Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture Discussion Group => Topic started by: John Kavanaugh on November 17, 2015, 11:08:16 AM
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With the unconditional love being heaped upon the course I would like to revisit the 1st hole. Thanks.
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Which version?
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Which version?
The current version, I only played it unDoaked.
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Which version?
The current version, I only played it unDoaked.
The current version is the post Doak version. But if memory serves me correctly, he only restored the bunkering....
This pic looks pretty current.
(http://www.golfclubatlas.com/images/Pasatiempo1.jpg)
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Kalen,
I believe quite a few trees have been removed to the right of the fairway since the picture you posted was taken.
TK
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The hole is about 450-460 yards, and was changed to a par 4 15-20 years ago.
The tee shot:
(http://i226.photobucket.com/albums/dd44/johnmkirk/Pasatiempo-1st-Tee_zpsphc8hkng.jpg) (http://s226.photobucket.com/user/johnmkirk/media/Pasatiempo-1st-Tee_zpsphc8hkng.jpg.html)
Closeup on approach shot:
(http://i226.photobucket.com/albums/dd44/johnmkirk/Pasatiempo-1st-Fairway_zpsaif5urvo.jpg) (http://s226.photobucket.com/user/johnmkirk/media/Pasatiempo-1st-Fairway_zpsaif5urvo.jpg.html)
It is not one of my favorite holes on the course, perhaps because it requires you to hit an excellent drive on the first shot to make par. If I really bust one, I can have a 7-iron left, though 4-iron to 7-wood is more common. There's a nifty 30-40 yard bunker short and left, which must be carried to get short and left of the green, where getting up and down is easiest. The green is quite difficult, and as always, the green is stylish and attractive. A very difficult par, I start a round at Pasa with a bogey at least 70% of the time.
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It remains a much better hole as a par 5 from the upper tee. The bunkering was design to play havoc with the second shot. The tee shot doesn't have to be perfect and long to make a 5. This is much more in line with many Mackenzie openers such as the Valley and Meadow Clubs.
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We also would have accepted the 1st hole at Valley Club. There are few openers more similar (for obvious reasons).
(http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e69/rsfpar/valley%20club/111_zpsdz8bwcif.jpg)
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(http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y47/cohnhead72/IMG_3144_zpsgjhnzsak.jpg)
(http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y47/cohnhead72/IMG_3057_zpstx1ccu1t.jpg)
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WOW -- love the tree removal on this hole (and subsequently #9). I played there 14 years ago and it was very tight, especially #7 if I remember correctly.
Need to figure out how to get out that way again soon.
-- Rob
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I don't recall ever seeing pix of this hole before. There can't be many more inauspicious starts to a great course. I assume there are safety reasons for the trees and fence.
Ciao
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Sean,
The "fence" is a net for the driving range which hits back up the hill in the opposite direction of the tee. The trees are likely a necessary component here to protect players coming up the 9th hole.
Originally the 1st hole played from further back up the hill as a par 5, and the driving range was apart of the fairway. I suspect the original version of the hole was better than the current version. After the 7th hole, this is my next least interesting hole on the course.
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Sean,
The "fence" is a net for the driving range which hits back up the hill in the opposite direction of the tee. The trees are likely a necessary component here to protect players coming up the 9th hole.
Originally the 1st hole played from further back up the hill as a par 5, and the driving range was apart of the fairway. I suspect the original version of the hole was better than the current version. After the 7th hole, this is my next least interesting hole on the course.
Originally, like many Classic Age courses, there was no driving range, hence the butt ugly screen.
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(https://farm1.staticflickr.com/654/23094240592_1654bb203f_k.jpg)
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Played Pasa once many years ago. Really enjoyed the course, and I assume I'd like it even more post-Doak restoration, but there is only so much you can do with that opening tee shot...some of those photos do a better job of camoflaging the screen on the left, but it is hard to ignore while standing on the tee.
I agree with Sean's use of the word 'inauspicious', and could add 'uninspiring'. I've seen lists of 'best opening tee shot on a great golf course (eg. Machrihanish), but I think Pasatiempo could lead the list of 'least inspiring opening tee shot on a great golf course'.
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Anybody have a pic of no.1 with the right side bunker at about 250? I'm not sure if it's removal was part of the Doak/Urbina restoration, but it was removed around the same time, that is, late '90s.
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Is the first hole as green as the current photos?
I thought they were not watering the rough.
http://www.golfchannel.com/media/water-week-water-conservation-challenges-pasatiempo-golf-club/
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I agree with Sean's use of the word 'inauspicious', and could add 'uninspiring'. I've seen lists of 'best opening tee shot on a great golf course (eg. Machrihanish), but I think Pasatiempo could lead the list of 'least inspiring opening tee shot on a great golf course'.
