Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture Discussion Group => Topic started by: Rick Emerson on January 11, 2017, 11:17:19 PM
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I rarely post and I start topics even less. After having read Ben, Joe, and Ran's yearly thank you letter I think I do not post often because I don't want to interject unless I feel I have something worth talking about to bring through the table. While pondering how to plan a coming golf trip I think I have hit on something worth discussion.
I am going to Bandon Dunes to play in the Kings Putter in April for my once a year big golf trip. For another portion of my trip I will be in San Francisco visiting my best friend from college. I am really struggling with an important decision about my trip. I am struggling with How long to stay at Bandon vs. How long to stay in and around San Francisco. If I stay at Bandon only for the Kings Putter event I will see each course at Bandon once. I already have an invite to see and walk, but not necessarily play one of the architectural masterpieces of the Bay Area. I could also probably arrange to see but perhaps not play another. I was also considering a drive to Carmel and at least seeing the parts of Cypress, Pebble, etc. you can see from the Road and stopping along the way to play Pasatiempo as it is public. I am torn because I love golf Architecture, but I also love to play golf and do not get to play regularly in China. It is hard to pass up on staying at Bandon and playing as much as possible to only see and probably not play other great courses. Trying to figure out what to do has led me to three questions which I think would be good for discussion.
1. Which is better; to see as many great courses as possible but only walk them and/or play them once, or to spend more time at a few great courses and really get to know them by playing them multiple times on different days and conditions?
2. When one only has a week or so for a major golf trip is it better to stay put a place like Bandon with a high concentration of great courses and play nonstop or to sacrifice playing time to travel a bit and play less but see as many great courses as possible?
3. What does your decision on the first two questions say about your love of Golf Course Architecture?
4. (This question is optional) If you were me, what would you do? Keep in Mind that I am a healthy 37 years old and I often structure my golf trips to walk 36 or more holes every day. My favorite Golf trip ever was a trip to Melbourne and Tasmania by myself where I played 14 rounds in 7 days. This is also my first ever trip to the West Coast and I do not know when or if I will return.
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I would always prefer to play as much as possible.
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Easy answer. Play each Bandon course once, and then go to the Bay Area and see as much as you can.You are not going to get much benefit from one extra play.
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Sven and Brian,
You seem to have differing opinions. Why do you each feel the way that you do? What does wanting to play as much as possible vs. seeing as many courses as possible say about how the two of you appreciate golf architecture? Does the person who wants to see as many courses as possible even if he can't play have more of an interest in Golf Architecture than the person who wants to play more?
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I fell in love with the game by playing it. When I look at a course, I'm not just taking in the aesthetics but imagining how I'd be hitting shots. Happy to see great courses while watching pros playing but I'm always going to be thinking of myself in their shoes. I see a lot of posts about "walking" courses but if I've already made the trip to the course, my clubs will be in the trunk and I'm going to take them out if allowed. Members and pros "learn" courses but I'd rather play as many as possible.
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I can't think of a golf course in the Bay Area that I would skip playing somewhere else just to walk. I would skip playing an average golf course, but not a good golf course, to walk Pebble Beach or Cypress Point if you haven't been to those places before and don't think you'll be there again. You can also probably walk the dunes holes at Spyglass pretty easily, too.
I would take 20 or 30 minutes each to check out the clubhouses and immediately adjacent holes at SFGC, Cal Club, and Olympic Club given the opportunity.
Note that you can walk all of Pebble, unmolested, anytime you want. You can't see enough of Cypress Point from the road to make it worth more than a 5-minute detour.
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1. I think this really depends what motivates you. I am not one for "walking" courses without playing. I would prefer to play somewhere else. I am sure there is a quality tipping point where I'd rather walk Course A than play Course B but I haven't met it yet.
2. Depends how many great courses you have access to in one area. I could do a week on Long Island/Melbourne/London easy but would baulk at a week in Hutchinson, Kansas, even though I love Prairie Dunes! Two areas in a week isn't overkill.
