Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture Discussion Group => Topic started by: ward peyronnin on August 24, 2015, 09:07:41 PM
-
Teams have been announced and I have sorted most everything out. Dechambeax ruled at the amateur and I have a Vandy golfer and Mav Mcneilly a teammate of my friend Patrick Rogers and the old guy Steve Harvey to follow. Have to study up on the GBI team and Nigel "Attila" Edwards is again Capt, but more great golf and venue to savor.
We stay at the Preston Marriot about 8 miles from the course and post WC rounds starting Monday are scheduled at Formby, Southport and Ainsdale, W. Lancashire, Delamere Forest , and Reddish Vale 18 holes each day. I have room for dinner. drinks, and maybe as an adder to golf as it is just myself and a friend. Conrad Gamble joins us Monday.
Bill Brightly posted how good the Ayrshire coast is and I agree but this area surely rivals it for proximity of fine golf.
My mobile is 812-457-9083 so any of you all planning to attend please get in touch
Tally Ho
-
Ward,
My wife and I will probably visit Walker Cup, probably Saturday, but it depends on the weather.
My home number +44 (0) 1625-527628.
-
Curious to know if any of the players on either side are genuine amateurs, ie have a full time day job, or are they the pretty much usual group of students or supported by a golf scholarship, a golf association or the bank of mum and dad?
Atb
-
Thomas -
Here is a rundown of the U.S. team. One member (Scott Harvey, the U.S. 2014 Mid-Am champ) is 37 and another (Mike McCoy, the U.S. 2013 Mid-Am Champ) is 52. The rest are 22 and younger.
http://www.usga.org/championships/2015/walker-cup/articles/five-more-are-named-to-usa-walker-cup-team.html (http://www.usga.org/championships/2015/walker-cup/articles/five-more-are-named-to-usa-walker-cup-team.html)
Looks like the GB&I team is all 22 and younger (except for one 26-year old):
http://www.randa.org/en/RandA/News/News/2015/August/The-Great-Britain-and-Ireland-Walker-Cup-Team-is-announced.aspx (http://www.randa.org/en/RandA/News/News/2015/August/The-Great-Britain-and-Ireland-Walker-Cup-Team-is-announced.aspx)
DT
-
Thank you David.
Good luck to all the participants and I hope all who visit RL&StA have a terrific time. Nice to see that two older guys will be participating in the match. The concept of 'amateur' golfers however, is a somewhat strange one these days.
Atb
-
Thank you David.
Good luck to all the participants and I hope all who visit RL&StA have a terrific time. Nice to see that two older guys will be participating in the match. The concept of 'amateur' golfers however, is a somewhat strange one these days.
Atb
People's fascination with what constitutes "amateurism" is still puzzling to me. I'll use myself as part of my example because I can speak of my experience.
I am a reinstated amateur. I work 50-60 hours a week, have 2 children (one with special needs), married, no trust fund, but I was a golf pro for close to 10 years (the majority of which I taught and ran a golf shop). I never made it past PGA Tour Q-School 2nd Stage when I tried playing for two years, played ok at the mini-tour level, and never played in a PGA Tour event. The USGA made me wait 3 years of not competing before they granted my amateur status back.
With that said, I quite often feel the vibe that some look at me as some form of convict, as if I am somehow tainted and in violation of some ethical, puritanical code of honor. Yet, when I compete in amateur events I am surrounded by kids that are receiving free tuition, equipment, and access to courses that virtually no other amateurs have. On top of that, they are even telling you to your face that they are turning pro as soon as they can. Yet, these kids are looked at as "pure". It always strikes me as ridiculous that some feel this way. Top collegiate players are basically professionals, except in name. Beyond that, the trust fund type that never turned pro, having no reason to do so, is viewed as some righteous idol of worship. It's easy to make a decision to never turn pro when you have $200mil sitting in a trust fund for you.
Ok, rant over.
-
I guess I should have also stated this...
