Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture Discussion Group => Topic started by: Michael Whitaker on May 31, 2016, 10:53:08 PM
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Bill McBride was sent the following drawings of the 1st on the Red Course and 18th on the Blue Course of The Loop by Tom Doak. Tom asked Bill to post on GCA... Bill asked me... so, here you go... enjoy!
(http://greenvillegolfingsociety.com/images/TheLoop1-18.jpg)
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Here is the same hole reversed...
(http://greenvillegolfingsociety.com/images/TheLoop18-1.jpg)
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Thank you Mike. Perhaps Mr. Doak will send on the remaining 34 holes in time.
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Thank you Mike. Perhaps Mr. Doak will send on the remaining 34 holes in time.
+1. Thank you, Mike. Thank you, Tom.
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Reversible course?! That's crazy talk.
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Norbert! Welcome back - where have you been?
Yes, a purposely designed and built from scratch reversible course, err, courses. It -- or they -- plays one way one day, the other the next.
You missed all the talk while you were away
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Is the course as easy as reading the playing description upsidedown? ;D
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Is the course as easy as reading the playing description upsidedown? ;D
Keep looking, Dick. You'll figure it out. :-\
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Do the courses play downhill in both directions?
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Michael:
Thanks for assisting with posting the diagram. It looks great on my iPhone! Maybe we should do yardage book apps.
I'm Playing golf with Ian Andrew in Montreal the next couple of days but will try to check back here. I posted the 1st hole of the Red course because that's the one Dan Herrmann posted pictures of on the other thread.
The cool thing about #1 is the the landing area is blind from the tee but you can see the green and just the top edge of the big bunker on the right. Then when you get out in the fairway it reveals itself. My friend from Australia who played with me on Monday really got a kick out of that.
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Michael:
Thanks for assisting with posting the diagram. It looks great on my iPhone! Maybe we should do yardage book apps.
I'm Playing golf with Ian Andrew in Montreal the next couple of days but will try to check back here. I posted the 1st hole of the Red course because that's the one Dan Herrmann posted pictures of on the other thread.
The cool thing about #1 is the the landing area is blind from the tee but you can see the green and just the top edge of the big bunker on the right. Then when you get out in the fairway it reveals itself. My friend from Australia who played with me on Monday really got a kick out of that.
Will there be a bell to ring as you move out of danger from that blind driving area? Love hearing a bell before you hit. 13 at Rye where Bob Jenkins almost killed Mayday Malone and me because nobody told him to wait for the bell!
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I think that what I saw of The Loop looks great. I think it's amazingly creative and will be a joy to play.
It's on a huge piece of land, and built on ancient sand dunes and plays through the Northern Michigan pine forest. But the holes I saw were very wide and I don't think the trees will be much of a factor.
'Tis very, very cool!
(http://i1351.photobucket.com/albums/p789/Dan_Herrmann/Loop1396_zpsde4jiveg.jpg)
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Awesome concept with the yardage book!
How many pages would contain two holes with the same hole #?
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Dan H. I assume that's #1 approach. It looks both tempting and strategic. . Any more?
Tom, I realize this is grow-in stage but will the rough behind the bunker we see on the left be growing tall or remain shaved to native edges? Btw, I dig the simple centerline bunker.
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Yeah - I posted additional photos here: http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,58998.125.html (http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,58998.125.html) (Scroll down and you'll see them on Page 6)
Best of all, Tom was good enough to indicate the details on the photos I took.
PS - That bunker on the right is HUGE!
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Awesome concept with the yardage book!
How many pages would contain two holes with the same hole #?
Undoubtedly I will get sledged for this, my personal opinion only, but would've been cooler to have zero instructions (beyond safety). Something about anyone "tells you how to play a hole."
And yeah yeah yadda yadda yadda..."If you don't want to be dictated to then don't buy / read a yardage book"...thanks in advance for that advice. ::)
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Here is a combo of Dan's photos with Tom's drawing. Help's to see the two together, I think.
(http://greenvillegolfingsociety.com/images/TheLoop1Combo.jpg)
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Uh oh ... iPad/iPhone Flip Screen Frustration Syndrom (iFSFS) Alert!
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And, the 18th on the Blue...
(http://greenvillegolfingsociety.com/images/TheLoop18Combo.jpg)
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That is super cool! Can't wait to get up there and check it out for myself.
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Does this 2 for 1 concept actually save any significant money for the property owner over having 2 separate courses. You still have 36 greens and multiple bunkers. Are some of the bunkers built for multi direction?
