Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture Discussion Group => Topic started by: Ronald Montesano on April 14, 2017, 04:46:48 PM
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From Ran's recent thread on bunkering at Augusta National:
"Peachtree opens with a bang on the first three holes, but then settles down considerably. Peachtree's 1st green is the only one I recall being on par with the likes of the 1st, 3rd, 5th, 8th, 13th and 14th at ANGC."
I've read similar ideas on Spyglass Hill, another RTJSR great course. Did Senior ever get "it" done on all 18 holes, as we suggest with Raynor, Wilson, CBM, and other great architects/designs?
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Spyglass has more architectural interest than any of the other great courses on the Monterey Peninsula. IMVHO. Just like Cypress, the best holes on SH are the inland holes, if you are not tempted by eye candy.
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I will nominate the Golden Horseshoe and Cochiti Lake as two complete examples of RTJ quality throughout.
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I think that might be a somewhat harsh description of Peachtree. It's a fine golf course with very solid greens. The best hole on the course might very well be 12 which doesn't really even need bunkers.
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RTJ definitely got "it" done at Peachtree and the Dunes Club.
History will ultimately view the GCA dark ages as not so dark.
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Mark - I don't know enough to know whether you're right or not, but I've often wondered what babies we might've thrown out with the bath-water when we designated that period The Dark Ages.
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The Dark Ages were originally 1885 to 1900 as designated by Tom Simpson... A marketing ploy as much as anything.
Seeing as those years are now no longer referred to as The Dark Ages, was it this website that decided the post-war 40 years were to be called the same? Or did that title originate elsewhere?
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My guess is Pauma Valley (north of San Diego) is a good example of RTJ's complete handiwork and is likely untouched/intact since it opened 55 or so years ago.
Hominy Hill (originally built for one man, but now a public course, in Monmouth County, NJ) could be another.
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James, What about that long and boring par five (15) on the back nine at the Horseshoe? The par four holes from 5, 8, 9, 10 all meld into one for me. I love the holes around the ponds, and they tend to distract me from the aforementioned ones. I'd love to hear your defense of those holes.
Here is an over head for anyone who does not know the course. Currently under renov by Rees, reopening this summer:
https://course.bluegolf.com/bluegolf/course/course/goldenhorseshoegold/aerial.htm#
I will nominate the Golden Horseshoe and Cochiti Lake as two complete examples of RTJ quality throughout.
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Hey, Mark.
Dunes Club is a course I like, but that's because I can fly the ball into greens. Not a course you want to play if you bump and run it. The abundance of doglegs, combined with pinched drive zones, makes me wonder what it would be like if they would use fairway cut up to the trees. Let the ball run out and not have such thick rough.
Course Tour: http://www.bestapproachflyovers.com/DGB_dunesgolf/flyovers.html
As far as the other posit, about the dark ages not being so dark, I don't agree. I'm a fan of playable, not punitive, and I think that the dark ages emphasized punitive (often as the architect was at the mercy of a greedy owner who wanted a Monster) at the expense of accessible golf for all skill and style levels.
RM
RTJ definitely got "it" done at Peachtree and the Dunes Club.
History will ultimately view the GCA dark ages as not so dark.
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Actually, when I have gone back to play RTJ courses, including PT and even Hazeltine, I found I liked his green contours more than I did on the first play. Gaining an appreciation for something on subsequent rounds is usually a sign of pretty good design, isn't it?
For the most part, his contours were based on tiers and ridges dividing his big greens, but he did a clever job of wobbling and waving them so they didn't always resemble tiers. He rarely did the individual interior mound (a la Doak "random contours" although No 2 at PT had a large knob, and I suspect over hundreds of courses, most of which I have not played, he tried different features more than I know.
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RTJ had to be a very interesting phenom in the golf business. If you haven't read the book read it. I'm not real sure he worked on "micro" in his designs and probably wasn't as concerned with the "macro" as much as he was selling the next deal and making sure no one else was in is way. All indicators say that to me. I really like and enjoy a few RTJ designs, with Peachtree being my favorite. But I just don't know how much of that was him and not someone else. He was so consumed by being being the top dude that I just don't see him doing much design. My wife's uncle was John Schmeisser who was his head construction guy (Florida Golf) for almost 30 years. He was very good to him and his family during his terminal illness in the 80's and during that tme I was fortunate to spend probably 10-12 hours with RTJ during weddings etc. Not once did he compliment another architect. My personla opinion is that Dick Wilson had his number and much time was spent making him into something tht wasn't nearly as bad as depicted. And I think Wilson had better designs. I think he was the main reason RTJ wanted architecture to be a profession and not a craft.
