Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture Discussion Group => Topic started by: Jon Cavalier on March 15, 2017, 07:20:03 PM
-
Link: http://www.friedegg.co/podcasts/tom-doak-part-i
A very enjoyable listen. Nice work, Andy. And thanks to Tom for taking the time.
-
I've got 7 hours in the car tomorrow so this should fit in nicely. Thank God it's all four lane so I'll be less likely to turn into oncoming traffic. I've been down this F'd Egg podcast route before.
-
If you want directions for an alternative scenic route, just let me know.
-
I've only listened to one of these so far and it was episode 6(?) featuring Jon. Really enjoyable.
-
"I host the illustrious architect Tom Doak, because of Tom's generosity with his time so we split the podcast into two parts to make it a little more digestible."
Bob Huntley is up in heaven trying to parse that one.
-
"I host the illustrious architect Tom Doak, because of Tom's generosity with his time so we split the podcast into two parts to make it a little more digestible."
Bob Huntley is up in heaven trying to parse that one.
Ha, this is why you shouldn't take up an occupation as a writer when you never learned how to properly build a sentence. Should have had it read over before publishing. Next time a PM would suffice as opposed to a public shaming.
Many thanks to Tom, he was a spectacular guest. I hope everyone enjoys it and John K, don't worry not a word about drones was uttered.
-
I listened to the first ~40 min or so yesterday. My first Fried Egg podcast.
Tom Doak reminds me of a history teacher I had in high school. He would stand at the front of the class with his hands in front of his belly and wouldn't move, he would just start talking. He would start talking about the revolutionary war, move onto the 1970's, then onto the history of tornado sirens, then somehow bring it back to the revolutionary war. It was fantastic and if you were paying attention you learned a lot.
It is always a pleasure to listen to Tom Doak talk about golf course architecture. His knowledge on the subject is second to no one and I always learn something new or think of something differently after listening to him.
I know many on here remember the awesome talk Tom gave at Lost Dunes for the first Midwest Mashie. Listening to Tom talk (ramble? :) ) beats any written interview he could give.
-
Tom Doak reminds me of a history teacher I had in high school. He would stand at the front of the class with his hands in front of his belly and wouldn't move, he would just start talking. He would start talking about the revolutionary war, move onto the 1970's, then onto the history of tornado sirens, then somehow bring it back to the revolutionary war. It was fantastic and if you were paying attention you learned a lot.
I know many on here remember the awesome talk Tom gave at Lost Dunes for the first Midwest Mashie. Listening to Tom talk (ramble? :) ) beats any written interview he could give.
Thank you ... I think ???
I normally ask interviewers to send me questions by email now, so I can be more precise in answering their questions. When I do a phone interview, it can often go an hour [or two!], but the problem is if they're writing for publication, they are only going to use two minutes of that long ramble, and I don't have any idea what two minutes they'll use. [Most likely though it will be the most controversial part, and it will be twisted to sound like I'm dissing Jack Nicklaus. But there has been more than one occasion where I spent an hour doing an interview, and the resultant article included no original quotes, only stuff they had gotten off a Google search of previous interviews.]
Even so, I have not learned to put out the cough-inducing p.r. quotes I read from other architects nowadays. Many of them sound like they've invented a new software app.
I've got no idea what I said at the Lost Dunes Midwest Mashie. I'm as unscripted as Mr. Dye in that regard.
-
Great podcast Tom and Andy. I will definitely listen to it again.
Fun to hear about how Tom got into the business. A great example of a terrific outcome due to persistence.
Looking forward to Part 2!
I think cga.com should start doing podcasts.
-
Tom Doak reminds me of a history teacher I had in high school. He would stand at the front of the class with his hands in front of his belly and wouldn't move, he would just start talking. He would start talking about the revolutionary war, move onto the 1970's, then onto the history of tornado sirens, then somehow bring it back to the revolutionary war. It was fantastic and if you were paying attention you learned a lot.