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Does this 2 for 1 concept actually save any significant money for the property owner over having 2 separate courses. You still have 36 greens and multiple bunkers. Are some of the bunkers built for multi direction?
It's only 18 greens. Literally one course that can be played both forward and backward. It can only be played as a certain direction each day so I doubt it sames money over a single course, but obviously saves money over two courses. Plus you'll have players staying longer to play both courses.
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Does this 2 for 1 concept actually save any significant money for the property owner over having 2 separate courses. You still have 36 greens and multiple bunkers. Are some of the bunkers built for multi direction?
Less area to water and fairways to mow.
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Does this 2 for 1 concept actually save any significant money for the property owner over having 2 separate courses. You still have 36 greens and multiple bunkers. Are some of the bunkers built for multi direction?
nothing significant...
just 1/2 ;D
I'm guessing it has less bunkers than the usual 18 hole course
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With this course and the other one....you essentially have 3 courses in one spot. If you had enough business to fill all 3, all the time, I don't think it gets u much.
But if the courses aren't full and now you have people staying an extra day to play both routings, I would think that would be a very nice value add, with no additional course to maintain.
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I think I'm most curious about seeing and putting on these greens - not only in terms of how they were designed and shaped to provide interest and challenge for two times the number of possible angles of approach, but also in terms of how well (or how badly, more like it) I'll be able to read greens that will have (I imagine) half the usual number of visual cues and contours.
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Does this 2 for 1 concept actually save any significant money for the property owner over having 2 separate courses. You still have 36 greens and multiple bunkers. Are some of the bunkers built for multi direction?
nothing significant...
just 1/2 ;D
I'm guessing it has less bunkers than the usual 18 hole course
Yes, its half the maintenance of two courses...because it is one course which is reversable....as the French say....voila!
Ciao
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I would very much like to play a course like this and while doing so (and indeed afterwards) ponder the various reversable puzzles it presents.
A couple of questions -
- are there some pin positions that are only really accessable when the course is played one-way?
- are any maintenance practices envisaged to be different to a 'conventional' course?
- how was the prevailing wind taken into consideration in the routing and lay-out?
Overall a fascinating idea. I hope it does well.
Atb
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A couple of questions -
- are there some pin positions that are only really accessable when the course is played one-way?
- are any maintenance practices envisaged to be different to a 'conventional' course?
- how was the prevailing wind taken into consideration in the routing and lay-out?
1. I tried very hard to build the greens so that there was no wasted space. I didn't want them to have to be way larger than normal for the concept to work, or to have half the green pinnable in one direction and the other half pinnable in the other. I think we've succeeded in this. The greens average around 6000 square feet or maybe 6500 [smaller than the last three courses I've built], and I think the hole locations work well enough that they can just use the standard "front, middle, back" setup rotation that many courses do ... the difference being that when you are alternating the direction of play every day, some of that is working backwards, but it works that way too.
2. The main difference in terms of maintenance is how much more fairway there is. For example in the diagram you can see the fairway disappearing off to one side of the page, because it connects right from #1 green to #2 fairway and from #1 tee back through #18 green and up that fairway. You could putt a ball from #1 tee all the way to #3 green before you had to get it airborne over a bit of native rough on the par-3 4th. That's an enormous amount of fairway [probably 40% more than a normal course] because the fairway comes all the way back to the tee instead of starting 150 yards out. But otherwise there are really no special maintenance practices, apart from keeping straight that you have to move the tees every day, sometimes from one side of the green to the other.
3. Same as usual ... we think about the prevailing wind when thinking of approach shots, but we know the wind could blow from other directions so the main thing is to give some leeway for wherever it might be blowing. That is particularly important on links courses, and despite the trees at the margins, this really does feel and play like a links in many respects.
For me, one of the best takeaways from the project is how much more the design is focused on golf shots rather than visuals. We made the decision early not to concentrate too much on the visuals, because what works better one way tends to work worse the other. That's not to say that it isn't interesting to look at, just that the focus range is narrower, and the coolest things only come into view when you get close to them, which is a feature of St. Andrews.
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I would very much like to play a course like this and while doing so (and indeed afterwards) ponder the various reversable puzzles it presents.
Overall a fascinating idea. I hope it does well.
Atb
Agreed. I can't think of a more intriguing couple of plays. Only time will tell if its a gimmick or all the problems have been solved.
