to simulate a manufactured design
My vote for best potential site...the lakeside Jackson Park / South Shore golf courses on the south side of Chicago!
How long did it take Ferry Point from idea to first tee shot?
Plus, this is Chicago. You'd need hand sanitizer on every tee to get the grease off the palms after the payoffs.
The story speaks of caddie scholarships. Jackson Park had a caddie program a few years back and at least one Evans was awarded. Judge Lavin may be able to enlighten us on the current state of the JP's caddie operation.
Given that there's a concept for 27 holes, and 27 exist now, I think it would be much ado about little gain. Why not improve Jackson Park's course, period?
There's one other problem. BMW wants to (and does) play every other year out of Chicago. And it doesn't want to play south of Madison Street. Ask the Jemseks at Cog Hill, and note that Olympia Fields was turned down.
Mike: The Chicago Park District has a contract with Billy Casper Golf to run all golf facilities through 2029. Looking at the condition of Waveland and the other courses my trust in their running a championship facility is very low.
"Mike Keiser said he believes that Tiger Woods (http://www.chicagotribune.com/topic/sports/golf/tiger-woods-PESPT008527-topic.html) is 'on board' to be the architect and might be willing to waive his design fee, given that the course would benefit The First Tee of Greater Chicago."
http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/golf/ct-tiger-woods-south-side-golf-greenstein-spt-0916-20160915-story.html (http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/golf/ct-tiger-woods-south-side-golf-greenstein-spt-0916-20160915-story.html)
I do like the fact that they are talking about building a short course as well as making the main course not overly difficult for the average golfer. The main hurdle will be getting people to actually risk their safety driving to and from the course.
The main hurdle will be getting people to actually risk their safety driving to and from the course.
The main hurdle will be getting people to actually risk their safety driving to and from the course.
James, please...
8) Its Chicago,... don't you know someone that can make it happen?
Another muni course? Shut it down! It's unfair!
Another muni course? Shut it down! It's unfair!
Reminds me of CNN's repetitive headlines that involve SNL mocking Trump. We get it.
My enthusiasm is tempered by the reality that is Chicago. Given the financial difficulties and otherwise is this the best use of $30 million?
I have seen the preliminary routing, which if I recall correctly, was prepared by Beau Welling. There is some really neat stuff going on there, and I am sure it will surface here at some point.
With regard to the other mechanics of getting it done, a few nuggets:
It will be interesting to see how they achieve balance with being a positive to the community, affordably serving the local market, extracting a premium from out-of-towners, and being a PGA Tour venue. They have smart people from the PGA, WGA/Evans Scholars and First Tee involved, among others, and initial signs seem to be encouraging.
There is a major difference between what happened with the Lucas Museum and this project that makes it more likely to happen. The Lucas project required repurposing of land, which is what got the community / friends of the park folks riled up. Although I am not a fan of how they seemed to have handled the situation (obstructionism vs. negotiation), the concerns were understandable. If they had studied George Lucas's dealings in the past, they might have learned that home boy responds poorly to chest thumping and legal challenges.
This project is fundamentally different. There is CPD property being used for golf now, and that property is being renovated for continued use for golf in the future. That makes the hurdles to clear lower, and is one of the reasons why more ambitious plans to fill in a portion of lake, or incorporate additional parcels of property, have been ditched. Doing so would have brought more players into the mix and complicated approvals.
The best-use-of-funds question is basically unanswerable conceptually because different groups and individuals have a near-infinite list of different opinions and priorities for what constitutes the greatest social good. In this case, that question is largely irrelevant because as I understand it, this project is not being paid for out of the city's general fund. The lead organizations (PGA, WGA, FToGC) and supportive individuals are partnering with the CPD under this new umbrella to raise money specifically for this project. Would the city be better off by fixing infrastructure or investing more in schools or public services? Perhaps so. But the question doesn't matter in relation to the priorities of the donors and/or supporting organizations. They want to put their money into this golf project, not those other things.
I could be wrong about the above, and our fair city has shown a certain genius for tainting or ruining good things. From what I know being privvy to some of the inner workings of this project though, there is reason to be excited if you care about golf in Chicago.
