Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture Discussion Group => Topic started by: RSantangelo on September 24, 2015, 11:01:19 PM
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Folks
Hello everyone. I am new to the board and am pleased to be here. I had the good fortune top find Golf Club Atlas about 6 months ago and have thoroughly enjoyed and benefited from the wonderful content. Thanks to you all.
I had the opportunity to play Shinnecock today for the second time and it was a blast. A few observations and questions for the group.
1. A lot of fun...no other way to describe it...we need more golf like this...thanks to Tom and other architects that are designing great courses again today
2. Photos of 1896 Open - didn't look closely enough last time...worth the time if you are there....a bunch of these were shot right where the 9th hole (current) finishes ...noticeable the sandy/grass mixture in the rough where they posed...always interesting to see from where the game came and how much it has changed....that sandy feel of Pinehurst 2 post the restoration
3. Back Nine - I was so absorbed last time I didn't notice how different the back and front feel, and would probably put 9 in that camp also....the back was so memorable I can pretty much effortlessly recall each hole/shot...really a thrill...and a shout out to #10 and #11...I was long last time (so I had my turn) and watching the my pal wrestle with the predicament today...its just amazing to watch what short grass, elevation change and speed can do
Question: Topdressing the fairways - they were topdressing the fairways...our caddy told us they do it every three weeks...I was curious why that does not seem to be more common if it aids in keeping course...any thoughts on the practice?
Question: what are your favorite holes and why?
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Question: Topdressing the fairways - they were topdressing the fairways...our caddy told us they do it every three weeks...I was curious why that does not seem to be more common if it aids in keeping course...any thoughts on the practice?
Topdressing fairways is a great practice, but it's pretty expensive ... if you put an inch of sand per year onto 36 acres of fairways, that would be 5000 cubic yards or 7,000 tons of sand [which might cost anywhere from $10 to $50 a ton, depending on where you're at]. And that's not including the labor or machinery to spread it. Obviously, not every club can afford that.
As for favorite holes at Shinnecock, the two that fit my eye best [and are not as often discussed] are the 12th and 16th. I just love the look of the tee shot at the 12th, and the left side hole location on that green is something else!
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Is 36 acres of fairway about what Shinnecock has?
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I think 14 is my favorite hole. It just seems so natural from the tee.
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I think 14 is my favorite hole. It just seems so natural from the tee.
And the newly expanded green makes for a pretty cool new pin position!
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Is 36 acres of fairway about what Shinnecock has?
I don't know the real number; I was going to use 35, but then I realized one inch over 36 acres is the same as three feet over one acre, which made the rest of the math pretty easy.
I would guess that 36 acres is not that far off, once the fairways were widened back out after the last U.S. Open.
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Folks
1. A lot of fun...no other way to describe it...we need more golf like this...thanks to Tom and other architects that are designing great courses again today
Question: what are your favorite holes and why?
Shinny is fun but I find it enormously hard. Its a rare quality but the more you play it, the less fun it becomes.
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Is 36 acres of fairway about what Shinnecock has?
I don't know the real number; I was going to use 35, but then I realized one inch over 36 acres is the same as three feet over one acre, which made the rest of the math pretty easy.
I would guess that 36 acres is not that far off, once the fairways were widened back out after the last U.S. Open.
Thanks, I had no idea what the acreage may be .
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Shinny is fun but I find it enormously hard. Its a rare quality but the more you play it, the less fun it becomes.
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It's a funny thing, I can see what you are saying
I think there is a difference between stroke and match play....in stroke play, I got to the end and my score wasn't great even though i hit it pretty well on the last 10-11 holes....so that is frustrating....but I tend to focus on match play when I get to play these courses with a good group, maybe it's an admission that I don't expect to score terribly well...anyway, from a match play standpoint, the holes are fun to compete on...for instance, I was long on 10 last time, so I knew when My opponents went long, I just needed to avoid there fate and I should win the hole...sure enough, one failed to get it back up the hill and it came back to his feet.... and the other hit it off the front of the green...great match play stuff
But I can see how, when you play it all the time, you want to card a good score and it can grind on you
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There's not a weak hole on the golf course.