Really? With that view of Santa Cruz, the Pacific, and the Monterey Peninsula in the distance? Yeah, it's hemmed in, but I would hardly put it anywhere near the category you put it in. It's a pretty cool spot. Plus I enjoy the synchronicity of how the first tee at Pasatiempo aims directly at Spyglass, and the first tee at Spyglass aims straight at Pasatiempo. Not like you can see them or anything, but I always think of it in both places.
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I agree with Sean's use of the word 'inauspicious', and could add 'uninspiring'. I've seen lists of 'best opening tee shot on a great golf course (eg. Machrihanish), but I think Pasatiempo could lead the list of 'least inspiring opening tee shot on a great golf course'.
I'm with Matt here. It's not a great hole and if don't disagree that it's in the bottom third of holes at Pasa. The first tee view is awesome. You can see a lot of the front 9 and the fantastic setting out beyond. The tee made me excited to play more than I already was.
Now if you wanted to talk about the second shot...
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I agree with Sean's use of the word 'inauspicious', and could add 'uninspiring'. I've seen lists of 'best opening tee shot on a great golf course (eg. Machrihanish), but I think Pasatiempo could lead the list of 'least inspiring opening tee shot on a great golf course'.
Really? With that view of Santa Cruz, the Pacific, and the Monterey Peninsula in the distance? Yeah, it's hemmed in, but I would hardly put it anywhere near the category you put it in. It's a pretty cool spot. Plus I enjoy the synchronicity of how the first tee at Pasatiempo aims directly at Spyglass, and the first tee at Spyglass aims straight at Pasatiempo. Not like you can see them or anything, but I always think of it in both places.
Wow, I actually had to go and check that on Google Earth. I would have never realized that. I would have thought both pointed pretty much WSW and WNW west if I had been asked, and I am normally well aware of directions!!
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https://imgur.com/kpJS0P0 (https://imgur.com/kpJS0P0)
Since I can't figure out how to resize in the new site.
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If you don't believe the 1st hole at Pasa is the worst hole on the course you can not believe that Pasa is a great course.
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Anybody have a pic of no.1 with the right side bunker at about 250? I'm not sure if it's removal was part of the Doak/Urbina restoration, but it was removed around the same time, that is, late '90s.
John,
I looked back on google earth historic images and do not see the bunker you mentioned in an Oct. 1991 aerial. Perhaps it is hidden under the tree canopy, but it doesn't appear to show up.
TK
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At first glance it would appear that a single cut presentation would greatly enhance what appears to be an averge, at best, golf hole.
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Struggling to think of a harder (penal) tee shot on an opening hole on an AM course... the only way is up from an architecture point of view on the course.
Would be interesting to see some early pics... was the current hole the vision that AM had?
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The original design had a treeless expanse covering #1 and to the right #9 along with the driving range on the left. The fairway must have been over 100 yards wide. The first green is angled 7:00 to 2:00, so being on the right or in what is now the driving range would be very advantageous. Also the 9th green angles from 4:00 to 10:00 so being in the first fairway would be better there. There were also no trees between #6 and #7 and #8. MacKenzie mentions a bunker large enough to hide 100 men on the original 6th hole. This must have provided a passive separation of the 6th and 7th fairways. Sadly a golfer on the 8th green was killed when hit in the head by an errant tee shot off #6 tee and the tress were planted. Unfortunately the planters never read any of The Good Doctor's books or they would have realized that he detested rows of trees in echelon and preferred a copse of trees instead. The tree lines have been thinned considerably in recent years. It would be fantastic to play the original treeless design which counted on angle into the green from the large fairways. Apparently the course is much busier these days and that is an impossible dream.
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6th tee to 8th green? That can't be right...
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6th tee to 8th green? That can't be right...
I'm pretty sure he meant 7th tee to 8 green.
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6th tee to 8th green? That can't be right...
I'm pretty sure he meant 7th tee to 8 green.
Gotcha- also figured it could've been 6th tee to 7th green. An admittedly cramped part of the course.
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I looked on Historical Aerials and a few comments. http://www.historicaerials.com/aerials.php?op=home
I see the bunker on the right side of #1 in the aerials from 1968 and before.
The aerials from '53 and '52 also show the hole in what appears much closer to its original state before the trees and the driving range. It clearly shows a very wide target to hit from tee...in contrast to the more narrowed down current version.
1991 show it as its claustrophobic worst, very tightly packed in by trees on both the 1st and 9th holes.
