Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture Discussion Group => Topic started by: Frank Giordano on October 16, 2015, 08:59:31 PM
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Jim Justice, owner of The Greenbrier, has brought Jack Nicklaus, Arnold Palmer, Gary Player, and Lee Trevino together, to design his new mountaintop championship course at the West Virginia resort. It's over 8000 yards! We all knew an 8,000 yarder was coming, and we can't be surprised at who's designing it. But ... why? And where will the madness end?
see link: http://garyplayer.com/news/news_detail/jim_justice_brings_together_four_golf_legends_to_break_ground_on_new_course/
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The Pete Dye course in French Lick is over 8000 yards and I think The International Pines course in Massachusetts was the first one over 8000 as early as the late 60s.
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Antler Creek in Colorado is over 8100 yards, and it was built back in the late 90's.
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Wasn't one of Gary Player's vocal criticisms of Chambers Bay that it was too long and that architects must stop building courses that are too difficult for average golfers ??
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Wasn't one of Gary Player's vocal criticisms of Chambers Bay that it was too long and that architects must stop building courses that are too difficult for average golfers ??
But then the check cleared.
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Wasn't one of Gary Player's vocal criticisms of Chambers Bay that it was too long and that architects must stop building courses that are too difficult for average golfers ??
And Chambers looks like it plays shorter than the yardage because of the firmness too!
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Lee Trevino on the new course at Greenbriar. Note the course will be on ridge of the mountain with many downhill shots and at 2000' elevation.
http://www.golfchannel.com/media/lee-trevino-i-am-learning-lot-these-guys/
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An 8,000 yd course can shorten half the holes on any given day by 100 yds each and be 7,100 yds. It is a tool for diversity. I love Pete Dye French Lick for this very reason. Every hole can be whatever it wants to be on any given day without the entire course being unplayable.
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An 8,000 yd course can shorten half the holes on any given day by 100 yds each and be 7,100 yds. It is a tool for diversity. I love Pete Dye French Lick for this very reason. Every hole can be whatever it wants to be on any given day without the entire course being unplayable.
True enough, and a point worth remembering. But from a practical standpoint: will those who might vacation at the Greenbrier (the wealthy) and who might remember the Big Four (the old) and who would never consider playing except in a cart (the casual and/or feeble golfer) be the type of old,wealthy, casual golfers who would in any way be impressed (or even depressed) by the idea of 8,000 yard course? A tool for diversity it may be, but I'm guessing that as a number it means more to us here than to anyone else, and that as a marketing tool it will mean next to nothing to those in the intended/target market.
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Most golfers have rooms in their homes they don't use, why not a few tees? I've never owned a home where I was allowed to use each of the bathrooms but that doesn't cause me to dispute my sewer bill.
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I thought that Erin Hills has a set of tees over 8000 yards and that the owner wanted to have the first
U.S. Open at that distance.
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won't let you forget Sevilano Links in California which can have 18 par 5s.
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If it will play downhill most of the way I would not expect it would be a tough walk green to tee.
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Wasn't one of Gary Player's vocal criticisms of Chambers Bay that it was too long and that architects must stop building courses that are too difficult for average golfers ??
http://www.sbnation.com/golf/2015/6/20/8818415/gary-player-rips-chambers-bay-video-us-open-2015
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I'd be much more enthused about a thread labeled "America's Last 8,000 yard golf course?"
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I'd be much more enthused about a thread labeled "America's Last 8,000 yard golf course?"
I'd be even more enthused about one labeled "The First Golf Course Ideally Suited Specifically to Peter P's Game".
I keep waiting, but maybe I need to just go out and design it myself.
Why not? That approach has worked out for Tom D well enough! :)
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I thought some of the Jones Trail courses were stretchable to 8000, and that they were even playing some Nationwide/Nike/Hogan events there at 7700/7800 yards around 2000.
But that's based on memory -- so take that for what it's worth.
Though maybe those were tees that we're on the card.
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I'd be much more enthused about a thread labeled "America's Last 8,000 yard golf course?"
There will be one in 50 years lamenting the loss of the 8000 yard executive courses....
Those who do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it.
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If someone doesn't like the idea of an 8000 yard course just don't play it. It's such a simple concept.
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Jug McSpaden built his Dubsdread course here in Kansas more than 50 years ago at 8,000 yards.
It's been shortened to about 7200 yards more recently.
K
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If someone doesn't like the idea of an 8000 yard course just don't play it. It's such a simple concept.
+1.
