Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture Discussion Group => Topic started by: Michael Whitaker on May 24, 2017, 11:28:03 AM
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Had an interesting discussion today with a few of the Highlands locals about the par 3's at RDGC and Golspie. It seems the set of "threes" at Golspie are considered better by many, as a set, than those at RD.
Golspie has five 3's (2,6,10,16,17) and they all play to a different point on the compass. Each is totally different from the others, varies greatly in the shot required, and play to a great range of distances.
The RD 3's (2,6,10,13) do not offer the variety of style or challenge of the Golspie 3's, my friends argue. The RD 3's only play in, basically, two directions and (with the exception of the exceptionally difficult second) offer a somewhat similar challenge.
We had great fun playing this "who's best" game.
What say you?
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I give the nod to RD, but not by much. I've only played Golspie once and RD twice, but Golspie was recovering from some conditioning issues which has some bearing on my choice (and obviously experience). #2 and #6 at RD really impressed me.
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Mike
Indeed, an interesting question and I’m probably not best to comment but that’s never stopped me from wading in before ! So…..
Of the RD par 3’s the best two are the 2nd and the 13th. The only thing that detracts from the 2nd for me is that the gorse is too close (or at least it was last time I was there). The 13th in some respects is a fairly standard design but just done very well. It reminds me a bit of the 10th at NB, except that the NB green is more angled.
I can’t say I think a huge amount of the other two par 3’s at RD. The 6th is a basic benched in green that doesn’t offer the same strategy option that the 2nd does, while the front cross bunker makes the 10th near impossible down wind or even with little wind for your average punter I suspect. Can’t help thinking with a little remodelling of that bunker it could be made a much better hole
I’ve only played Golspie once so harder to remember but no clunkers from what I remember although the hole with the ponds in front would be better without the ponds IMO. The stand out hole is the 16th and probably the best between the two courses. Not a lot in it but probably Golspie by a head.
You will note that I only mentioned wind once. I think it matters not a jot which way the hole faces because at some point you are going to winds from all directions. In that respect I think holes should be at least playable irrespective of wind direction hence my criticism of the 10th at RD unless of course it was designed with the intent that you bounced the ball over the bunker, but I tend to think not !
Niall
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Re: the 10th played Dornoch twice last week, first time into a wind, which was fine, but second time with a bit of breeze behind. I stuffed the shot but bounced the ball over the bunker, while one of the party nobbed it off the tee only for it to worm its way onto the green between the centre and right hand bunker. We couldn't believe it. Seems the play downwind is a stout putt!
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Golspie.
Dornoch is one of my favourite courses. The par threes are more elegant than at Golspie but not as much fun. And without the variety.
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To me the most interesting of all the par-3's combining both courses is the 2nd at Royal Dornoch. But the next 5 would all be from Golspie with the others from RD propping up the listing.
Anyone care to add those at Brora into the mix? Maybe even Tain or Skibo?
Atb
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Golspie edges it for me.
The greens on 6, 10 and 16 at Golspie are fantastic and the 2nd is no slouch either. The only one of Golspie's par 3s I wasn't that keen on was 17, which I thought was fairly ordinary and a bit of a long slog. One of my playing partners told me Mackenzie had a hand in the two-tiered 16th green - can anyone verify this?
I think the 2nd and 6th are the best par 3s at Dornoch. The 13th is a solid hole but not in the same class as the other two and the 10th has its issues due to a lack of playability downwind. Despite this slight criticism, Dornoch is still up there as one of the best courses I've played.
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There is someone who knows both courses intimately. I wonder when David Tepper will chime in here......... ;D
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I'm in the Golspie camp, although I did like Dornoch's 6th a lot. Both 2 and 10 were a crap shoot. Lots more variety at Golspie and all five very playable.
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"The 13th is a solid hole but not in the same class as the other two"
The new elevated tee on 13th at RD improves the "look" of the hole greatly. From the new tee, you get to see almost the entire surface of the green as well as a sweeping view of the beach and the Dornoch Firth. If the new tee box is not being used on the day you play there, be sure to take 20-30 seconds to walk up on the tee to admire the view.
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David,
the new tee may improve the visual but does it improve the hole? By the lack of mention of this by you I suspect not. Still, I will get a look at it tomorrow so will be able to form my own opinion. It will also be the first time I will have played the 13th since 1987.
