Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture Discussion Group => Topic started by: Sean_A on April 12, 2016, 03:42:20 AM
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Augusta may be the single best example of a classic course being altered to suit a major, but without ripping out the character of the course. Its not as if loads of water has been added. Its not as if loads of sand has been added. Some 600+ yards have been added, but the course doesn't play terribly long and Augusta was always longish compared to other major venues. The biggest character change is with tree planting, but this has been done in specific areas and overall the course remains incredibly wide for a championship venue.
Many people lament the watering down of the design and to some degree I agree..when I look at the design from 10 handicap perspective. However, it strikes me that Augusta may be the only course on the planet which has a seriously high pro play rate to member/guest play rate. I was thinking it might be as high as 50/50 or even more! I always say that courses shouldn't be altered for the small amount of time pros turn up to play, but in the case of Augusta the pros do turn up to play and with the course closed a significant percentage of the year..... The pros play a significant percentage of rounds at Augusta in preperation and in playing The Masters. So, which master should the members serve...themselves or The Masters? I think the club has probably done about as good a job as can be hoped given that clubs which host majors ALWAYS change their courses.
What say you folks?
Does anybody know the numbers for pro V member play at Augusta?
Ciao
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Please, let an ANGC member get on here and elaborate on this? I want this for no other reason than to see people drop hints in an attempt to play the same golf course people usually rip to shreds around here. ;D
I also want to know if the rumor is true that anyone who asks a member to play is automatically to be told no.
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Sean,
Other than Masters week, it's members and their guests.Oct-May
There are only members tees and back tees-with a vast difference in between.
I know many of their senior members (the majority) struggle as their drives crash into upslopes or don't reach the downslopes so important to play well at ANGC.
Given that winter is their season, the damp cold weather and winter conditions of Augusta would make the back tees prohibitively long for low handicappers and club pros (or even Tour pros). The firm fast (and usually warm)conditions we see during April are not the norm in December, January, or February.
So the scratch player has to choose between 6300 yards or 7500-a choice many low handicappers are used to making.
I think these are referred to as high class problems. ;) ;D
As you say it's a purpose driven course (The Masters)so altering the course for pros makes perfect sense.
Given the ineptitude of the governing bodies, the added distance at ANGC makes sense and other than #7 has properly restored the "shot" values.This is of course doable because ANGC has the width to support the lengthening. The course was once known as being very long, but the Augusta many remember had already become somewhat obsolete (distancewise) by the mid 90's. Tiger pushed it over the edge and the Pro V1 sealed the deal. The large amount of "roars" everybody remembers were in part due to the minor lengthening not quite keeping up with the ball in the 90's.They did another 2 rounds of lengthening in the early 2000's. )2002 I believe) Then a few years of cold,bad weather made it seem like they had over corrected-most famously when Zach won laying up)
I do disagree with the ever increasing green speeds as they have been slowly taking the pitch out of the greens in pinnable areas(flatter tiers vs overall slope) to allow the ball to stop somewhere near the pin.This changes the difference between a severe uphill putt and a severe downhill putt, making judgement easier-not harder.(to say nothing of its detrimemntal effect on the world's wanna be policy makers for their clubs)
It also has the side effect of making the greens borderline unputtable in winds such as they had this weekend-which while strong for Augusta, weren't really that strong at all compared to how the wind blows on the links or even here on Long island.
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Sean,
Other than Masters week, it's members and their guests.
I thought that Masters invitees had privileges in the month leading up to the tournament.
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Sean,
Other than Masters week, it's members and their guests.
I thought that Masters invitees had privileges in the month leading up to the tournament.
Not a whole lot of takers though given their schedules
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Sean,
Other than Masters week, it's members and their guests.Oct-May
There are only members tees and back tees-with a vast difference in between.
I know many of their senior members (the majority) struggle as their drives crash into upslopes or don't reach the downslopes so important to play well at ANGC.
Given that winter is their season, the damp cold weather and winter conditions of Augusta would make the back tees prohibitively long for low handicappers and club pros (or even Tour pros). The firm fast (and usually warm)conditions we see during April are not the norm in December, January, or February.
So the scratch player has to choose between 6300 yards or 7500-a choice many low handicappers are used to making.
I think these are referred to as high class problems. ;) ;D
As you say it's a purpose driven course (The Masters)so altering the course for pros makes perfect sense.
Given the ineptitude of the governing bodies, the added distance at ANGC makes sense and other than #7 has properly restored the "shot" values.This is of course doable because ANGC has the width to support the lengthening. The course was once known as being very long, but the Augusta many remember had already become somewhat obsolete (distancewise) by the mid 90's. Tiger pushed it over the edge and the Pro V1 sealed the deal. The large amount of "roars" everybody remembers were in part due to the minor lengthening not quite keeping up with the ball in the 90's.They did another 2 rounds of lengthening in the early 2000's. )2002 I believe) Then a few years of cold,bad weather made it seem like they had over corrected-most famously when Zach won laying up)
I do disagree with the ever increasing green speeds as they have been slowly taking the pitch out of the greens in pinnable areas(flatter tiers vs overall slope) to allow the ball to stop somewhere near the pin.This changes the difference between a severe uphill putt and a severe downhill putt, making judgement easier-not harder.(to say nothing of its detrimemntal effect on the world's wanna be policy makers for their clubs)
It also has the side effect of making the greens borderline unputtable in winds such as they had this weekend-which while strong for Augusta, weren't really that strong at all compared to how the wind blows on the links or even here on Long island.
