Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture Discussion Group => Topic started by: Joe Bausch on July 31, 2015, 11:29:39 AM
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Recently I was approached to determine if North Fork, which opened as a 9-hole course in 1912, was designed by Donald Ross (which would be the one and only Ross course design on LI, FWIW).
The answer is 'yes', IMO. Read below for the details.
Until I looked into this, the evidence of Ross' involvement come from club journals, like this line from the 75th anniversary booklet:
"On this fertile land... the famous architect Donald Ross of Pinehurst laid out a nine hole links of 3,000 yards".
The Club has no drawings or other documents, quite possibly because of two clubhouse fires (1925 and again in 1985).
The late Tom MacWood posted this on a GCA thread in 2008:
The Tufts Archives divides Ross courses into three catagories. Courses with documentation and his plans. Courses with some documentation but no plans. Courses with no documentation and no plans. North Fork falls into the latter catagory. That doesn't necessarily mean the course its not Ross's but there is some doubt.
The Club's recent 100th anniversary book believes the key person is member Charles B. Hudson, who was one of the club founders. In the early 1900's he retired and had homes both near North Fork and in Pinehurst. And he played golf. He was secretary of The Tin Whistles for 30 years, a golfing fraternity in Pinehurst.
So it would be logical he would have known Ross. And maybe Ross drew up plans for them in late 1911 as the club was being planned.
It didn't take me too long searching various old newspaper databases to support what the Club has always believed. I've gathered up all those articles and put them here in chronological order:
http://www80.homepage.villanova.edu/joseph.bausch/images/NorthFork/ (http://www80.homepage.villanova.edu/joseph.bausch/images/NorthFork/)
In late 1911 Hudson was named chair of the green committee, as shown in the November 17, 1911 County Review article:
http://www80.homepage.villanova.edu/joseph.bausch/images/NorthFork/pages/page_13.html? (http://www80.homepage.villanova.edu/joseph.bausch/images/NorthFork/pages/page_13.html?)
Then in 1912 two different newspaper articles identifies Ross as the architect. The first being on June 28, 1912 in the County Review:
http://www80.homepage.villanova.edu/joseph.bausch/images/NorthFork/pages/page_16.html (http://www80.homepage.villanova.edu/joseph.bausch/images/NorthFork/pages/page_16.html)
And then on June 30 the Brooklyn Daily Eagle:
http://www80.homepage.villanova.edu/joseph.bausch/images/NorthFork/pages/page_17.html (http://www80.homepage.villanova.edu/joseph.bausch/images/NorthFork/pages/page_17.html)
So, you lurkers out there that think GCA doesn't teach you anything new, well, today it did. ;)
Another 9 holes was added in 1922. But I've not yet succeeded in finding the architect, but if I was a betting man, I'd again go with Ross. [Edit: see later post by Jim Kennedy indicating it was Devereux Emmet]
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Great stuff, Joe.
I'm sure those at the club will be very pleased with your findings.
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Nice going Joe!
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Thanks, guys.
Perhaps I should have posted this on a Monday instead of a Friday. I sure thought it was a significant finding. ;D
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Slow news cycle.
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Excellent detective work
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Joe,
Have you played the course ?
If so, how did it look and feel ?
Like a Ross ?
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Slow news cycle.
Like a Friday news dump.
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Here is a 1938 aerial of the course:
(it should be clickable to a much larger size)
http://www80.homepage.villanova.edu/joseph.bausch/images/misc/North_Fork_Aerial_1938.jpg (http://www80.homepage.villanova.edu/joseph.bausch/images/misc/North_Fork_Aerial_1938.jpg)
(http://www80.homepage.villanova.edu/joseph.bausch/images/misc/North_Fork_Aerial_1938.jpg) (http://www80.homepage.villanova.edu/joseph.bausch/images/misc/North_Fork_Aerial_1938.jpg)
The original 9 holes are 1-7, 17 and 18. In 1922 holes 8-16 were added.
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Joe,
Have you played the course ?
If so, how did it look and feel ?
Like a Ross ?
Pat, I have not played the course.
Note that I believe in the 70's an architect by the name of Gene Hamm altered the course. I don't yet know the details of that work.
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I'd be interested to hear opinions on whether it's worth a visit, as my wife's family has a vacation home about ten minutes away. I'm guessing it's not too far from Friar's Head.
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Click on that aerial above to make it larger. Does the 4th hole look like a Biarritz? Does the 6th a Short?
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Click on that aerial above to make it larger. Does the 4th hole look like a Biarritz? Does the 6th a Short?
4 looks like a possible Alps, and I agree 6 looks like a Short.
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Interesting how geometric some of those bunkers appear. If you had told me this was a long lost Raynor as opposed to Ross I would have thought that very possible from above.
