Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture Discussion Group => Topic started by: Mike_Young on March 02, 2017, 04:03:12 PM
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First, I don't like the USGA and think they are there for maybe 100 clubs and the rest are there to help subsidize their agenda. That's me. Most everyday golfers have been playing by a similar set of rules as they just announced anyway and most don't know the difference between the USGA and the PGA or the State golf organization. One of my pet peaves is the pompous ass, airy, rules officials one often encounters at State events. Now, I'm not talking about guys like Chris Cupit who actually knows the rules and has had a perfect score on the test a few times. I'm talking about the sate groups who come in and let the staff know they have arrived and here is what we expect and then proceed to prance around the premises. Some of you know what I mean. Well these new rules have to take the air out of some of their sails....the new rules schools will be interesting.
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WOW ........ makes me feel so good that I volunteer seven days a year to help, minimum. Spend a grand going to Rules school and constantly try to improve my skills to help those in local and state events.
Nice to see the effort a lot of us put into this is appreciated.
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Ed,
I go to rules school also....as I said earlier there are exceptions. But ask any golf professional or supt and you will hear more than one or two examples of what I am speaking of.... :)
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Mike -
I know you like to be "provocative" with your comments, but you have crossed the line here. The rules officials (who volunteer their time) and USGA staff I have encountered in no way fit the negative stereotypes you have described.
DT
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2019 will be a tough year, trying to forget the old rules and move on to the new ones. Definitely a year tom always have the rulebook at hand before bloviating. I remember going to a tournament admin and rules school the year they changed TIO relief. Since I had no prior experience with them, the new rules were fairly straightforward for me, but a sea change for experienced people.
But judging from discussions at the club today, the changes are too much for some, too little for others. For 90% of the people on course it will not move their needle one iota.
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Mike -
I know you like to be "provocative" with your comments, but you have crossed the line here. The rules officials (who volunteer their time) and USGA staff I have encountered in no way fit the negative stereotypes you have described.
DT
David
We agree as it pertains to the good ones but we disagree when it comes to the bad ones. Of course the good ones get the big stuff.
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2019 will be a tough year, trying to forget the old rules and move on to the new ones. Definitely a year tom always have the rulebook at hand before bloviating. I remember going to a tournament admin and rules school the year they changed TIO relief. Since I had no prior experience with them, the new rules were fairly straightforward for me, but a sea change for experienced people.
But judging from discussions at the club today, the changes are too much for some, too little for others. For 90% of the people on course it will not move their needle one iota.
Pete,
I think you are right.
Many smart people have thought about these changes for a long time, so I do not want to criticize too much before I read in detail, but ...
I think we all agree that rules getting simplified is a good thing, and we would all agree that anytime changes to the rules are made they generate confusion and a period of adaptation that takes some time. My thought is that if we are going to make wholesale changes to the Rules Book, then the end result should be really, really simple, so that the benefits outweigh the costs. I am not seeing this simplicity in the new set of rules. The 20 inches vs 80 inches is a prime example.
Mike,
" ask any golf professional or supt and you will hear more than one or two examples of what I am speaking of...."
If the pros you talk about had actually studied and understood the Rules of Golf and the Decisions, they would think differently about many rules officials.
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Mike,
Regarding your last thought on the 20" rule. That is much simpler than current, which stipulates club length(s). 20" is 20", period.
Using the length of a club creates all sorts of inequities and inequalities. Do you choose a club length to maximize or minimize. If you have a club in your hand for convenience rather than by choice, what happens when a drop and roll is really close.
Should Yao Ming or Tom Thumb be advantaged or disadvantaged.
I have just glanced, and not thought or overthought the changes (so I may be incorrect here), but relief +20" plus 20" roll keeps you within a normal driver length of the relief point, which is much closer than the nearly 4 club lengths currently allowed.
But, you are right that a more simple solution is at hand, eliminating dropping completely and go to placing the ball; however I am willng to bet that one ruling agency thinks that is a bridge too far.
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Marcos and David,
Mike has more experience in the Game of Golf then anyone on here. He is the voice of the People and can wade through the sea of BS posted on here.
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Mike,
" ask any golf professional or supt and you will hear more than one or two examples of what I am speaking of...."