Favorite 3 = 11
Favorite 4 = 9
Favorite 5 = 16
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There's not a weak hole on the golf course.
Favorite 3 = 11
Favorite 4 = 9
Favorite 5 = 16
I agree with the MIC(Moron in Chief) on these picks although for par fours I could substitute 10 or 18.
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The constant top dressing is done to firm up the course as much as possible before the '18 Open. Shinny is several strokes harder because of it but, IMO, also more enjoyable to play. I believe Shinny is now the best medal play tournament course anywhere. And I find it at least equal to the three (PV , CP & ANGC) ranked above it in the new Golf Mag. rankings.
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But is harder necessarily better Mr. J?
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The constant top dressing is done to firm up the course as much as possible before the '18 Open. Shinny is several strokes harder because of it but, IMO, also more enjoyable to play. I believe Shinny is now the best medal play tournament course anywhere. And I find it at least equal to the three (PV , CP & ANGC) ranked above it in the new Golf Mag. rankings.
Well if Shinnecock is "the best medal play tournament course in the world"
perhaps they could play the course that's there and has been there, not the absolute shite presentation they played in 2004.Though we did find out Retief was the best at the obligatory 15 footers for par that were faced by the entire field all day.
Pity really with all that work bastardizing a great course that year, there's a mini golf just down the road that could've settled it more conveniently.
I do wonder what makes a course BEST at medal play
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It is also too bad that they feel the need to move so many tees back. The daily player who plays the back tees will not recognize many of the holes.
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Sunday's debacle in '04 was the USGA's fault. They didn't water Sat. evening after a dry norther had come in, which ruined the playability. I consider it the best medal play tournament course because one uses every club multiple ways from every wind angle, and no holes are unfair. It's all in front of you. Greg Norman calls it the holy grail of golf, and Johnny Miller opines that the US Open should be alternated between Shinny & Pebble. Both Ray Floyd and Tom Lehman name it for the last round they'd play. And it is the highest ranked course on the Open rota. Having played hundreds of rounds there, I'm more convinced of its greatness each passing year.
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It is also too bad that they feel the need to move so many tees back. The daily player who plays the back tees will not recognize many of the holes.
If they(USGA) are not going to adjust the ball/superdriversCOR, moving the tees back is the closest thing to reasonable.
Daily players don't sniff the game these guys play and shouldn't recognize the holes as they play them.
Shame that a lack of bifurcation (or better yet regulation) in equipment has resulted in bifurcation of courses.
Killing the greens in 2004 merely made it impossible to distinguish good approaches from bad, as well as recoveries.
Found out who the best putter was though.
jkinney
agreed
I think it's a fantastic course
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The new US Open tees play to the same line as those in front of them. From the back they total 7500 yds. par 70, and are intended for the tour players. Some of the carries are in the 280 yd. range. There is nothing gimmicky about them, and they blend in beautifully with the existing architecture.. Rory McElroy played them in '14 shooting 5 under. Members of the club walk back to them to marvel at the carries and have no trouble at all recognizing the holes. These tees merely account for the increased driving distance attained by tour players since '04 and by no means change the character of the holes.
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Is the 5th tee going to be on the opposite side of the 18th tee?
I'm doing some calculations. Most of the distance between the 2018 US Open tees and the red tees will be on the front 9. Only 14, 16 and 18 will play much longer on the back. On the front, 2,3,4,5,6,8, and 9 will each be at least 30 yds behind the reds, some like 4 and possibly 5 much longer.
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The new US Open tees play to the same line as those in front of them. From the back they total 7500 yds. par 70, and are intended for the tour players. Some of the carries are in the 280 yd. range. There is nothing gimmicky about them, and they blend in beautifully with the existing architecture.. Rory McElroy played them in '14 shooting 5 under. Members of the club walk back to them to marvel at the carries and have no trouble at all recognizing the holes. These tees merely account for the increased driving distance attained by tour players since '04 and by no means change the character of the holes.