I think the USGA/R&A have always laid it out fairly simple. In their view, if you accept money for your likeness, for teaching, or for prize money, you have violated their definition of amateurism. If you do violate the rules of amateurism, you have to apply for reinstatement, and wait a period set by them to regain your amateur status. Obviously, there is a blurred line of sorts that is hard to judge. I am playing a US Mid-Am Qualifier this coming Monday with a person that has played in majors, had a PGA Tour card for a short time, I'm guessing made considerable earnings on the Tour, led the Order of Merit on the Asian Tour for a season, etc. He didn't play professional golf for 10 years before being reinstated though. I'm personally ok with that. I know there are a lot of guys that aren't. I also realize you have to draw the line somewhere and I think the USGA has done a good job of determining that line for the vast majority of cases. This belief in some code that exists, or existed, where once you turn pro it's forever, is simply unfounded and based in myth.
To get on topic in some small way, I think the addition of two mid-ams to the Walker Cup team is refreshing and I think Scott Harvey was definitely deserving of one of those two spots and Mike McCoy's resume is super deep and deserving of an opportunity to play on the team.
-
Thank you for your interesting perspective, Jeff. These are rationale most people inside the game wouldn't know or think about.
-
Some fine points made above by Jeff. Time to amend the qualifying criterion perhaps? Off the top of the head say something akin 50% of the players to be mid-amateurs (35>) or all the players to be above say 25 yrs old? The other oddity is that some of the others involved seem to work in golf business, eg I believe the GB&I Capt works for the EGU.
Atb
-
Dear Ward,
I'll be there both days, with a mixture of family and good friends. Very much looking forward, even though a bit saddened by the absence of any Welshmen (save the non-playing Captain) from the team.
A PS which might interest Mark Rowlinson - I discovered last Sunday morning that the journey from the car park at Harlech to the car park at Delamere Forest can be undertaken in exactly the time it takes to play both CDs of Verdi's Falstaff in the classic (1950) Toscanini recording. Just so you know.
-
Some fine points made above by Jeff. Time to amend the qualifying criterion perhaps? Off the top of the head say something akin 50% of the players to be mid-amateurs (35>) or all the players to be above say 25 yrs old? The other oddity is that some of the others involved seem to work in golf business, eg I believe the GB&I Capt works for the EGU.
Atb
Interesting ideas. A good way to look at this is how many of the players that are going to be on both Walker Cup squads turn pro within the next 1-3 years? With the exception of the two mid-ams on the US squad and maybe the 26 year old on the GB&I side, I'd venture ALL of them. I've heard Maverick McNealy may stay amateur, but that decision would be easier to make for a son of a billionaire, and I don't mean that begrudgingly.
I think the USGA has taken the unilateral first step of trying to include amateurs that aren't on their way to the tour by committing to put two mid-ams on their team. The R&A hasn't taken that step I assume because they want their most competitive team out there. The USA has won the overwhelming amount of the matches, so maybe that is the reasoning behind the R&A's decision to stick predominantly to their young guns.
In addition, the R&A shelved the British Mid-Amateur some years ago for reasons I still don't understand. Maybe the participation level in the event had never gained traction. It seems as if the competitive mid-amateur golf scene isn't as vibrant in the UK as it is here in the states. It seems more focused on club team competitions for the mid-am level player than individual events. I think that is a shame. I'd love to come try to qualify or play in a British Mid-Amateur Championship. One of the ideas I've had since being reinstated would be to have a "Walker Cup" type event for mid-amateurs. Even go as far as to include all of Europe for the GB&I side to make it more competitive if need be like was done in the Ryder Cup. Heck, maybe that idea would be good for the Walker Cup as well. Open up Europe to make it a consistently more even match (although that has worked against the US in the Ryder Cup in terms of winning, but it has been great for golf).
-
Jeff,
I believe the British Mid-Amateur is still going.
There is an English Mid-Amateur too, also called the Logan Trophy, that may be worth you Googling to find out whether you would be eligible to enter (my gut feel is you probably would be okay). I believe there are also Welsh, Scottish and Irish Mid-Ams as well entry to which you may also wish to investigate.
A Mid-Am version of the Walker Cup, or a generally amended W-C to maybe include Continental Euro' players as well sounds a good idea.
Atb
-
Thank you David.
Good luck to all the participants and I hope all who visit RL&StA have a terrific time. Nice to see that two older guys will be participating in the match. The concept of 'amateur' golfers however, is a somewhat strange one these days.
Atb
When was it not?
How many "amateurs" had day jobs at the turn of the century?
It was just another way for the non working leisure class to distinguish themselves from the lowly professionals (caddies)
Most competitive "amateurs" play more golf than any pros I know, and a student at least has to keep up with his studies., and still has to work or have money for incidentals.
