Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture Discussion Group => Topic started by: Sean_A on November 15, 2017, 03:59:19 AM
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...a good idea or simply the result of a forced property size/shape decision which usually yields less than totally satisfactory holes?
Ciao
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You’ll need to elaborate, Sean. Too many variables.
Most designers are happy when they can use corners effectively.
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TOC is only 50% effective with holes 9-10-11 and 17 (breather hole discussion aside).
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I like them.
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I like them.
Lots of good ones. Think Wannamoisett and Merion West.
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Misquamicut has some terrific corner holes including the 2nd, 6th, 9th, and 14th.
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Misquamicut has some terrific corner holes including the 2nd, 6th, 9th, and 14th.
Mike-Spot on observation!!!! A really diverse property with the contrast of inland versus the holes out along Narragansett Bay.
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Sean
I think how well you can use the boundary is a big issue. The first at Prestwick is a case in point. It's the wall that makes it IMO. Alternatively the boundary can be a constraint in terms of green positioning, safety issues with adjoining properties, length of hole etc.
As you know I always like to big up one of my former clubs and I think Gailes does it well with the 8th hole playing down into the corner. Despite being constrained with the length of hole they have produced a beauty (IMO) with the green similar to 2nd Dornoch.
Niall
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Misquamicut has some terrific corner holes including the 2nd, 6th, 9th, and 14th.
Mike-Spot on observation!!!! A really diverse property with the contrast of inland versus the holes out along Narragansett Bay.
Thanks Tim. Wannamoisett was the first one to come to mind but I see you already took it. ;)
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As long as the land is good boundaries can be helpful - at least they were for Seminole.
Cheers
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Yeah, that 2nd at Huntercombe is a real dog!
I absolutely love such holes.
Bogey
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Chicago Golf Club has four great corner holes.
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The one I play every week is one of the worst holes on the planet. A Geoffrey Cornish nightmare. Agree with Merion West.
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Sean,
On any property under 160 acres or so, the corners have to be considered, as it is almost always required to push holes as close as possible to get 18 holes on the land.
In general, it is easy to work with corners if they are high ground. Low corners, streams, etc., are hard to use for greens and tees, and you get either an awkward hole or you don't use the corner at all, at least until the land starts rising up again. Property low at all/most corners and a big hill in the middle is the hardest of all to create a good golf course.
Property dimensions are important, too. In the US, with our quarter sections, of 1320 by 1320 feet, and hole corridors of 200-300 feet wide, we have been faced with putting four wide holes or six narrow hole corridors on that piece of property (assuming only one way in and out of that parcel, requiring even numbers). Obviously, if the corners don't support tee or green locations, 4 holes is much, much better (and probably is in any case for safety and width reasons)
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My heart sinks when I reach the eighth tee at Leven and can see a group in the fairway, a group on the green and TWO groups on the ninth tee.
That ninth green - tenth tee corner is a disaster. Aarrggghhh...although it should also be added that the eighth, ninth and tenth holes are all gooduns!
F.
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Some "corner holes" were among my favorites during a 10-course trip to Scotland in August...
Cruden Bay – 4
Elie – 13
Kingsbarns – 12
Fraserburgh - 13
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I think No. 2 at Camargo is a great hole and excellent use of land and property lines.
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Whenever I think of holes played to the corner of properties that don't quite work I think of Plainfield CC. Holes 13 through 15 just don't quite mesh with the rest of the course (which I love by the way).
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Elie has several. 1, 3, 5, 10, 11, 13, 17 and 18. I think they're all pretty good holes.
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#11, #12 & #13 at AGNC ("Amen Corner") work pretty well. ;)
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Thinking of the last few courses I have routed, I actually have had a few low corners.
One had a gentle up slope, and we worked a nice "slide the contours hole" from the tee in the corner. The green next to it required a lot of fill, to be raised above flood plain and be more visible coming down the hill.
On a renovation, we restored an old low tee to high fairway hole, but raised the tee at least 12 feet to provide some vision up the fairway. It is a rare up and over hole for me, but I like the looks of it in dirt (and now sod). A par 3 green sits next to it, also raised to avoid flooding.
If the low area isn't steep, things can be done. And, if any creek in the area is at least far enough from the corner to place a tee or a green, it can be used.
The key words in my original post was "In general....."
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15 thru 17 at Cypress work pretty well!! ;D ;D
P.S. Sean I am curious if you would elaborate here on why they would be less effective
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Whenever I think of holes played to the corner of properties that don't quite work I think of Plainfield CC. Holes 13 through 15 just don't quite mesh with the rest of the course (which I love by the way).
