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GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture Discussion Group => Topic started by: Carl Nichols on July 30, 2017, 05:41:55 PM

Title: Should putts of shorter than 12" be conceded to pros?
Post by: Carl Nichols on July 30, 2017, 05:41:55 PM
If I'm correctly reading the shotlink data I could find, PGA tour players miss an incredibly small percentage (.1% or lower) of putts shorter than 12".  Given the complete lack of spectator interest in watching guys finish these short putts, and considering the time that would be saved, should they just be conceded?   
Title: Re: Should putts of shorter than 12" be conceded to pros?
Post by: Jon Heise on July 30, 2017, 06:01:31 PM
No.  Not at all.  But I would prefer them to have a huge (like 6 shot, maybe 8) penalty laid on to them if they try to mark it just to line it up...
Title: Re: Should putts of shorter than 12" be conceded to pros?
Post by: BHoover on July 30, 2017, 06:09:10 PM
Um, no
Title: Re: Should putts of shorter than 12" be conceded to pros?
Post by: Terry Lavin on July 30, 2017, 06:47:37 PM
Puhleeze.
Title: Re: Should putts of shorter than 12" be conceded to pros?
Post by: Carl Nichols on July 30, 2017, 07:07:32 PM
Look, i don't really think they should pick up such putts, but putting them has to be one of the least interesting things that happens in sports.
Title: Re: Should putts of shorter than 12" be conceded to pros?
Post by: Mike Sweeney on July 30, 2017, 07:08:47 PM
Love Ernie Els, but:


https://www.sbnation.com/golf/2016/4/7/11387464/ernie-els-7-putt-masters-2016-first-hole
Title: Re: Should putts of shorter than 12" be conceded to pros?
Post by: Pete_Pittock on July 30, 2017, 07:43:25 PM

No, but here are a couple of suggestions I've been mulling over during the week.


I'd 86 the part of the course setup for green speeds and make that a variable. Remember, in the old days you probably encountered 5 or 6 different green speeds in a round. Now the officials have to cut holes on flattish portions of the green.


Also, can those super green books which let you know the exact slope everywhere on the green.


Now it is like watching free throws. For Jon H, I'd sort of agree, but I think if they do it more than once we need to go to American football rules. Throw a flag for delay of game and penalize them five yards.
Title: Re: Should putts of shorter than 12" be conceded to pros?
Post by: Sean_A on July 30, 2017, 07:46:59 PM
Sounds good to me...maybe the game would be better to watch.  Ah yes, forgot, golf isn't meant to be entertainment.  Its serious stuff which requires endless amounts of time to discuss rules on tv and watch short putts.  Jeepers...golf on tv has completely lost the plot and painfully so.


Ciao
Title: Re: Should putts of shorter than 12" be conceded to pros?
Post by: Bill Gayne on July 30, 2017, 07:58:56 PM
All holes should be completed but that doesn't mean TV should show it happening. It's bad editing or production if they show a putt of that length live (obvious exception being is if it's the final winning putt). I hate seeing putts inside one foot marked and maybe that is the needed change.
Title: Re: Should putts of shorter than 12" be conceded to pros?
Post by: Marty Bonnar on July 30, 2017, 08:07:05 PM
I think the cup should be at least 12" diameter. That would be the fairest test.


F.
Title: Re: Should putts of shorter than 12" be conceded to pros?
Post by: Marty Bonnar on July 30, 2017, 08:09:33 PM
I'm sitting watching a formula e thing in Montreal. They change cars midway. The world is clearly spinning off its axis.


F.
Title: Re: Should putts of shorter than 12" be conceded to pros?
Post by: Tom_Doak on July 30, 2017, 09:38:14 PM
Maybe they could change the Rule to INSIST on continuous putting and no marking and cleaning of the ball after the first instance.  That would definitely speed up play would it not?
Title: Re: Should putts of shorter than 12" be conceded to pros?
Post by: John Cowden on July 31, 2017, 12:20:35 AM
That is a spectacular idea, Tom.  (Count me all-in, stymie rule too.)   No concessions of those pesky li'l' ones, but play your ball into the hole!
Title: Re: Should putts of shorter than 12" be conceded to pros?
Post by: Matt_Cohn on July 31, 2017, 12:52:40 AM
Maybe they could change the Rule to INSIST on continuous putting and no marking and cleaning of the ball after the first instance.  That would definitely speed up play would it not?