Jeff,
It's always interesting to me to see a College coach considered an amateur, and a shirt folding 8 handicap club pro a pro.
Caddiemasters and caddies can be amateurs, yet they get paid for golf advice daily.
Many contradictions out there.
Hard for me to see how any card holding, consistent major participant can be an amateur.
You can never take their experience away
-
Jeff,
I believe the British Mid-Amateur is still going.
There is an English Mid-Amateur too, also called the Logan Trophy, that may be worth you Googling to find out whether you would be eligible to enter (my gut feel is you probably would be okay). I believe there are also Welsh, Scottish and Irish Mid-Ams as well entry to which you may also wish to investigate.
A Mid-Am version of the Walker Cup, or a generally amended W-C to maybe include Continental Euro' players as well sounds a good idea.
Atb
If the British Mid-Amateur is still running it is not being done by the R&A. I've researched their website about it and it is NLE. I have heard there is an English Mid-Amateur (Logan Trophy?), which I will look in to (alongside the other regional Mid-Am events). I think a Mid-Am run by the R&A would be the ideal choice for Americans, knowing that it would be run and held at the highest standards and esteem as a national event instead of a regional one. It would be like what The Amateur (British) is to the US Amateur just inserting the Mid-Am guidelines.
-
Jeff,
It's always interesting to me to see a College coach considered an amateur, and a shirt folding 8 handicap club pro a pro.
Caddiemasters and caddies can be amateurs, yet they get paid for golf advice daily.
Many contradictions out there.
Hard for me to see how any card holding, consistent major participant can be an amateur.
You can never take their experience away
I agree there are a lot of contradictions re: caddies/club pros, etc. As for where to draw the line on former member of major professional tours... that's difficult to determine. I agree it is a very grey area and the arbitrary nature of it makes it difficult to look at from outside the reinstatement dept of the USGA. I think overall the USGA has done a very good job in granting reinstatement. Obviously, there are individual cases that raise eyebrows where the USGA probably dropped the ball (ie the often discussed Dillard Pruitt reinstatement). I like hearing people's opinions on where they think the line should be drawn. With that said I'm comfortable with the job the USGA is doing in the reinstatement process and decision making, so far.
-
The R&A cancelled the British Mid-Amateur several years ago - the last one had been announced for Harlech, but never took place. Even reducing the age limit from 35 to 25 had not generated the kind of player traction that had been expected (following the success of the US example), and whilst there are indeed national, regional and other 'mid-amateur' events, these have never echoed the success of (say) the amateur Seniors championships, of which there are now a plethora in the UK, with both national 'open' and 'closed' senior events - in Wales, for example, the Welsh Open Amateur Seniors event was held at Nefyn this year, whilst the Welsh (Closed) Seniors Championship is always held at Aberdovey.
Why the 'mid-am' concept has not taken off in the same way here in the UK, and why there is no pressure to include mid-amateurs in (say) the British Walker Cup team, I couldn't explain. Others will doubtless have a view.
-
I think the Mike McCoy selection is outstanding -- he has had an illustrious Amateur career USGA titles, Crump Cups, Iowa Amateurs, blah, blah, blah. Hopefully a wily 52 year old can keep pace with the flat-bellies,. Good year for Iowa golf in the British Isles. The first I saw it was when Zach Johnson tweeted his congratulations which is pretty cool.
-
Warne,
Which college coaches are amateurs? Haas from Wake and Small from Illinois compete in club pro events all the time, but I can't recall the last time I saw someone other than Tim Mickelson play in the Porter Cup or other amateur event, and he doesn't ever do all that well.
-
When was it not?
How many "amateurs" had day jobs at the turn of the century?
It was just another way for the non working leisure class to distinguish themselves from the lowly professionals (caddies)
Jeff
Not sure which century you are referring to but in the late 1800's early 1900's quite a few of the top amateurs did have day jobs albeit based on their prowess at golf. Think of Harold Hilton as editor of a golf magazine, Harry Colt as club secretary and golf course architect, Bernard Darwin as golf writer etc. All talented people at what they did but also in a position to either directly or indirectly influence the definition of amateur such that their golf related earnings didn't impinge on their amateur status.