3. For me, it means a love of golf architecture is born of loving to play golf so I will always defer to wanting to play as much golf as I can.
4. Maybe meet yourself half way and have a couple extra days in Brandon and then walk some stuff around SF/Monterey and play what you can (definitely play Pasa). In terms of not playing, I really enjoyed a morning I had breakfasting at Olympic with a friend who is a member and taking a bit of a tour. I enjoyed it immensely and felt I got more from it than I would have just walking the 18 holes. Not sure if that is an option for you at the courses you mentioned but may be worth exploring. Easy to pair it with playing a round elsewhere before or after and get the best of both worlds in one day.
Also San Fran is an awesome city and you owe yourself some sightseeing time there.
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1. Which is better; to see as many great courses as possible but only walk them and/or play them once, or to spend more time at a few great courses and really get to know them by playing them multiple times on different days and conditions?
I am not convinced there is a best way, but like Scott, I have little interest in skipping a good course to walk another course.
2. When one only has a week or so for a major golf trip is it better to stay put a place like Bandon with a high concentration of great courses and play nonstop or to sacrifice playing time to travel a bit and play less but see as many great courses as possible?
If I was in your shoes, I would limit the Bandon time in favour of more time with a good mate in San Francisco. If you get more golf in SF, great.
3. What does your decision on the first two questions say about your love of Golf Course Architecture?
I like architecure, but I like playing more. I am not bothered about playing great golf everyday if I have good mates and city to be seen.
Ciao
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If you are going somewhere on a golf trip that you're never likely to go to again then playing as much as you can fit in is understandable. However, there will most likely come a fatigue point where you're tired and burnt out so plan some smell the roses and chillout periods as well. And the less time behind the wheel of a car the better.
atb
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Sven and Brian,
You seem to have differing opinions. Why do you each feel the way that you do? What does wanting to play as much as possible vs. seeing as many courses as possible say about how the two of you appreciate golf architecture? Does the person who wants to see as many courses as possible even if he can't play have more of an interest in Golf Architecture than the person who wants to play more?
In my own case, I am more interested in playing golf than I am in appreciating golf architecture. If I can play a course that happens to be architecturally meaningful, then all the better. But, for example, if I must choose between playing more rounds of golf at home versus seeing more courses but actually playing fewer rounds of golf, I choose quantity of rounds. When I am on a golf course, I prefer to actually focus on my game.
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I'm a fan of playing, not walking.
That said, I see no reason why you can't do both.
You have an invite to walk or play a great in SF. Maybe more great golf will pop up you can play.
so at most youre looking at walking 1-2 courses and PERHAPS actually playing them.
You also can play Pasatiempo. You can certainly play Presidio and other SF publics .
if you get down to Monterrey you can play or walk Pebble, Spyglass, ride through/near a couple holes at CP.
Or play the back nine at Pacific Grove.
Staying in Bandon for a week+ might get stale outside of golf, but certainly great golf.
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I'm always the odd man out in these discussions. I'd rather walk a great course than play a good one. I walked Pebble twice - can't afford to play it, sorry - didn't play Pasatiempo. If I were in the area again, I'd play Pasa, but that isn't likely to happen anytime soon.
I'd always opt to play a great course multiple times over playing a bunch of courses once each. I do still fantasize over a trip to Scotland, and I'll be satisfied, no, thrilled, playing TOC, North Berwick and Dornoch and not seeing any others. If I make it to Cornwall, I'll play St. Enodoc multiple times before even looking into others. And if I ever make it down under, I plan to play Barnbougle and Melborne and little else, unless someone tells me St Andrews Beach is still alive... and I'll walk or play whatever Greg Ramsay is doing down there, too. Heck, I'd rather share a beer and dinner with Paul Daley than play any course in Australia.
Maybe all of this is because I'm not a great golfer and would just hope to shoot 95 on any good or great course. I'm hoping at least that much will change this year, as my wife has my little man playing the game, so that's a great solution to my never ending battle between my business and fatherhood...