Jeff,
During the Masters the fairways are mown in the direction of the tees. Do you know if that is the case for the rest of the year or would that be unnecessary punishment for the members?
As an aside, does anyone have a rough idea of what the average age of ANGC membership is?
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As has been said, October-May the course is mostly used by 1 member and his 3 guests, and it gets quite a lot of play. I would guess a ratio would be closer to 95% amateur - 5% pro. And the course remains a fantastic course for member play, very wide from the member tees, strategic and overall a fairly easy course tee to green, and conditions I have seen allow to shoot for the pins, even sucker pins such as short right on 16. Members have a considerable advantage over guests on the greens. They are extremely tough first time around to putt, but a lot of fun. I would say ANGC is a vey fair test for a 9-12 handicap, that can expect to birdie holes and also 3-putt a lot.
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Okay, I am guessing that 400 rounds is played each year in coneection with The Masters. If play is 95% member based, tht means roughly 8000 rounds are played per at Augusta. Given the course is closed for at least 1/3 of the year; that means Augusta is doing 1000 rounds per open month. I was under the impression the number of rounds was much less than that.
Ciao
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Okay, I am guessing that 400 rounds is played each year in coneection with The Masters. If play is 95% member based, tht means roughly 8000 rounds are played per at Augusta. Given the course is closed for at least 1/3 of the year; that means Augusta is doing 1000 rounds per open month. I was under the impression the number of rounds was much less than that.
Ciao
Sean, I believe it is a lot more than 1000 per month. That would be 33 per day. My guess is that it is a lot more than that, but it is based on just a few data points. Also, that is not counting that a lot of folks play 27 or 36 per day.
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Okay, I am guessing that 400 rounds is played each year in coneection with The Masters. If play is 95% member based, tht means roughly 8000 rounds are played per at Augusta. Given the course is closed for at least 1/3 of the year; that means Augusta is doing 1000 rounds per open month. I was under the impression the number of rounds was much less than that.
Ciao
I'd agree with Marcos that it's more than that. The couple of times I've been there, it seemed relatively busy with people coming and going ... I'd guess they had 60 or 80 players the last time I was there, which was in January, a few years ago. If you knew how many beds they had on property, capacity would be pretty easy to figure out, although they do have a lot of turnover on any given day [one group playing before they leave, another arriving and playing].
Many years ago when I was running the GOLF Magazine panel, when we sent plaques to all the clubs I sent along a quick questionnaire asking how many members they had, number of rounds were played there each year, green fees, initiation fees, etc. Only about half of the clubs answered, but there was some interesting data. I wonder if it's still in my office files somewhere? Somebody should remind me in a couple of days when I get back home. Of course, these were 1987 or 1989 numbers, but the range of answers was still fascinating.
Michael G: They can only mow the fairways as they do during The Masters because they have about 50 superintendents helping out. I don't think they go to that extreme on the normal weekday, and as Jeff says, no one needs the golf course to play any longer during the winter months.
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Yes Tom, 60-80 is more like the number I saw on the course in November-December and I believe I heard this is fairly typical. It is a lot more around the important member events.
Also, I would assume fairway HOC is longer during regular months, so no need to cut against play to make it longer.
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Thanks Tom. I guessed that would be the case. No need to dent Warren Buffet's pride on his tee shots.
On a somewhat related point. This is an article written by Ewan Murray, the golf correspondent of the Guardian newspaper on what it's like to play the course the Monday after the Masters as a result of winning the media ballot.
http://www.theguardian.com/sport/2016/apr/03/eerie-augusta-winning-lottery-masters
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I'm curious about something. Jim Lucius, our longtime DoG at Olympic played Augusta more than 25 times over the years. His contention was that from the Member Tees, it is "essentially a par-68 golf course."
Supposedly, although the senior members and shorter hitting guests struggle with the upslopes and taking advantage of the downward tumble of some fairways, a reasonably good single-digit handicapper can reach all the par-5s in two - and with an experienced caddie can negotiate the slower green speeds without too much trouble.
Truth be told, I've little incentive or interest in playing the golf course beyond just saying I've done it. One of these days I would like to attend a Masters practice round to see the slopes and especially study the putting surface contours - but teeing it up is not really on my bucket list.
I count nearly 25 friends who've played Augusta and of the 15 or so whose opinions I respect, NOT ONE has ever told me it is their favorite golf course. Not the experience, the golf course itself.
It is fashionable around here to diss on Augusta National - which may or may not be valid - but while watching the final round thrills and spills is incredibly entertaining, the only holes that wiggle my giggle are #10-14, 16-17. The rest looks pretty uninspired aside from the wildly contoured greens.
Never been there, so I'm talking out my ass, but if I can choose where Scotty beams on a sunny June afternoon, Augusta National is not even on the first page.
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Never been there, so I'm talking out my ass, but if I can choose where Scotty beams on a sunny June afternoon, Augusta National is not even on the first page.
Gib,
I doubt any of Scotty's beams would be pointed at ANGC in June....the course would be closed and Lawd knows how many greens and turf otherwise would be tore up for "annual maintenance".