Niall
-
The wife and I have just finished our stay at Lytham St Anne's, we have the Dormy house all to ourselves tonight. The course is in great shape, these could be the best links greens I've played on, very subtle breaks without any wild undulations. Thankfully we didn't have to hit me off mats, the course played a little tougher because the holes were all cut in the front of the greens. If the wind is down the boys should go low, it was quite breezy yesterday. They have a great deal here with golf the Dormy house breakfast and dinner with jacket and tie included.
-
I doubt this will happen, but I hope I live long enough to see an amateur win a major. The most likely way that will happen is if a prodigy who happens to love the game,has tremendous backing or family wealth. As much as I'd like to see a fellow like Johnny Goodman win, we're more likely to see it happen to the likes of a Frank Stranahan. That would be fine with me also. Heck, stranger things have happened: I was at games 3 and 4 in 2004 when Boston won their first WS in 86 years.
-
6-time GB&I Walker Cupper Gary Wolstenhome makes the case for pros who were former Walker Cuppers (such as Colin Montgomerie and Padraig Harrington) to serve as Walker Cup captains. Sounds like a good idea to me.
http://www.heraldscotland.com/sport/13648660.Wolstenholme_touts_Monty_and_Harrington_for_Walker_Cup_role/
-
Amateurism in golf is full of pious hypocrisy by those who seek or claim to preserve it.
The unions and associations have umpteen corporate partners. Even the Walker Cup is in association with Rolex.
I'm not criticising the decision of commercial funding where needed, but the pretence of amateurism should be dropped. It's ignored when it suits and used to hold back and stifle when it doesn't.
It's also riddled with outdated connotations of class.
-
I just checked on the broadcast schedule for the Walker Cup this weekend. Turns out that Fox, the "official U.S. television partner "of the USGA, has exactly ZERO coverage of the event. The only TV coverage here in the U.S. is a freaking 2-hour highlight show on Sunday on ESPN2. There is some online coverage on ESPN3, but that is always tough to access. So ZERO television coverage in the U.S. What a joke.
Thanks, USGA. Way to "grow the game" (to borrow their catchphrase).
-
I just checked on the broadcast schedule for the Walker Cup this weekend. Turns out that Fox, the "official U.S. television partner "of the USGA, has exactly ZERO coverage of the event. The only TV coverage here in the U.S. is a freaking 2-hour highlight show on Sunday on ESPN2. There is some online coverage on ESPN3, but that is always tough to access. So ZERO television coverage in the U.S. What a joke.
Thanks, USGA. Way to "grow the game" (to borrow their catchphrase).
I guess this is the fresh, out side of the box thinking that Fox brings to the USGA broadcasting table.
-
I just checked on the broadcast schedule for the Walker Cup this weekend. Turns out that Fox, the "official U.S. television partner "of the USGA, has exactly ZERO coverage of the event. The only TV coverage here in the U.S. is a freaking 2-hour highlight show on Sunday on ESPN2. There is some online coverage on ESPN3, but that is always tough to access. So ZERO television coverage in the U.S. What a joke.
Thanks, USGA. Way to "grow the game" (to borrow their catchphrase).
I guess this is the fresh, out side of the box thinking that Fox brings to the USGA broadcasting table.
Less is more?
-
I guess they took outside of the box literally, as in outside of the television box.
-
That's unforgivable that there will be no regularly scheduled broadcast in the States. Fortunately I'm in England right now so I should be able to catch the some of the action. For those of you that are over here to watch in person I highly recommend playing St Annes Old Links,we played there yesterday and it is extremely hard and fast. Frankly the only course we have played in the last three weeks that had true links conditions. Granted they had the wettest August in history but sadly the boys may be shooting darts at Royal Lytham St Annes this weekend. I suspect this is a function of picking Network that is deeply invested in football, at least NBC could relie on the Golf Channel to provide coverage.
-
Pete
Apparently down in England they like there courses soft and lush so no doubt the membership of those other courses you played insisted the greenkeeper keep the sprinklers on regardless. Or at least that's the story from From Paul Gray and Thomas Dai on another thread ;)
Niall
-
I just checked on the broadcast schedule for the Walker Cup this weekend. Turns out that Fox, the "official U.S. television partner "of the USGA, has exactly ZERO coverage of the event. The only TV coverage here in the U.S. is a freaking 2-hour highlight show on Sunday on ESPN2. There is some online coverage on ESPN3, but that is always tough to access. So ZERO television coverage in the U.S. What a joke.
