Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture Discussion Group => Topic started by: James Brown on September 22, 2016, 10:29:33 PM
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Exempting
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I know the worst Bella Colina. run away.
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Winter Park
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Mission Inn - El Campeon
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The null set in Orlando.... ;D
Get in car, proceed directly to Streamsong.
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I've not played it, but, what is the consensus on CC of Orlando? Ross?
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Mission: Mars @ Epcot...
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Victoria Hills or Southern Dunes. Both a little bit away from central Orlando but worth the effort.
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Soon it will be TopGolf.
A little outside of Orlando, Deltona is pretty solid.
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How on God's green earth can a place like Orlando with a large, wealthy population, great weather, sandy soil hundreds of feet deep and winds that remind you of the Scottish coast, how could a place like that have so few good golf courses?
(I am exempting the new courses at Streamsong, which technically aren't in Orlando anyway.)
Did no one bother to drive an hour out of town to see Mountain Lake?
Bob
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Country Club of Orlando is solid and Ron Forse is doing a restoration soon that will make it much better I'm sure. It has great Ross bones.
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Pirates of the Carribean.
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Pirates of the Carribean.
Extra points for its water features.
Bob
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Mountain Lake. Hands down.
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How on God's green earth can a place like Orlando with a large, wealthy population, great weather, sandy soil hundreds of feet deep and winds that remind you of the Scottish coast, how could a place like that have so few good golf courses?
(I am exempting the new courses at Streamsong, which technically aren't in Orlando anyway.)
Did no one bother to drive an hour out of town to see Mountain Lake?
Bob
Resort golf run amok from 1970 to 2000 I suppose.
I will probably get cat calls for suggesting it, but I do like the New Course at Grand Cypress.
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(https://instagram.com/p/BJDvTFAD3_V/)
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I will also confess that I liked The New Course a lot.
Bob
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Country Club of Orlando is solid and Ron Forse is doing a restoration soon that will make it much better I'm sure. It has great Ross bones.
I think that CCO will be a really special place after Jim and Ron play in the dirt next summer.
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I will also confess that I liked The New Course a lot.
Bob
Since we are into Orlando guilty pleasures I'll admit enjoying the New Course and the International course at Champions Gate. I've also had a lot of fun at Interlachen which was renovated (not without some dissent) by Smyers a few years back. In all, you can have a fair amount of fun golfing in Orlando and hanging out in Winter Park at night.
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I agree that the New Course is worth a go if you don't have time to hump it to Mountain Lake or Streamsong.
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The New Course is solid day of golf.
[/size]Good, but not great are Grande Lakes & Southern Dunes
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[/size]I'd stay away from he Disney courses and was VERY disapointed with Champions Gate.
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I will also confess that I liked The New Course a lot.
Bob
In spite of it not having much in common with the Old Course?
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I agree that the New Course is worth a go if you don't have time to hump it to Mountain Lake or Streamsong.
Does Mountain Lake allow outside play?
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MetroWest is solid.
Southern Dunes just re-opened with some renovation overseen by Mr. Smyers. I believe the Biarritz pastiche 16th green has been remodeled.
I'm looking forward to Opening Day at Winter Park this Saturday.
Have we actually pegged the Ross attribution to Country Club of Orlando? My recollection is the connection is tenuous, at best.
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I will also confess that I liked The New Course a lot.
Bob
In spite of it not having much in common with the Old Course?
The New has little in common with TOC. But after playing 5 or 6 other courses in Orlando, it was a step up. So it has that going for it.
Bob
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No love yet for Lake Nona?! I like it.
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Have we actually pegged the Ross attribution to Country Club of Orlando? My recollection is the connection is tenuous, at best.
The Donald Ross Society claims Ross worked at CC of Orlando in 1918.
There are numerous reports from 1918 to 1920 of Bendelow's involvement with the addition of 9 holes (the original 9 opened around 1911 and was designed by D. K. Davidson).