How? Given that you'd have to wait for a player to read the second putt without allowing another player to hit his/her putt in the meantime?
Title: Re: Should putts of shorter than 12" be conceded to pros?
Post by: Michael Tamburrini on July 31, 2017, 02:54:00 AM
Maybe they could change the Rule to INSIST on continuous putting and no marking and cleaning of the ball after the first instance.  That would definitely speed up play would it not?


How? Given that you'd have to wait for a player to read the second putt without allowing another player to hit his/her putt in the meantime?


The USGA enforced this in the 1966 US Open: putt continuously and only mark once per green.  They didn't want rounds to exceed four hours...  Strangely, they seem to have been quite keen to stamp out slow play back in the 60s - I'm not sure when they threw their hands in the air and gave up.


Anyway, it'd probably shave about 15-20 minutes off a round.  Yes, you'd have to wait for a player to hit their second putt but you'd be waiting on that anyway.  At least this way they wouldn't be able to mark the ball, clean it and painstakingly line it up before they hit the second putt.
Title: Re: Should putts of shorter than 12" be conceded to pros?
Post by: Adrian_Stiff on July 31, 2017, 04:59:17 AM
Maybe they could change the Rule to INSIST on continuous putting and no marking and cleaning of the ball after the first instance.  That would definitely speed up play would it not?
I have been saying this for years. I did an experiment and MARKING IT ONCE ON THE GREEN saved 27 minutes. A lot of players take time aligning their putts with a golf ball line, we have a member that does it on the tee!
Title: Re: Should putts of shorter than 12" be conceded to pros?
Post by: Joe Bausch on July 31, 2017, 07:52:38 AM
If I'm correctly reading the shotlink data I could find, PGA tour players miss an incredibly small percentage (.1% or lower) of putts shorter than 12".  Given the complete lack of spectator interest in watching guys finish these short putts, and considering the time that would be saved, should they just be conceded?   

Dear Carl, 

I love the idea.  And can we make it retroactive?

Sincerely,

S. Hoch
---------------------
Title: Re: Should putts of shorter than 12" be conceded to pros?
Post by: BCowan on July 31, 2017, 08:17:23 AM
If I'm correctly reading the shotlink data I could find, PGA tour players miss an incredibly small percentage (.1% or lower) of putts shorter than 12".  Given the complete lack of spectator interest in watching guys finish these short putts, and considering the time that would be saved, should they just be conceded?   

Dear Carl, 

I love the idea.  And can we make it retroactive?

Sincerely,

S. Hoch
---------------------


Haha.  ;D ;D


I was thinking Hoch last night. Sir Nick wouldn't approve. 
Title: Re: Should putts of shorter than 12" be conceded to pros?
Post by: Carl Nichols on July 31, 2017, 08:38:22 AM
If I'm correctly reading the shotlink data I could find, PGA tour players miss an incredibly small percentage (.1% or lower) of putts shorter than 12".  Given the complete lack of spectator interest in watching guys finish these short putts, and considering the time that would be saved, should they just be conceded?   

Dear Carl, 

I love the idea.  And can we make it retroactive?

Sincerely,

S. Hoch
---------------------


Haha.  ;D ;D


I was thinking Hoch last night. Sir Nick wouldn't approve.


I believe that was a 2-footer
Title: Re: Should putts of shorter than 12" be conceded to pros?
Post by: corey miller on July 31, 2017, 11:33:35 AM

Not sure if you are playing in Pro events Adrian but if it saves 27 minutes in the way you tested I am shocked.  I would also say that I would probably not want to play with the other members of your group if that is what they do in a casual five $ nassau Saturday round. 

Title: Re: Should putts of shorter than 12" be conceded to pros?
Post by: Ian Mackenzie on July 31, 2017, 11:38:31 AM
by the time the player asked for an official to come out to measure the "gimmee", the player could just putt the stupid ball in the hole.
Title: Re: Should putts of shorter than 12" be conceded to pros?
Post by: Pat Burke on July 31, 2017, 01:04:20 PM
No.


