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GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture Discussion Group => Topic started by: Thomas Dai on March 01, 2016, 03:13:34 PM

Title: Sand free revetted bunkers
Post by: Thomas Dai on March 01, 2016, 03:13:34 PM
While playing recently I observed a newly refurbished revetted bunker that had not yet had any sand installed. It appeared to be pretty impressive 'as is' and I wondered what sand less revetted bunkers, ie with a grass base, would be like as features on courses (are there any and if so where?).


Would one be harder/easier to play from than if sand were present? What would the maintenance aspects be like? What about from the rules perspective, eg if they had rainwater water in it would conditions then mean casual water?


Thoughts welcome.


Atb
Title: Re: Sand free revetted bunkers
Post by: John Kavanaugh on March 01, 2016, 03:20:18 PM
How you gonna rake a divot.
Title: Re: Sand free revetted bunkers
Post by: Tim Gallant on March 01, 2016, 03:31:45 PM
How you gonna rake a divot.




 ;D This made me laugh out loud. Thank you Mr. Kavanaugh!
Title: Re: Sand free revetted bunkers
Post by: Michael Felton on March 01, 2016, 03:41:25 PM
If you were anywhere close to the lip, it would be quite a bit harder to get out I would think. If you were further back, it would be quite a bit easier. That's assuming that the grass was cut short. If it was rough, then it would depend entirely on the lie. If it was greenside, it would be brutal.
Title: Re: Sand free revetted bunkers
Post by: Jon Wiggett on March 01, 2016, 04:41:53 PM
If you were anywhere close to the lip, it would be quite a bit harder to get out I would think. If you were further back, it would be quite a bit easier. That's assuming that the grass was cut short. If it was rough, then it would depend entirely on the lie. If it was greenside, it would be brutal.

As long as they are not to deep then it should not be too hard. Also, a decent slope near the base of the face to ensure a decent bit of distance from it would also be a good thing.

Jon
Title: Re: Sand free revetted bunkers
Post by: Michael Felton on March 02, 2016, 08:55:00 AM
If you were anywhere close to the lip, it would be quite a bit harder to get out I would think. If you were further back, it would be quite a bit easier. That's assuming that the grass was cut short. If it was rough, then it would depend entirely on the lie. If it was greenside, it would be brutal.

As long as they are not to deep then it should not be too hard. Also, a decent slope near the base of the face to ensure a decent bit of distance from it would also be a good thing.

Jon


Fair point. I think of revetted bunkers and I think of something like this:


(http://www.europeantour.com/mm/Photo/Tournament/Tournaments/23/74/84/237484_M08.jpg)
Title: Re: Sand free revetted bunkers
Post by: Jon Wiggett on March 02, 2016, 03:51:59 PM
If you were anywhere close to the lip, it would be quite a bit harder to get out I would think. If you were further back, it would be quite a bit easier. That's assuming that the grass was cut short. If it was rough, then it would depend entirely on the lie. If it was greenside, it would be brutal.

As long as they are not to deep then it should not be too hard. Also, a decent slope near the base of the face to ensure a decent bit of distance from it would also be a good thing.

Jon


Fair point. I think of revetted bunkers and I think of something like this:


(http://www.europeantour.com/mm/Photo/Tournament/Tournaments/23/74/84/237484_M08.jpg)

Michael,

me too and there are many examples of such but in reality the majority of revetted bunkers are not of the deep pot variety.

Jon
Title: Re: Sand free revetted bunkers
Post by: Thomas Dai on March 02, 2016, 05:01:48 PM
Thank you for your thoughts.

Generally sand bunkers these days present less of a hazard than they once did and also, due to the desire of some to have them almost manicured, they seem to take up quite a significant amount of maintenance time, as has been discussed on several recent threads.


Would having some grass bunkers, or rather hollows, that are revetted - or indeed some other type of firm angled face (sleepers?) that doesn't need to be mowed - be a way of having an occasional really severe hazard, one that shouts to you "I'm nasty, take me on if you dare or stay away". And if the base of the hollow has a few divots, well so what!

Atb



Title: Re: Sand free revetted bunkers
Post by: Kalen Braley on March 02, 2016, 05:25:43 PM
Thomas,

Its an interesting thought, but if you don't have any sand in the "bunker", why go to all the hassle and expen$e of putting in the revetted face?

Why not just have a steep grass covered face that one must navigate?  I know Jim Engh uses some pretty steep slopes on his courses to act as "hazards" without being sand or water.
Title: Re: Sand free revetted bunkers
Post by: Thomas Dai on March 02, 2016, 05:45:20 PM
Thanks Kalen,


I'm really just trying to explore the issue, find pro's and con's etc.