I'm looking forward to the first 9,000 yard course. Those authoritarians will be outraged. :-* :-*
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I thought that Erin Hills has a set of tees over 8000 yards and that the owner wanted to have the first
U.S. Open at that distance.
The black tees are 7,812 on the card but I believe that doesn't include some further tees that push it past 8,000.
http://www.erinhills.com/erin_hills_golf_score_card_2.aspx (http://www.erinhills.com/erin_hills_golf_score_card_2.aspx)
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Before you get on your high horse about 8k yard courses, note that on a historical, apples to apples basis, 8K is not very long for the pros. It is roughly equivalent to a 6400 yard course in 1930. As Bob Jones did in his day, an 8K course will force today's pros to hit middle and long irons into some par 4's. Heaven forbid.
In the meantime, the rest of us can use forward tees.
Bob
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Who cares? Like the monster SUV (Stupid User Vehicle) craze, there will always be those who only look at the length. I'll take a course that is well thought out and has a mix of challenges aside from the 'grab your driver and then your three wood' on every hole. Kinda tough to have some tricky short holes and a short three with great shot value when you have to have 8000 yards. Just my two cents.
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One thing that bothers me about many people with a voice today is that in my youth when I could hit the bar long and far I do not recall a single gentleman who wished I was playing the same up tee as he. It seemed as though those who came before me admired the bigger homes, cars and breasts so enjoyed by the youth of the day. What happened where we now want our children to no longer be the best, for every child to be equal, for the grass to not only be greener on the other side of the fence but just greener damn the cost. I hope my children play 9,000 yard courses while living in 9,000 square foot homes while getting 9 miles to the gallon. That and 9% cheap beer sounds like a sweet future.
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Let's do a thought experiment. let's play a PGA tour field event at 8,000 actual yards and see what happens. Would be interesting to see what people think. 7300 ish with a few tees up. I really wanna see scores at 8,000 yards. Doesn't really matter how firm it is at that length, I don't think.
4 par threes averaging 225
10 par fours averaging 470
4 par fives averaging 600
This totals 8000 yards.
30 yard fairways. 4 inch rough. Greens at 12. Similar green complex difficulty to a high quality tour course like Muirfield Village or Sawgrass.
What would the scoring average and winning score be?
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Two of the RTJ trail golf courses Ross Bridges and Shoals are both over 8,000 yards. Actually one of them is close to 8,200 yards.
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One thing that bothers me about many people with a voice today is that in my youth when I could hit the bar long and far I do not recall a single gentleman who wished I was playing the same up tee as he. It seemed as though those who came before me admired the bigger homes, cars and breasts so enjoyed by the youth of the day. What happened where we now want our children to no longer be the best, for every child to be equal, for the grass to not only be greener on the other side of the fence but just greener damn the cost. I hope my children play 9,000 yard courses while living in 9,000 square foot homes while getting 9 miles to the gallon. That and 9% cheap beer sounds like a sweet future.
AGREED!
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Mike Trenham suggests that if Justice's course plays mostly downhill, it won't be a tough walk green to tee. I think Mike's got it backwards. Jack said there will be only 5 uphill shots. Assuming the course begins and ends in the same place (and I know of no course that doesn't), the walks from greens to tees must be brutally uphill, and brutally long. How else can you return to where you started with a 2,000' elevation change and only 5 uphill shots?
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Mike Trenham suggests that if Justice's course plays mostly downhill, it won't be a tough walk green to tee. I think Mike's got it backwards. Jack said there will be only 5 uphill shots. Assuming the course begins and ends in the same place (and I know of no course that doesn't), the walks from greens to tees must be brutally uphill, and brutally long. How else can you return to where you started with a 2,000' elevation change and only 5 uphill shots?
I wouldn't hold out much hope of it being a walking course
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Justice's marching orders are to build him a course to host the U.S. Open. The Donald Trump of W.V.?
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Golf Advisor has an recent article on 8,000+ yard courses: http://www.golfadvisor.com/articles/10-longest-golf-courses-15488.htm (http://www.golfadvisor.com/articles/10-longest-golf-courses-15488.htm)
Some have already been mentioned...
International Golf Club - Pines Course, Bolton, Mass.
8,325 yards, par 73
Robert Trent Jones Golf Trail at Ross Bridge, Hoover, Ala.
8,191 yards, par 72
Antler Creek Golf Course, Peyton, Colo.
8,114 yards, par 72
French Lick Resort, Dye Course, French Lick, Ind.
8,102 yards, par 72
Promontory Club, Painted Valley, Park City, Utah
8,098 yards, par 72
Shoals Golf Club, Fighting Joe, Muscle Shoals, Ala.