JKinney,
I love Shinnecock, and just wish they would do something with the ball rather than the course, The tee on 4 is unrecognizable as is 16, I also do not love crossover on 5. Again, I love Shinnecock and would rather just see how the pros play from the regular tees.
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We'll agree to disagree. I find the tees on both 4 & 16 easily recognizable as compatible with the hole design. The equipment issue is entirely is another matter altogether.
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JKinney,
I meant more unrecognizable to those who play there a few times and watch the US Open. Again, it is one of the greatest courses in the world, and I wish we could just see it played as close to its daily brilliance as possible.
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I haven't been to Shinnecock in a number of years but my understanding is that the course recently underwent a significant "restoration" of fairway widths, green sizes, bunker shapes, and recovery of sandy waste areas, all fairly consistent (except for added back tees) with William Flynn's original plans.
What can anyone here share about the details? Thanks!
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The big changes are to 5 and 6. The addition of the sandy areas on both holes (this was done under Coore Crenshaw supervision), the removal of the "catcher's mitt" bunker on the left side of 5 green, the addition of the big bunker short and right of 6 green, adding sand on 8 between the tee and fairway, improving the fairway bunkers on 8, lots of tree removal and green expansion. The big tree removal include right of 10 green, right of 15 fairway (remember all the trees there) to open up the vista, removal of trees on 6 fairway right (to allow view up to National), and 3 fairway left. Also lots of work shaving off areas around greens, namely left of the 5th green. There was some tightening of fairways last winter (12 + 13).
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JKinney,
Shinnecock is one of those rare courses where you could hold a Mixed Member Guest on Tuesday and a US Open on Thursday with little in the way of alterations/preparations.
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Question: what are your favorite holes and why?
9 and 10.
As cool and fun as two holes can be.
As to the rest, JKinney has certainly provided plenty of insight. I was there 6 or 8 weeks ago and would agree with much of what he has said...although agreeing with others sentiment that I wish they didn't extend the tees so far back. Reality is they will not use the full extent of the course one time during the tournament. My biggest pet peeve about Mike Davis' set up routing is that you can see tees behind the one the players are on several times in each round.
Wider fairways...cool, sandy waste areas instead of thicker fescue and tremendous green expansions with loads of short grass around a great percentage of them.
The best medal play course for me because every shot is good and lets you take on as much challenge as you want...but virtually none of them are do or die. Pine Valley is sort of an opposite this way. Every shot is good and fun, but most have a significant opportunity for death. Especially if you really want to take on an edge (fairway or green). Best match play course in my view.
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Jim,
Then your view must not extend to the adjacent course, NGLA
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Haven't been there...have only heard great things!
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Was lucky enough to play it last Wednesday 9/30 for the first time.
Was really surprised to see the fairway widths-I thought they would be much narrower. According to our caddie, the USGA is going to keep the fairways wide-They want bomb and gouge!
I think the course is very playable and a lot of fun to play. The green complexes are just so interesting. You can hit the ball really well tee to green and not score worth a damn if your short game is not absolutely a solid "A"
I think the par 3's make the course. 11 green took my breath away. 9, the uphill par 4, was incredible-my favorite hole on the course (maybe because I had a kick in birdie into a 20 MPH wind).
18 just looked totally different from the tee...we must have been playing from a different tee, the angle just seemed off from what I recall from the last open.
It was everything I expected it to be. Off topic, but quite honestly I have played few top 100 clubs where I felt as welcomed as I did at Shinnecock Hills.
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Sunday's debacle in '04 was the USGA's fault. They didn't water Sat. evening after a dry norther had come in, which ruined the playability.
That's revisionist history.
Every hole was birdied by someone, so how was the playability ruined?
The debacle was the field's. All but two couldn't cope with the demands placed on them. Likely because they are so pampered week in, week out, but, also because they used equipment ill-suited for that specific task.
