from?
Atb
They are owned by some rich American, No?
Wasn't the closure more about access to some land?
It could be a formerly rich American unless he dials in the business plan that turns a profit.
I believe an Irishman bought it from an American hedge fund who had bought the debt.(heve been follwing the news but may have missed a more recent development)...
Correction: Irishman
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That’s an interesting appointment.
Maybe I’ll get to see at N&P before Coul whether one of the modern minimalists can come in to a real links site and produce a subtle, scaled back course that seems 100 years old.
Or whether it will end up looking stylistically similar to other works by the same architect.
I think these sites could be the biggest tests yet for both Hanse and C&C, despite them being on paper the easiest and most natural to build upon.
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On Instagram yesterday, Gil Hanse posted that he is preparing a master plan for Narin & Portnoo.
https://www.instagram.com/p/Bg6Uj8QlSEh/?taken-by=gil_hanse (https://www.instagram.com/p/Bg6Uj8QlSEh/?taken-by=gil_hanse)
The impression I get from Mr Hanse's post is that this is no restoration or renovation and that a new course is planned on the land formerly occupied by Narin and Portnoo.
Nothing new here, of course. Much of MacKenzie's early work in the UK involved building a new course on the body of an old one.
With virgin links land virtually unobtainable for new golf development, is this going to be a growing phenominum?
Old members' club in financial difficulties bought up on the cheap for the existing links course, which is then completely remodeled and "upgraded" into a destination course for wealthy tourists?
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These developments were always on the cards. Count me as one who thinks the course will be better
Ciao
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Aiming to grab a share of this market?
https://www.independent.ie/business/irish/115000-ensures-lahinch-celebrations-go-with-a-swing-36760694.html (https://www.independent.ie/business/irish/115000-ensures-lahinch-celebrations-go-with-a-swing-36760694.html)
Not going to happen for a single course (Irish) miles from the others.
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Plenty of caravans for visitors to stay in at N&P! No doubt lovely and warm inside and all with high spec showers for visitors from other parts of the world used to high standards to enjoy (sic)!
Lahinch...Irish course greenfees do seem to have jumped up a price point recently.
atb
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Count me as one who thinks the course will be better
Ciao
I hope you are right. I will say even in the 90's the members always spoke of expansion into the dunes.
I happen to enjoy a few holes on less severe land and always felt the original had a superb blend of subtle,spectacular, simple and quirky.
Obviously the more spectacular, the more tourists $$ a place can attract.
Sadly not much $$ in subtle.
There is potential to really have a cool mix of what's there and what could be (I never did love the new holes-or at least the sequence)
I hope for the members sake's you are right.
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That’s an interesting appointment.
Maybe I’ll get to see at N&P before Coul whether one of the modern minimalists can come in to a real links site and produce a subtle, scaled back course that seems 100 years old.
Or whether it will end up looking stylistically similar to other works by the same architect.
I think these sites could be the biggest tests yet for both Hanse and C&C, despite them being on paper the easiest and most natural to build upon.
Ally
If they were intending to produce a "subtle, scaled back course that seems 100 years old" then that probably would be a big test for them but I'm doubtful whether that is what they have been hired for. To my eye the Embo layout looks like a large scale course designed to get the tourists round without any mishaps rather than a more traditional looking links from back in the day.
That approach has worked at Kingsbarns and Castle Stuart so it's hardly a risk going down that route I'd have thought. And never having played a C&C, is that how they generally play ?
Niall
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That’s an interesting appointment.
Maybe I’ll get to see at N&P before Coul whether one of the modern minimalists can come in to a real links site and produce a subtle, scaled back course that seems 100 years old.
Or whether it will end up looking stylistically similar to other works by the same architect.
I think these sites could be the biggest tests yet for both Hanse and C&C, despite them being on paper the easiest and most natural to build upon.
Ally
If they were intending to produce a "subtle, scaled back course that seems 100 years old" then that probably would be a big test for them but I'm doubtful whether that is what they have been hired for. To my eye the Embo layout looks like a large scale course designed to get the tourists round without any mishaps rather than a more traditional looking links from back in the day.
That approach has worked at Kingsbarns and Castle Stuart so it's hardly a risk going down that route I'd have thought. And never having played a C&C, is that how they generally play ?
Niall
Oh I agree Niall. Those modern links courses are great adverts and very skilfully created. But they had to be created. And neither N&P nor Coul do.
If you ask me, the ideal solution on links land is to have an incredibly low budget.