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Historic photograph of Pasatiempo No. 1 from 1929. The absence of trees and long vistas off the property are stunning. Alister Mackenzie offers tons of fairway to encourage players to swing away aggressively from the 1st tee, but only those hugging the left side of the fairway are offered a preferential angle into the green.
(http://i1287.photobucket.com/albums/a631/kearns_t/hist01_zpseseegjz1.jpg) (http://s1287.photobucket.com/user/kearns_t/media/hist01_zpseseegjz1.jpg.html)
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Wonderful photo. For perspective, the house in the far background exists today, above and to the left of the 6th tee and well behind the 7th green. Indeed, it was once owned by one of the course's owners in the '50s and '60s, Admiral Ward.
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Sorry. The house is above and to the right of the sixth tee.
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To me, the question that remains is....
would the powers that be at Pasa ever be interested in returning #1 to its former self, up to an including using a top tee, converting back to a par 5 and reclaiming back part of the driving range? I think it would need to keep the trees separating the 1st and 9th holes, but the rest could be put back in place it seems.
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I don't post here much and have only been to California once. I have very little to offer on this topic except:
a) Pasatiempo is one of the courses on my very short list of courses I would like to play someday. (and actually have a realistic chance of doing so) So any post on the course I find interesting.
b) the photograph posted by Tyler is awesome. Spectacular actually. While it makes sense that the addition of the driving range forced the hand of the club to make some changes...why on earth would anyone add trees down the right hand side?
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Historic photograph of Pasatiempo No. 1 from 1929. The absence of trees and long vistas off the property are stunning. Alister Mackenzie offers tons of fairway to encourage players to swing away aggressively from the 1st tee, but only those hugging the left side of the fairway are offered a preferential angle into the green.
(http://i1287.photobucket.com/albums/a631/kearns_t/hist01_zpseseegjz1.jpg) (http://s1287.photobucket.com/user/kearns_t/media/hist01_zpseseegjz1.jpg.html)
Tyler: Thanks very much for posting that picture. Wow!
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Has there ever been a more blatant destruction of a great hole? Lido exempted.
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Tyler, this may not be the thread for it, but do you have other early photos of Pasatiempo holes as well? The one you posted really is spectacular.
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This might better be the subject of a new post--but in thinking about the planting of trees between 6-7-8 (in my mind the worst part of an otherwise great course), I wonder about other examples of trees planted for apparent safety reasons. I have been told by architects that clubs often want trees planted to protect players on neighboring holes/greens, but that it usually does little good--and often gives a false sense of security.
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Here is a link to a large collection of photos taken by Julian P. Graham of Pasatiempo and elsewhere in the Monterey area from many years ago. If you click/scroll thru far enough, you will find a number of pics of the golf course:
http://www.julianpgraham.com/galleryPasatiempo.htm#
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Jim,
I would be interested in hearing why it does little good....
The thicket of trees at 6,7,8 at Pasa are very difficult to hit thru for just about every shot except for the low shot that never gets more than 10 feet off the ground.
Based on personal experience, of all the treed courses I've played, even when the ball does get thru the trees, most of the energy has been absorbed by the leaves and branches and it if struck a player would not be lethal, even if it still hurt.
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Has there ever been a more blatant destruction of a great hole? Lido exempted.
John,
I don't think what happened to #1 can be described as "blatant". That word suggests it was done with wreckless abandon and disregard for anything or anyone. To the contrary I suspect it was a very calculated move to add a practice facility, (including a putting and chipping green) meanwhile providing safety for players coming up the 9th.
Is the new hole as good as the original? I doubt anyone would make that claim, but its not a bad hole or even just average by any stretch of the imagination. It just suffers more than it would otherwise due to all of the other world class holes found on that course.
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It's one of the worst holes I have ever played in my life. As much for the let down after high expectations as the hole itself. The fact that it is the first hole designed by Mackenzie that most golfers will ever see is blatant in its disregard for history. The fact that few golfers use the practice range is a blatant selfish addition from those who were given the charter to protect the course. I simply can not understand why noted historians travel east and skip holes butchered in a similar fashion while remaining silent on their sins at home. I started this thread because I was at a lost at the quest for this course to be chosen top 100 in the world. I didn't expect to be justified so blatantly.
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It's one of the worst holes I have ever played in my life. As much for the let down after high expectations as the hole itself. The fact that it is the first hole designed by Mackenzie that most golfers will ever see is blatant in its disregard for history. The fact that few golfers use the practice range is a blatant selfish addition from those who were given the charter to protect the course. I simply can not understand why noted historians travel east and skip holes butchered in a similar fashion while remaining silent on their sins at home. I started this thread because I was at a lost at the quest for this course to be chosen top 100 in the world. I didn't expect to be justified so blatantly.