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Okay, I am guessing that 400 rounds is played each year in coneection with The Masters. If play is 95% member based, tht means roughly 8000 rounds are played per at Augusta. Given the course is closed for at least 1/3 of the year; that means Augusta is doing 1000 rounds per open month. I was under the impression the number of rounds was much less than that.
Ciao
My surreptitious entry to the course on a beautiful day January of 1998 was an eye-opener. It was around 11:30 on a Sunday morning, down in the arrowhead of Amen Corner, and I had to stay concealed for nearly an hour until the last of several groups came through that part of the property...I counted 10 groups and 34 golfers in that 50 minutes. I don't know if that was it for the day or more would be coming, but I have always been amazed how busy it was...
cheers
vk
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I count nearly 25 friends who've played Augusta and of the 15 or so whose opinions I respect, NOT ONE has ever told me it is their favorite golf course.
Gib, it has been far too long since I enjoyed your company, but I must say that it would come as no surprise to know that you have at least 25 friends who are total nutjobs.
You need to go to Augusta. Please go. To my knowledge we haven't had anyone enjoy a scorecard unwich since Shivas' legendary post round snack at National Golf Links of America. I'm confident enough in the place to make that wager.
Your DoG is spot on based upon this story which I've told here before: During the Ike era a prominent Nashville businessman is invited to play Augusta and is quite pleased with his 44 on the front nine. This on a day when the tees are up, greens are soft and slow and hole locations are generous. On the 10th tee he turns to his caddy - rumored to be Stovepipe, and asks what he considers to be a rhetorical question: "Tell me Stovepipe, how does my game compare with the President's?" The reply: "Very similar, sir - he ain't worth a s@#t neither."
Go Gib. Go.
Respectfully,
Bogey
Also, in response to another question I would think the average age of the membership is north of 70 and perhaps well north.
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I'm curious about something. Jim Lucius, our longtime DoG at Olympic played Augusta more than 25 times over the years. His contention was that from the Member Tees, it is "essentially a par-68 golf course."
Supposedly, although the senior members and shorter hitting guests struggle with the upslopes and taking advantage of the downward tumble of some fairways, a reasonably good single-digit handicapper can reach all the par-5s in two - and with an experienced caddie can negotiate the slower green speeds without too much trouble.
Truth be told, I've little incentive or interest in playing the golf course beyond just saying I've done it. One of these days I would like to attend a Masters practice round to see the slopes and especially study the putting surface contours - but teeing it up is not really on my bucket list.
I count nearly 25 friends who've played Augusta and of the 15 or so whose opinions I respect, NOT ONE has ever told me it is their favorite golf course. Not the experience, the golf course itself.
It is fashionable around here to diss on Augusta National - which may or may not be valid - but while watching the final round thrills and spills is incredibly entertaining, the only holes that wiggle my giggle are #10-14, 16-17. The rest looks pretty uninspired aside from the wildly contoured greens.
Never been there, so I'm talking out my ass, but if I can choose where Scotty beams on a sunny June afternoon, Augusta National is not even on the first page.
I've studied Augusta National since I was a child - have read nearly every book about it and probably watched every Masters since the mid-70's. This year I stepped on the property for the first time, attending Tuesday's practice round. I wasn't totally prepared for all that I saw. I hope you get to visit in person soon.
The feeling of the place when you walk onto the property is majestic. Unlike any golf course or tournament I've attended before. It IS a hilly property and the mid-and-long range territorial views over the property from the clubhouse area are spectacular and were a surprise. I walked the course from the 1st tee through the 18th hole and the way the property moves over and around the site is brilliant. I could see why the 10th was the original 1st hole - it's a spectacularly downhill hole. From a distance, each hole looks less than spectacular - but when you see the property and greens up close it's genius is apparent.
It may not be set in a spectacular ocean or mountain environment like some other places, but after watching the golf and seeing the course it's hard not to crave the opportunity to play it. The overall setting of the club, cottages, par-3 course, and aura of the place is hard to describe and I'd love to play it someday for that, as much as the golf course.
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I do disagree with the ever increasing green speeds as they have been slowly taking the pitch out of the greens in pinnable areas(flatter tiers vs overall slope) to allow the ball to stop somewhere near the pin.This changes the difference between a severe uphill putt and a severe downhill putt, making judgement easier-not harder.(to say nothing of its detrimemntal effect on the world's wanna be policy makers for their clubs)
It also has the side effect of making the greens borderline unputtable in winds such as they had this weekend-which while strong for Augusta, weren't really that strong at all compared to how the wind blows on the links or even here on Long island.
Beautiful. I wish those in charge had your wisdom.
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I was thinking over the weekend that Augusta might truly be the ideal course, suitable for play by lesser golfers and pros alike.
Not sure I'd accept the word of anyone who says otherwise...
:)
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Sean 98 players playing 2 rounds and 2 practise rounds gives you your 400 rounds. 50 or so make the cut play another 2 rounds. With players arriving early, amateurs visiting in the Autumn, press rounds, tournament worker day(s) I'd expect nearer a 1000 rounds are directly
connected to the Masters.
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Never been there, so I'm talking out my ass,
Probably just should've left it at that ;) ;D
Not saying I disagree with your respected friends or your DOG...
but you should know that if Scotty beams you there in JUNE :o ;D ::) , you might be the first person ever to arrive at ANGC to play and be disappointed.