I think on here we undervalue the 'tinkering' that has taken place on the great courses. Successful ideas tweaked, rough spots smoothed. Sometimes to the benefit of the course, sometimes not. However it would be a foolish man who tinkered with this based on their likes or dislikes on certain holes. With 36 new holes of golf I would anticipate there will be some adjustment needed and as Tom has previously pointed out, one routing will over time be preferred to the other. I would like to think any revisions will necessarily involve the original team!
Good luck with this one Tom I would really like to visit. I also hope this remains a one off. If it proves a commercial hit I dread to think what some of the 'template' courses might turn out like with less time and thought put into them.
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Keep in mind that the existing course at Forest Dunes is a wonderful course and provides a really neat contrast to The Loop.
A trip up there will not be a trip wasted!
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Thanks for the above insights Tom.
Atb
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As a kid we used to play 1,500 yard holes on slow week days, say from 5 tee to 9 green. Seems like an ideal course to do this!
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Where is this course?
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Forest Dunes Golf Club
6376 Forest Dunes Drive
Roscommon, MI 48653
USA
https://goo.gl/maps/wFnTmvnWE2s
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Keep in mind that the existing course at Forest Dunes is a wonderful course and provides a really neat contrast to The Loop.
A trip up there will not be a trip wasted!
Dan, does the Loop start in the sandy areas as the Weiskopf course does? If not I would think the terrain and vegetation for the Loop would be similar to the forest part of the original course. There were some back nine holes that were similar in feeling to the heathery courses around London.
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Bill - no it doesn't start with the sandy areas you see on Weiskophfs 16/17.
It's a very wide course (at least the parts I saw), and I don't think you get anywhere the same degree of narrowness you get at Weiskopf. Not that Weiskopf's is crazy narrow.
That said, I think it has brilliant ground movement. I'm guessing it takes a lot of work to make ground movement work on a wide layout that can play both ways, but I think you will be really happy with what you see in person.
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I visited Forest Dunes last weekend and picked up a map of the Loop in the shop. Perhaps someone with the requisite skill can download the pdf file and post it here.
https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B5vjkWAV3Q8iRjdtLXdCbG9xX2M
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(http://i1351.photobucket.com/albums/p789/Dan_Herrmann/TheLoopDoak_zpsmfqogz9e.jpg)
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Thanks Dan!
If you look at the SW corner of the map, you get a hint of how much fun, or mind-blowing, it's going to be to play this course. There are four greens in close proximity. Two of them are par 3s on the Red course, one on on the front 9 and one on the back 9, and two are par 4s, one each on the front and back. The par 3 SW corner Red greens host par 4s on the reverse course, and the par 4 Red greens host par 3s on the reverse course. It's an interesting puzzle like this throughout the courses.
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Norbert! Welcome back - where have you been?
Yes, a purposely designed and built from scratch reversible course, err, courses. It -- or they -- plays one way one day, the other the next.
You missed all the talk while you were away
Norbert has been building reversible golf holes for Dan Hixson at Silvies Valley Ranch.
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Norbert! Welcome back - where have you been?
Yes, a purposely designed and built from scratch reversible course, err, courses. It -- or they -- plays one way one day, the other the next.
You missed all the talk while you were away
Norbert has been building reversible golf holes for Dan Hixson at Silvies Valley Ranch.
I cannot wait to see this course too! Don't mean to thread jack, but any updates on timeline with Silvies Valley Ranch?
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Sorry for the thread Jack, but in answer to the previous post, http://silviesvalleyranch.com/golf.php is the lastest from their website. Being old and forgetful, I forget much of what Slag has shared with me. The main thing I remember was they had irrigation problems last year setting back their schedule.
I was also pleased to a certain extent to see that Mike Combs is working out well as the Super. even though they stole him from my club.
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Sorry for the thread Jack, but in answer to the previous post, http://silviesvalleyranch.com/golf.php (http://silviesvalleyranch.com/golf.php) is the lastest from their website. Being old and forgetful, I forget much of what Slag has shared with me. The main thing I remember was they had irrigation problems last year setting back their schedule.
I was also pleased to a certain extent to see that Mike Combs is working out well as the Super. even though they stole him from my club.
It seems to be a different concept than The Loop and it does not appear to be a fully reversible course. From the description I first thought it had 19 greens, which would probably be also considered reversible. But this course appears to have 27 greens? Still interesting, but looses some of the cost reductions.
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It seems to be a different concept than The Loop and it does not appear to be a fully reversible course. From the description I first thought it had 19 greens, which would probably be also considered reversible. But this course appears to have 27 greens? Still interesting, but looses some of the cost reductions.
Slightly different true as there are nine unique holes and nine shared holes in each direction of play.