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Adam, do you have any idea what the scoring average was on Sunday in 04 before they started watering it? If memory serves, it was somewhere around double. The USGA should be thanking their lucky stars that the course has only 1 green that severe.
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Steve, Didn't they begin watering the 7th green fairly early? After the first few groups? I do recall the first group out. The loudest complaining player had hit it to relatively easy birdie range, and putted into the bunker, and took some astronomical number, which I assume skews the stats you're using to make your point. He complained he hit a spike mark. First group out and there's a spike mark? Highly unlikely. And his score? Self induced for not using his head and taking an unplayable. He should not have made worse than 5, but likely would've made it for four, as he had already seen the putt. But all this is ignoring that he hit it to that spot, and it stopped there. So where's the evidence of unplayable?
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Adam, I would contend that a professional golfer should never do worse than 3 putts when facing a makeable putt. Unless this player made an unconscionably bad putt, I put more blame on the green. Also, there were plenty of other problems on the hole. Adam, I don't have a problem with players not being able to hit a par 3 in 1 shot but there's a problem if pros have trouble putting it on in 2. Just my thoughts.
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Steve, Didn't they begin watering the 7th green fairly early? After the first few groups? I do recall the first group out. The loudest complaining player had hit it to relatively easy birdie range, and putted into the bunker, and took some astronomical number, which I assume skews the stats you're using to make your point. He complained he hit a spike mark. First group out and there's a spike mark? Highly unlikely. And his score? Self induced for not using his head and taking an unplayable. He should not have made worse than 5, but likely would've made it for four, as he had already seen the putt. But all this is ignoring that he hit it to that spot, and it stopped there. So where's the evidence of unplayable?
Adam,
a player making a birdie does not make a hole "playable"
the hole will always stop the ball, but a situation where an uphill putt can be lagged up to the hole and then roll back off the green is unplayable.
I was standing there watching the debacle.
The debacle was the "field's"?
seriously?-70 of the best players in the world, in good enough form to make the cut, suddenly lost their ability to play golf?
It was a putting event-nobody put it on the greens on Sunday
7? simply a joke.
I'm all for firm and fast, and the course was already there, with a very dry windy forecast for Sat night and Sunday.
Would a worse player have been identified as champion if the greens had been allowed to survive that night with just a bit of water?
the setup the entire week was a confused joke-
ranging from planting and growing stringy bright green rough right off the fairway, to cutting back the native bluestem, to baking the fairways into runways, and the greens into browns-doing an enormous disservice to the membership who was left to pick up the pieces.
Watching Nick Faldo, who is no bomber, hit a 3 iron with 70 yards of roll off the tee on 6, then a wedge was odd to say the least.
Shinnecock is a great course-hopefully they let them play it in '18.
Sounds like they're off to a good start with width in the fairways-which if nothing else means the members/leadership won't be tempted to pull a "Bethpage" and keep the fairways stupidly narrow after the event
I am curious what equipment(that would have been less ill suited) should they have been using ;) ? ;D
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If the U.S. Open can be played on a soaking wet Bethpage Black, what's so wrong with testing the best, on the other end of the spectrum? Shinneythingy in '04 was not beyond the brink. In fact, it was an extremely exciting championship, and the membership didn't suffer one iota from any loss of turf. People played the course the very next day. I still remember how the peanut gallery called the grass dead. O also remember what TePaul said about the setup before the tournament started. Words to the affect of "if just one pro has to aim away from the hole to make their lowest score possible, the set up will be perfect." (again I'm paraphrasing) Also, I had a personal exchange with Marty Parks immediately following Sunday's round. He was the usga communications director at the time. We both agreed on what a great championship it was. It wasn't until all the bellyaching began to come out that this exciting championship became a debacle. Heck, we even had some blow hard come on here and rant and rave, and threatened to do something about it. Apparently he did.
Steve, I don't feel the same about expectations on the number of putts. If you make a bad putt, it's cost shouldn't have limited liability.