I once let his construction crew work on a project as they were completing the RTJ trail and a few needed something to do. That crew placed a rootzone mix in 9 greens in one day...That just can't be done....
Read the book...as much as I like some of his work, Im just not sure he ever really got it and took the time to contemplate his work. The book makes me think he just wasn't the type to do so. JMO
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I am never sure what is really a Trent Jones ,Sr. Course. Did he really do the Horshshoe Bay courses, the Alabama courses,etc. Is the course on the Big Island a good representation of his work? I assume Spyglass is. The courses always seem broad shouldered and play up to greens which makes it tough to evaluate the bunkers.
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James, What about that long and boring par five (15) on the back nine at the Horseshoe? The par four holes from 5, 8, 9, 10 all meld into one for me. I love the holes around the ponds, and they tend to distract me from the aforementioned ones. I'd love to hear your defense of those holes.
Here is an over head for anyone who does not know the course. Currently under renov by Rees, reopening this summer:
https://course.bluegolf.com/bluegolf/course/course/goldenhorseshoegold/aerial.htm# (https://course.bluegolf.com/bluegolf/course/course/goldenhorseshoegold/aerial.htm#)
I will nominate the Golden Horseshoe and Cochiti Lake as two complete examples of RTJ quality throughout.
True that there are a lot of doglegs with the same or similar turn angles at Golden Horseshoe. But very few straight away holes.
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I believe that it is common knowledge that Roger Rulewich did the Alabama Trail courses.
I am never sure what is really a Trent Jones ,Sr. Course. Did he really do the Horshshoe Bay courses, the Alabama courses,etc. Is the course on the Big Island a good representation of his work? I assume Spyglass is. The courses always seem broad shouldered and play up to greens which makes it tough to evaluate the bunkers.
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Spyglass has more architectural interest than any of the other great courses on the Monterey Peninsula. IMVHO. Just like Cypress, the best holes on SH are the inland holes, if you are not tempted by eye candy.
You must really like drop shot par threes, downhill fives and strong long uphill fours....
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Dunes Cluub.
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Regarding Pauma Valley, both the 8th and 17th fairways were reengineered (vandalized is a better description) by Ted Robinson after the 1978 flood which wiped both holes and the entire river bottom. Incidentally, Ted was the civil engineer hired by John Wayne's kids (USC connection) to plan the housing, roads, etc. for the transformation of the ranch into a posh golf development
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Even after what I write above, in response to another Dunes Club supporter? I like it, too, but that's because I have the shots to play it.
Dunes Cluub.
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Ron,
Green Lakes State Park.
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Nearly in my back yard. I had heard that about it. I also heard that Rocherster's Durand-Eastman, in its original form (before the local authoritays changed it to put in ... what else? ... a road) was specatacular.
http://www.roberttrentjonessociety.com/
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I haven't played too many RTJSr courses, but from my limited (maybe 10 course) experience, his best seem to be those that keep to the Golden Age feel of his forebears.
I've liked trips around courses like Green Lakes, Cornell, Colgate, Portsmouth CC to the point where I might seek out his older/more low-key courses in the future. His later-career courses I've seen (often more well-known) seem like too much wheel re-inventing to me.
Edit: deleted mis-appropriation on Sugarloaf
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Sugarloaf is Bobby, not Trent.
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I enjoyed Carambola.
Montauk is pretty good.
Always enjoyed his greens-not so much his ideas on fairway bunkering placment-many of which carried over to future Open Doctors
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The Heather course at Boyne is good...
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Going to replay the RTJ at Treetops this summer, not sure how much involved he was with it. Enjoyed it when I was 18, looking forward to seeing what I think of it now. It helps when you have fantastic land. The Heather at Boyne has repetitious par 3's. Played US AM qualifier there 1 or 2 times.
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I play RTJ’s Tanglewood NC course fairly frequently because it is inexpensive and because I live only a mile away. For me, an aging 18 handicapper, it is boring.
Shouldn’t a measure of greatness for a course (and architech) be how easy or difficult it is to figure out how to score? I probably wouldn’t understand TOC after a dozen rounds, but it only took two rounds to decipher Tanglewood. At least it did for a duffer like me.
The only Doak course I have played is Dismal Red. No single strategy works on all the holes there. I would enjoy playing it over and over to discover the best ways (FOR ME) to play each hole.
Tanglewood is penal if you are wild and has about fifty* sand bunkers surrounding each green. For a duffer the strategy is simple, especially since the greens require an aerial approach.