As to the question it is hands down Golspie for me. Excellent set with variety in the length, direction and challenge of the hole. If I have one gripe about Dornoch it is the fact that the par 3s all ask the same question with the 10th being the worst of the bunch.
Jon
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Both sets are good. I think if the gorse was cleared out for Dornoch's 2nd that I would choose Dornoch...because the 2nd is the only really potential world class short hole on either course. As it is though, with gorse crowding the hole, I would go with Golspie, but its a close run thing because I think Dornoch's 6th is the second best short hole of the lot. That said I don't care for the 10th and I despise the walk back for 13...the hole isn't good enough to justify the walk.
So there is a new tee on Dornoch's 13th...making the walk back to the tee even further?
Ciao
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Somebody is trying to get on Teppers good side! I am so glad that I played Golspie with him - my wife hung a picture she took of the course in our den.
I thought the 16th was just a super hole and very photogenic.
Now that I think of it, they were all great.
But I have a special place in my heart for R D.
Fun discussion, but it just comes down to opinion and taste.
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To supplement this discussion:
A photo tour of Golspie
http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,40126.0.html (http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,40126.0.html)
And a tour of Dornoch
http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,40107.msg842696.html#msg842696 (http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,40107.msg842696.html#msg842696)
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Several of you have mentioned gorse that encroaches on #2 at RD, but I don't recall it being an issue from my visit there in 2013. Has it been added (or allowed to grow in) since then? I recall the hole as clearly the best (and most challenging) of the par-3s at the two courses.
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Andy
My recollection of the 2nd at RD, certainly anytime I've played it in recent years, is that it is very hard to be right of the green or indeed fall off the green to the right and not end up in the gorse. That might be more perception than fact but I don't think so. Not sure of the left side as I'm more of a slicer than a hooker.
I suppose you could argue that the penalty for missing accentuates the lay up option but I tend to think the recovery from the side of the green would be tough enough (and more fun than playing out of a gorse bush) to make you think of laying up. When all said and done, how often do you come across a par 3 that offers strategic options.
Niall
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I'd be curious to know the percentage of tee shots that reach and stay on the 2nd green at Royal Dornoch. I suspect the percentage would not be high.
Atb
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"One of my playing partners told me Mackenzie had a hand in the two-tiered 16th green - can anyone verify this?"
David M. -
I have never heard anything at all about Mackenzie being involved at Golspie.
DT
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Dave Tepper might remember the reason I have fond memories for the 17th at Golspie. I generally don't like par threes where I hit driver, but #17 at Golspie is one I will remember.
Charles Lund
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David
I don't think anyone at the MacK Society have heard of it either. I suspect someone once called it a McKenzie style green because of the tiers and then people assumed he designed it.
Niall
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Niall,
I suspect you are right as Golspie is all Braid as far as I'm aware. The 16th wouldn't look out of place on a MacKenzie course though so easy to see how someone could make the (incorrect) assumption.
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@michaelwhitaker I'd assume Mr. Jerry Kluger, your current traveling companion, was part of the conversation with the locals.
Assuming that he didn't accidentally (or intentionally) start an international incident, curious to hear his opinion on the topic?
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The new 13th tee, though only a few feet left and a few feet taller, makes the hole look a lot different to me.
The assistant super told me about it before I saw it for myself. I was very skeptical because I feared it would make the player carry the left bunker.
It's the same yardage but allows you to see much more if not all the green and more of the trouble around it. I'd be fine if the club got rid of the old tee.
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With ignorant bliss I hit the left front corner of the 2nd at RD and stayed on the green. Did not play Golspie but did stop by and see a few of the holes.
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This new tee at the 13th RDGC, how old is it ?
Niall
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Niall C. -
This is the 2nd season the new tee on #13 has been in play. Some days the yellow markers are up there. Other days the red markers are.
DT
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When we played #13 from the lower tee my wife was on the green with a great shot. It was a best ball tourney and my shot went haywire.
Mr Manning, a diplomat, diplomatically said), "take a look at the upper tee", which I did. It made the par threes look better, as my wife sank the putt.
Thanks again David !
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The new 13th tee was not even born, Niall (at least last year).
As for the short hole comparisons, Golspie has more variety (as does Brora) but neither comes close GCA-wise to Dornoch vis a vis strategy and execution. All but 13 at Dornoch require serious thinking before choosing a club and how you will hit it, and what you might do if you do not execute your thinking properly. Hit a bad tee shot at 2, 6 and 10 at Dornoch and you are in serious doo-doo. Miss any of the Golspie/Brora short holes and you lose a shot at worst, unless you are incompetent or stupid. IMHO.