That way you have to act like Eddie Hackett in laying out the course and in the construction methodologies... but then bring the skill in the detail that he didn’t.
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Ally -
Out of curiosity, how many C&C and Hanse courses have you played or seen in person?
DT
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Just one C&C, David... a number of Gil’s courses.
All excellent / great. The teams are clearly so skilled they can create features for fun... lots and lots of them.
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If they build some sort of expensive CCFAD at N&P, building over what's already there, then golf will die just a little bit more. However good what they build is.
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If they build some sort of expensive CCFAD at N&P, building over what's already there, then golf will die just a little bit more. However good what they build is.
I'm sure that I agree with you Mark, but what's a CCFAD?
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"If they were intending to produce a "subtle, scaled back course that seems 100 years old" then that probably would be a big test for them but I'm doubtful whether that is what they have been hired for."
[/size][/color]
[/size]Wouldn't they only need to restore the golf course back to the way it was to accomplish this???[/color]
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If they build some sort of expensive CCFAD at N&P, building over what's already there, then golf will die just a little bit more. However good what they build is.
I'm sure that I agree with you Mark, but what's a CCFAD?
Country Club For A Day.
Do try to keep up, man!
;D
F.
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"If they were intending to produce a "subtle, scaled back course that seems 100 years old" then that probably would be a big test for them but I'm doubtful whether that is what they have been hired for."
Wouldn't they only need to restore the golf course back to the way it was to accomplish this???
Indeed they would... That’s the test
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This news makes me a lot less likely to ever visit Narin & Portnoo again.
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This news makes me a lot less likely to ever visit Narin & Portnoo again.
The reason I loved going there was for the all around relative solitude and easy(er) on the pocketbook round of Links golf in a beautiful setting away from the commotion of tourists.
I’m not willing to conside paying the premium they will inevitably charge for having a Gil course and I’ve respectfully grown tired of heading deep off the beaten path to pay exponentially more for my golf.
I’ll now just end up working my way right past up to other courses in the North.
While I do agree with this, I do not begrudge anyone doing what they believe best for their club or in this case-their investment.
I'm confident I'm not the target of any business plan.and like you will simply concentrate up north, where there's plenty of affordable low key golf.
This could actually be good news for Rosapenna, though it probably just makes Carne, Sligo,Strandhill, Donegal GC and Enniscorone area more attractive-especially with the loss of New York area nonstops to Belfast.
Narin and Portnoo and Cruit 9 sure make for a hell of a low key-heavy highlight day though
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Be interesting to see if they do completely reconfigure the course how it routes.
Would seem like unless they use the pretty extensive area inhabited by caravans, most likely privately owned but perhaps on rented land, in the dunes around the entrance and clubhouse there wouldn’t seem to be much space available within the current course boundaries. But I guess that’s why their hiring GH & Co!
Be a real shame if some current holes disappear - 1, 5-11, 15, 17 etc in particular are all very fine if not better.
Atb
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Just visited Narin and Portnoo
course in good nick and no changes
Work scheduled to start in October
Of the five courses played
1. Portsalon--only day of rain but was miles in the lead-did see some of the Arble/Davis issues more clearly
2.Northwest - just a study in old school subtlety, heavily undulated yet "terrain neutral", really compact and fun. recent warm weather had rough down from last visit
3.Strandhill-first time ever-very impressed. Only my love of the two above keeps it from being ranked higher on the trip
4. Cruit-Still my favorite place to take people for the first time
5. Narin and Portnoo has slipped due to quality of the above and the slogginess of rounting from 12-15.
Just too many par 5's in a row in a tight area of the property.
Had food poisoning for 2-3 of the 4 days which cost us our round at Dunfanaghy (a course I really like due to its walkability, highlight holes and low key profile)
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3.Strandhill-first time ever-very impressed. Only my love of the two baove keeps it frombeing ranjed higher on te trip
Is this your attempt at Afrikaans?
As it is expensive anyway, let us hope N&P gets the facelift the site deserves.
I used to be very high on Strandhill, but the greenfee has nearly doubled in the past few years.
Ciao
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Ha ha! Very good Sean.
I'm guessing that 'poinonng' is a variant of biltong. The Afrikaans love that stuff!
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I used to be very high on Strandhill, but the greenfee has nearly doubled in the past few years.
Ciao
Sean, I had to go and check what you meant. Because up until a few weeks ago, the absolute top dollar rack rate was €40 and Strandhill was the best value course in Ireland.