What always amazes me the MOST though is how many people see it for the first time and are surprised by the openness, width, scale, elevation change undulation-and by how awed they are.
You'd think those that had never been there would at least give it the benefit of the doubt, given that it consistently exceeds its high expectations.
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I'm curious about something. Jim Lucius, our longtime DoG at Olympic played Augusta more than 25 times over the years. His contention was that from the Member Tees, it is "essentially a par-68 golf course."
Supposedly, although the senior members and shorter hitting guests struggle with the upslopes and taking advantage of the downward tumble of some fairways, a reasonably good single-digit handicapper can reach all the par-5s in two - and with an experienced caddie can negotiate the slower green speeds without too much trouble.
Truth be told, I've little incentive or interest in playing the golf course beyond just saying I've done it. One of these days I would like to attend a Masters practice round to see the slopes and especially study the putting surface contours - but teeing it up is not really on my bucket list.
I count nearly 25 friends who've played Augusta and of the 15 or so whose opinions I respect, NOT ONE has ever told me it is their favorite golf course. Not the experience, the golf course itself.
It is fashionable around here to diss on Augusta National - which may or may not be valid - but while watching the final round thrills and spills is incredibly entertaining, the only holes that wiggle my giggle are #10-14, 16-17. The rest looks pretty uninspired aside from the wildly contoured greens.
Never been there, so I'm talking out my ass, but if I can choose where Scotty beams on a sunny June afternoon, Augusta National is not even on the first page.
Gib,
Any student of golf architecture should see Augusta, but like your friends, I wouldn't call it my favorite. Would be pressed to make my top three Mackenzie course.
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I was under the same impression that Sean was. For some reason I thought that members were politely discouraged from playing the course too often -- and that those who seem like they would want/need to play it too often aren't likely to be offered memberships. But it appears that, like Rick who went to Casablanca for the waters, I was misinformed. Btw, put me down as someone who would highly prize a visit; if I had a bucket list, which I don't, Augusta would be on it. I know it is an inland course, and it has most of the markings of an inland course, but for the life of me I can't think of another inland course in America that looks (and looks to play) anything like it.
Peter
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I've studied Augusta National since I was a child - have read nearly every book about it and probably watched every Masters since the mid-70's. This year I stepped on the property for the first time, attending Tuesday's practice round. I wasn't totally prepared for all that I saw. I hope you get to visit in person soon.
Steve, I wonder if you crossed paths with Kevin Lynch and his chums, who also debuted on Tuesday this year:
http://buffalogolfer.com/wordpress/scrambler-masters-spectator-experience/
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I used to be vaguely in Gib’s camp. I once had the chance to play ANGC, but back in the day before I started enjoying checking in here and traveling a bit on my own. In my mind at that time, I put it in the category of Pebble: no golf course is worth that cost, at least for a hack like me. A few years ago I wandered down to Pebble and walked the course during a tournament (and a big winter storm) and then did a drive-by tour of all the courses on the peninsula. My tune changed. Now I sort of fall into the camp of those that say make the most of your opportunities to experience great golf and have some memories. I don’t really care nor remember what it cost to have a few of those memories.
Nice post by Joe on his thread. He chose wisely.
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Some of the comments here shock me. How can one dislike a place they have never been to nor ever want to go there? And if given the opportunity to play there, who would be crazy enuf to turn that down??
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Love to tell the story, but I can't. It wouldn't be fair to the member or the club. I'm not a trophy hunter. Just a golfer with a bit of an architecture hobby. As I implied, I probably would now, although I'm still not sure of my motivation now that I'm aware of what I passed up. I'm an moron, perhaps, but I've done worse. I once passed on an invitation to see Citizen Kane with William Randolph Hearst III. Farm boy ignorance that I'm still trying to mitigate.
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Okay, I am guessing that 400 rounds is played each year in coneection with The Masters. If play is 95% member based, tht means roughly 8000 rounds are played per at Augusta. Given the course is closed for at least 1/3 of the year; that means Augusta is doing 1000 rounds per open month. I was under the impression the number of rounds was much less than that.
Ciao
Sean, I believe it is a lot more than 1000 per month. That would be 33 per day. My guess is that it is a lot more than that, but it is based on just a few data points. Also, that is not counting that a lot of folks play 27 or 36 per day.
Thats two more data points than I have! Though I am very surprised because like Pietro said I always thought Augusta had few members, many lived away and weren't encouraged to visit. So the numbers, if Chappers is right (and I admit thinking 400 Masters connected rounds was a very conservative number) with 1000, that means Augusta does 20,000 rounds in 7ish months by your percentage. Does that seem about right (seems very high to me)? Though now we are getting into muni numbers :D
While I can understand the hesitancy of some people to fully embrace Augusta, I don't either, but it is the ONE course I would do all I can to play if given the opportunity. Augusta is more than a course...its The Masters. For me, the experience of a well known place is just as important as the golf. Perhaps the full R&A treatment at TOC is up there, but certainly nothing else in the world can touch Augusta.
Ciao
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Some of the comments here shock me. How can one dislike a place they have never been to nor ever want to go there? And if given the opportunity to play there, who would be crazy enuf to turn that down??
If bagging on Augusta is cool, consider GCA Miles Davis.