BUT, we should outlaw the televising of any putt inside that length
Title: Re: Should putts of shorter than 12" be conceded to pros?
Post by: JLahrman on July 31, 2017, 01:22:42 PM

Not if it means that we'll never see this again:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vm6tTdn-P2Q (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vm6tTdn-P2Q)


Yes those were all longer than 12 inches...but he probably would have missed them had they been 12 inches...
Title: Re: Should putts of shorter than 12" be conceded to pros?
Post by: Peter Flory on July 31, 2017, 01:46:01 PM
They'd have to paint a gimmie circle around each hole. 
Title: Re: Should putts of shorter than 12" be conceded to pros?
Post by: Carl Nichols on July 31, 2017, 02:00:37 PM

Not if it means that we'll never see this again:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vm6tTdn-P2Q (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vm6tTdn-P2Q)


Yes those were all longer than 12 inches...but he probably would have missed them had they been 12 inches...


He made the one that was less than 12 inches.   ;D
Title: Re: Should putts of shorter than 12" be conceded to pros?
Post by: Jon Wiggett on July 31, 2017, 02:15:16 PM
I think they should have to putt out without marking once they start even if they stand on another player's line. Make the game much quicker.
Title: Re: Should putts of shorter than 12" be conceded to pros?
Post by: Adrian_Stiff on July 31, 2017, 02:33:21 PM
I think they should have to putt out without marking once they start even if they stand on another player's line. Make the game much quicker.
Exactly.
Title: Re: Should putts of shorter than 12" be conceded to pros?
Post by: Thomas Dai on July 31, 2017, 02:38:50 PM
I think they should have to putt out without marking once they start even if they stand on another player's line. Make the game much quicker.
Exactly.
+1....or is it +2
Especially these days in the age of soft spikes and bubble soles.
Atb
Title: Re: Should putts of shorter than 12" be conceded to pros?
Post by: JLahrman on July 31, 2017, 03:41:35 PM

I think they should have to putt out without marking once they start even if they stand on another player's line. Make the game much quicker.


I believe they tried that at the 1966 US Open, when Casper came back to tie Palmer from 7 back with 9 to play. If I recall the story right, they were tied coming to 18, and both hit the green with Palmer away. He lagged and left himself a 3-foot downhiller that he had to putt before Casper putted from about 15 feet, and Palmer was already shell shocked after losing his huge lead.


Supposedly Dave Marr and Jack Nicklaus were sitting next to each other on the hill after finishing their rounds, and Marr whispered to Nicklaus "if Arnold missed this one, the new rule goes out the window". But Palmer actually made the putt, though of course he went on to lose the playoff the next day.
Title: Re: Should putts of shorter than 12" be conceded to pros?
Post by: Kalen Braley on July 31, 2017, 03:56:43 PM
They'd have to paint a gimmie circle around each hole.


I like it,  they could take a page from soccers book and have a guy at each hole put down spray foam before each group plays thru!  ;D


(http://i2.cdn.turner.com/cnn/dam/assets/140707182003-spray-2-horizontal-gallery.jpg)
Title: Re: Should putts of shorter than 12" be conceded to pros?
Post by: A.G._Crockett on July 31, 2017, 04:26:13 PM
Many, many things wake me in the night with sorrows, fears, and regrets.

The pace of play on the PGA Tour, thankfully, is not on that list. 

I'm sure there is some reason that I should be worried about how long it takes to play golf on Tour; I just don't know what it is.  Hell, I even enjoyed watching Speith take that drop!

Have you watched an MLB game lately?
Title: Re: Should putts of shorter than 12" be conceded to pros?
Post by: jeffwarne on July 31, 2017, 09:56:28 PM
No.


BUT, we should outlaw the televising of any putt inside that length


Yep, along with caddy discussions and practice swings
Title: Re: Should putts of shorter than 12" be conceded to pros?
Post by: Garland Bayley on August 01, 2017, 12:13:54 AM
I think they should have to putt out without marking once they start even if they stand on another player's line. Make the game much quicker.
Exactly.
+1....or is it +2
Especially these days in the age of soft spikes and bubble soles.
Atb

Trust me Dai. You don't want to putt after I have walked on your line in my bobble soles.  :o
Title: Re: Should putts of shorter than 12" be conceded to pros?
Post by: Paul Rudovsky on August 01, 2017, 09:31:52 AM
Want to speed up play at  all levels of the game and make it more natural?  Simple...make any golf ball with a line or logo that is straight for more than say 0.25" non-conforming...and make it illegal for to mark a ball with a straight line of more than 0.25".  Try watching players on tour or at your home course remark their ball and line up the ball with the intended line...must take a good 10 seconds on average per putt addition time.  If say 25 putts per player per round lined up (most do not line up a 6" with the line) in a foursome that is 100 putts, 1000 seconds, or 16 minutes 40 seconds per round (if if is 15 seconds per putt it is 25 minutes per foursome round)...


and how can we let a player line up a putt that way when the caddy cannot stand behind the putt (or ahead of Jordan Spieth on 13 Sunday at Birkdale) and a player cannot place a club on the ground to help with alignment when taking a shot.


the ball manufacturers can scream bloody murder, but too bad...they can still manufacture whatever they want just a penalty for any player who uses it in competition governed by these rules.