Thanks, USGA. Way to "grow the game" (to borrow their catchphrase).
Well, you know there's so much other golf on I bet the were not wanting to compete....oh only the women's Evian Championship, no PGA Tour.
-
I heard that when WC is in GBI the R&A control the TV rights, which might explain why Fox is not involved.
-
I heard that when WC is in GBI the R&A control the TV rights, which might explain why Fox is not involved.
That's fair, but then ESPN could at least throw us a bone and show something??? They have about 25 channels. The BBC is covering the event in the UK, but unfortunately BBC America is not part of that.
As Josh pointed out, it's not like there is much other golf to compete with for air time this weekend.
-
Pete
Apparently down in England they like there courses soft and lush so no doubt the membership of those other courses you played insisted the greenkeeper keep the sprinklers on regardless. Or at least that's the story from From Paul Gray and Thomas Dai on another thread ;)
Niall
Chuckle, chuckle, chuckle :)
The BBC are showing both days of the Walker Cup. Can you access the BBC via the web?
Atb
-
I heard that when WC is in GBI the R&A control the TV rights, which might explain why Fox is not involved.
That's fair, but then ESPN could at least throw us a bone and show something??? They have about 25 channels. The BBC is covering the event in the UK, but unfortunately BBC America is not part of that.
As Josh pointed out, it's not like there is much other golf to compete with for air time this weekend.
Agreed, just noting that our quibbles are not with Fox here.
-
The reality is the viewing audience for the Walker Cup in the U.S. is less than minuscule.
-
The matches are broadcast on ESPN 3 all day Saturday and on ESPN 2 & 3 all day Sunday... cia cable and Internet. Can't ask for much more than that for such a low demand event.
-
I guess the Ocho is showing the Dodgeball tourney.
-
From the BBC TV pictures the course seems pretty green. What do those who are at RL&StA reckon? How's the course playing?
Atb
-
I'm playing there later in October. I'm hoping for some dry conditions between now and then to mitigate the general green, soft conditions it seems most of northern England and Scotland have been experiencing this year.
What are conditions like on the ground these days? Thanks for any info.
-
"What are conditions like on the ground these days? Thanks for any info."
MCirba -
I don't know how far north you will be visiting. I am leaving Dornoch tomorrow after 3 weeks here. This is my 12th year of visiting and it is the softest and greenest I can ever remember it being. There are pitch marks in the fairways and on the aprons of the greens. The rough is very lush and very deep.
DT
P.S. GB&I leads 7-5 after Day 1:
http://www.usga.org/championships/2015/walker-cup/scoring.html
-
From the BBC TV pictures the course seems pretty green. What do those who are at RL&StA reckon? How's the course playing?
Atb
Thomas,
Played two rounds there exactly two weeks ago. After the wettest August in history the course is extremely green. We had overnight rain both days and a few showers during the day. There was some runout but the course was definitely not running fast. Greens were very good and quick for a windy links course. It has been much dryer in Lancashire the past two weeks so possibly things are more links like. I would suspect these conditions definitely favor the U.S. aside.
-
Why would conditions favour the U.S. team? Lytham holds a major amateur event early in the season when the course tends to be soft.
-
Why would conditions favour the U.S. team? Lytham holds a major amateur event early in the season when the course tends to be soft.
Mark,
Well technically it is still summer. We played the three Royals here in Lancashire and none were very fast. We did however play St Annes Old Links and that was as firm as a U.S. parking lot! Granted all these courses will accept a well stuck short iron directly to the green, but for true links conditions there should be at least some doubt whether a long iron will hold. Fairway runout is critical too as at RLSA the problem is running into somewhere you don't want to go! Very hard to go round that course without encountering some very serious pot bunkers.
-
"Why would conditions favour the U.S. team?"
Mark -
While greener & softer conditions might not make the U.S. team the favorites, those conditions certainly make the course play less "links-like" and allow the high-ball hitting U.S. team to compete on a more equal footing.
DT
-
"Why would conditions favour the U.S. team?"
Mark -
While greener & softer conditions might not make the U.S. team the favorites, those conditions certainly make the course play less "links-like" and allow the high-ball hitting U.S. team to compete on a more equal footing.