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Some of the comments here shock me. How can one dislike a place they have never been to nor ever want to go there? And if given the opportunity to play there, who would be crazy enuf to turn that down??
If bagging on Augusta is cool, consider GCA Miles Davis.
I wish we had a Like button for this post, but not as much as I wished we had one when you dropped a Peter Sagan reference a day or two ago...
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Some of the comments here shock me. How can one dislike a place they have never been to nor ever want to go there? And if given the opportunity to play there, who would be crazy enuf to turn that down??
If bagging on Augusta is cool, consider GCA Miles Davis.
I recently played golf with two 50 something Brits who had never heard of Miles Davis or John Coltrane :-\
Ciao
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Obviously Augusta has a national membership, but is there any Augusta area contingent? If so, is the local area more heavily represented in the older membership as opposed to the "younger" membership?
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Some of the comments here shock me. How can one dislike a place they have never been to nor ever want to go there? And if given the opportunity to play there, who would be crazy enuf to turn that down??
If bagging on Augusta is cool, consider GCA Miles Davis.
I recently played golf with two 50 something Brits who had never heard of Miles Davis or John Coltrane :-\
Ciao
In some circles, that makes them even cooler.
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I recently played golf with two 50 something Brits who had never heard of Miles Davis or John Coltrane :-\
Ciao
Sean
Perfectly understandable if there not into football that much. They probably wouldn't know the names of many players beyond there local team.
Niall
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Cary,
With the exception of Dave McCollum, whom I genuinely believe, I suspect the rest is the reverse psychology GCA trick....
Bash, criticize, and claim you'd never go to course X....in hopes someone will be determined to change your mind and give you an invite to go.
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Some of the comments here shock me. How can one dislike a place they have never been to nor ever want to go there? And if given the opportunity to play there, who would be crazy enuf to turn that down??
If bagging on Augusta is cool, consider GCA Miles Davis.
I recently played golf with two 50 something Brits who had never heard of Miles Davis or John Coltrane :-\
Ciao
In some circles, that makes them even cooler.
The circle of philistines? That sounds harsh, but jeepers. Its one thing to not know any Davis/Coltrane music, but quite another to not know who they were.
Ciao
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I was thinking over the weekend that Augusta might truly be the ideal course, suitable for play by lesser golfers and pros alike.
Not sure I'd accept the word of anyone who says otherwise...
:)
Can´t agree with you more.
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I was under the same impression that Sean was. For some reason I thought that members were politely discouraged from playing the course too often -- and that those who seem like they would want/need to play it too often aren't likely to be offered memberships. But it appears that, like Rick who went to Casablanca for the waters, I was misinformed. Btw, put me down as someone who would highly prize a visit; if I had a bucket list, which I don't, Augusta would be on it. I know it is an inland course, and it has most of the markings of an inland course, but for the life of me I can't think of another inland course in America that looks (and looks to play) anything like it.
Peter
I do not think you were misinformed with respect to how often members are encouraged to play. It is still busy, as most members that come, bring 3 guests. I believe they are even allowed to bring 7 guests for a certain week or 2 per year.
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I'm curious about something. Jim Lucius, our longtime DoG at Olympic played Augusta more than 25 times over the years. His contention was that from the Member Tees, it is "essentially a par-68 golf course."
Supposedly, although the senior members and shorter hitting guests struggle with the upslopes and taking advantage of the downward tumble of some fairways, a reasonably good single-digit handicapper can reach all the par-5s in two - and with an experienced caddie can negotiate the slower green speeds without too much trouble.
Truth be told, I've little incentive or interest in playing the golf course beyond just saying I've done it. One of these days I would like to attend a Masters practice round to see the slopes and especially study the putting surface contours - but teeing it up is not really on my bucket list.
I count nearly 25 friends who've played Augusta and of the 15 or so whose opinions I respect, NOT ONE has ever told me it is their favorite golf course. Not the experience, the golf course itself.
It is fashionable around here to diss on Augusta National - which may or may not be valid - but while watching the final round thrills and spills is incredibly entertaining, the only holes that wiggle my giggle are #10-14, 16-17. The rest looks pretty uninspired aside from the wildly contoured greens.
Never been there, so I'm talking out my ass, but if I can choose where Scotty beams on a sunny June afternoon, Augusta National is not even on the first page.
Gib,
I have been on a different side of an argument relating to the 15th, where I was defending it as not an excessively penal hole for a 12 handicap. But your statement about all par 5´s being essentialy par 4s is plain wrong. While all par 5s might be reachable in 2 by the longer hitters, they require two perfect shots from difficult lies, with very bad consequences on 13 and 15 for less than great shots.
While for me too it might not be the best course I played, it is very close to the best and it is by far the best golf experience I have had anwhere in the world. And where I have felt most welcome by nice, down to earth members that are proud of their club and happy to have you as their guest. The ANGC experience is not only a 10 out of 10, it is a 100 out of 100.
With respect to the holes you do not find exciting, I can only suggest you attend a practice day of the Masters. Hole 1 (challenging tough green to putt and hold an approach), 2 (great driving hole and a lovely second shot), 3 (challenging wedge and putt), and 4 are all fantastic for different reasons. The tee shot on 6 is unbeliavable. 8 and 9 are lots of fun. And you left out 15, a great par 5 for amateurs.