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Joe, great research...I was always told that it was a 9 hole Ross, and does seem like it when you play it....Rumor always was that Dev Emmet and the Donald had a gentleman's agreement on territory
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Interesting how geometric some of those bunkers appear. If you had told me this was a long lost Raynor as opposed to Ross I would have thought that very possible from above.
Mike,
The aerial was taken 26 years after Ross built the course, who knows what happened in those intervening years.
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Jim,
That's my point. I wonder if Raynor or Emmet was responsible for the second nine holes and perhaps more?
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When did Raynor start building golf courses? As early as 1912?
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Joe,
I recall there was a rather extensive debate here back in the day about when Raynor started designing golf courses on the North Shore threads, but if you count NGLA, it seems likely that he started "building" that particular course in 1907/08 although I'm confused as to the respective roles played by Raynor and Mortimer Payne for that construction.
As you know, there was a a May 1907 article that Payne had been hired to build NGLA and then a detailed July 1908 article that described the wonderful work Payne had done at NGLA constructing the course despite multiple obstacles.
I'm not sure I've ever seen anything definitive regarding when Raynor started at NGLA or how his work there intersected with Payne's. I suspect Raynor's work at that time was more surveying than building, but I could be wrong.
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Looks like the second nine was "Revereux" Emmet___________a cousin? ;D
From: The Watchman, Mattatuck L.I.N.Y., Aug 5th, 1937
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4477/37489099586_d3fde620d2_c.jpg)
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Great find Jim! These are the kind of threads that can make golfclubatlas great again. ;D
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Joe-I’m sorry I missed this thread originally but congrats on some great research.
Jim-Congrats on putting the pieces together. Emmet designed a lot of courses on LI so I’m not shocked by that info. Great stuff man!
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Joe and Jim,
Wow, as those great amateurs Wayne and Garth often said in their NBC heyday.....EXCELLENT !
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I am pretty sure I played with a NFCC member at a fancy club on the South Fork.
This is very interesting. Are there any other Emmet/Ross courses?
Mark Chalfant?
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Very nice find, Jim. Some day I hope to see NFCC.
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Mike,
One that I know of...
http://www.hartfordgolfclub.org/club/scripts/section/section.asp?NS=PGC (http://www.hartfordgolfclub.org/club/scripts/section/section.asp?NS=PGC)
...beyond that you'll need Mark's expertise. :)
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Pretty sure Emmet and Tull renovated the DuPont private course laid out by Ross which became DuPont CC.
Ross touched up Congressional at some point.
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Mike,
One that I know of...
http://www.hartfordgolfclub.org/club/scripts/section/section.asp?NS=PGC (http://www.hartfordgolfclub.org/club/scripts/section/section.asp?NS=PGC)
...beyond that you'll need Mark's expertise. :)
Hartford is one I would have loved to play in its earliest form. So many of the original features have been removed or muted as time marched forward which is evident from the old aerial in the men's lockeroom.
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Hartford is the only one that comes to mind. The 1934 CT state aerial is superb. As Tim mentions it had some great bunkering and fewer trees !
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NFCC makes the news...
https://www.wmur.com/article/a-long-island-country-club-was-fined-17-000-for-hosting-a-wedding-where-30-guests-contracted-covid-19/34512674#
https://www.northforkcc.com/Default.aspx?p=dynamicmodule&pageid=40&ssid=100072&vnf=1
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I need to fix those links earlier in the thread from my previous web server. Be patient my friends. [EDIT: links finally fixed!]
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I've driven past North Fork several times. Slowed way down to take looks. I would very much beleive it's a Ross from my novice eye. Reminds me a little of Seaview Bay course, but presented more like 1980s. it's not choked with trees, but it definitely looks like they beautified the course with tree plantings and flower boxes over the years. The planted trees obstruct a potentially wonderful view of a body of water the East part of the property slopes down to. It has a lot of cool, again, this is from the road, but tee boxes right off greens, and greens that seem slightly pushed up and contoured. No elevation changes on property, but seems like the type of place where putting is premium. Looks like a nice place, would probably be amazing with a work over a la St Georges or Southampton. I've never played it, but would if possible.
This might be the wrong thread, but I've passed by NF a couple of times on or from rounds at Island's End in Greenport. My local muni is Montauk Downs, but really enjoy a round at Island's End from time to time. I've asked the pro shop, and emailed the pro this question with no replies, but maybe someone here knows the quick answer. Island's End Golf & Country Club is attributed to Herbert Strong; but it opened in 1962. Ariels from the 1950s confirm it was a farm until '61 or '62. Strong passed in 1944, so that can't be correct. My only lingering curiosity, having played Inwood and especially Engineers several times (love Engineers), are ther are a few greens at Island's end, the 8th, 9th, 15th, that are pretty severe and interesting. Again, novice eye here, but they seem older in intent than other 1962 era courses I've played.