Rich
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Rich
With the exception of the 2nd at RD I'm not sure what strategy there is there. Certainly they are more penal in the sense there is more of a penalty if you miss (from what I recall at Golspie) but as Tom Simpson said, the best shot is the recovery shot and in that regard I think Golspie offers you better options.
Niall
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Rich,
sorry but the par threes at Dornoch have a total lack of strategic variety. Its hit the green or face a nigh on impossible recovery. The 2nd and 6th do offer the lay up option which makes them a little different to the 10th and 13th which are hit the green or nothing. I played this week and hit 6 iron to the 2nd and 6th with a wedge required for the 10th and 9 iron for 13th so no real variety of length. I also think that the 10th would be much improved with the removal of the front bunker and the 13th could lose all the bunkers in front of the green and be a much better hole. I agree that the 2nd and 6th are very good holes but there is absolutely no variety in the challenge.
Jon
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Weighing in on behalf of the incompetent and/or stupid, I am currently staying in Dornoch but playing Golspie. In fact, I played Golspie with this thread in mind.
To begin with: using the logic of the NCAA Championship committee, Golspie starts out with a big advantage as they have the extra par three and thus a 25% advantage in data points.
Returning to the real world, I considered that two of Golspie's par three, 2 and 6, have greens that essentially gather the ball on most approaches and recoveries. 10 on the other hand will deflect a shot that either comes in a bit short or carries to a reverse slope. Recovery options on 10 are not as straight forward as on the previous holes, but once on the green it is benign.
The 16th is a specival hole. I have heard the Mackenzie rumor from a member at Golspiebut have no way of confirming or refuting it. I don't think it is an easy hole to deal with on the approach or the recovery, or the next recovery, etc. Given the wind, the elevated nature of the green and the severity of the slopes, I think this hole equals any of those at Dornoch in terms of challenge from the tee and then the options and potential for creativity in recovering. Being left or right and above a hole cut on the first tier demands a thoughtful and deftly executed solution.
Seventeen, though difficult to reach for the shorter hitter (my hand is in the air) into the wind which it usually is, is not a particularly good hole. The option of playing short of the rampart and then pitching onto the green should guarantee a four or even an occasional three as the green is not severe. Described earlier as a long slog, that judgment may be a bit harsh but does seem mostly apt.
So, given that Golspie has the extra hole, of more varying lengths, and that they effectively box the compass, how do we award the best par threes decision to Dornoc?
Probably on the basis of something I read here years ago. The quality of a golf course is best determined by the recovery options for missing greens. If it is too easy then the course is clearly easy and not good. If it is impossible or virtually so then we have a hard course perhaps suitable for championship play but not a great course. Great courses allow you to miss and to recover but they require you to use a variety of means, chips, pitches, putts. The man who said this originally said it better and in a more succinct fashion, but it has stuck with me. I wish he would step forward and identify himself if he still posts on here.
I think Dornoch has a slight edge, and I say this as a several years running overseas member at Golspie, but I do think that Golspie has the advantage in terms of variety and sheer fun.
An interesting topic. It's always good to challenge the sacred coos of golf.
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Like many who have commented here, I have had the privilege of taking tours of both Golspie and Dornoch with my friend Mr. Tepper.
It's a terrific question to ask, which group of 3s is better. My response is if I was asked to play a set of 3s for the rest of my life, it would be Golspie, and if I was asked to play one of the courses for the rest of my life it would be Dornoch.
Does that answer the question or is it a Tepper-pleasing cop-out?? :D
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The new 13th tee was not even born, Niall (at least last year).
As for the short hole comparisons, Golspie has more variety (as does Brora) but neither comes close GCA-wise to Dornoch vis a vis strategy and execution. All but 13 at Dornoch require serious thinking before choosing a club and how you will hit it, and what you might do if you do not execute your thinking properly. Hit a bad tee shot at 2, 6 and 10 at Dornoch and you are in serious doo-doo. Miss any of the Golspie/Brora short holes and you lose a shot at worst, unless you are incompetent or stupid. IMHO.
Rich
. How do I know that a 6 on the card is quite possible on Dornoch #10 if you miss the green just a wee bit to the right? It was like a trip to the endodontist.