All one must do is play safe off the tee, lay up short of the greenfront bunkers and chip as close as possible for a par putt or an easy bogey. So a duffer can score – but it is still boring. If Tanglewood is a decent example of an RTJ course than I am not impressed.
Am I “out of bounds” here? Is the ability to “solve” a course a decent measuring stick for rating it?
*Possibly exaggerated
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Nearly in my back yard. I had heard that about it. I also heard that Rocherster's Durand-Eastman, in its original form (before the local authoritays changed it to put in ... what else? ... a road) was spectacular.
Ron,
I've heard much the same about Durand-Eastman and being a Muni Rat I've been wanting to get up there for some time now. I'll give you a shout when I'm in the area next.
As far as Green Lakes State Park, I played it once back in high school so I can't vouch for it's present day condition or architectural integrity. However, the kids and grandkids are planning a camping trip there in August so I'm likely to play it again now 40-plus years later.
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Shady Oaks, Fort Worth
Nice routing with great variety of holes over hilly terrain. Several wonderful greens , often large, with nice interior contours.
Fornt nine is especially strong: fifth a superb long par three and long holes at six and number eight:
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I have always enjoyed Valencia CC in Socal. Not spectacular but good start to finish and loved the greens.
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Bob, I went to Wake Forest and played Tanglewood west more than any other course in the area (should have caddied at Old Town--what was I thinking!?!?)
You hit it on the head. That was a style that RTJSR employed for a good while, because professional golfers told architects that was the best way to defend par. It is so boring and drives golfers away from the game. If I played that course, I would always move up a deck or two, to ensure an ability to reach greens in regulation.
RTJSR has other courses that don't demand such nonsense, but he never embraced the Scottish game (if he even knew what it was) and its multiple options.
Tanglewood is penal if you are wild and has about fifty* sand bunkers surrounding each green. For a duffer the strategy is simple, especially since the greens require an aerial approach.
All one must do is play safe off the tee, lay up short of the greenfront bunkers and chip as close as possible for a par putt or an easy bogey. So a duffer can score – but it is still boring. If Tanglewood is a decent example of an RTJ course than I am not impressed.
Am I “out of bounds” here? Is the ability to “solve” a course a decent measuring stick for rating it?
*Possibly exaggerated
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Re: reference to the Durand-Eastman course in Rochester. The following provides an excellent history of the course:
http://www.durandeastmangolfclub.org/files/Historical_Info/course3.html
As Ron indicates, it was a terrific golf course up through the 1960s. The changes to the course had to do with creating a 9-hole front and 9-hole back that conforms to the division created by the natural terrain. Before, you played 10 holes on the "front", and crossed the road to play the 8-hole "back". Changes internal to each nine resulted in the butchering of the course, in my opinion. There remains some individual holes that capture your attention.
From my reading of the Durand history, sounds like RTJ's work there was a redesign.
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Years ago I had long discussion with Geoff Shackelford about RTJ. One of the things we talked about were “great tests of golf” vs “great golf courses”. I have played some (about 35) but not a lot of RTJ courses relative to the 400+ that he designed. I find them to mostly be good to great tests of golf but only few inspire me to where I would call them “great golf courses”. He wanted you to use all the clubs in your bag but that doesn’t always equate to a great golf course. I think Mauna Kea was ground breaking (literally) and Valderrama with its “bunkers in the sky” is unique. I enjoy Peachtree (one of those great tests of golf) and it has a bit of an Augusta National like feel playing in an arboretum. Valencia is another great test of golf (a shame about the highway). RTJ did a ton of golf courses (I consider him in many ways similar to Donald Ross from a businessman perspective) and I probably need to see more than I have of his designs to draw a stronger conclusion.
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Shady Oaks, Fort Worth
Nice routing with great variety of holes over hilly terrain. Several wonderful greens , often large, with nice interior contours.
Fornt nine is especially strong: fifth a superb long par three and long holes at six and number eight:
I'll second that emotion.
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Shady Oaks, Fort Worth
Nice routing with great variety of holes over hilly terrain. Several wonderful greens , often large, with nice interior contours.
Fornt nine is especially strong: fifth a superb long par three and long holes at six and number eight:
I'll second that emotion.
Nobody can overesimate the brilliance of Smokey Robinson. Anon....
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Might they go broke if they did underestimate William Robinson Jr.'s brilliance?
I'll second that emotion.
Nobody can overesimate the brilliance of Smokey Robinson. Anon....
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I have only played a handful RTJ courses, but London Hunt in Canada is pretty good start to finish. It's been renovated by Rees, but still pretty good start to finish. Same with Duke, which I like. I also like Cornell and Crag Burn.