Herbert Strong's wikipedia lists it as his design, as well. I've tried to find old articles, but haven't turned anything up. It's not a must play, but it is a fun public course. And, they let me take my 4 year old daughter with my wife and I playing even at 3pm on a Saturday. THAT is an amazing gesture and always make us feel welcome for a LI public golf course.
Thank you Joe for the original thread. I've often thought about North Fork CC and it's potential.
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I've driven past North Fork several times. Slowed way down to take looks. I would very much beleive it's a Ross from my novice eye. Reminds me a little of Seaview Bay course, but presented more like 1980s. it's not choked with trees, but it definitely looks like they beautified the course with tree plantings and flower boxes over the years. The planted trees obstruct a potentially wonderful view of a body of water the East part of the property slopes down to. It has a lot of cool, again, this is from the road, but tee boxes right off greens, and greens that seem slightly pushed up and contoured. No elevation changes on property, but seems like the type of place where putting is premium. Looks like a nice place, would probably be amazing with a work over a la St Georges or Southampton. I've never played it, but would if possible.
This might be the wrong thread, but I've passed by NF a couple of times on or from rounds at Island's End in Greenport. My local muni is Montauk Downs, but really enjoy a round at Island's End from time to time. I've asked the pro shop, and emailed the pro this question with no replies, but maybe someone here knows the quick answer. Island's End Golf & Country Club is attributed to Herbert Strong; but it opened in 1962. Ariels from the 1950s confirm it was a farm until '61 or '62. Strong passed in 1944, so that can't be correct. My only lingering curiosity, having played Inwood and especially Engineers several times (love Engineers), are ther are a few greens at Island's end, the 8th, 9th, 15th, that are pretty severe and interesting. Again, novice eye here, but they seem older in intent than other 1962 era courses I've played.
Herbert Strong's wikipedia lists it as his design, as well. I've tried to find old articles, but haven't turned anything up. It's not a must play, but it is a fun public course. And, they let me take my 4 year old daughter with my wife and I playing even at 3pm on a Saturday. THAT is an amazing gesture and always make us feel welcome for a LI public golf course.
Thank you Joe for the original thread. I've often thought about North Fork CC and it's potential.
Played Islands End many times and always wondered if the nines were built and/or designed at different times and builders. The front is relatively tight and wraps around itself and the back is much more wide open and spread out.
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Work is being done at NF this winter to remove some of the trees that have overgrown into the line of play. I'm excited to see the results. Bradley Klein visited this summer and I am sure he recommended such actions.
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double post, my bad.
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That's exciting about North Fork. Looking at aerials of 1954 compared to 2017, there seems to be the same routing. Way fewer trees in '54, and greens and greenside bunkers seemed way more square, with series of small bunkers ringing the greens tight. More like a Golden Era "short" idea, but in '17 much more conventional looking amoeba(y) bunkers. Just a hunch, but seems like a really fun play. Also, maybe some of the square greens and surrounding bunkers have Emmet's hand in play, if he did collaborate/contribute/conceive of the second 9?
I read a few online articles, and nothing conclusive, but on Island's End, it opens in 1960 as a 9 holer, which is the present back 9. Construction was credited to Tom Heron, "a PGA Professional", with the second 9 (present day front) added in 1963. Assuming same construction credit, but have not seen that. I can't find much on Tom Heron - PGA. I will keep working on why Herbert Stong is credited as course architect.
I really enjoy Island's End, and I think it really becomes interesting at 14. That's a short par 5 that puts you in position with a good tee shot to reach in 2 easily, but a bad tee shot means a definite lay up. 15 is a short, but no way driveable par 4 dramatically up the dune/ridge that overlooks the LI Sound. The bluff is the only elevation change on property, and 15 play up the ridge thoughfully and creatively. (Just like Seminole, right? Ha. Never played it). 15 is short, but a severe back to front green that makes being above the hole a likely 3 putt. 16 is the hole they promote the most, plays along the ridge to the East with the LI Sound all on the right. It's a punchbowl esque green that runs off the ridge from front right to back left. I'm almost always short on the 203 yd shot, and that chip to the front pin positions are nearly impossible. 17 you tee off the ridge back toward the clubhouse, par 5 with only opening on the green the front right. True 3 shotter. And a pretty epic par 4 closer on 18. They are really good golf holes. Takes awhile for the course to build up to them, but it's a fun finish.