I agree with you about 13-15. But the 4th Hole is pretty special!
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Jeff B - thanks for your post 13. It was very informative and helped explain the Par 3 6th hole on my home course: it has a stream that flows along the left edge of the property line and then cuts in front of the green and flows into the pond there. All the area from tee to green is otherwise maintained as rough (and is one of the few always-wet spots on the course) and the green is tucked back and left (literally right in the corner of the property). The front two thirds of the green banks quite steeply down to the pond, while the back third slopes the other way, almost right down to the tree/fence line. And there is a single (but relatively large and deep) bunker all along the green’s left side. All in all, given the constraints, a good little 160 yard one-shorter on a decent local course, calling ideally for a slight draw that’s neither short nor too long, and that doesn’t draw too much either. After reading your post, it felt like I got into the mind of the architect when, some 45 years ago, he was trying to figure out how to best use this low-lying corner of the site. Thanks again
Peter
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Wasn't it a design trend at some point (Raynor?) to route an "outer circle" on a property, and then an "inner circle" in the opposite direction? Bits of this at CC of Fairfield for sure....and in doing so, the architect necessarily hit the corners and edges of the property?
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All
Thanks for the replies. I tend to really like corner holes though often it can feel like the archie ran out of room. I especially like the sort with some elevation change and/or good use of OOB. But I get a kick out seeing all the land used on properties for some odd reason. I guess it is a signal the course will likely be a good walk, but I think it is also a clue as to how archies think. One of my favourites is Harborne's 13th....Colt was truly a magnificent router of courses.
(http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff114/seanrobertarble/HARBORNE/DSC02723_zpsdjrzclau.jpg) (http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff114/seanrobertarble/HARBORNE/DSC02723_zpsdjrzclau.jpg)
(http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff114/seanrobertarble/HARBORNE/011.jpg?t=1387360975) (http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff114/seanrobertarble/HARBORNE/011.jpg?t=1387360975)
Another corner hole I am fond of is Temple's 9th.
(http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff114/seanrobertarble/TEMPLE/037.jpg) (http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff114/seanrobertarble/TEMPLE/037.jpg)
(http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff114/seanrobertarble/TEMPLE/039.jpg) (http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff114/seanrobertarble/TEMPLE/039.jpg)
The Sacred 9's second too is a cracker.
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4304/36033315431_e57d64b177_b.jpg) (https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4304/36033315431_e57d64b177_b.jpg)
Niall
I wouldn't say Prestwick's 1st is a corner hole...though it is very good.
Bogey
Huntercombe does exceptionally well with #s 2, 4, 12 & 13...though it is a big corner for 2 & 4 so the pressure on the design isn't heightened.
Jon
One of the reasons I would dearly like to play Chicago is due to the repof the corner holes!
Howard
For mine Cruden Bay's 3rd is the cream corner hole.
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4462/37851115706_7bb6b76e0b_b.jpg) (https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4462/37851115706_7bb6b76e0b_b.jpg)
Mark
Elie's top corner is very good...13.
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4432/35895562554_8ea662e6a8_b.jpg) (https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4432/35895562554_8ea662e6a8_b.jpg)
Kalen
Corner holes might be less effective because they are generally forced regardless of the land. So for an archie to walk away with good forced holes has to be a big plus on the design side of things.
Ciao
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Some crackers in the above photos. Thanks for posting Sean.
Interesting to note that sometimes it's the green in the corner, sometimes the next tee.
Care needed with playing angles and the closeness of one to the other though.
atb
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How about a hole played around a corner? The 11th at Saunton East is memorable for that. The tee shot needs to avoid a corner of the adjacent property, and the green is tight against the property line. The green isn't in the corner as the next tee is above it, but I always think of this hole as a clever use of OOB.
https://www.sauntongolf.co.uk/east_11
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Tucky
Yes, these also cool hole and much more rare than corner holes.
(http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff114/seanrobertarble/SAUNTON%20GC%20East%20Course/037.jpg) (http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff114/seanrobertarble/SAUNTON%20GC%20East%20Course/037.jpg)
Seascale's 3rd is even more dramatic.
(http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff114/seanrobertarble/SEASCALE%20GC/048.jpg?t=1308727686) (http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff114/seanrobertarble/SEASCALE%20GC/048.jpg?t=1308727686)
(http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff114/seanrobertarble/SEASCALE%20GC/049.jpg?t=1308727686) (http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff114/seanrobertarble/SEASCALE%20GC/049.jpg?t=1308727686)
I really enjoy holes where the archie uses what is given on seemingly on what is otherwise quite ordinary land to great effect.