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Sven and Brian,
You seem to have differing opinions. Why do you each feel the way that you do? What does wanting to play as much as possible vs. seeing as many courses as possible say about how the two of you appreciate golf architecture? Does the person who wants to see as many courses as possible even if he can't play have more of an interest in Golf Architecture than the person who wants to play more?
Rick:
This is your once a year golf trip. If you stay in Bandon for the whole week, you'll play great golf, but I don't think you'll get much extra on an architecture appreciation front from playing the courses only one extra time. And you'll be giving up any golf you'd actually get to play in San Francisco, plus seeing any additional courses, experiencing the city and seeing friends there.
If a return trip to San Francisco isn't an issue, and you know you'll make it there eventually, then you're probably not giving up much. But if this is the shot to get there and play a bit, take in some sites (golf or otherwise) and experience one of the best cities in the country, that sounds tough to give up.
Personally, I'd hit Bandon for the KP, take Grey Grieve up on any offered golf in Eugene, give Bandon Crossing a go if you have time up here, hightail it to San Fran, play golf there taking in any golf "sites" near where you're playing, and spend some time doing other things in San Francisco.
As to what this says about an interest in architecture, that's up to you. There are folks like Sean Arble where golf is secondary to the other features of travel. Then there are guys who travel the world only playing golf and not taking in much else. To each his own, but unless you are traveling all the time, it seems like the middle ground offers the best of both worlds during your limited time to get out and explore.
Sven
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I like to see and or play as many courses as I can, but that is just me.
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Do you take photos? If so, you can bring your camera on the walkabout if allowed. I've not played NGLA, but my days there at the Walker Cup were better than one single round, I suspect.
To know a course, you walk it every which way. On your walkabout, I might even ask if you could walk it forward, then drive it backward. Seeing it from both directions is fantastic.
You and I are kindred souls. I never know when I will get "there" again. I also would travel alone to Australia and play 14 rounds in 7 days. Fantastic move.
Bandon for the KP, then up to San Francisco. Pasatiempo is different from anything at Bandon; you'll love it. Just play slowly, so you don't miss those nuances. Sometimes we get moving and miss things.
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Thanks for so many good insights.
Sean, Thanks for reminding me that people are more important than golf.
Sven, Variety is the spice of life and it will be nice to experience a change of style.
Brian and others, thanks for helping me not feel guilty about wanting to play. These great places are meant to be played after all.
George, every group needs a dissenting opinion to keep us honest. I'm glad to hear your opinion.
Ronald, I'm glad I have a kindred spirit. Also, somehow you hit the nail right on the head with a problem I typically have. I'll walk a great course in less than 3 hours and shoot a good score and am completely focused on my golf. I'll shoot a good score and remember every shot, but, rarely will I have experienced the course. I also get so into the golf that I do not take many pictures. This summer that happened at 5 Farms, Kingsley, and The Loop. I Played fun rounds on a great golf course with amazing company. I took like 3 pictures at each course. I think that's why I mentioned playing the same course 2-4 times. I really enjoyed Barnbougle for this reason. I stayed two days and each day played one course multiple times. I played each round in around 2.5 hours played well and focused on the golf. Then the second and or third times around I tried to experience the course. I remembered the holes I thought were special from Round 1 and took pictures. I think it would be fun to do Bandon this way. Go in the summer when the days are long. Stay 4 days and each day play 2 or 3 times on the same course.
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8) You're 36 and you don't know when or if you'll return??????? Little too much drama in those premises, and you're traveling to/from China???
Play once at Bandon and you'll want to go back. Perhaps not need to ,but will want to.
Do SF and enjoy as weather permits, do Mt Tam, Twin Peaks, Union St., sour dough, the Wharf, Chinatown, the Park, the Cliff House, the golf, head down Rt1 to Santa Cruz and Pasatiempo and don't look back!