Adding to the story, a Jan. 20, 1925 Orlando Evening Star article discussing a proposed Ross course in the Palermo subdivision off of Windermere Road quotes Ross saying he had only passed through Orlando prior to his recent visit.
The club maintains it has an 18 hole Donald Ross designed course. Not sure how they get to that conclusion.
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It's not in the best shape but Sugarloaf Mtn must be the most interesting design around Orlando.
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Thad Layton's work at Shingle Creek is well worth seeing. Lots of Golden Age-inspired bunkering and green contours.
Lake Nona is indeed very good - one of the baker's dozen Fazio courses on which Mike Strantz had significant influence.
Interlachen is enjoyable as well; Nice bold set of green complexes courtesy of Steve Smyers some years ago.
I liked Southern Dunes a lot; haven't seen it since the work was done but assume it's even improved a skosh.
Deltona is one of the best $30-40 golf courses you'll find.
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Really nothing very interesting in Orlando with the possible exception of the New Course and that only if you have played or have intimate knowledge of the Old Course St Andrews
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Winter Park 9 coupled with hanging out on Park Ave is the Orlando win-win.
Lake Nona might be the best of the bunch.
The renovated CCO is scheduled to open in December, so that could be a course worth adding to the list.
Deltona Club is my favorite “Orlando area” course, but some slow play, ugly housing, and sometimes spotty conditions prevent me from playing more often.
Victoria Hills is across the interstate from Deltona Club and worth checking out.
Mission Inn - El Campeon is another “Orlando area” Course that is a very difficult golden age course on very rolling sandy land. Make a birdie on the first hole and then hang on. The 17th hole is an absolute disaster and needs to be reworked.
Southern Dunes - “Orlando area”, great rolling land that Sayers worked to create a solid course, the housing is a major detriment.
Mountain Lake - Sure why not, best of the bunch...if you have access.
Streamsong & World Woods are the same distance from downtown Orlando...not really “Orlando area”, but great nonetheless...might as well throw in Pinecrest near Sebring if you are into counting SS & WW as “Orlando area”.
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It's not in the best shape but Sugarloaf Mtn must be the most interesting design around Orlando.
Not sure if you're being facetious but Sugarloaf Mtn. has sadly been closed for years.
My vote is still for MetroWest.
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Shingle Creek has recently had a pretty thorough rebuild at the hands of Thad Layton of Palmer Design. I thought it was really rather good, especially in the circumstances.
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Winter Park 9 coupled with hanging out on Park Ave is the Orlando win-win.
Lake Nona might be the best of the bunch.
The renovated CCO is scheduled to open in December, so that could be a course worth adding to the list.
Deltona Club is my favorite “Orlando area” course, but some slow play, ugly housing, and sometimes spotty conditions prevent me from playing more often.
Victoria Hills is across the interstate from Deltona Club and worth checking out.
Mission Inn - El Campeon is another “Orlando area” Course that is a very difficult golden age course on very rolling sandy land. Make a birdie on the first hole and then hang on. The 17th hole is an absolute disaster and needs to be reworked.
Southern Dunes - “Orlando area”, great rolling land that Sayers worked to create a solid course, the housing is a major detriment.
Mountain Lake - Sure why not, best of the bunch...if you have access.
Streamsong & World Woods are the same distance from downtown Orlando...not really “Orlando area”, but great nonetheless...might as well throw in Pinecrest near Sebring if you are into counting SS & WW as “Orlando area”.
Rees,
What? No love for Highlands Reserve!?!?
;D
Cheers,
F.
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IMO - Mountain Lake is a mere shadow of the designers other works and a major??
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IMO - Mountain Lake is a mere shadow of the designers other works and a major??
Which Raynor courses do you play in the winter that are better than Mountain Lake?
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Good point on the time of year - didn't know that was a parameter. Still I stand by my comments. Not thinking about it to hard I would say the Alps, Biarritz and Redan are poor examples of Raynor's work. Must have been part of the assignment I guess. The Eden was pretty good and a reasonable finish.