I've had a summer home on the East End of LI for 5 years. I'm now a full time 2020-21 resident, but from what I understand, Island's End has come a long way improving it's course. People there are great, has a really cool community vibe, people having food/drink on the back patio which are steps to the range, and 10 tee box, which apparently was 1. I see plenty of good players, plenty of famllies, lots of women golfers, everyone seems pretty happy. (Don't tell anyone). I did read at one point they accepted thousands of tree species as a sanctuary. I don't think the trees overly interfere with play, but it certainly would be more interesting to trim out 50% or more of them. Just the kind of place with amazing potential, but good fun as it is currently. (you do see a few grassed over, ghost bunkers with trees growing out of them that are intriguing. Right of 13 fairway. Left of 14 fairway right at the dogleg turn.). Those restored bunkers would be more interesting to me vs the trees.
The front and back do feel different, but there are a couple of clues like 8 green and the tiers, 9 with it's dramatic front to back slope, that feel really tasteful and not the run of the mill public course presentation. Ton of those in Suffolk County, and most of them are fine, but Island's End feels like there's a deeper story there.
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NY state pulls liquor license of country club that hosted 'super spreader' wedding
Gov. Andrew Cuomo (https://thehill.com/people/andrew-cuomo) (D-N.Y.) announced on Monday that a Long Island country club’s liquor license was suspended after it hosted a “superspreader” wedding that has been linked to more than 30 cases of the coronavirus.The New York State Liquor Authority charged the North Fork Country Club with multiple charges of failing to comply with the state’s COVID-19 restrictions. The venue is currently banned from serving alcohol until the violations are addressed.
https://thehill.com/homenews/state-watch/525183-ny-state-pulls-liquor-license-of-country-club-that-hosted-super-spreader (https://thehill.com/homenews/state-watch/525183-ny-state-pulls-liquor-license-of-country-club-that-hosted-super-spreader)
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I've updated all the links from earlier and they work again!
Whoever did this research way back when was pretty good. Grin.
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A quick search using Newspapers.com also turned up another article mentioning Ross at North Fork, this from the July 1, 1912 edition of the Brooklyn Times Union:
(http://www80.homepage.villanova.edu/joseph.bausch/images/misc/NorthFork_Brooklyn_Times_Union_Mon__Jul_1__1912_.jpg)
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Thank you for all the research. I found a 1930 aerial of the course through suffolk county archives. Sorry for the small size.
(https://i.gyazo.com/8d542c919c194764fe6beecb3cccd880.png)
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Nice aerial, Cal. Any chance that can be had in a large size?
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Here is the link. It should let you zoom in on the picture.
http://digital.library.stonybrook.edu/cdm/singleitem/collection/aerial/id/205/rec/121
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Here is that 1930 aerial Cal provided but in a larger format (it is clickable to a larger size):
(http://www80.homepage.villanova.edu/joseph.bausch/images/misc/NorthFork_aerial_1930.jpg) (http://www80.homepage.villanova.edu/joseph.bausch/images/misc/NorthFork_aerial_1930.jpg)
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Here is that 1930 aerial Cal provided but in a larger format (it is clickable to a larger size):
(http://www80.homepage.villanova.edu/joseph.bausch/images/misc/NorthFork_aerial_1930.jpg) (http://www80.homepage.villanova.edu/joseph.bausch/images/misc/NorthFork_aerial_1930.jpg)
A variety of bunker schemes around the greens with some heavily guarded.
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Definitely more cross-bunkery and geometric than one would imagine from Ross, yet still very early in his design career.
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I believe Devereux Emmet added 9 holes some time during the 1920s. The exuberant bunkering seen on many holes (in 1930 aerial) may reflect Emmet's work at North Fork.
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I read a few online articles, and nothing conclusive, but on Island's End, it opens in 1960 as a 9 holer, which is the present back 9. Construction was credited to Tom Heron, "a PGA Professional", with the second 9 (present day front) added in 1963. Assuming same construction credit, but have not seen that. I can't find much on Tom Heron - PGA. I will keep working on why Herbert Stong is credited as course architect.
This one slipped by me back in October, Peter.
At least some of the credit for Island's End likely goes to Charles Martin, a course builder and designer who did lots of work on the 1960s-era Long Island courses. It's not clear if Martin designed the course or constructed it, but Herbert Strong certainly had nothing to do with Island's End, and it definitely wasn't built by Strong in 1914, as is listed in some corners of the golf web. Aerial photos disprove that.
His work began well before the '60s. Golfdom magazine claimed in 1965 that Martin's reach extended to 90 percent of the golf courses open in Westchester and on Long Island at the time, either as a builder, designer or restoration specialist.
Might not pertain to Island's End, but Martin told Newsday in 2010, "It is a great shame when a person's work is credited to someone else."
https://www.golfonlongisland.com/teebox/2016/06/remembering-charles-k-martin-prominent-long-island-golf-course-designer.html (https://www.golfonlongisland.com/teebox/2016/06/remembering-charles-k-martin-prominent-long-island-golf-course-designer.html)