Ciao
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The 18th hole at Royal Dublin plays around a corner of the practice area that is marked as OB. (At least it did when I played there in 1984)
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I really enjoy holes where the archie uses what is given on seemingly on what is otherwise quite ordinary land to great effect.
Completely agree. It increases memorability and seems to tie the course more closely to its place.
Good call on Seascale. Would really like to get back there sometime. Your tour from a few years back is worth revisiting.
http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,60048.0.html (http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,60048.0.html)
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In the "it's turtles all the way down" vein, the 9th, 10th, and 11th at Golspie are pretty damned good.
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I'm a member of Lookout Mountain and if I am not mistaken, holes are played to every corner of that property.
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I am a sucker for creative, good use of corners even if holes play tighter than I normally prefer:
Pasatiempo 11 and 16
Dooks 11
Bandon Trails 13
Mid Pines 18
Pine Needles 11
Hope Valley 11
Pacific Dunes 17
The Island Club 13
Lahinch 11 and 12
Ballybunion 17
Old Mac 7 (close enough to a corner for me) and 16
Primland 15
Killarney Killeen 4
Ira
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First thought is Medinah #2 Hole 4 which is undoubtedly the result of time more than design I think. Time has created many corners as city development caught up with what was way out in the country. Thinking about St Louis CC with the Biarritz (Hole 2) and Eden (Hole 3) the only reason of which is the corners of the property. For that matter the first hole is also at a corner as is seventeen sat SLCC. A real study in property lines. Unusual point also at SLCC is that the 16th and 17th tees are side by side. Sixteen is a Redan and Seventeen a four par. Members hit the tee shot at 16 followed immediately by the tee shot at 17 subsequently putt out on 16 then walk over and hit the second shot at 17. Talk about a corner!
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I'm a member of Lookout Mountain and if I am not mistaken, holes are played to every corner of that property.
Eric, I would be interested to hear which corner holes at Lookout you think are extraordinary. Certainly the view across the road from 2 green is unlike anything else in golf, but I thought the best holes were interior to the property.
I would add 12 at Peachtree to the discussion.
5 at Rockaway Hunt Club might not be extraordinary, but it is one of the most unique and interesting holes I’ve ever played.
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I'm a member of Lookout Mountain and if I am not mistaken, holes are played to every corner of that property.
Eric, I would be interested to hear which corner holes at Lookout you think are extraordinary. Certainly the view across the road from 2 green is unlike anything else in golf, but I thought the best holes were interior to the property.
I would add 12 at Peachtree to the discussion.
5 at Rockaway Hunt Club might not be extraordinary, but it is one of the most unique and interesting holes I’ve ever played.
Rockaway is a really cool routing with holes out by Brosewere Bay and also back inland through some bordering neighborhoods. It feels completely hidden away until you start to see planes coming in and out of JFK and La Guardia. The piece of land is used expertly and delivers holes with both a parkland and seaside feel.
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I always thought the 7 & 11 crossover at The Old Course worked pretty well up in that corner of the property.
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I've actually been intrigued by this question as the Ross course I played for 20 years in Topeka has an interesting solution to the "problem."
Holes 1, 2, 7, 14, and 17 are all played toward a corner of the property.
But none of them actually end up with a course boundary on two sides of the green.
On 1 and 2 the boundary is on the left, with plenty of room behind the green.
The first has the 2 tee there. The 2nd sort of has an open in back of the green space that's behind the 5th tee.
No. 7 has the boundary behind the green but the 8th is to the left, where the other boundary is.
On 14 the green is located 30+ yards to the right of the corner, with OB behind the green.
No. 17 has the 18 tee behind the green and is still 30 yards from the left OB fence.
What's interesting is that Ross didn't stuff a single tee box back into a corner. Although 2 and 18 are currently backed into a corner neither of them were originally. No. 18 has two tees side-by-side and the one furthest from OB is the better one, and it's almost certainly original, given the location of the others on the course.
The No. 1 green, which currently is close to boundary on the left, has been moved 30-40 yards to get to that position, and the 2 tee was moved at the same time.
So the course plays into a total of FIVE corners and in his original routing he managed to avoid having either greens or tees in those corners. All of that on a property of about 120 acres.
The man was a genius.
Oh, and unlike more than a few modern archies, it's obvious that he knew where the prevailing winds were, because it plays WAY harder in the winter with NW winds than it does in typical SW winds of Kansas summer.
K