Seems like they’ve upped the top rate to 75 yoyo’s... I knew there was outside advice to do something like that but there were a number in the club who were vehemently against that sort of a move.
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I used to be very high on Strandhill, but the greenfee has nearly doubled in the past few years.
Ciao
Sean, I had to go and check what you meant. Because up until a few weeks ago, the absolute top dollar rack rate was €40 and Strandhill was the best value course in Ireland.
Seems like they’ve upped the top rate to 75 yoyo’s... I knew there was outside advice to do something like that but there were a number in the club who were vehemently against that sort of a move.
Ally
To be fair, the green fee hadn't changed much at all in years. When I played there in 2008 the fee was 40 Euro for the day! I thought it was a steal. At £65, it is simply too much. Of course, with a very weak Pound, golf in Ireland is now extremely expensive again.
Its the way of golf...more money.
Ciao
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I used to be very high on Strandhill, but the greenfee has nearly doubled in the past few years.
Ciao
Sean, I had to go and check what you meant. Because up until a few weeks ago, the absolute top dollar rack rate was €40 and Strandhill was the best value course in Ireland.
Seems like they’ve upped the top rate to 75 yoyo’s... I knew there was outside advice to do something like that but there were a number in the club who were vehemently against that sort of a move.
Ally
To be fair, the green fee hadn't changed much at all in years. When I played there in 2008 the fee was 40 Euro for the day! I thought it was a steal. At £65, it is simply too much. Of course, with a very weak Pound, golf in Ireland is now extremely expensive again.
Its the way of golf...more money.
Ciao
Their tee-sheet is very full. Most of the visiting golfers are clearly Irish golfers who know the great value. However, the last couple of years has seen a steady increase in traveling visitors from abroad.
When I was asked my opinion, I thought there was scope to slightly increase the green fee for these golfers. I was thinking more like €50 but the club have obviously been persuaded that Americans only play a course when it is expensive. The big increase concerns me because the club were building a fan base slowly but surely from those whose expectations were greatly exceeded.
For €75, you naturally expect more and therefore it is harder to blow someone away.
I guess time will tell.
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I am not sure why travelling golfers didn't play Strandhill before...being so close to Co Sligo. I thought the course was a very solid Doak 5 in a lovely setting for a good price...my kinda place. I guess if one thinks the price is a steal it should be higher! Anyway, I hope all works out for the club, I have a lot of time for Strandhill...but not £65 :D
Ciao
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I have a lot of time for Narin and Portnoo. I do for Strandhill as well and would like to see Strandhill once Ally’s changes have been implemented.
As a general aside, I have noticed that Irish visitor golf prices have jumped significantly in the last couple of years with overseas visitors now paying considerably more. However, members of GUI clubs pay significantly less than overseas visitors do.
Atb
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I am not sure why travelling golfers didn't play Strandhill before...being so close to Co Sligo. I thought the course was a very solid Doak 5 in a lovely setting for a good price...my kinda place. I guess if one thinks the price is a steal it should be higher! Anyway, I hope all works out for the club, I have a lot of time for Strandhill...but not £65 :D
Ciao
It's 75 Euros
I'm not really a price shopper as when I write a prior letter of introduction as a PGA member I'm generally courtesy of the course and my son is usually same or discounted so even at the 75 euros he paid it's a bargain for us, but I totally see Sean's point.
-I really did enjoy the course and surprised I had not stumbled upon it years ago in my travels to Carne and Enniscrone.
Anyone played Bundoran? Did a quick drive up but not much to see from the clubhouse.
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Jeff
I played Bundoran once about 15-20 years ago when with friends. We were staying in a cottage beside the course. Generally flattish and open which doesn't make it sound great but I recall that I enjoyed it even if I can't remember a huge amount of detail. I do recall one lovely par 3. IIRC it's a Harry Vardon design and largely what you might call a lay of the land type course.
As an aside one of the other things I remember about that trip is going into town to a hotel for a meal and them playing Christmas songs over the tannoy. It was the 1st of July.
Niall
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As a general aside, I have noticed that Irish visitor golf prices have jumped significantly in the last couple of years with overseas visitors now paying considerably more. However, members of GUI clubs pay significantly less than overseas visitors do.
I just got back from Ireland. Rates for overseas players have gone up. GUI members can play open competitions at reduced rates. Members of clubs that are part of North and West Coast Links get discounted golf at other clubs.
Charles Lund