8,092 yards, par 72
Prairie Club, Dunes Course, Valentine, Neb.
8,058 yards, par 72
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I thought that Erin Hills has a set of tees over 8000 yards and that the owner wanted to have the first
U.S. Open at that distance.
The black tees are 7,812 on the card but I believe that doesn't include some further tees that push it past 8,000.
http://www.erinhills.com/erin_hills_golf_score_card_2.aspx (http://www.erinhills.com/erin_hills_golf_score_card_2.aspx)
At one point in time they had a set of tees called the back black which took the course over 8,000. 8,400 when they had 19 holes in play.
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What is outrageous about 8k+ yard golf courses is not that they are 8K+ yards; it's that for pros and top tier college players such courses are not 'long' in any relevant historical sense.
The real outrage is balls and equipment. As long as nothing is done about them, 9K courses are just around the corner.
Bob
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One thing that bothers me about many people with a voice today is that in my youth when I could hit the bar long and far I do not recall a single gentleman who wished I was playing the same up tee as he. It seemed as though those who came before me admired the bigger homes, cars and breasts so enjoyed by the youth of the day. What happened where we now want our children to no longer be the best, for every child to be equal, for the grass to not only be greener on the other side of the fence but just greener damn the cost. I hope my children play 9,000 yard courses while living in 9,000 square foot homes while getting 9 miles to the gallon. That and 9% cheap beer sounds like a sweet future.
This is great. With all the chatter of short courses, I hope to play a 9,000 yard course in my lifetime.
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Mike Trenham suggests that if Justice's course plays mostly downhill, it won't be a tough walk green to tee. I think Mike's got it backwards. Jack said there will be only 5 uphill shots. Assuming the course begins and ends in the same place (and I know of no course that doesn't), the walks from greens to tees must be brutally uphill, and brutally long. How else can you return to where you started with a 2,000' elevation change and only 5 uphill shots?
This assumes people will walk this course. Sounds like gas cartgolf to me...
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Mike Trenham suggests that if Justice's course plays mostly downhill, it won't be a tough walk green to tee. I think Mike's got it backwards. Jack said there will be only 5 uphill shots.
Any course I've ever played where you predominantly played downhill........you walked UPHILL to get the next
view(errr..tee)
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18-holes over 8,000 yds, what a distinctly unpleasant thought.
Atb
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Hitting 150 yard drives is an unpleasant thought to me.
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Hi Mr. Kavanaugh and others,
The problems with 8000 yard courses:
1. In the West, where water is at a premium, this is a political no go, and really risks what little good will the general public already has towards the game for absolutely no reason at all.
2. Same applies, less drastically, to other parts of the country and to the world.
3. Exacerbates exactly the same tendencies in design that most people (I think) on this site are against: length for the sake of length, focus on the low-handicap player rather than the average, and finally—most importantly—increases in the time per round. These are all tendencies contrary to the continued existence of the game.
Does that about sum it up?
Joe
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Joe,
1. I don't play golf west of St Louis. 2ndly the Golf courses out in Arizona I believe can only manage X amount of turf. They are in a Desert. The back tee can be an island and one can still play hole w putter.
2. Water is an issue in 4 or 5 states. I hope Michigan gets the first 9,000 yard course for we have abundant of water and sand! You are also presuming that we are for irrigated fairways. Don't assume.
3. I'm against Group Think and Authoritarian ideology. You are presuming that the 9,000 yard course will lack Strategic, Heroic, and a little Penal Architecture, Don't presume. Only .5-2% would probably play from back there, this ideology that long courses take longer is hogwash. I play a 7,000 yard course in 3 hours all the time. I've played 5 hr rounds on 5900 yard courses. ''These are all tendencies contrary to the continued existence of the game''- That is your (Groups) opinion on here. The course is fine, its the other nonsense that is bringing it down.
Did I enlighten you?
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Hi Ben,
How can something be “your opinion” and “groupthink” at the same time?
Let me know when you can explain it.
:)
Joe
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Mr Lane,
Real simple, ''Your opinion'' is in line with ''Group think'' ;D 8) ;)
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2. Water is an issue in 4 or 5 states. I hope Michigan gets the first 9,000 yard course for we have abundant of water and sand! You are also presuming that we are for irrigated fairways. Don't assume.
Did I enlighten you?
Ben:
No, you didn't. Water use on golf courses is an issue in about 25-30 states today. It's an issue in Minnesota! Give it another 5-10 years and it will be an issue in all 50 states.