If the pros you talk about had actually studied and understood the Rules of Golf and the Decisions, they would think differently about many rules officials.
MClutterbuck, Myself and many of the pros I speak of have studied the rules of golf and one actually was the head rules guy for Ryder Cup one year for PGA...and taught many rules classes for PGA and USGA. There are many pompous ass rules dudes out there. they don't get the big assignments but they show up and use their self annointed status around many smaller events...we've all seen it but some don't want to bring it up.
My question was how the rules would impact rules official..it was not for people to tell me how I'm misreading rules officials. I'm fine with people who have not encountered such but plenty of us have. If I recall you are somewhere in South America...come watch the clowns giving rulings in Costa Rica sometime...total idiots...and they cheat....
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So let's keep a running tally of things/groups you dislike...muni courses (because they are allegedly "unfair"), the ASGCA, the USGA, and now rules officials.
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Brian,
Good list but let me clarify that it is the bad rules officials taking advantage of the "name" that I dislike. I have friends who are very good rules officials. Same goes for many of the people in the ASGCA and USGA. But muni courses....yep....they need to go and saw where another is on the way out yesterday.
Take care
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There is no such thing as an unpayed volunteer. Everyone gets paid in some form of currency and sadly the exchange rate on douche chips gets stronger each year. Being the guy who defends the system usually gives you the biggest stack.
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God job Brian...thanks
I almost forgot...GolfNow.
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God job Brian...thanks
I almost forgot...GolfNow.
Thanks...you are dead on and I had forgotten that one....I'm proud of that list...
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I think we can all agree that if everyone who has agreed to volunteer for every golf tournament in 2018, pro and amateur, were to organize and insist on being paid a fair wage we could change the game. In a very, very good way.
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There are definitely too many pompous and self important golf rules lawyers out there and they fuel many of the negative stereotypes about golf. What I have always resented is the mistaken notion by some amateur golf officials that their role is to penalize players rather than help them. Anyone who has played a fair amount of state level events has experienced the situation where some guy has his round ruined over some ridiculous rules situation over a relief drop or a lie because of the overcomplicating rules.
I think the rules of golf have held back enjoyment of the game, not enhanced it. And I would be delighted to see a lessening of the value of someone who has memorized all of the decisions!
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"Mike has more experience in the Game of Golf then anyone on here. He is the voice of the People and can wade through the sea of BS posted on here."
Ben C. -
Having been a participant on this board for close to 20 years now, I am well aware of Mike Young's place in the world of golf. I am also aware of his biases and his tendency to exaggerate just a bit to make point. ;)
DT
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"Mike has more experience in the Game of Golf then anyone on here. He is the voice of the People and can wade through the sea of BS posted on here."
Ben C. -
Having been a participant on this board for close to 20 years now, I am well aware of Mike Young's place in the world of golf. I am also aware of his biases and his tendency to exaggerate just a bit to make point. ;)
DT
DT,
Those comments are from BC and not from me. I admit to those biases with no apologies but would like to know where I exaggerated. Your comments say that you have not encountered such people in the USGA and the rules officials. I have. Where are the exaggerations?
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Mike Y. -
Given your motto ("If you are completely agitated and confused, then my work here is done....") are you saying you don't attempt to be provocative by engaging in hyperbole from time to time?
You state you meet pompous rules officials "often." To me, "often" means an appreciable number of times. My dictionary defines "often" as "many," which is defined as large number.
Of the rules officials you have come across, what percentage has been have been pompous asses?
And by the way, I am not saying there are no rules officials who are pompous asses. I am just questioning whether you encounter them "often."
DT
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Mike Y. -
Given your motto ("If you are completely agitated and confused, then my work here is done....") are you saying you don't attempt to be provocative by engaging in hyperbole from time to time? Sure...I get bored and try to stir sh*t.. And so it may be phrased as to get a reaction but that doesn't mean it is exaggeration.
You state you meet pompous rules officials "often." To me, "often" means an appreciable number of times. My dictionary defines "often" as "many," which is defined as large number. I would be comfortable to say I see one or two atmost state events. Now they may be the same as the at other events. And the good rules officials also know it...they just tolerate it...but these guys often don't have the record or scores for the regional or higher events.