1. My dream is dead.
I would ask the Jemseks if they would be willing to build and operate a course on the site. If they felt there was a demand for such then it might make sense. Otherwise it's a PR joke.
The fact that Harborside is jammed every weekend at $100+ this course is going to do just fine charging $200 for non-residents and if resident rates are about $60, it will be packed.
The name of Tiger Woods combined with the allure of lakefront holes and skyline views is going to sell quite well.
Touchy, touchy...
Laurie Dann? That was almost 30 years ago, predating the time Butler National flooded, I think.
All I'm saying, Terry, is that it's a crappy, wastefully arrogant idea because if you're going to do something to actually help that neighborhood (as opposed to mugging for cameras, pretending to do as to curry favor in advance of the next mayoral election), there are a LOT of higher and better-use ways to do it that can be a lot more uplifting for the community than building a golf course for rich yuppies so they can save themselves the horrible inconvenience of driving an extra half an hour.
What a colossal waste of resources. $30mm? Plus the cost of the tunnels they need to build? I'll see their $30mm and raise them $40mm.
Have they learned nothing from the Rio waste of money that is about to close?
All so they can glorify the ego of a disgraced has-been who defrauded his way to the top ...
... and have Tiger Woods design the course, to boot!
Where's Tony Rezko when you need him?
I can't imagine people actually paying $200 to go to 67th and Stony Blvd. Frankly, most people would pay $300 to NOT go to 67th and Stony.
Epic fail coming here. Absolutely epic.
Because I think there are better ways to help a neighborhood than golf, I get ad hominems?
Have another...
Sounds like a classic "Sox vs. Cubs", "south side v. north side", "Indiana Dunes v. Lake Geneva", "Brother Rice v. Loyola" bunch of silliness....;-)
Paul,
I'm not kidding. I took a half hour and drove around the neighborhood. Looks very much like Evanston with a higher concentration of apartment buildings. It's surrounded by poverty, death and despair but the adjacent neighborhood is very fetching.
I took some great photos last night at sundown. However, I am an idiot and can't seem to figure out how to post them on the message board. If someone can email me at andy@friedegg.co (.co not com) I would be happy to send them along to be posted.
Maybe they'll get Michael Jordan to design their next basketball arena.
WW
Tim, I still wonder where the current golfers -- who pay $20 or $30 a round -- will go, after their green fees double or more?
https://www.google.com/amp/www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/breaking/ct-jackson-park-golf-met-20170106-story,amp.html (https://www.google.com/amp/www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/breaking/ct-jackson-park-golf-met-20170106-story,amp.html)
Remade Jackson Park Golf Course Won't Just Be For Elites, Parks Chief Says
https://www.dnainfo.com/chicago/20170110/south-shore/jackson-park-golf-course-south-shore-cultural-center-tiger-woods-barack-obama-michael-kelly (https://www.dnainfo.com/chicago/20170110/south-shore/jackson-park-golf-course-south-shore-cultural-center-tiger-woods-barack-obama-michael-kelly)
Maybe they'll get Michael Jordan to design their next basketball arena.
WW
If he brings back that pipe organ from the stadium, I'm all for it. ;)
http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/golf/ct-chicago-golf-course-bmw-championship-spt-0916-20150915-story.html (http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/golf/ct-chicago-golf-course-bmw-championship-spt-0916-20150915-story.html)
The plan would combine South Shore and Jackson Park.
My preferred plan would be adding 600 acres to Northerly Island, 200 acres of park, 400 of golf. That would have downtown views, a short uber from tens of thousands of hotel rooms. Between Soldier Field, McCormick Place and Millenial Park there is a ton of parking.
Make no small plans.
http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/golf/ct-chicago-golf-course-bmw-championship-spt-0916-20150915-story.html (http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/golf/ct-chicago-golf-course-bmw-championship-spt-0916-20150915-story.html)
The plan would combine South Shore and Jackson Park.
My preferred plan would be adding 600 acres to Northerly Island, 200 acres of park, 400 of golf. That would have downtown views, a short uber from tens of thousands of hotel rooms. Between Soldier Field, McCormick Place and Millenial Park there is a ton of parking.
Make no small plans.