I did think of the expens and hassle of revetting and the benefits grassed banks but grass banks tend to need regular mowing and if not the ball can 'hang-up' and that brings about other issues. Plus a grassed bank doesn't look as visually intimidating as revetted (or sleepered etc).


Perhaps something like a native low growing plant, like a heather covered face in an area where heather grows naturally might also fit the bill in terms of intimidation, although this could lead to other issues, like hunting for 'lost' balls etc, plus how well would such plants grow on near vertical faces?


As I said above I'm just trying to explore the issue so thoughts welcome.


Atb


 
Title: Re: Sand free revetted bunkers
Post by: James Boon on March 02, 2016, 06:01:41 PM
Thomas,


There are a few examples of revetted features without sand at Castle Stuart. From memory the left of the short par 4 3rd has some small ones which are just revetted "eyebrows" to make you have to pitch over then rather than putt or chip and run up the bank. I also recall one just short of the 18th green that was deeper and more bunker like with a revetted face though without sand. A few pictures here... http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php?topic=42035.0


Interesting idea and I like the idea of variety but I'm no expert regarding the practicalities...


Cheers,


James
Title: Re: Sand free revetted bunkers
Post by: Sean_A on March 03, 2016, 05:14:34 AM
ATB


If you create a gathering grass bunker similar to revetted pots it will be a divot fest.  To me its seems far more simple to create earthworks above ground and forget digging a hole which needs maintenance.  If you must dig holes, use a style which doesn't need much maintenance.   


Ciao
Title: Re: Sand free revetted bunkers
Post by: Ally Mcintosh on March 03, 2016, 05:27:41 AM
James,

I'd forgotten about that feature on the 18th at Castle Stuart.

I toyed with doing something similar to the right of the 6th green on the Kilmore 9 but threw it out in the end as a little contrived for that particular site.

I do like the feature though and would consider it in future. Best as a retaining wall as opposed to an actual grass bunker.
Title: Re: Sand free revetted bunkers
Post by: Niall C on March 03, 2016, 06:23:42 AM
James/Ally


Re the "eyebrow" on no.3 at CS, looks twee and more to the point eliminates the run up option which kind of runs contrary to what CS is supposed to be about. The bank in front of the 18th does the job well enough without the need for a collection point for divots. Again, this feature tends to promote the aerial game even if it doesn't eliminate the ground game altogether. Just MHO.


Niall
Title: Re: Sand free revetted bunkers
Post by: Ally Mcintosh on March 03, 2016, 07:19:25 AM
Niall,

Used best when trying to marry in two levels.

Ally
Title: Re: Sand free revetted bunkers
Post by: Sean_A on March 03, 2016, 07:55:27 AM
I don't mind the look of the grass bunker on 18, but you can see the issue of divots...and its obviously a sandy area...why not just fill it with sand?


Ciao
Title: Re: Sand free revetted bunkers
Post by: Thomas Dai on March 03, 2016, 09:46:10 AM
Nice examples ref Castle Stuart. Not been to CS (yet) but the one in front of the 18th green, thanks for the link to you splendid phototour James, looks the kind of thing I'm wondering about.


As mentioned earlier, the ground game issue isn't to me an issue as this kind of feature would replace a sand bunker not be in addition to it and the divot issue is not one that fusses me much......don't hit it there, ie "I'm a nasty spot, take me on if you really dare or else play well away from me"..........although if really deemed necessary a small area of turf could always be replaced - you could even have artificial grass there, on second thoughts let's not go down that discussion road just now!! :)


On links courses would this type of feature would be of benefit in spots where sand is likely to blow out of bunkers and on parkland courses would maintenance work be less in comparison to sand bunkers?


Off now to look at my photos of the 6th on the Kilmore at Carne.


Atb
Title: Re: Sand free revetted bunkers
Post by: Tom_Doak on March 03, 2016, 10:12:23 AM


Re the "eyebrow" on no.3 at CS, looks twee


Is this a Scottish expression I'm not familiar with, or a typo?


Regarding Castle Stuart's revetted faces, I think they are inspired by those short sleepered walls on a couple of holes at Rye.  When Gil Hanse worked for me, he mentioned that he'd loved those, and we put one in on a grassy hollow to the right of the 13th green at The Legends in Myrtle Beach.