After reading you, I am tempted to stop saying it is not the absolute best course I have played, because it is just unfairly negative towards ANGC and maybe even arrogant. No golfer that has the chance should pass on the opportunity to visit the Masters or play the course.
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Now look kiddies, did I declare a philosophical aversion to playing Augusta National? Did I mount my soapbox and vow to turn down an invitation to play it - with a sniff and indifferent wave of the hand? Did I say the golf course is an overrated piece of shit? Nope. All I am asserting is an unwillingness to perform fellatio on an aging blue hair to take a few divots on their hallowed ground.
In the interest of full disclosure, some years ago I was invited to play Augusta as a guest to fill out a foursome. To do so would have required taking a red-eye to Atlanta, driving straight to Augusta and then having to come home the next day. So, I politely declined. My life went on as before and it is not even on the third page of regrets for things that might have been.
My father, who was a raconteur on the order of the movie Big Fish, used to chide me about my complaints of being too busy to do this or that with rolled eyes and “If it was a tee time at Cypress Point, you’d find a way, even from a jail cell.”
That statement - like most everything else he ever lampooned with - is still 100% true. However, it was *not* worth it to kill myself to fly 2500 miles to play Augusta National on a moment’s notice. That stated, if Mucci or Normoyle called and invited me to be on the 1st tee of PV or NGLA tomorrow afternoon, well, I’d be there - even having played both several times.
I’d also like to clarify a previous comment. True enough that 15 friends all agreed Augusta was not their *favorite* golf course, but not one stated it was an overrated goat track. Every single one of them marveled at the width the breadth, the severity of the slopes and the insanity of the putting surfaces. However, all of them are extremely well-traveled, have ionospheric knowledge of golf architecture and mostly impervious to starry-eyed awe at arrangements of grass and sand.
There is also a sub-set of my friends who have played Augusta that returned with messy underwear, hyperventilating about the sparkling wonder of the place. One of them - reasonably well traveled, but who doesn’t know Alister Mackenzie from Mackenzie Phillips - proclaimed it the most exciting day of his life. I’m sure his oldest child is thrilled to know his birth was supplanted by a club so insufferably stodgy, the members would likely refer to him as a Bronx guinea. I’m guessing they don’t even allow Armenians there as gardeners, let alone members.
Putting aside my snarky editorializing, when I finally get there, I’ll surely be dutifully impressed - but let’s face it, is Augusta more beautiful that Cypress Point? Probably not. Is it more strategic than NGLA? Is it more majestic than County Down? Is it more historic than St. Andrews? Is it 18 straight fantastic golf holes without a single weakness like PV?
Just asking.
P.S. And for the record, I did not assert the par-5s are all reachable; out of curiosity I asked if our ex-DoG was correct or not. Evidently, there is some disagreement - although it is possible the regular tees were further up in those days. I have no idea.
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Gib - a favour please: if you ever DO play Augusta, I hope you can include a detailed description of HOW you gained access in your report. I do not want to go through my days imagining an alternative scenario...
Peter
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Gib,
Your DOG is correct.
All par 5's are easily reachable from member tees-which really aren't even longer than they used to be.
My guess would be that every par 5 at nearly every iconic course would be easily reachable from member tees.
Heck NGLA had two on the front nine that were short iron reachable from the BACK tees until they awkwardly converted 5 to a par 4,
so I can't even imagine it from the member tees.
But I really don't see why a pro's opinion of a course from the member tees is relevant.
I love NGLA-one of my favorites-but I wouldn't say it's more strategic than ANGC-other than the now driveable par 4's which weren't originally designed for that to be the case.Under that logic, I guess ANGC is more strategic now that technolgy has made 3 driveable-it never was before
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P.S. And for the record, I did not assert the par-5s are all reachable; out of curiosity I asked if our ex-DoG was correct or not. Evidently, there is some disagreement - although it is possible the regular tees were further up in those days. I have no idea.
I dont think you said they were reachable, but did imply they were not real par fives. And I did not say they are not reachable, in fact I have reached most. I did say all par 5s required very well struck shots to land on the green (and stay on the green) in 2.
At 515 yards, the downhill 2 is the longest, so clearly reachable even in winter conditions and (I believe) higher cut of fairways. Eight is not short uphill.
At 455 and 475, they are multiple reasons to lay up on 13 and 15 following good drices, and they are true, strategic par 5s. Remember you would be hitting a fairway wood or hybrid from an awkward stance on 13 at least, and that short or long on 15 is a problem, and most amateurs would have a higher length deviation from mean than pros.
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I'm curious about something. Jim Lucius, our longtime DoG at Olympic played Augusta more than 25 times over the years. His contention was that from the Member Tees, it is "essentially a par-68 golf course."
Supposedly, although the senior members and shorter hitting guests struggle with the upslopes and taking advantage of the downward tumble of some fairways, a reasonably good single-digit handicapper can reach all the par-5s in two - and with an experienced caddie can negotiate the slower green speeds without too much trouble.
Truth be told, I've little incentive or interest in playing the golf course beyond just saying I've done it. One of these days I would like to attend a Masters practice round to see the slopes and especially study the putting surface contours - but teeing it up is not really on my bucket list.
I count nearly 25 friends who've played Augusta and of the 15 or so whose opinions I respect, NOT ONE has ever told me it is their favorite golf course. Not the experience, the golf course itself.