Great Lakes Compact my have an opinion but it is not a sacred shoreline. In reality, the Chicagoland shoreline is mostly man made landfill and breakwater.
I went to school and Hyde Park and played Jackson Park many times, and South Shore a few times, in the mid 1990s. My primary memory is that both courses are incredibly flat, and thus that there would have to be very significant earth-moving--even of the Rawls Course variety--to make the new course interesting enough to demand high rates.
I do like the fact that they are talking about building a short course as well as making the main course not overly difficult for the average golfer. The main hurdle will be getting people to actually risk their safety driving to and from the course.
Really? Do you live in the city or are you just some "708er", or worse, a "630er" who ventures into the city to see a game or go to some tourist trap at Navy Pier with your nephews and nieces? Or, you live downstate and went to U of I and have never left the area.
Some other destinations within a half mile of this proposed project: University of Chicago, Museum of Science and Industry, Jackson Park Yacht Club, President Obama's house, Chicago Lab School, Obama Library, etc.
Harborside is a success and that is MUCH farther away.
This course is easily accessible just off Lake Shore Drive.
"With that perhaps the local private clubs could open up for one day of play a week at reduced fees for the locals who have given up their course for the public good. Perhaps maintain fee at the well reduced rate $20? The clubs could make money on food and beverage and perhaps cart revenue."Olympia Fields would be the logical choice given the proximity to the train, 2 courses that are Doak 7's, I could go on and on..............
Yea right. I'm sure the Members at Beverly CC would enthusiastically welcome all the Jackson Park golfers at $20/round.
Teddy Greenstein will need a shower to get the residue of Mike Keiser’s derriere off his face after this shameless excuse for journalism. There is so much puckering in this article that even a seasoned salad tosser like Greenstein should be embarrassed.Let's see...Current Golf Magazine World Top 100 Rankings...
The Top Six Toads in this Article.
6. “…the Lincoln Park resident is golf’s premier modern builder — and on the leaderboard among the game’s all-time visionaries.”
For god’s sake Teddy, this line may have elevated you to the all-time leaderboard of journalist sycophants.
Where should the Presidential Library be located if not on public land in Chicago's south side?
(https://img.huffingtonpost.com/asset/5a4d61d71d000014005c2231.jpg?ops=scalefit_820_noupscale)
I lived in Eastern Europe for a while and this thing has nothing on Soviet Era Monuments.
Paul,
We get it.
Thanks,
Pat
Paul,
We get it.
Thanks,
Pat
Exactly.
No one reads posts that long. Cutting and pasting articles is lazy. State your position and debate/defend from there.
Otherwise, "go home and get your shine box..."
(https://img.huffingtonpost.com/asset/5a4d61d71d000014005c2231.jpg?ops=scalefit_820_noupscale)
I lived in Eastern Europe for a while and this thing has nothing on Soviet Era Monuments.
Really?
I can't see the barbed wire of the gulags and reeducation camps but that Obama is a sneaky one so perhaps they are camoflauged with techniques superior to even Dr. Mackenzie.
I'm starting to understand some of the reasons for the opposition, methinks.
Paul:
Preservation Chicago was front and center in the effort to save the old Prentice Women's Hospital, a building of singular sinister design where the the designer seemed to believe the Panoptican prison design somehow translated into a maternity hospital. Then taking cues from post war Dresden for outdoor ornamentation. They were fools then and their compass heading has not changed.
The site has been a golf course for a long time. A bad one. With a little effort we can change it and solve many problems. Turning the site into Olmstead's plan does no one any good.
The Daley family had so much control over the city I'm sure much of what they did would have been illegal had auditing been done. Oh well, such is politics in the windy city.
Obama is and will be a major push in this project and with his presidential library going to be built on the South Side this golf course by TW will be great.
The Daley family had so much control over the city I'm sure much of what they did would have been illegal had auditing been done. Oh well, such is politics in the windy city.
Obama is and will be a major push in this project and with his presidential library going to be built on the South Side this golf course by TW will be great.
Hard to reconcile the slander of the first assault with the hopeful community sentiment of the other quote.
But maybe you’re a Gemini.🤒. I am, so I’ll take it in that spirit of psychic duality.