Title: Re: Should putts of shorter than 12" be conceded to pros?
Post by: Joe Bausch on August 01, 2017, 10:15:39 AM
Your idea is interesting, Paul R, but I could see a manufacturer changing the name of their golf ball to:

T–– –––––t

And that could pretty much serve the same purpose!
Title: Re: Should putts of shorter than 12" be conceded to pros?
Post by: Wayne_Kozun on August 01, 2017, 02:12:42 PM
And people would come up with some other way to slow down their putting routine if they didn't use a line.
Title: Re: Should putts of shorter than 12" be conceded to pros?
Post by: Paul Rudovsky on August 01, 2017, 04:47:48 PM
Joe-- see my comment "make any golf ball with a line or logo that is straight for more than say 0.25" non-conforming"
Wayne--this may well be a long term battle, but one worth fighting
Title: Re: Should putts of shorter than 12" be conceded to pros?
Post by: Peter Flory on August 01, 2017, 08:03:54 PM
Then players would make a series of dots that form a line. 
Title: Re: Should putts of shorter than 12" be conceded to pros?
Post by: Scott Warren on August 01, 2017, 11:06:36 PM
Gimmes inside one foot? Nah, make 'em putt it.


(http://i67.tinypic.com/16ixhxc.gif)
Title: Re: Should putts of shorter than 12" be conceded to pros?
Post by: Paul Rudovsky on August 02, 2017, 06:57:47 AM
Then players would make a series of dots that form a line.


Peter--


What about is a player took about 6-8 tees and stuck then in the ground for an approach shot from the fairway to indicate the correct alignment of a shot? 
Title: Re: Should putts of shorter than 12" be conceded to pros?
Post by: Peter Flory on August 02, 2017, 09:54:42 AM
Then players would make a series of dots that form a line.


Peter--


What about is a player took about 6-8 tees and stuck then in the ground for an approach shot from the fairway to indicate the correct alignment of a shot?


There is a rule against that isn't there? 


You can lay a club toward you target, then line up to the club, and then remove the club though.  Nobody seems to do that, but maybe they should (based on how many people you see aligned no where near their intended target line). 
Title: Re: Should putts of shorter than 12" be conceded to pros?
Post by: James Brown on August 02, 2017, 10:13:55 PM
How long was Scott Hoch's putt?
Title: Re: Should putts of shorter than 12" be conceded to pros?
Post by: Peter Flory on August 03, 2017, 01:14:42 AM
24 inches.  He maintains to this day that he hit the putt how he wanted to (inside left edge) and it just didn't go in. 


Faldo really benefited from some missed opportunities from his opponents at Augusta. 
Title: Re: Should putts of shorter than 12" be conceded to pros?
Post by: SL_Solow on August 03, 2017, 08:54:09 AM
If anyone was watching the Women's Open from Kingsbarns  today, Mel Reid who was leading missed a putt that appeared to be about a foot long.
Title: Re: Should putts of shorter than 12" be conceded to pros?
Post by: Carl Rogers on August 03, 2017, 11:48:34 AM
This would result in more rulings &  delays ... was the putt 11 7/8" or 12 1/8" from the hole?
Title: Re: Should putts of shorter than 12" be conceded to pros?
Post by: Carson Pilcher on August 03, 2017, 02:39:30 PM
Maybe they could change the Rule to INSIST on continuous putting and no marking and cleaning of the ball after the first instance.  That would definitely speed up play would it not?


For some of the pros that mark their ball no matter what....this would blow their minds!!!....and I'm all for it.
Title: Re: Should putts of shorter than 12" be conceded to pros?
Post by: Thomas Dai on August 03, 2017, 02:48:54 PM
24 inches.  He maintains to this day that he hit the putt how he wanted to (inside left edge) and it just didn't go in. 
Faldo really benefited from some missed opportunities from his opponents at Augusta.


Hale Irwin's air shot putt at Royal Birkdale when Tom Watson ultimately won one of his Opens comes to mind.
Atb