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If the U.S. Open can be played on a soaking wet Bethpage Black, what's so wrong with testing the best, on the other end of the spectrum? Shinneythingy in '04 was not beyond the brink. In fact, it was an extremely exciting championship, and the membership didn't suffer one iota from any loss of turf. People played the course the very next day. I still remember how the peanut gallery called the grass dead. O also remember what TePaul said about the setup before the tournament started. Words to the affect of "if just one pro has to aim away from the hole to make their lowest score possible, the set up will be perfect." (again I'm paraphrasing) Also, I had a personal exchange with Marty Parks immediately following Sunday's round. He was the usga communications director at the time. We both agreed on what a great championship it was. It wasn't until all the bellyaching began to come out that this exciting championship became a debacle. Heck, we even had some blow hard come on here and rant and rave, and threatened to do something about it. Apparently he did.
Steve, I don't feel the same about expectations on the number of putts. If you make a bad putt, it's cost shouldn't have limited liability.
Adam,
I agree with you that anyone could 4 or even 5 putt a hole-it happens and I have no issue with bad play or a course on the edge and/or severe pins.
Shinny was over the edge on Sunday-it strikes me as odd that you deny that-even the USGA admits that.
That would be why they were watering the 7th green.
Going over the edge is not the end of the world-it's how one knows where the edge is ;) ;D
If they had run the sprinklers all night at Bethpage to create the wet conditions, I would agree with you.
Bethpage sucked that year, but it was not a condition created by the setup staff but rather too much rain.
I am stunned that the Director of Communications for the USGA agreed what a great championship it was ;D
Shocker.
It was an exciting Championship but then so was Valhalla in 2014 and 2000 so let's not credit the setup or even the course for an exciting tournament.
Was he the same guy who communicated to us from 1995-2005 that the distance gains in the ball and club were statistically irrelevant?
Shinny's a great course-it's clear to me from the proposed 2018 setup that the USGA learned from 2004 and the pros will see a better setup.
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Sunday's debacle in '04 was the USGA's fault. They didn't water Sat. evening after a dry norther had come in, which ruined the playability.
That's revisionist history.
Every hole was birdied by someone, so how was the playability ruined?
The debacle was the field's. All but two couldn't cope with the demands placed on them. Likely because they are so pampered week in, week out, but, also because they used equipment ill-suited for that specific task.
Adam - I was the club photographer for the '04 Open, inside the ropes. You may disagree with my interpretation, but I find it insulting to have an insider's account called "revisionist history".
Late Saturday afternoon of the '04 Open around 6pm, I was walking back across the course towards National and noticed that no sprinklers were on. The course was already dry & hard due to the increasing low humidity NW wind that had blown in around noon. "What is the USGA doing ?", I thought to myself. At 7am Sunday, the USGA went out to set the hole placements and found one on the 7th where a ball could come to rest. About 3 hrs. later when the first groups came through, that was no longer the case. And there were other green complexes like the 3rd with the hole was cut front right where near perfect approach shots wouldn't stay on the green. On the 10th both Goosen & Els were no more than 70 yds. from the hole after their drives and both made bogey.
Why did it happen ? IMO, the USGA was frustrated by the lack of the normal SW trade wind (for which Flynn laid out his brilliant design) during the first 2 1/2 days (there was almost no wind from any direction), which left two many under par. And so the USGA overreacted, and for reasons unknown, downplayed (or didn't understand) the change in weather.
However, it is true that on Sunday two great players, Goosen & Michelson, held their nerve and scored splendidly (at least until Phil lost his concentration on the 17th). But had the course been properly watered Saturday evening, how many more would have been in the fray on the back nine ? Those of us on the inside were disgusted by the lack of watering which warped the sensibilities and subtleties of the course.
Having borne witness to Retief & Phil's battle down the stretch (they were in adjacent groups, and I was doing a series of 500 yd. sprints between the two), I state categorically that I can't imagine ever seeing again a display of cold blooded, nerveless putting such as Retief put on through the backside. He had 13 putts in total, as I recall.