DT
But only if it is not windy David. Not sure how the weather has been/is but high wind and thick rough do not mix well with high ball flights.
Jon
-
"But only if it is not windy David. Not sure how the weather has been/is but high wind and thick rough do not mix well with high ball flights."
Jon -
Understood. Based on what is on the telly right now (the Sunday morning 4-somes), the greens look very receptive, with balls checking after 1 or 2 bounces, and the wind is nominal.
The GB&I boys look well in command!
DT
-
ESPN2 has a two-hour highlight package Sunday (9/13) from 3-5 p.m. ET. That's noon-2 p.m. PT.
-
I just checked on the broadcast schedule for the Walker Cup this weekend. Turns out that Fox, the "official U.S. television partner "of the USGA, has exactly ZERO coverage of the event. The only TV coverage here in the U.S. is a freaking 2-hour highlight show on Sunday on ESPN2. There is some online coverage on ESPN3, but that is always tough to access. So ZERO television coverage in the U.S. What a joke.
Thanks, USGA. Way to "grow the game" (to borrow their catchphrase).
The silver lining is that ESPN3 has been using the BBC's coverage. I hope FOX continues not to cover events such as this.
-
Without descending into Golf Clothes Atlas, I will say that while GB&I won the match, the USGA actually put some thought into their uniforms. No stock adidas shirts with the lion tacked on as an afterthought.
That said, I do like the GB&I Lion. Can anyone tell me about its origin?
-
I just checked on the broadcast schedule for the Walker Cup this weekend. Turns out that Fox, the "official U.S. television partner "of the USGA, has exactly ZERO coverage of the event. The only TV coverage here in the U.S. is a freaking 2-hour highlight show on Sunday on ESPN2. There is some online coverage on ESPN3, but that is always tough to access. So ZERO television coverage in the U.S. What a joke.
Thanks, USGA. Way to "grow the game" (to borrow their catchphrase).
The silver lining is that ESPN3 has been using the BBC's coverage. I hope FOX continues not to cover events such as this.
I wasn't able to watch. If it's not on TV, it's harder to watch. That may be old fashioned and outdated, but internet coverage is not as convenient as regular television coverage.
-
GB&I in association with Adidas and sponsored by Rolex won comfortably.
RND's Jimmy Mullen went 4-0.
Feherty is Irish again for this week.
-
Based on what I have been reading, it appears that it is now the USGA's policy to include 2 mid-ams on the U.S. Walker Cup team regardless of their ability relative to the other players available.
-
David,
I know you're not rallying against it or anything, but I really like that move on the USGA's part. It would be extremely easy to pick the 12 best college golfers in a year and go with that. It rewards the "weekend warriors" that still have the game to compete at an extremely high level, yet chose not to try their hands on the mini-tours. For an event that has nothing riding on it besides pride and experience I think that's pretty cool.
-
David,
I know you're not rallying against it or anything, but I really like that move on the USGA's part. It would be extremely easy to pick the 12 best college golfers in a year and go with that. It rewards the "weekend warriors" that still have the game to compete at an extremely high level, yet chose not to try their hands on the mini-tours. For an event that has nothing riding on it besides pride and experience I think that's pretty cool.
Josh.
While I agree with your sentiment, history has shown most successful midams were far better than "mini tour players" some with actual success on the PGA tour.
It's a nice symbolic move by the USGA but let's not kid ourselves that midams never turned or tried pro
-
I'm not sure where future captains will come from. They all turn pro. GB&I are running out. Talk of allowing pro's to captain if the captain is to be a former player.
The Americans seemed very likeable this year. Perfect gentleman. Not sure if that had anything to do with the result but there seemed very little spikeyness. No horschell or Kim type character who can thrive on such an environment.
-
Very interesting (from the GB&I point of view) podcast on the Walker Cup with Lawrence Donegan & John Huggan that was recorded last week, before the event. The guest is Dean Robertson, former Walker Cupper, Euro Tour winner and now golf coach at Stirling University.
http://hwcdn.libsyn.com/p/4/c/6/4c6d17e6f6de9e76/ByTheMinGolf_Podcast_43.mp3?c_id=9798183&expiration=1442354443&hwt=62dea34841a1e3097b10c9461503412b (http://hwcdn.libsyn.com/p/4/c/6/4c6d17e6f6de9e76/ByTheMinGolf_Podcast_43.mp3?c_id=9798183&expiration=1442354443&hwt=62dea34841a1e3097b10c9461503412b)
-
My limited observations from being on the ground both days because I could only watch so many matches:
Torrential rain Saturday morning Course very soft and rough thick from previous rain; had to avoid
Non prevailing wind both morning for foursomes and shifting for afternoons but really minimal sunday; bad mojo between yanks partners evolved so did they have a clue how to perform in this format?