I know many on here remember the awesome talk Tom gave at Lost Dunes for the first Midwest Mashie. Listening to Tom talk (ramble? :) ) beats any written interview he could give.
Thank you ... I think ???
Even so, I have not learned to put out the cough-inducing p.r. quotes I read from other architects nowadays. Many of them sound like they've invented a new software app.
It's a huge compliment!
There is so much crap written today on golf course architecture, and there is such a need by architects to play P.R. spokesmen for their various developments that it is very refreshing to hear you actually discuss architecture and share original thoughts. I don't always agree with everything you say & write, but I always appreciate the willingness to share.
-
I waited to listen until my last hour so I wouldn't be tempted to post my thoughts while driving. Thanks for making a long drive interesting.
Some thoughts:
I would have enjoyed for you to have asked Tom to expand on his story of following Seve inside the ropes.
Tom had mentioned High Point as a prime example of his design philosophy. It might have been nice to hear why Tom thinks it failed.
Do you really believe when Tom talked about his desire to build a course for women that same course would be suited for juniors?
I thought Old Mac was also built by committee. I would have enjoyed exploring that dynamic.
On a formatting note, how about an introduction worthy of your guest. Tom mentioned he had built 35 courses and I could have benefited from a reminder. The best introductions in the podcast world, if not a bit over the top for comic relief, are by Gilbert Gottfried. Because Jamie Farr is eternally connected to the golfing world I have provided a link to his interview: http://www.gilbertpodcast.com/jamie-farr/
Can't wait till tomorrow for phase 2.
-
Jkava,
Thank you very much for the JF podcast it was most excellent. Makes me proud to be a Toledoan. Jamie never forgot his roots.
-
Andy & Tom,
I thoroughly enjoyed the interview. Thanks for putting it together.
The point Tom made about his own work giving Tour players opportunities to hit imaginative "feel" shots was compelling. Seve and Crenshaw type shots... And that the current roster of courses on Tour partially fails to demonstrate the full talents of the players due to the absence of those shots.
Maybe I should have appreciated Chambers more.
Looking forward to part 2.
-
Evan,
I had understood Tom to say that big wide treeless courses like Chambers are exactly the problem. That both he and many other modern architects had taken that model too far.
-
What courses did Tom Doak work for Pete Dye on?
I wonder what would have happened if Tom played RTJ Sr courses when he was in high school instead of golden era courses (Cypress Point and Pebble Beach).
What else stood out for me? (things I did not know before) I thought that Tom built more of the greens on his courses but it seems that a Doak green is really a green designed by his team.
I also liked that Tom builds holes where driver is not the best play. Yes, it upsets many golfers who want to hit driver 14 times a round. These are the same golfers I see on the range hitting a entire large bucket with their driver.
-
Glad everyone has enjoyed the podcast, here's the link to part 2, we talk a lot about Tom's travels in this one and end with a quick overrated/underrated segment. Many thanks again to Tom for being a great guest.
Two ways to listen website: http://www.friedegg.co/podcasts/tom-doak-part-2
iTunes: [size=78%]https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/episode-17-tom-doak-part-ii/id1131723994?i=1000382734662&mt=2 (https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/episode-17-tom-doak-part-ii/id1131723994?i=1000382734662&mt=2)[/size]
Thanks and I hope you all enjoy!
-
What courses did Tom Doak work for Pete Dye on?
I worked on the construction crews at Long Cove, Plum Creek, and Riverdale Dunes.
I did the routing for The Farms in CA [which was really Perry's job, not sure if Pete ever went there], and the plans for the Stadium Course at PGA West.
I also made trips to the TPC at Sawgrass and the TPC of Connecticut, but had nothing to do with either other than drawing up a suggestion or two of Pete's. And I supervised his renovation work at Piping Rock Club.