As with formalized grass bunkers, I wonder if such things are really any more effective than just normal shaping.
Title: Re: Sand free revetted bunkers
Post by: Niall C on March 03, 2016, 10:59:09 AM
Tom


Not sure if "twee" is of Scottish origin or not but here's a random definition from internet;



twee

twiː/

adjective
BRITISH[/color][/font][/size]




excessively or affectedly quaint, pretty, or sentimental.
"although the film's a bit twee, it's watchable"
[color=rgb(135, 135, 135) !important]synonyms:[/color]quaint (https://www.google.co.uk/search?espv=2&biw=1280&bih=899&q=define+quaint&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjA5qXg76TLAhXRhhoKHR1pB-oQ_SoIHjAA)[color=rgb(135, 135, 135) !important], [/color]sweet (https://www.google.co.uk/search?espv=2&biw=1280&bih=899&q=define+sweet&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjA5qXg76TLAhXRhhoKHR1pB-oQ_SoIHzAA)[color=rgb(135, 135, 135) !important], [/color]bijou (https://www.google.co.uk/search?espv=2&biw=1280&bih=899&q=define+bijou&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjA5qXg76TLAhXRhhoKHR1pB-oQ_SoIIDAA)[color=rgb(135, 135, 135) !important], [/color]dainty (https://www.google.co.uk/search?espv=2&biw=1280&bih=899&q=define+dainty&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjA5qXg76TLAhXRhhoKHR1pB-oQ_SoIITAA)[color=rgb(135, 135, 135) !important], [/color]pretty (https://www.google.co.uk/search?espv=2&biw=1280&bih=899&q=define+pretty&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjA5qXg76TLAhXRhhoKHR1pB-oQ_SoIIjAA)[color=rgb(135, 135, 135) !important], pretty-pretty; [/t][/color]

  • I used the term in previous discussions regarding the "faux" bunkering at CS, particularly some of the ones way off to the side that had sleepers as you refer to. It's an aesthetic thing but my main objection to the eyebrows, if objection isn't too strong a word, is that they effectively stop someone using the putter which for a lot of golfers north of the border is a real pain.



Re the 18th grass bunker, I should declare an interest and say that I've been in it and failed to get out of it. I was lying in a divot if I remember correctly.


Niall


ps this formatting is becoming a pain
Title: Re: Sand free revetted bunkers
Post by: Tim Gallant on March 04, 2016, 08:50:30 AM


Re the "eyebrow" on no.3 at CS, looks twee


Is this a Scottish expression I'm not familiar with, or a typo?


Regarding Castle Stuart's revetted faces, I think they are inspired by those short sleepered walls on a couple of holes at Rye.  When Gil Hanse worked for me, he mentioned that he'd loved those, and we put one in on a grassy hollow to the right of the 13th green at The Legends in Myrtle Beach.


As with formalized grass bunkers, I wonder if such things are really any more effective than just normal shaping.


There are indeed a number of these 'sleepered walls' at Rye, particularly on the par 3s if memory serves. I think this is a wonderful feature for a few reasons: it takes the putter out of the hand, meaning that what first appears to be a simple-ish up and down, now becomes more difficult. Also, it is more easy to maintain - i.e. no need to rebuild revetted bunker faces, etc.


I found on one hole (believe it was the 14th), I was a mere 5 feet off the left side of the green, but had gone down into a swale. It was a virtually impossibility to get up and down because I couldn't putt (sleeper eyebrow), but there was a slope behind my ball that made any shot but a bump and run (again protected by sleeper) non-existent. It was sublime. People talk about knowing where to miss at Augusta, but I would say the same was true at Rye. I learned the hard way where not to miss :)
Title: Re: Sand free revetted bunkers
Post by: Michael Felton on March 04, 2016, 09:50:35 AM
I found on one hole (believe it was the 14th), I was a mere 5 feet off the left side of the green, but had gone down into a swale. It was a virtually impossibility to get up and down because I couldn't putt (sleeper eyebrow), but there was a slope behind my ball that made any shot but a bump and run (again protected by sleeper) non-existent. It was sublime. People talk about knowing where to miss at Augusta, but I would say the same was true at Rye. I learned the hard way where not to miss :)


So you missed the green by 5 feet and you had no shot you could play? That strikes me as a little much. I have no problem with it being very difficult, but there should be something you can do.
Title: Re: Sand free revetted bunkers
Post by: Tim Gallant on March 04, 2016, 10:08:05 AM
I found on one hole (believe it was the 14th), I was a mere 5 feet off the left side of the green, but had gone down into a swale. It was a virtually impossibility to get up and down because I couldn't putt (sleeper eyebrow), but there was a slope behind my ball that made any shot but a bump and run (again protected by sleeper) non-existent. It was sublime. People talk about knowing where to miss at Augusta, but I would say the same was true at Rye. I learned the hard way where not to miss :)


So you missed the green by 5 feet and you had no shot you could play? That strikes me as a little much. I have no problem with it being very difficult, but there should be something you can do.