It took a number of years before the members would consider having the USGA back. The course is a better one than in '04 for numerous reasons, and the mistakes of '04 won't be repeated. And remember, in Shinny's 3 Opens in the modern era ('86,'95 &'04),
only 3 players have had a 72 hole score under par.
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Late Saturday afternoon of the '04 Open around 6pm, I was walking back across the course towards National and noticed that no sprinklers were on. The course was already dry & hard due to the increasing low humidity NW wind that had blown in around noon. "What is the USGA doing ?", I thought to myself. At 7am Sunday, the USGA went out to set the hole placements and found one on the 7th where a ball could come to rest. About 3 hrs. later when the first groups came through, that was no longer the case. And there were other green complexes like the 3rd with the hole was cut front right where near perfect approach shots wouldn't stay on the green. On the 10th both Goosen & Els were no more than 70 yds. from the hole after their drives and both made bogey.
Jkinney, So, Stadler did not have a birdie putt on #7?
As an insider, do you know who had the keys to the pump house and where Mark was Saturday evening? Do you recall the forecast? Rain was in it. They watered on Friday night and Saturday's play reflected that. It was disappointing to a radical like me, but, Sunday was a treat.
You shouldn't be insulted because it's all opinion. I value the bounce and roll of the ball over the aggregate score achieved. And, for some strange reason I feel that in the sport of golf, adapting to the conditions of the day is paramount to identifying the best golfer. Not the best at hitting shots an exact distance with the secure knowledge it will stop within a few feet of that distance. As for the 10th, I believe ALL the pros were bombing it over the crest of the hill, leaving an awkward yardage. In other words, those guys are good, just not that smart.
Jeff, Over the edge is subjective, and I disagree it was over any pre-conceived edge. Can a course get over the edge within 36 hrs. of being watered?
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Late Saturday afternoon of the '04 Open around 6pm, I was walking back across the course towards National and noticed that no sprinklers were on. The course was already dry & hard due to the increasing low humidity NW wind that had blown in around noon. "What is the USGA doing ?", I thought to myself. At 7am Sunday, the USGA went out to set the hole placements and found one on the 7th where a ball could come to rest. About 3 hrs. later when the first groups came through, that was no longer the case. And there were other green complexes like the 3rd with the hole was cut front right where near perfect approach shots wouldn't stay on the green. On the 10th both Goosen & Els were no more than 70 yds. from the hole after their drives and both made bogey.
Jeff, Over the edge is subjective, and I disagree it was over any pre-conceived edge. Can a course get over the edge within 36 hrs. of being watered?
Evidently it can ;) ;D
I've heard a few other tales(from reliable sources) on why the greens were over the edge and they had nothing to do with simply withholding water.
But I'm with you, I value bounce and roll.
I just think there should be many ways to shoot a good score (for the day and conditions), and if it simply demands making a long par putt on every hole because no one can hit a green then it has been a difficult test, but not a complete test.
I love links golf, but this wasn't links golf, it was makeup (for three good weather days) contrived golf.
We were all disappointed the June winds didn't blow, but no need to invent ways to make it silly to simply hit a preconceived target score.
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The new US Open tees play to the same line as those in front of them. From the back they total 7500 yds. par 70, and are intended for the tour players. Some of the carries are in the 280 yd. range. There is nothing gimmicky about them, and they blend in beautifully with the existing architecture.. Rory McElroy played them in '14 shooting 5 under. Members of the club walk back to them to marvel at the carries and have no trouble at all recognizing the holes. These tees merely account for the increased driving distance attained by tour players since '04 and by no means change the character of the holes.
JKinney,
I love Shinnecock, and just wish they would do something with the ball rather than the course, The tee on 4 is unrecognizable as is 16, I also do not love crossover on 5. Again, I love Shinnecock and would rather just see how the pros play from the regular tees.
Guy's-Wasn't a new tee installed on 10 as well?