John,
Is there anything specifically about the current state of the hole that you dislike? You've mentioned that you don't like how they treated its origins, but what about the hole itself? Too narrow? Too long? Too penal?
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I only remember feelings. It felt wrong. Really, really wrong. I played on a perfect day with perfect friends, I deserved better for a 1st hole.
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A confession: I'm a first hole kinda guy. If I show up for a shotgun start and get a lousy draw my day is ruined. There is very little rational explanation for this opinion.
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Tyler, this may not be the thread for it, but do you have other early photos of Pasatiempo holes as well? The one you posted really is spectacular.
Jim,
I took that picture from the Pasatiempo website, which includes 1929 pictures of all holes.
Tyler
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John,
to be perfectly fair here, Sounds like its not really a Pasa problem then...more of a personal problem.
P.S. If you didn't like Pasa #1, you likely wouldn't like CPC #1 either....in my opinion, (likely a minority one at that), its not any better.
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Good thing I passed up that chance to play Cypress. If I ever do get that chance again I will pay my caddie and walk off after the first hole if you are even close. I'm done playing courses with a poor excuse of a start.
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Good thing I passed up that chance to play Cypress. If I ever do get that chance again I will pay my caddie and walk off after the first hole if you are even close. I'm done playing courses with a poor excuse of a start.
Ha ha!
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It just suffers more than it would otherwise due to all of the other world class holes found on that course.
I don't recall Pasatiempo having a plethora of "world class holes." I assume the usual suspects are 3, 10, 11 and 16?
I'm not nit-picking here. I'd like to hear from you and others which holes are truly great and why.
Thanks.
Mike
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It just suffers more than it would otherwise due to all of the other world class holes found on that course.
I don't recall Pasatiempo having a plethora of "world class holes." I assume the usual suspects are 3, 10, 11 and 16?
I'm not nit-picking here. I'd like to hear from you and others which holes are truly great and why.
Thanks.
Mike
Micheal,
Three things.
1) I never used the word plethora...only other. ;)
2) 4 World Class holes is 4 more than 99.99% of other golf course have.
3) I would also put #2, 8, 13, 14, and 18 as extremely good/terrific, even if they aren't "world class".
P.S. The back 9 to this day still remains the finest set of 9 holes I've played. Just a terrific routing from head to toe which includes 3 world class holes and 3 other very, very good ones. And the other 3 aren't exactly slouches either.
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would the powers that be at Pasa ever be interested in returning #1 to its former self, up to an including using a top tee, converting back to a par 5 and reclaiming back part of the driving range? I think it would need to keep the trees separating the 1st and 9th holes, but the rest could be put back in place it seems.
Kalen:
I'm the one who converted the 1st hole to a par-4 by abandoning the "top tee". My logic was that the top tee wasn't original ... MacKenzie's first tee was further left toward the driving range, and only 470 yards, which in olden days made it a par-5. But the "top tee" which had been added later was a liability nightmare in its own right; anytime it was being used, you were firing over the heads of people going back and forth from the pro shop to the range.
Also, it's in their bylaws that anything they build on the course now must be restorative in nature ... i.e. they don't have to restore everything, but they can't make a change that isn't a restoration to the original design.
I did once suggest that they abandon the range altogether and utilize that whole area for the first hole as it had been originally. They didn't go for it, and I doubt they ever will.
P.S. to Tim Fenchel: With the out-of-bounds left for the driving range, and people's natural tendency to slice, removing the trees from the right side of the first hole would likely result in a lawsuit within the first month. I hate when design comes to that ... but when you're in California where people sue over every little thing, you have to consider it. Perhaps now that Jim Urbina is their consultant, he can take down all the trees ...
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Tom,
Thanks for the clarification on the 1st hole. Sounds like it was indeed a very calculated and well reasoned move in light of all the issues they have to deal with (California considerations especially)...as opposed to something along the lines of blatant mayhem.
P.S. Was there any discussion in putting the right hand fairway bunker back on #1?..not that it needs it...its already a very stern opener as is.
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I would agree with Kalen on the other exceptionally good (if not world-class) holes, with two modifications. Given the absurd green on #8, I would not put it in the good category, but I would add #17 as a very good hole.
Also, while I wouldn't rave about the 1st hole, I don't find it to be anywhere near as bad as John says. It's a nice way to start a good course.
Pasatiempo is a very good golf course--maybe not in the top 25 in the world, but close. Many memorable holes--and very fun to play.