If you don't irrigate your fairways, your 9000-yard course will be just fine ... although the firm fairways will make it play considerably shorter.
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Hi Ben,
Your hilariously bad attempt at humor—I’d suggest that you stick with the “pull my finger” variety with which you are so obviously familiar—is also a logical failure. You’re trying to impugn my opinion on the implicit premise that it is invalid because it is not shared with anyone else—“your opinion”—but also that it is shared by everyone else—“groupthink.” What you’re saying, in other words, is kind of like politely telling you to perform an anatomical impossibility.
But doing that would be kind of rude, and not really that funny.
;)
Joe
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2. Water is an issue in 4 or 5 states. I hope Michigan gets the first 9,000 yard course for we have abundant of water and sand! You are also presuming that we are for irrigated fairways. Don't assume.
Did I enlighten you?
Ben:
No, you didn't. Water use on golf courses is an issue in about 25-30 states today. It's an issue in Minnesota! Give it another 5-10 years and it will be an issue in all 50 states.
If you don't irrigate your fairways, your 9000-yard course will be just fine ... although the firm fairways will make it play considerably shorter.
Tom,
I got the 4-5 states from a friend in the golf industry. Minnesota doesn't make sense they have 10,000 lakes?
Yes, non irrigated fairways will play shorter. That was something I assumed people would get on here, not to judge by numbers but how something play w regards to elevation. Why Dr Mack courses play longer then scorecard I've found.
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I like to play a course around 6000 yards. Can I get a 25% discount on my greens fee?
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Pete,
Why of course. Craft beer is 9% off too, the good stuff. Joe and Tom can join us.
Joe,
I'm joking with you. I'm an amatuer.
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International Golf Club - Pines Course, Bolton, Mass.
8,325 yards, par 73
It is a bit stunning to me that this is still the longest course and it is almost 50 years old. Granted the 8000 yard tees were more of a joke when it was built, but still. How long would a course have to be now to provide a similar challenge (similar clubs into the green) in 2016 than this did in 1969? Maybe 9500 yards?
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The notion that 9,000-yard (heck, even 8,000-yard) courses are realistic as near-future venues for professional golf is absurd, unless there is a staggering jump in average driving distances, which have been fairly flat for about a decade now. Actual data seems to point to a conclusion that players are hitting their clubs about as far as they're capable of. I guess all bets are off if the USGA lifts the ban on Iron Man super-suits and rocket-propelled ProV1s...
Until then, all talk about runaway course yardages will mysteriously die down when the Tour goes through Harbor Town and Hartford.
The gaudy total back tee yardage number is mainly a marketing strategy, and Jim Justice has succeeded, based on the way this thread has gone so far. But secondarily, if/when the course does host a championship, those in charge of setup will be able to have different holes play at different yardages on different days. I thought that was the cool thing these days, no?
But anyway, the best thing about that article: the photo of the ceremonial groundbreaking. Look at the massive piles of dirt on Palmer, Player and Nicklaus' shovels! They're still competing with each other to this day. Amazing, telling shot.
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Seems to me that 8000 yard courses make the most sense in the desert.
Consider a typical 7000 yard course layout. To get to 8000, you only need on average an extra 55 yards per hole.
So on all 18 holes, this only really requires a back tee on each hole, as top notch players could still reach the fairways. A small infrequently used tee would seems to add relatively little cost in relation to other solutions. The par 5s, you could go 60-70 yards back while on the par 3s, go 30-40 yards back. Seems doable given the space is available at a relative minimum of expense.
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One thing that bothers me about many people with a voice today is that in my youth when I could hit the bar long and far I do not recall a single gentleman who wished I was playing the same up tee as he. It seemed as though those who came before me admired the bigger homes, cars and breasts so enjoyed by the youth of the day. What happened where we now want our children to no longer be the best, for every child to be equal, for the grass to not only be greener on the other side of the fence but just greener damn the cost. I hope my children play 9,000 yard courses while living in 9,000 square foot homes while getting 9 miles to the gallon. That and 9% cheap beer sounds like a sweet future.
John,
Is it time to get started on the 9,000 yard course?
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Nice to see all these courses following the prescient lead of "The International" in Bolton, MA, which was obviously well ahead of its time when it was built in 1954. Who knew Geoffrey Cornish was not only a wonderful gentleman but also a prophet? ::)
I'm being slightly facetious, but Bob Crosby is correct that the real sin isn't the length of courses that now need to be built to effectively contain the modern game but the failure of the governing bodies to effectively contain technology.