Wasn't terribly impressed with facilities and retail and some other obligations hosting for R&A vs USGA venues
Captains made a big difference: DesChambeux in the hole sunday ludicrous; poor course management by Yanks of a course where bunkering; blind approaches demands it; they looked lost out there. and on the greens as well i was so sick of watching yanks except DesCh gag 10+/- putts that i wondered what the hell they didn't do to prepare( not sure a Capt can make players make putts but this was ridiculous and these greens are very different over here)
I can justify with what I watched saying the yanks LOST the cup as much as G,B&I won. Didn't see a turrible lot of great golf out there except for Mullins short game magic; more lots of poor decisions and shite putting losing holes.
-
Based on what I have been reading, it appears that it is now the USGA's policy to include 2 mid-ams on the U.S. Walker Cup team regardless of their ability relative to the other players available.
This is true. Although I could make numerous arguments suggesting that the WAGR is biased heavily in favor of collegiate players (maybe rightfully so, but biased nonetheless). Let us also remember that at the NGLA Walker Cup two years ago that both White and Smith were the two consecutive points in Sunday singles that clinched the victory for the United States.
[quote author=Josh Tarble link=topic=61670.msg1467133#msg1467133 date=1442326369]David,
I know you're not rallying against it or anything, but I really like that move on the USGA's part. It would be extremely easy to pick the 12 best college golfers in a year and go with that. It rewards the "weekend warriors" that still have the game to compete at an extremely high level, yet chose not to try their hands on the mini-tours. For an event that has nothing riding on it besides pride and experience I think that's pretty cool.
Couple quick comments...
This is splitting hairs but the Walker Cup teams only have 10 players, not 12. It's an easy mistake to make as the Ryder Cup and other big international matches have 12 players per team. While I'm not 100% certain on the backgrounds of the last few mid-ams to play in the Walker Cup re: potentially having been reinstated amateurs, there are many mid-ams that are reinstated and did try to play professionally at some point. It wouldn't surprise me to see a reinstated amateur make the team at some point if one hasn't already made the team.
I think it's a wonderful thing that the USGA has decided to include two mid-ams on the team. Making it publicly known that this was their plan moving forward a few years ago may have put some added pressure on the mid-ams that make the team potentially. Everyone seems to think that is what lost this year's matches. I disagree. How about we got outplayed and didn't putt as well? Outside DeChambeau and Hossler no one played particularly well for the USA. We lost in the UK four years ago with only Nathan Smith representing the mid-ams. Was it all his fault too? I don't know, the fact is the GB&I team played better. Were there two deserving collegiate players that could have played in place of the mid-ams? Sure. Would that have made a difference? Maybe, but doubtful to turn it into a victory for the US. I think people need to take a step back and get off the pile and let both Mike McCoy and Scott Harvey breathe. They represented our country with class and are two exceptional golfers.
-
Jeff F. and Josh T. -
I was making no judgement on the USGA's policy of including 2 mid-ams on the Walker Cup team. I was simply confirming what the policy is.
It would not bother me in the least if a professional golfer served as a team captain for either the US or GB&I teams, just as long as he had once played in the Walker Cup.
DT
-
Jeff F. and Josh T. -
I was making no judgement on the USGA's policy of including 2 mid-ams on the Walker Cup team. I was simply confirming what the policy is.
DT
Got it. Look at my response as addressing what you're reading.
-
Wardo - I have to agree with you about the poor decision making. I was so frustrated with the shite decisions I had to turn off the broadcast. I saw so many stupid plays... trying to drive short par fours, for example that had a 1 in 10 chance of success at best. In every case I witnessed the USA team would try some heroic shot and it would wind up costing them the hole and, ultimately, the match. There was no evidence of strategic play. As you say, the GB&I team didn't really win the matches as much as the USA team gave them away with sorry play. The All-English team was outstanding and those guys would have beaten just about anyone, but the rest just had to stay out of trouble and watch the Americans implode.