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Good point on the time of year - didn't know that was a parameter. Still I stand by my comments. Not thinking about it to hard I would say the Alps, Biarritz and Redan are poor examples of Raynor's work. Must have been part of the assignment I guess. The Eden was pretty good and a reasonable finish.
The Redan is pretty good and the Alps is a solid hole (doesn’t really matter what template label they assign the hole)
Weather isn’t the determinant factor, but nice winter weather is basically the major reason into why Florida golf exists in the first place.
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I too risk ridicule, but
With my 85+ (at the time) year old father and myself playing from back and very front tees, we both enjoyed very much the Celebration course (Jones & Jones) which is in the midst of the Orlando tourist zone. We also, from different tees, enjoyed Southern Dunes. Even with several (very) narrow condo corridors many of the holes were fun to play and the elevation changes. This is said after playing both courses ten times over that many years. [size=78%]The International Course (Norman) at Championsgate was also fun to play. [/size]
When I'm on vacation I'm interested in fun not in getting beat up on every hole. Selection of tees most important. BTW I'm not saying which of us played the forward tees.
Anthony
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Winter Park 9 coupled with hanging out on Park Ave is the Orlando win-win.
Lake Nona might be the best of the bunch.
The renovated CCO is scheduled to open in December, so that could be a course worth adding to the list.
Deltona Club is my favorite “Orlando area” course, but some slow play, ugly housing, and sometimes spotty conditions prevent me from playing more often.
Victoria Hills is across the interstate from Deltona Club and worth checking out.
Mission Inn - El Campeon is another “Orlando area” Course that is a very difficult golden age course on very rolling sandy land. Make a birdie on the first hole and then hang on. The 17th hole is an absolute disaster and needs to be reworked.
Southern Dunes - “Orlando area”, great rolling land that Sayers worked to create a solid course, the housing is a major detriment.
Mountain Lake - Sure why not, best of the bunch...if you have access.
Streamsong & World Woods are the same distance from downtown Orlando...not really “Orlando area”, but great nonetheless...might as well throw in Pinecrest near Sebring if you are into counting SS & WW as “Orlando area”.
I'd second Mission Inn El Campeon. I played the NCAA D3 championship there this past May, and it was a real treat. A good mix of tough holes and gettable ones. The par 3s are diverse and quite strong. It's the kind of course that, in a several day tournament, makes you itch to tee it up and have another go each morning. A few holes do err on the side of gimmicky. 7 and 17 come to mind...
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It's not in the best shape but Sugarloaf Mtn must be the most interesting design around Orlando.
Not sure if you're being facetious but Sugarloaf Mtn. has sadly been closed for years.
My vote is still for MetroWest.
I wonder if you're the only one who figured I wasn't serious. Of course it's been closed for years and was the most interesting design in Orlando.
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Good point on the time of year - didn't know that was a parameter. Still I stand by my comments. Not thinking about it to hard I would say the Alps, Biarritz and Redan are poor examples of Raynor's work. Must have been part of the assignment I guess. The Eden was pretty good and a reasonable finish.
The Redan is pretty good and the Alps is a solid hole (doesn’t really matter what template label they assign the hole)
Weather isn’t the determinant factor, but nice winter weather is basically the major reason into why Florida golf exists in the first place.
Agree with you, Rees. The 3rd may not fit the Alps template as well as some, but that doesn't make it a bad hole in itself. The Redan is a good hole and in the middle of a strong 3 hole stretch (10-12). There's also a number of other interesting holes that are particularly unique to Florida.
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Winter Park
Winter Park
Winter Park
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I enjoyed Winter Park, skipping Stream Song to play it earlier this year.
I guess you would call it closer to Tampa, but Old Memorial by Smyers is one of the better courses in Florida and worth the drive.
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I enjoyed Winter Park, skipping Stream Song to play it earlier this year.
I guess you would call it closer to Tampa, but Old Memorial by Smyers is one of the better courses in Florida and worth the drive.