Of the rules officials you have come across, what percentage has been have been pompous asses? I would guess 20%...they just can't help it....it's sort of like some middle management guy retiring and becoming president of his Homeowner's Association...pure Billy Badass stuff...
DT
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Mike Y. -
Your experience in the world of golf is, at the very least, a thousand times greater than mine. (maybe ten thousand). In no way would I try to deny that.
I like to think that words have meaning, which is probably a mistake on chatboards like this. If you had said you "sometimes" meet a pompous ass rules official or you meet a "certain number" of them from time to time, I would not have objected. To me "often" implies a significant number and I felt that was unfair to the majority of rules officials who give so willingly of their time year after year.
DT
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Mike:
I am surprised that you brought up this thread considering:
WOW....thank you USGA. 99.5 percent of us are not affected and 99 percent of us don't play by the rules anyway.
BTW: I have to say that I totally agree with that statement.
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I should add that they failed to address the really tough issue that nearly every golfer faces, namely, the stroke and distance penalty. How do you walk back after you realize that your ball is lost or out of bounds, knowing that you will now slow down the entire course? Sort of destroys the whole concept of play it forward or speed up pace of play.
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Mike Y. -
Your experience in the world of golf is, at the very least, a thousand times greater than mine. (maybe ten thousand). In no way would I try to deny that.
I like to think that words have meaning, which is probably a mistake on chatboards like this. If you had said you "sometimes" meet a pompous ass rules official or you meet a "certain number" of them from time to time, I would not have objected. To me "often" implies a significant number and I felt that was unfair to the majority of rules officials who give so willingly of their time year after year.
DT
David,
You may be exaggerating my experience in golf vs. yours. I didn't make my statements in order to sound like some golf know it all and it was not me who even mentioned experience. But you make a good point in your second paragraph above. I should have used "sometime" or "certain number". But I'm still not at the point of praising any golf volunteer for giving their time willingly. It just doesn't seem the same as if they were giving those same hours to the food banks or Project Safes etc. around the country.
And back to my original topic....I am assuming the new rules will remove the burden of needing as many rules officials at an event as were needed before. So much room for argument of minute detail has been eliminated.
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8) ,
I haven't read any of the new stuff, but hope these guys are in the good category
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The only rules most amateurs need to know are:the difference between yellow, red, and white stakes/lines, when if its a free drop you get one club length, you gotta pay one stroke to get two, and if you're bending down, you better be tying your shoes.and there's golf and there's tournament golf
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I would be comfortable to say I see one or two atmost state events. Now they may be the same as the at other events.
I would be comfortable to say that I can pick out a jackass or two from almost any random sampling of a dozen or more people. Hell, if my only experience with golf course architects was reading this thread, I'd probably think jackassery was rampant among that profession too.
I hope some of us start playing golf soon and come up with some interesting stuff to talk about.
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I would be comfortable to say I see one or two atmost state events. Now they may be the same as the at other events.
I would be comfortable to say that I can pick out a jackass or two from almost any random sampling of a dozen or more people. Hell, if my only experience with golf course architects was reading this thread, I'd probably think jackassery was rampant among that profession too.
I hope some of us start playing golf soon and come up with some interesting stuff to talk about.
Jason,
The jackass is a direct descendant of golf architects...you didn't know that?
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Mike, would you care to give some specific examples of "pompous ass, airy" officials? As often as you seem to encounter them, you must have dozens of specific anecdotes of pompousness and airiness.
I'm a number of years your junior, but having played tournament golf in junior tournaments, high school, college and beyond in about a dozen different states, my experience tells me that the times when a rules official has been anything other than gracious, but matter-of-fact have almost always occurred when a player has been rude or terse with an official. In fact, I can't think of one interaction I've had with a rules official where the official started off salty.
There are lots of golfers with bad attitudes out there, and rules officials are easy, if unfair, targets for players who don't know how to vent their own self-inflicted frustrations correctly on the course. For that reason, it wouldn't surprise me if there was the sort of streak among rules officials that you perceive. And yet...