It is fashionable around here to diss on Augusta National - which may or may not be valid - but while watching the final round thrills and spills is incredibly entertaining, the only holes that wiggle my giggle are #10-14, 16-17. The rest looks pretty uninspired aside from the wildly contoured greens.
Never been there, so I'm talking out my ass, but if I can choose where Scotty beams on a sunny June afternoon, Augusta National is not even on the first page.
Gib,
I have been on a different side of an argument relating to the 15th, where I was defending it as not an excessively penal hole for a 12 handicap. But your statement about all par 5´s being essentialy par 4s is plain wrong. While all par 5s might be reachable in 2 by the longer hitters, they require two perfect shots from difficult lies, with very bad consequences on 13 and 15 for less than great shots.
While for me too it might not be the best course I played, it is very close to the best and it is by far the best golf experience I have had anwhere in the world. And where I have felt most welcome by nice, down to earth members that are proud of their club and happy to have you as their guest. The ANGC experience is not only a 10 out of 10, it is a 100 out of 100.
With respect to the holes you do not find exciting, I can only suggest you attend a practice day of the Masters. Hole 1 (challenging tough green to putt and hold an approach), 2 (great driving hole and a lovely second shot), 3 (challenging wedge and putt), and 4 are all fantastic for different reasons. The tee shot on 6 is unbeliavable. 8 and 9 are lots of fun. And you left out 15, a great par 5 for amateurs.
After reading you, I am tempted to stop saying it is not the absolute best course I have played, because it is just unfairly negative towards ANGC and maybe even arrogant. No golfer that has the chance should pass on the opportunity to visit the Masters or play the course.
One build on your Augusta is a "100 out of 100" comment.
Several years ago I was the guest of a company with long time connections to Augusta during the Masters. During cocktail hour, my marketing contact introduced me to another company rep. We started talking about Augusta and golf architecture.
Believe me it was a conversation that could have been held right here on GolfClubAtlas complete with criticisms of changes that have been made to the course and comments about Augusta's potential role and failure to address the golf ball technology issue.
This other company rep couldn't have been nicer and more interested in the architecture issue.
Little did I know. The guy was the company CEO, a member at Augusta and a perfect, quite down to earth gentleman.
Apparently, the CEO was also thrilled I didn't know who he was and that we could have such an open and honest discussion about the golf course.
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Some of the comments here shock me. How can one dislike a place they have never been to nor ever want to go there? And if given the opportunity to play there, who would be crazy enuf to turn that down??
If bagging on Augusta is cool, consider GCA Miles Davis.
I recently played golf with two 50 something Brits who had never heard of Miles Davis or John Coltrane :-\
Ciao
In some circles, that makes them even cooler.
The circle of philistines? That sounds harsh, but jeepers. Its one thing to not know any Davis/Coltrane music, but quite another to not know who they were.
Ciao
Reverse who you think "them" referred to.
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Reverse who you think "them" referred to.
This deserves a Judge Smails "Ah. Ho ho."
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..."All I am asserting is an unwillingness to perform fellatio on an aging blue hair to take a few divots on their hallowed ground."
[/size]
[/size]I wonder if there is a golfer out there who owes his access to ANGC to this method. [/color] ;D
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..."All I am asserting is an unwillingness to perform fellatio on an aging blue hair to take a few divots on their hallowed ground."
[/size]
[/size]I wonder if there is a golfer out there who owes his access to ANGC to this method. [/color] ;D
I doubt it.
Any blue hair who can get in at Augusta can easily afford a proper service if needed/required. ;)
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I'm curious about something. Jim Lucius, our longtime DoG at Olympic played Augusta more than 25 times over the years. His contention was that from the Member Tees, it is "essentially a par-68 golf course."
Supposedly, although the senior members and shorter hitting guests struggle with the upslopes and taking advantage of the downward tumble of some fairways, a reasonably good single-digit handicapper can reach all the par-5s in two - and with an experienced caddie can negotiate the slower green speeds without too much trouble.
Truth be told, I've little incentive or interest in playing the golf course beyond just saying I've done it. One of these days I would like to attend a Masters practice round to see the slopes and especially study the putting surface contours - but teeing it up is not really on my bucket list.
I count nearly 25 friends who've played Augusta and of the 15 or so whose opinions I respect, NOT ONE has ever told me it is their favorite golf course. Not the experience, the golf course itself.
It is fashionable around here to diss on Augusta National - which may or may not be valid - but while watching the final round thrills and spills is incredibly entertaining, the only holes that wiggle my giggle are #10-14, 16-17. The rest looks pretty uninspired aside from the wildly contoured greens.
Never been there, so I'm talking out my ass, but if I can choose where Scotty beams on a sunny June afternoon, Augusta National is not even on the first page.
Gib, I just saw the news that Lynn Swann is the new AD at USC and since you are a high level USC athletic supporter, and he's an Augusta member, you should be a shoe in for a round there!
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Gib, I just saw the news that Lynn Swann is the new AD at USC and since you are a high level USC athletic supporter, and he's an Augusta member, you should be a shoe in for a round there!
Time to trot out my Lynn Swann story:
My mom, who is an angel walking the earth, was at the Pittsburgh Airport with my dad and sister. They were walking past the various gates, and she saw Lynn. She said, hey, there's Lynn Swann! Hi Lynn! And he turned and smiled and politely said hi.