Haven't been to Pasa in 40 yrs, but very glad I saw it.......... ;D
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Just such a great question...and I think the answer depends on where you are in the golf architecture life.
If you are new to the study of architecture, you probably are best suited for seeing a good number of courses. Some great, some good, some crap. Then you can spend some time comparing and contrasting them to see what makes them so.
If you are an old salt and you get the chance to play a great one, play it a bunch. Study it with each play, try some different strategies, see new things.
Along these lines, I got the chance to play Royal County Down a few years back for the first time. I set up 3 rounds there and didn't take a caddy. I knew the first time I would make a TON of mistakes, but I wanted to learn the course for myself. The second time I "got" it and knew how to play it...by and large. The third time I really knew it...but it POURED down rain the entire time we played. I still loved it, but was glad I had those other two rounds under my belt.
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Cool question. I had an awesome trip to NY/Ct in 2015. Played Leatherstocking in Cooperstown (check it out, a hidden little gem), then Yale, Shinnecock, Friar's Head, Maidstone. Last day was going to be Betthpage Black, but thankfully it was 50 degrees and pouring-course was closed. I was limping around 4 months after tearing a calf muscle. The trip about killed me-and it was a logistical nightmare.
I am already a national member at Prairie Dunes and shoot to play 15 rounds a year there. The NY/Ct trip encouraged me to join Ballyneal a year ago. I can drive there in about 3:15 as opposed to twice that for Prairie Dunes. I get out there once a month for a long weekend on top of the trips to Kansas for PD.
So I would answer that I would rather spend more time at these two clubs then try to do a bunch of trips taking in 4 or 5 courses at a time. AND my plan and course combo is arguably cheaper and they both are fantastic experiences.
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I would rather (and do) choose to see as much as possible while I'm still young enough to be able to put up with extensive travel. There is a lot out there to take in if you love GCA. I think once that tires you can then fall back on joining one club to study intimately having seen enough to really know what you love most. Given in the US as far as I can see where you can settle down to play is largely dependent on your financial means, if golf is important enough (and your are living abroad anyway) then settle down in England, Scotland or Ireland and near North Berwick or St. Andrews. Get a links ticket (or become a North Berwick member ;-) and carry out your days studying some of the best courses on the planet for next to nothing where golf comes with no alterier motives except the passion to play.
Something like that might end up being my path...or I may quit altogether and learn how to work for a living.
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Mac with the greatest respect 3 rounds on a links course means you know the routing and where the bunkers are. A couple of seasons of constantly changing ground firmness plus wind speed and direction will allow you to really know how to play the course. Links courses can play totally differently week to week.
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I would rather see a great course than play a mediocre one.
So in Doak terms, rather see a course in the 8/9 region than play a 4/5.
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Tough call and a personal decision. Bandon is special IMO however and is the best golf resort on the planet. You will not want to leave the property once you are there. Old Mac and Pac Dunes are certainly worth a second play, as is Trails. I would skip a second round at BD, although others will disagree. The par 3 and putting course also deserve more than passing attention. I'd probably lean toward an extra day or 2 in Bandon, then hop down to SF, see your buddy and get the one big name in. I'd always rather play more and travel less, particularly with 3 (or 4) of the best courses in the world right outside your door. Given that you don't normally get to play much, why not binge on the best while you're finally there?
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I'd much rather walk, not that fussed about spoiling it with my golf.
Play Pebble or walk and watch and Cypress, I'd do the latter.
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8) You're 36 and you don't know when or if you'll return? ??? ??? Little too much drama in those premises, and you're traveling to/from China???
All I can say is that I've got a wife and two young boys. I only take one big golf trip a year and after this trip I would have to say that The UK becomes at the top of my list followed by New Zealand and Australia. Also it is so easy and cheap to travel in Asia that it's hard to justify a trip to the states other than to be with family. As the family is on the East Coast and in the Midwest it makes the west coast tough to get to.