One day it would be great to have a thread that asks only the architects here to list their top 5 otherwise un-ranked (ie not in Top 100) golf courses, specifically in terms of how well their colleagues did at making the most of a given site/project/circumstances. In other words, it would be really neat to read the professionals praising other professionals solely through the lens of their shared professional experience.
Peter
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Only seen it on TV, what do you all think of Bay Hill? On TV, a few of the holes seem to go counterclockwise around very circular ponds that seem un-natural? Did Arnie design it? I'm pretty sure he at least tweaked it a lot....
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One day it would be great to have a thread that asks only the architects here to list their top 5 otherwise un-ranked (ie not in Top 100) golf courses, specifically in terms of how well their colleagues did at making the most of a given site/project/circumstances. In other words, it would be really neat to read the professionals praising other professionals solely through the lens of their shared professional experience.
Peter
I'd like to see that myself. Architects describing WHY a golf course is good or not is one of the best things about this website.
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In the case of Winter Park, I was in Orlando with wife and her brother and his wife. I was the best golfer of the group, and none of the others were thrilled with the drive and price of Streamsong. I had heard about WP, had been part of a bidding team, and wanted to play.
Despite the old routing, with a funky dog leg or two, some walks, the course is really just what the doctor ordered, a nine hole course, enjoyable to play, with interesting design, and the overall quality of an 18 hole course. I feel like these would get more golfers into the game, and retain more seniors.
It also features some interesting greens, which most would think are too severe in spots for beginners, seniors, average golfers. While the golfers I asked did notice them, they didn't mind them, so I took that to mean I could perhaps design more contours into my projects meant to be playable public courses.
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Shingle Creek has recently had a pretty thorough rebuild at the hands of Thad Layton of Palmer Design. I thought it was really rather good, especially in the circumstances.
This would be interesting to see. There was absolutely nothing to recommend about the original, plastic version.
Has anyone seen Tranquilo, Fazio's re-interpretation of his old Osprey Ridge course at Disney?
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Orlando has an abundance of mediocre courses. The thing to remember is how they came about. Most of the golf in Orlando has been built since 1990, and much of it since 2000. The courses were built for resort and tourist play, and therefore reflect that type of architecture. Having lived in Orlando for six years, any time I felt a bit jealous of another city for having better architecture, I quickly remember that I have 12 months of shorts golf weather which is very affordable for much of the year. The not so great course a tourist pays $120 for in February, us locals are paying $35 in the summer.
The redo of Winter Park is great. The course is very much improved, and a lot of fun for a quick afternoon walk. I usually play hickory there.
I never played Osprey Ridge, but didn't like Tranquilo. I played both versions of Shingle Creek, and didn't really like either. I don't think the redo improved it, and the new holes seem very cramped and boring. I think they lost the best hole from the original routing.
Deltona is decent, but conditions can be absolutely abysmal at times. If you're driving north of town, you will have better luck at Victoria Hills.
MetroWest has fallen on hard times. They redid the greens a few years ago, and they are much improved and usually in great shape. They did a bunker project, and shrank most of them considerably. Many holes which featured large bunkers that created much of the strategy and challenge are now shadows of their former selves. The course has lost a great deal in my opinion.
Grand Lakes at the Ritz doesn't get much love here, but I think the best of the resorts south of town (Ritz, Tranquilo, Waldorf, Shingle Creek). The New Course at Grand Cypress can be a lot of fun as well.
The courses at Disney are all pretty similar, and very much 1970s Florida courses. They all seem like the same course to me, and also remind me of another 8-10 courses I've played in central Florida.
I've always enjoyed Southern Dunes. Usually in great shape, has some elevation changes and different than most everything else in town.
They just redid CC of Winter Haven. It's about 55 minutes from Orlando. I think it's 10 new holes and 8 in the old routing. Has an old feel to it, but is pretty much brand new.
For those who mention World Woods and Streamsong, while they are superior to anything in Orlando, they are no where near Orlando. It's sort of like telling someone to drive to Philadelphia when asking about New York City.