Jeff, you know, of course, that Richard Daley is not the Mayor of Chicago. Accordingly, whatever he or his father (deceased) might or might not do has little relevance. There are numerous practical difficulties involved with the project largely relating to raising the private funds and dealing with traffic issues.. As noted, various factions in the community have different interests and ideas. Don't expect all of the negotiations to be played out in the press. Give this some time. It is by no means a done deal, neither is it dead.
If there's a tournament there, the final four holes (15-17 along the lakefront) play as a 3-5-3-5 combination. It's 3-4-3-5 for regular players because the drive on the 16th would be over a beach and look pretty on TV.
You guys who favor the project: you're ok with spending many tens of millions of public dollars, and maybe $150 million or more, to build this course?
“Make no little plans” is an old Daniel Burnham slogan invoked when the city had to rebuild. That phrase seems appropriate now, too. Just because things have been sideways lately doesn’t mean we should give up. The Obama library is a good “hook” here.
🤔
8) Very interesting watching the "try"
From afar its looking less and less about gca and more and more about the State of Chicago, power, and way too much money involved for a golf course, located anywhere.
Go ahead and build it, I'll go play and get fleeced once if I'm still alive, but will probably be more excited when going to Chicago to get some ritual sauerbraten or schnitzel at The Berghoff!
All true so it should be architecturally outstanding.
As for you getting fleeced... well yes, probably a bit, as an out of towner. But probably not as much as you would think.
If it’s executed properly at least you’ll feel good about having played a great course, had a great young caddie, had a classic Chi-Town 19th hole experience, all in support of some great golf programs.
Tip Well-Dilly Dilly.
Jackson Park Golf Association statement from yesterday:
https://chicagoparksgolfalliance.org/updates/2018/02/jackson-park-golf-association-reaffirms-support-golf-course-restoration-thanks-tiger-woods-tgr-design/ (https://chicagoparksgolfalliance.org/updates/2018/02/jackson-park-golf-association-reaffirms-support-golf-course-restoration-thanks-tiger-woods-tgr-design/)
Jackson Park Golf Association statement from yesterday:
https://chicagoparksgolfalliance.org/updates/2018/02/jackson-park-golf-association-reaffirms-support-golf-course-restoration-thanks-tiger-woods-tgr-design/ (https://chicagoparksgolfalliance.org/updates/2018/02/jackson-park-golf-association-reaffirms-support-golf-course-restoration-thanks-tiger-woods-tgr-design/)
That's not actually the Obama Library?
That's not actually the Obama Library?
No. Though it will probably hold a branch of the Chicago Public Library.
The City of Chicago should hire Keith Rhebb & Riley Johns to build a Winter Park style 18 hole course on the Jackson Park grounds, and a short course/putting course where South Shore sits.I like that idea but am also still convinced the uniqueness of the lakefront, population density of golfers and high tourism OPC visitors and traffic could easily handle a fully realized, revenue positive championship golf/practice/community facility. Can it get past the protests and come in at a reasonable budget? Current Chicagoans would need to weigh in on that one. I am of the opinion it could technically get done...
Just a hunch, but I suspect nothing this big could ever be done successfully on a small scale.Go big or go... ?
I say that as someone who has been through the process for over a decade here in Philly.
But more appealing — as well as far cheaper and less disruptive — is the idea of simply giving the existing Jackson Park Golf Course a facelift, with or without advice from Tiger Woods. Transform it from the relatively basic track it’s been since 1899, when it opened as the first public course west of the Allegheny Mountains, into a cleverly sculpted, well-groomed layout similar to rival suburban park district courses.
The Jackson Park site has “good bones,” in the estimation of course architect Greg Martin of Sugar Grove. Martin recently played the course with Daniels and Mike Benkusky of Homewood, a fellow golf architect, and said he came away impressed by “the fun and unique green complexes” as well as the “range of yardages and challenges.”
He compared it to Wrigley Field — “a gem sitting within a neighborhood” — and suggested that it be “reimagined” rather than bulldozed.
Benkusky said that “for $3 (million) to $5 million, they could update the greens, traps and the irrigation system, plant new grasses and trees, and pull back some of the tee areas to get more yardage out of the existing footprint.”