By far the two places I spent the most time with Pete were at Long Cove and while working on the plans for PGA West. At Long Cove Pete was there pretty much every morning all summer, and he spent a fair amount of time talking to me, for some reason. For PGA West, he sat me down and told me everything he wanted to incorporate into the golf course, told me to add some things I'd seen overseas, and let me draw it up -- fully understanding that it would probably all change as it was being built! And then we worked on refining it, every day for a couple of weeks, when I was in Lee Schmidt's office at Landmark.
Apart from that, my most important work was learning to run a bulldozer and shape greens at Riverdale Dunes. Once I got decent at that, I realized that I could build a course on my own someday, if I ever found anyone to hire me.
-
Listening to the podcast while watching the NCAA tournament and thoroughly enjoying both. TGIF!
-
So who, me excluded of course, should the egg ask next to join him in his oral skillet?
-
So who, me excluded of course, should the egg ask next to join him in his oral skillet?
Mike Young
-
With the recent passing of Bob Huntley I would love to hear a podcast with Pat Mucci before it's too late.
For a more national audience Jay Flemma would make an excellent guest. He is truly one of the pioneers in what TFE is trying to do. Jay can answer the eternal question of what came first...
-
Evan,
I had understood Tom to say that big wide treeless courses like Chambers are exactly the problem. That both he and many other modern architects had taken that model too far.
I believe that we are referring to two different segments in the interview. I interpreted the portion that you are referring to as him speaking more to the open treeless courses being too beneficial to long hitters. Which, to your point, Chambers fits the bill of wide, no trees, etc. In my opinion Chambers also fits the bill of another portion of the interview which was focused on requiring a player (ie. Michael Clayton spinning a ball back) to use a lot of imagination and creativity with less emphasis on sky golf.
Honestly, Chambers isn't important to why I thought his comment was so interesting. It was compelling mainly because I hadn't thought about it that way.
-
The point Tom made about his own work giving Tour players opportunities to hit imaginative "feel" shots was compelling. Seve and Crenshaw type shots... And that the current roster of courses on Tour partially fails to demonstrate the full talents of the players due to the absence of those shots.
Maybe I should have appreciated Chambers more.
Evan:
I guess Chambers Bay does have a bunch of those shots. Many were above my ability, because they were geared toward coming in high from a long way out, and using a backboard.
But, yes, I wish more courses prompted great players to show their full range of abilities. Part of that is also due to the equipment issues we talk about constantly here ... you do not have to hit so many of those "feel" shots if you're always hitting wedge approaches and the greens are pretty flat because of high Stimpmeter speeds.
Think about the greatest shots we've seen people hit in recent years. Bubba Watson's signature moment was hooking a short iron out of the trees on the 10th at Augusta. Tiger's is still the shot he hit out of the fairway bunker at Glen Abbey ... but when's the last time you watched a Tour player hit a 5-iron out of a fairway bunker? Either that, or the little chip off the backboard on the 16th at Augusta.
One of Seve's all time great shots [maybe best ever] was a 4-wood out of a fairway bunker on the 18th at PGA National in the Ryder Cup ... and when is the last time a Tour player attempted that? [I tried it once on my recent trip in Asia. It didn't work out as well for me, even with the image of Seve's shot clear in my head.]
The point is, these are all recovery shots from extreme positions. You don't see them much because
(a) the pros aren't in recovery mode all that often, and
(b) most architects don't have the guts to ask for a shot like that from the fairway, because it would be declared Unfair.
My take on golf is that pros are +6 handicaps, and there ought to be at least one or two shots on a course that help to separate them from the boring old scratch guy. And I'm not just talking about forced carries off the tee, or heroic diagonal shots over water. I'm talking about great golf shots.
-
Got through the second part today.
I thought it was good and pretty honest.
Andy's had some pretty good podcasts of late.
-
Tom
Making that shot Seve even more remarkable is he did it with that Toney Penna 3 wood and knowing that club well it was very strong and closer to a 2 wood.
The ironic thing about Seve's career is neither of the two most remarkable shots he hit were televised and both came on the 18th hole of big events where he was a huge part of the finish.