Every true Pittsburgher recognizes and loves Lynn. :)
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The discussion of Augusta on here has always baffled me. Seems driven by far more than architecture. And that's sad, for an architecture site.
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Gib, I just saw the news that Lynn Swann is the new AD at USC and since you are a high level USC athletic supporter, and he's an Augusta member, you should be a shoe in for a round there!
Time to trot out my Lynn Swann story:
My mom, who is an angel walking the earth, was at the Pittsburgh Airport with my dad and sister. They were walking past the various gates, and she saw Lynn. She said, hey, there's Lynn Swann! Hi Lynn! And he turned and smiled and politely said hi.
Every true Pittsburgher recognizes and loves Lynn. :)
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The discussion of Augusta on here has always baffled me. Seems driven by far more than architecture. And that's sad, for an architecture site.
And I thought this Cleveland Browns fans could go at least a few more months without someone invoking all that ails our team (i.e., that the league's second-best franchise resides just down the interstate).
George -- I'm not terribly surprised at the GCA take on Augusta -- this is a crowd, after all, that prefers brown to green, naturally evolving to forced changes, width over length, and tends to sneer at tournament golf not played in the U.K. or Australia.
What's always interested me is that Augusta -- according to those who have played there -- still maintains a degree (many of them, in fact, if what we read is correct) of those values: if not the firmest course in the world, it seems plenty firm; if less wide than in previous incarnations, it seems pretty wide compared to most courses; it seems to require thoughtfulness about how to approach playing it (we here at GCA, I've noticed, tend to believe in the religion of playing golf backwards, i.e., green placement, pin positions, and green contours ought to dictate how one approaches a hole off the tee ((see Doak, Tom, and basically everything he espouses)) ). Augusta has always struck me as a pretty strategic golf course, which may be one of the defining values of this board.
But I do think the tournament, and how it's presented on TV, and the accommodations it has made for the modern game, influence views around here.
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This thread has taken a left field turn...practically out of the gate. That said, I am not sure why anyone gets the impression that the GCA.com crowd is hating on Augusta. Practically every negative comment comes couched in the context of the course being great and people wanting play or even visit regardless of green, brown or blue. Keep things in perspective.
Back to the main point I was trying make. With the extraordinary high percentage of play (whatever that number is) connected with tournament golf, do people think the changes the club makes to the course are justified? I am saying people have to like the changes, but are they justified given the tournament pedigree of he course? If so, is August about the course on the planet which can possibly make such a claim?
Ciao
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This thread has taken a left field turn...practically out of the gate. That said, I am not sure why anyone gets the impression that the GCA.com crowd is hating on Augusta. Practically every negative comment comes couched in the context of the course being great and people wanting play or even visit regardless of green, brown or blue. Keep things in perspective.
Back to the main point I was trying make. With the extraordinary high percentage of play (whatever that number is) connected with tournament golf, do people think the changes the club makes to the course are justified? I am saying people have to like the changes, but are they justified given the tournament pedigree of he course? If so, is August about the course on the planet which can possibly make such a claim?
Ciao
I hate to say this but I think Mr. Mucci is correct. There is such a huge difference between championship and member tees, and green speeds too, that I think it evens out between members and PGA tour players.
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Back to the main point I was trying make. With the extraordinary high percentage of play (whatever that number is) connected with tournament golf, do people think the changes the club makes to the course are justified? I am saying people have to like the changes, but are they justified given the tournament pedigree of he course? If so, is August about the course on the planet which can possibly make such a claim?
Ciao
Although I think Augusta is the course most connected to a particular tournament, I don't believe it stands alone in that regard. I think both TPC Sawgrass as well as Erin Hills were built with major level tournaments in mind. Obviously the amount of public/resort play at those courses distinguishes them from ANGC, but I feel their primary purpose is to host a tournament and test the best in the world, not the rest.
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"Justified" is kind of a tough word. I suppose that would depend on what Augusta's priorities are--and (from way outside) it would seem to me like the Masters is the chief priority. They close the Club down every summer (no idea how many other clubs do this--but I would think very very few) and use that opportunity to make relentless improvements to the player and spectator experience at the Masters. They spend millions on millions acquiring property to make changes to the parking, hospitality and media experiences. I would argue that the Masters comes first and then the Membership comes second.
Even still--how dramatically different is this golf course for the Members as compared to maybe 15 or so years ago?
Have they compromised the experience of playing the golf course from Members' tees?
I'm not saying they haven't--but other than the trees down the right of 11 and 15/17 I'm not sure I can think of any real dramatic changes for someone who is playing the course from the Members' tees.
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From the members tees I don´t think recent changes have been too dramatic.
In fact, the loss of Ike´s tree and the decision not to replace it, has certainly made one hole easier. I might be corrected, but I believe Ike´s tree had a second tree behind it, in the same line of play. I though that would stay and "replace" it. I believe it was also taken down, and not by the storm. If this is the case, there appears to have been a conscious effort to make this hole wider, more forgiving and allow for more choice of the tee. I only get this impression from photos and might be completely wrong about the facts.
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The second tree is visibile in this photo. By the way, I also believe that tree was not there for many years, so a deliberate effort was put in to have a replacement, and then to take it out. Again, I am speculating as to motives and might not even have my facts right.
(http://i.imgur.com/5PyD9ff.jpg)