You can. Putt it back up the fairway towards the tee :) It reminds me of a shot like the 16th at ANGC (although I have never played - so no authority). I have seen at the Masters how if you miss the green and end up in the back-right bunker, it is a near impossible up and down. I would imagine that amateur golfers would find that shot exceedingly difficult even though the miss wasn't terrible. But if you miss in the front bunker near the pond, it should be a relatively easy out with a backstop to help stop the ball.


That's why I like the sleepered brows. Seem tame on the tee in comparison to a deep bunker, but can be just as difficult, if not downright nasty.
Title: Re: Sand free revetted bunkers
Post by: Kalen Braley on March 04, 2016, 11:44:18 AM
I found on one hole (believe it was the 14th), I was a mere 5 feet off the left side of the green, but had gone down into a swale. It was a virtually impossibility to get up and down because I couldn't putt (sleeper eyebrow), but there was a slope behind my ball that made any shot but a bump and run (again protected by sleeper) non-existent. It was sublime. People talk about knowing where to miss at Augusta, but I would say the same was true at Rye. I learned the hard way where not to miss :)


So you missed the green by 5 feet and you had no shot you could play? That strikes me as a little much. I have no problem with it being very difficult, but there should be something you can do.

Michael,

So any green that has a water hazard within 5 feet of it are no good?  I guess you think ANGC #13 is chopped liver then!!   ;)
Title: Re: Sand free revetted bunkers
Post by: Michael Felton on March 04, 2016, 01:29:21 PM
I found on one hole (believe it was the 14th), I was a mere 5 feet off the left side of the green, but had gone down into a swale. It was a virtually impossibility to get up and down because I couldn't putt (sleeper eyebrow), but there was a slope behind my ball that made any shot but a bump and run (again protected by sleeper) non-existent. It was sublime. People talk about knowing where to miss at Augusta, but I would say the same was true at Rye. I learned the hard way where not to miss :)


So you missed the green by 5 feet and you had no shot you could play? That strikes me as a little much. I have no problem with it being very difficult, but there should be something you can do.

Michael,

So any green that has a water hazard within 5 feet of it are no good?  I guess you think ANGC #13 is chopped liver then!!   ;)


I think in my mind, there is a difference between a water hazard, which you know is there and the penalty is clear versus an area of grass that I assume has a tendency to put a ball in a virtually unplayable position.
Title: Re: Sand free revetted bunkers
Post by: Kalen Braley on March 04, 2016, 01:44:31 PM
Michael,

If I saw a green with a wicked nasty steep grass face on one side...in my mind I would use just as much caution if it were a water hazard.

Like for example, I think its 16 on PGA West that has that nasty deep bunker on the left side of the green.  I would be just as hesitant to get anywhere near that as if it were a water hazard.  Ditto for the road hole bunker on TOC.
Title: Re: Sand free revetted bunkers
Post by: Michael Felton on March 04, 2016, 03:03:25 PM
Michael,

If I saw a green with a wicked nasty steep grass face on one side...in my mind I would use just as much caution if it were a water hazard.

Like for example, I think its 16 on PGA West that has that nasty deep bunker on the left side of the green.  I would be just as hesitant to get anywhere near that as if it were a water hazard.  Ditto for the road hole bunker on TOC.


That's fair, but in both of those cases you still have something that you can do. You can play towards the flag. It may not be easy (might be horrendously difficult) and that's fine, but I don't like the idea of having nothing. As I think about it though, maybe I'm looking at this from the wrong point of view. Thinking of it as "well, you shouldn't have hit it there should you" does make it feel more reasonable.