The other was the wedge across the wall in Switzerland in 1993
-
Mike,
I thought it was a 3 wood and had he not just topped the previous shot from the fairway about 30 yards to end up in that bunker or was that another time?
Jon
-
Jon
He hooked the drive into the left rough and gouged it out of a poor lie into the bunker - but right up close to the lip. Pretty much everyone who saw it calls it the best shot they have ever seen.
Not Seve though. In asked him once what he considered the best shot he ever hit. Without hesitation he said the chip from left of the 72nd green at Lytham in the 1988 Open.
'What about that 3 wood out of the bunker in the Ryder Cup?'
'That was for the team - but the chip was for me'
-
Recalling Seve's shot over the wall and trees in Switzerland, I reckon some of it might have been live on TV. Not shot by the usual cameraman behind him or in the trees with him and Billy Foster though.
I reckon I can recall watching it live on TV and a ball suddenly came over the trees landing short of the pond from where he then chipped-in. I reckon it was shown on Eurosport, in the early days of Eurosport broadcasting golf (ie just after the Screensport period), way before the Sky period.
Do I have any proof. No, just a hazy recollection....and it was Seve on the 72nd hole on a Sunday afternoon.....cameras would have been rolling, they always were when Seve was about let alone playing the 72nd hole and in contention. Barry Lane won the tournament however, by a shot from....Seve?
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=fCIBxS8wAbs
Atb
-
Recalling Seve's shot over the wall and trees in Switzerland, I reckon some of it might have been live on TV. Not shot by the usual cameraman behind him or in the trees with him and Billy Foster though.
I reckon I can recall watching it live on TV and a ball suddenly came over the trees landing short of the pond from where he then chipped-in. I reckon it was shown on Eurosport, in the early days of Eurosport broadcasting golf (ie just after the Screensport period), way before the Sky period.
Do I have any proof. No, just a hazy recollection....and it was Seve on the 72nd hole on a Sunday afternoon.....cameras would have been rolling, they always were when Seve was about let alone playing the 72nd hole and in contention. Barry Lane won the tournament however, by a shot from....Seve?
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=fCIBxS8wAbs (https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=fCIBxS8wAbs)
Atb
He chipped in for a birdie after that shot too, didn't he? I think it was on TV as well - I'm convinced I saw it but perhaps it was just the ball arriving at the green after having the whole scenario described.
What about that 3-wood that Seve hit under the trees off his knees?
-
[Even so, I have not learned to put out the cough-inducing p.r. quotes I read from other architects nowadays. Many of them sound like they've invented a new software app.
BAM....love it.... ;D ;D
-
He chipped in for a birdie after that shot too, didn't he? I think it was on TV as well - I'm convinced I saw it but perhaps it was just the ball arriving at the green after having the whole scenario described.
What about that 3-wood that Seve hit under the trees off his knees?
Ah yes, I remember that shot as well - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g5JfA1D1pkc - bit special :)
atb
-
I was there - stupidly sitting in a players tent 100 yards away and not watching. I'm sure if the shot over the wall had been on TV it would have turned up somewhere.
-
Tom,
Nice interview. You were talking about 9 hole courses and didn't mention the 9 holer at Morfontaine, The Vallière as one of the best. Curious your thoughts on this course and especially if you don't see it as one of the world's best 9 holers.
Thanks
Jon,
Thanks for posting.
-
Tom,
Nice interview. You were talking about 9 hole courses and didn't mention the 9 holer at Morfontaine, The Vallière as one of the best. Curious your thoughts on this course and especially if you don't see it as one of the world's best 9 holers.
Thanks
David:
I played the Valliere a couple of years ago, and thought it was sensational. I have never seen anything like it.
I guess I didn't think of it because I put it in a slightly different class than the standard 9-hole course ... it's a bit shorter and a lot wilder than the others I mentioned! Which is in no way meant to demean it. When I get to Volume 4 of The Confidential Guide, it will be difficult to decide whether to write about Morfontaine, or its little sister.