Both architects said championship-level courses, with their tricky, undulating greens and numerous sand traps, tend to frustrate the average player no matter how long the holes are from the closer tees. And they predicted that inevitably high maintenance costs will make it difficult to impossible for the course to be profitable if the Park District keeps to its pledge that greens fees on the new course will be under $50 for locals (fees at Jackson Park are now $35 on weekends) and free for those under 17.
Actually Tom, Mike Keiser and Kemper Sports put that idea on the table several years ago and without going into detail, it didn't fly.I'm guessing that's because the best interest of the golfers who play there now is a secondary consideration. Otherwise, the idea you refer to would probably get more traction.
I don't often get my shoes shined, but if I ran into Rahm Emmanuel I would probably feel a need to get them professionally cleaned.
Yes Kalen, I have read them and respect and agree with the logic of your position but to an extent, disagree based on the reality of the situation. Realistically the land will either be "made available" to a private developer for an astronomical sum or, those that want to keep it a golf course will figure out a way to either get it done. This is an outstanding piece of land that has already become too valuable to remain underdeveloped. IMO, there is a model that supports"golf-positive"development.
Vhal,
I'm not sure if you've read the articles posted in this thread...
I know its a big city and all that comes with that, but I wouldn't say there is anything reasonable about the proposed cost of this project.
I don't often get my shoes shined, but if I ran into Rahm Emmanuel I would probably feel a need to get them professionally cleaned.I dunno, I just posted that I felt the project should be done right and done big with a top architect so I'm hoping Rahm picks up a Confidential Guide. Better that than getting sold to some crony developers for another set of high rises!
Focus...I don't often get my shoes shined, but if I ran into Rahm Emmanuel I would probably feel a need to get them professionally cleaned.
Be sure to include the disinfectant.
Funny, I was just thinking that if this project is attached to Obama’s Library project, i hope every contractor and consultant charges as if they were an insurance company after the passing of the Health Care Act.
Vhal,Yes, in Chicago politics, one can never rule out a mysterious land grab. Acquisition costs are not part of the plan as the city owns the land. That does not preclude a secret plan to sell some parcels for cash. "Abandoned" rail yards in various areas of downtown miraculously ended up in developer hands over the past few decades. There was even a golf course that evaporated one day so any plan should always assume there is a back-room discussion with the potential to yield 100's of millions to somebody. So going big for golf that can deliver a variety of benefits is not that outlandish of an idea in this case. Some way, somehow, $100Million Dollars will be transacted on this land in the next 10 years. Any improvement golf or non-golf will generate positive results so the big play might as well be anchored by public golf and there is a way to have private funds support the project. The math can be made to work with proper leadership. The is no doubt that somebody is going to win by improving this land with a big idea. I am saying that the big idea should and can be anchored by the current activity, public golf.
Good post. And perhaps I missed it, but I didn't think land acquisition costs were apart of this deal as the City already owns the land?
I will certainly agree there is a massively high opportunity cost associated with it, but don't see how that equates to the necessity to spend $50+ mill?
Paul, what is your agenda and what is your source regarding the sentiments of residents? Interested to know whether you have played Jackson Park, whether you have seen the plans and whether you have spent time with resident/resident groups.
Not sure the air quality to golf argument holds up when Harborside International, on mostly landfill adjacent to Lake Calumet, is in the 9th decile – all red.
Paul, thanks for posting.Ibid, Paul. Thanks for that.
The short version: The Woods-Welling plan is as dead as a beaver hat.
Paul, thanks for posting.Ibid, Paul. Thanks for that.
The short version: The Woods-Welling plan is as dead as a beaver hat.
Seems a shame to me. I saw somewhere (maybe here?) a detailed routing of the plan for the new championship routing and it looked pretty spectacular.
I hope they pour some money into both of those places and resurrect them a bit. I think it's historically important to keep them...kind of in the same manner as Canal Shores. These tracks won't bowl you over, but they have a lot of history and are little Chicagoland gems in my mind.
Shel,
Well said. I might add that a few of us in Philadelphia quickly learned in our endeavor that no one was going contribute private monies into a public asset to do this half-assed. Good luck to everyone.