Quick tale I just remembered - a friend of mine who is a member at RSG told me that the last time the Open was there he was watching Thomas Levet play the 8th hole. Levet had hit his approach short and right of the front right greenside bunker. The hole was cut quite tight on the other side of the bunker. Levet's ball was on a slight downslope on a tight lie. My friend, who is a pretty good player looked at this spot Levet was in and thought to himself he has nothing he can do here. Can't go at the flag. Levet showed him otherwise and left himself a tap-in for his par. He hit a chip - a regular chip shot - into the bank at the top of the bunker. The ball hit the bank, which killed it and the ball popped up and rolled down the slope in front of the bunker onto the green about a foot from the hole. My friend said he'd never even thought of playing that shot and it was pretty high risk. If he'd missed it 6 inches short he'd be in the bunker and a foot long and the ball is chasing along the green. Maybe there's always something that a top level player can do from that spot at Rye.
Title: Re: Sand free revetted bunkers
Post by: Jon Wiggett on March 04, 2016, 03:25:22 PM
I found on one hole (believe it was the 14th), I was a mere 5 feet off the left side of the green, but had gone down into a swale. It was a virtually impossibility to get up and down because I couldn't putt (sleeper eyebrow), but there was a slope behind my ball that made any shot but a bump and run (again protected by sleeper) non-existent. It was sublime. People talk about knowing where to miss at Augusta, but I would say the same was true at Rye. I learned the hard way where not to miss :)


So you missed the green by 5 feet and you had no shot you could play? That strikes me as a little much. I have no problem with it being very difficult, but there should be something you can do.

Michael,

So any green that has a water hazard within 5 feet of it are no good?  I guess you think ANGC #13 is chopped liver then!!   ;)


I think in my mind, there is a difference between a water hazard, which you know is there and the penalty is clear versus an area of grass that I assume has a tendency to put a ball in a virtually unplayable position.

Michael,

I do not believe there was anything UNPLAYABLE about the shot just that it was very difficult to play directly towards the flag with any hope of success.

Jon
Title: Re: Sand free revetted bunkers
Post by: Kalen Braley on March 04, 2016, 03:32:48 PM
Michael,

That sounds fair, I think that's a pretty good explanation.

I also put extreme short-siding in this kind of category as well, like being in the thick rough above the hole,  where the pin is 5 paces on,  and all you have between you and the hole is a slick downhill green.  So in these situations I try to use the same caution in not getting in those brutal spots.

P.S. And given your example of Rye and Thomas Levet, I too am amazed at the kind of shots they can hit to recover in impossible situations...
Title: Re: Sand free revetted bunkers
Post by: Rhydian Lewis on March 05, 2016, 11:04:20 AM
Cape bunker at Royal North Devon (Westward Ho!) no longer has sand across the entire width of the face. It is not revetted (Sleepers) but is a huge behemoth of a bunker that now has a grass base for around 50% of the width of the face (maybe less than 50% but a good proportion).

If a drive ends up within 10ft or so of the face then most golfers would have no option other than to play out sideways or backwards. The problem I have with this particular bunker is that the golfer HAS to hit over it. I've been a low single digit player most of my life and found it quite intimidating (though really enjoyable) to launch one over it. However for a mid to high handicapper..... maybe the choice is 8 iron lay up, wedge over the top? Not sure that works for me though. The thrill of taking on a hazard like this or trying to carry water etc is surely what mot golfers enjoy, if I think I can make the shot and I'm not playig tournament golf, I'm taking it on. If I fail then I accept the penalty. I think the same can be said of a known revetted face or high grass bank. If I'm playing for a pin and know about the risk it heightens my enjoyment. If I have to play backwards that's the risk I take, if I opt for safety and protect my score I may put together a better score but i won't have gotten the thrill of 'taking it on', for me that's the golfers choice.

Not sure Cape Bunker give the golfer too much choice.

Incidentally the reason the club decided to remove the sand was based on cost and maintenance, likewise other sleeper faces and natural revetted faces are being replaced by synthetic revetment for the same reasons. This synthetic revetment is also now begining to be used for retaining walls as suggested earlier in the discussion. Synthetic revetted bunkers with no sand....that would fuel some debate!!
Title: Re: Sand free revetted bunkers
Post by: Thomas Dai on March 05, 2016, 12:50:00 PM
Synthetic revetted bunkers with no sand....that would fuel some debate!!


Interesting that you should mention this Rhydian, as it was something I did wonder about mentioning in my initial post.


Also interesting that you should mention the cost of maintaining the sandy parts of the famous RND/Westward Ho! Cape bunker as a resaon for switching to grass.


Over the years I've seen all sorts of materials used for bunker faces, sleepers obviously, but also things like slightly angled vertical corrugated iron sheets! Indeed a friend once made a practice bunker from a secondhand sand filled moulded fishpond with a few holes drilled in the base to let the rainwater out and angled wooden pallets as a face. Heath Robinson maybe, but it worked and it was cheap to build!


Atb