-
One other observation. St Anne's is a very fine course especially the middle holes. But so much of the play there is dictated by endless gruesome bunkers set directly in line of play and everywhere else that i confess the course does not qualify for that ultimate arbiter to me.
That is of course "Is it a course i could play everday?" Just don't think I could take the inevitable nasty multiple bunker shots on a weekly basis.
-
Obviously a British response to the weekend's events is going to be a bit different! Good to see so many friends at Lytham, which I think turned out to be a much better and more atmospheric Walker Cup venue than some had feared: it was an unusual, slightly political and eyebrow-raising choice when announced (and don't forget that the WC is going back to the North-West in 2019 for the 150th anniversary of the Royal Liverpool Golf Club), but Saturday afternoon's excitement and Sunday's weather both contributed to a cracking weekend overall. Personally, I emerged with a much, much stronger sense of the excellence of Lytham as a test than at (say) the 2012 Open: it's striking how much of a course's challenge gets effectively hidden by the spectator facilities of a major championship.
As for the British team, Captain Edwards played another blinder: he has now been on two winning Walker Cup teams as a player, and two as a captain. Annual experience of the Lytham Trophy (one of our two or three premier 72 hole strokeplay events, along with the Brabazon and the Links Trophy) surely helped our side, and it can't be coincidental that the one player on either side side with a 4 from 4 record, Jimmy Mullen, has the great good fortune to play his regular golf at RND Westward Ho! Whilst I take Ward's point about the softening rain, this didn't make course management choices any easier, and on the whole the Brits did this (much) better. For once (and in stark contrast to Walker Cups of the past) the Brits also putted better throughout. Incidentally, GCAers with an interest in the history of the game might like to check out the Pathe News website, where there is a good deal of newsreel footage of pre-war matches, showing (inter alia) some proper stymies!
Anyway, the weekend left me looking forward to the LA Country Club, Hoylake, and Seminole as a truly enticing trio of upcoming venues, in keeping with an event which is for me the most enjoyable fixture in all elite golf, and (by a mile) the best spectator proposition.
-
........it's striking how much of a course's challenge gets effectively hidden by the spectator facilities of a major championship
A very valid point Richard, plus less grandstands/scoreboards to get free drops from, less spectators to help find wayward shots, less worn paths in the rough to find a nice lie etc etc.
Atb
-
That is of course "Is it a course i could play everday?" Just don't think I could take the inevitable nasty multiple bunker shots on a weekly basis.
Funny, the wife was ecstatic that during our first round she was miraculously missing all those bunkers, she had only been in 2 all day going into 17! She ended up with 3 more for a total of 5 for the and was quite proud of herself, I hit it pretty good and landed in 7.
Before teeing off the second day I asked the guy in front of us if he had ever had a bunker free round and he though for a moment and said: " you know I've been a member here for over 40 years and I've never done it !" The greens are maddenly subtle with tiny variations all over the place, there are precious few greens there where the slope is obvious.
-
I was part of the LACC contingent at Lytham and was very impressed by the course after walking it Friday. I became more so each day. The victory by GB&I did not surprise me, as I'd watched both teams on the practice field on Friday and come away thinking that the GB&I players simply looked more solid. Why it became a rout boiled down to three factors, IMO;
- GB&I were better around the greens (the exact opposite from NGLA in '13)
- USA were spending way too much time figuring the type of shot to hit
(most evident in the foursomes) and never seemed comfortable.
- The GB&I team chemistry seemed far better overall.
Only Hossler & DeChambeau escape the above criticism. They were right there on every shot and never missed a beat.
-
One other observation. St Anne's is a very fine course especially the middle holes. But so much of the play there is dictated by endless gruesome bunkers set directly in line of play and everywhere else that i confess the course does not qualify for that ultimate arbiter to me.
That is of course "Is it a course i could play everday?" Just don't think I could take the inevitable nasty multiple bunker shots on a weekly basis.
Ward,
I presume you mean L& St. A as there is an excellent links just up the road which is St.Annes. I agree the course could lose a good many bunkers on the periphery but the ones in the line of play are what make the course so good. Having played it on numerous occasion I would have no problem playing it day in day out. It is a course you have to think your way round in order to get a decent score.
Jon