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Mike, would you care to give some specific examples of "pompous ass, airy" officials? As often as you seem to encounter them, you must have dozens of specific anecdotes of pompousness and airiness.
I'm a number of years your junior, but having played tournament golf in junior tournaments, high school, college and beyond in about a dozen different states, my experience tells me that the times when a rules official has been anything other than gracious, but matter-of-fact have almost always occurred when a player has been rude or terse with an official. In fact, I can't think of one interaction I've had with a rules official where the official started off salty.
There are lots of golfers with bad attitudes out there, and rules officials are easy, if unfair, targets for players who don't know how to vent their own self-inflicted frustrations correctly on the course. For that reason, it wouldn't surprise me if there was the sort of streak among rules officials that you perceive. And yet...
Let me put it this way Tim. On the DT post I have already agreed that I am saying it is only about 20% of the rules dudes. I will describe it from how other rules officials describe it to me. I have a few friends who have been doing rules for years and do most of the larger state tourneys and a few regional etc. They know who the characters are and they will sit back and say" watch this" . Some airy rules dude will come in to tell the head pro that basically he has arrived and this is what he needs and puts an air out there that is actually funny. Then the good guys will watch him for a couple of days as he comes up with various issues that were not issues in the first place. And then with most rulings they end up calling another guy in anyway. I've had them tell myself and others that we don't need to be in "that" golf car with another rules official because it is not proper and all sorts of BS...they are harmless but frustrated...hell we have one that actually plays with us and can't play at all but on every hole has a comment about something he was told at the " last meeting"...we totally abuse the guy because we like him and he is an idiot but it's fun to watch him put on his "rules suit" and become the reason the tourney exist....I hope that describes the guys I'm talking about...most of you know them...
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And back to my original topic....I am assuming the new rules will remove the burden of needing as many rules officials at an event as were needed before. So much room for argument of minute detail has been eliminated.
Just like computers created so much free time.
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Mike,
" ask any golf professional or supt and you will hear more than one or two examples of what I am speaking of...."
If the pros you talk about had actually studied and understood the Rules of Golf and the Decisions, they would think differently about many rules officials.
MClutterbuck, Myself and many of the pros I speak of have studied the rules of golf and one actually was the head rules guy for Ryder Cup one year for PGA...and taught many rules classes for PGA and USGA. There are many pompous ass rules dudes out there. they don't get the big assignments but they show up and use their self annointed status around many smaller events...we've all seen it but some don't want to bring it up.
My question was how the rules would impact rules official..it was not for people to tell me how I'm misreading rules officials. I'm fine with people who have not encountered such but plenty of us have. If I recall you are somewhere in South America...come watch the clowns giving rulings in Costa Rica sometime...total idiots...and they cheat....
Mike,
What I was stating is that often players do not like rules officials because they are weak understanding the rules and avoiding penalties. I could not comment on Costa Rica. My exposure to rules officials is motly in Argentina and some in the US, and while idiots exist across all occupations, I would not say Rules Officials are worse people than others, and often have to act in difficult situations and under a lot of pressure.
M
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Tough thread. I certainly had some bad experiences with "local" officials, but playing in so many tournaments the number was probably not too bad.
I was a huge fan of our officials on tour though. They did a great job, and were pretty damned patient for the most part when we, as players, were losing our minds.
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An ex tour player who is still involved in the golf business saw this thread and sent me a note saying he felt there would be blowback from many of the volunteer rules officials who were not players but had spent time studying rules and being involved in the golf community. The blowback would be from not being needed as much. That is the main point of the thread. I think he is dead on.....
Also as an example of what he called the "Barnie Fife" type rules dudes he said when he was in college he and Len Mattiace had a rules official call them over as soon as they reached the back of the 18th green at the end of their round and take their scorecards. He told them he had been watching them on two holes and he knew what they were doing in the fairway when they were standing next to each other talking. They said they asked" and what was that?". He told them he had been watching them thru binoculars and knew they were discussing which club to hit. They both laughed and told the guy the discussion was over. He went on to tell me that for the 20% I said were dudes, they often will not play games with a tour player if they ever are in that situation but will often mess with a college player etc...As Pat mentioned, he agreed tour rules dudes were top notch...