Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture Discussion Group => Topic started by: Michael Goldstein on May 06, 2015, 03:03:23 AM
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I'm a huge fan of the Machrie. Twice I have traveled there and these trips have been some of my all time favourite golfing experiences.
I have planned to bring a group of antipodeans there for a 2 day binge of pure golf and fine whiskey. Probably more of the former if that's believable.
Yesterday I heard second hand that there has / will be significant redesign of every hole at The Machrie. Apparently there are no more blind shots which seems like it must involve some dramatic changes to routing and a severe departure from the original design.
The website is conspicuously silent so I was wondering if anyone had any more information they could share.
I have seen that RAW Golf Design was engaged to make the initial changes. I thought this was just to a couple of holes but their twitter account looks like it's significantly more.
The Machrie fitted my tastes (admittedly not inside the ordinary bell curve). The only course by RAW Design that I have played - Archerfield - was certainly not my cup of tea.
Naturally when traveling so far I want to maximise my enjoyment every day of the trip and so any advice on what's happening at the Machrie would be very helpful in making a call on whether we still go there.
PS - any suggestions as a replacement location for the trip would be cool. I've already planned 2 nights in Campbeltown and 2 nights on Uist as well as a couple of the more well trodden places.
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Huggan was there recently and approved of the work. John is a good judge in my experience.
http://www.scotsman.com/sport/golf/top-stories/john-huggan-distance-no-object-at-machrie-on-islay-1-3761638 (http://www.scotsman.com/sport/golf/top-stories/john-huggan-distance-no-object-at-machrie-on-islay-1-3761638)
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As I will be on Islay in two days I'll get back to this topic as soon as I know something definite or perhaps indefinite.
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Huggan was there recently and approved of the work. John is a good judge in my experience.
http://www.scotsman.com/sport/golf/top-stories/john-huggan-distance-no-object-at-machrie-on-islay-1-3761638 (http://www.scotsman.com/sport/golf/top-stories/john-huggan-distance-no-object-at-machrie-on-islay-1-3761638)
Difference here Adam is that he hasn't seen much of the work because it isn't built yet.... Sounds quite radical. Some quite bravado descriptions in that short piece.
Seeing as I haven't visited, I've no frame of reference however.
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As I will be on Islay in two days I'll get back to this topic as soon as I know something definite or perhaps indefinite.
Look forward to your report.
What I will never understand is why when a course is unique, charming, thrilling, and yes different (in a great way) that the operators will go to great expense to make it more like everywhere else.
All the place needed was bathing water that wasn't black, a coat of paint on the prison wardlike outbuildings, and a couple more passes with the rough mower to restore original fairway/non native lines.
Heavy sigh
Fingers crossed
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I've no idea whether the extensive changes as outlined will produce a better, or more interesting/fun course but I definitely want to play the "old" course before it becomes no longer. I'd hate to have someone tell me in a few years time "you should have seen the old layout, what a course!".
Time to organise a visit.
Niall
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I think you're a bit late Niall - they've been hard at work for a good few months now.
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Darn - thought this was a thread about Dottie Pepper
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So we already lost 5 of the original Campbell holes in the late '70s and now were losing them all?! This makes me a little nervous, a little sad, and a lot more likely to skip it altogether when, and if, I ever get to that part of Scotland. If they're trying to attract more tourist dollars, they might consider that it's the historic old links experience, blind shots and all, that moves the dial with many of us foreigners. "The older holes are what make it worthwhile - - the sunken half-pipe green on the 3rd, the skinny, sideways 9th and twice blind par fours like the 6th and the 8th" (CG) Once they've modernized, modified, toughened up and branded all the links courses and built a bunch of great new courses around the world, there'll be no reason whatsoever for many of us to bother making the trip. Lets see, I can drive to Sand Valley in 3+ hours to play a couple of new courses built on sand by some of the best designers working today for the price of a tank of gas or I can pay $2468 for a round trip ticket, with connections, spend 24 hours round trip, endure jetlag and customs to play a new course by a former European Tour player I've barely heard of. I guess there's always the Scotch tourist market... Who knows, maybe it'll be great and it will now be a must-play pilgrimage... :-\
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So we already lost 5 of the original Campbell holes in the late '70s and now were losing them all?! This makes me a little nervous, a little sad, and a lot more likely to skip it altogether when, and if, I ever get to that part of Scotland. If they're trying to attract more tourist dollars, they might consider that it's the historic old links experience, blind shots and all, that moves the dial with many of us foreigners. "The older holes are what make it worthwhile - - the sunken half-pipe green on the 3rd, the skinny, sideways 9th and twice blind par fours like the 6th and the 8th" (CG) Once they've modernized, modified, toughened up and branded all the links courses and built a bunch of great new courses around the world, there'll be no reason whatsoever for many of us to bother making the trip. Lets see, I can drive to Sand Valley in 3+ hours to play a couple of new courses built on sand by some of the best designers working today for the price of a tank of gas or I can pay $2468 for a round trip ticket, with connections, spend 24 hours round trip, endure jetlag and customs to play a new course by a former European Tour player I've barely heard of. I guess there's always the Scotch tourist market... Who knows, maybe it'll be great and it will now be a must-play pilgrimage... :-\
With respect, local visitor play is almost certainly far more important than intercontinental guests....
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With respect, local visitor play is almost certainly far more important than intercontinental guests....
Good thing, because that's all they might get now.
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Adam
You've got to remember the world revolves around Jud. Scotland is one big Disneyland as far as he is concerned, only here for his benefit. What he doesn't know or doesn't give a toss about is that the Machrie, like most older UK courses has been evolving since it was built. Not only was it designed by a professional golfer, but it was redesigned by another professional golfer in the mid 1920's and has probably been tweaked and redesigned several times before and since then as well. If he was to read Scott MacPhersons St Andrews book or at least read his recently posted interview he might learn something.
Niall
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Adam,
Any idea whether there was any issues with ground being SSSI ? Also, I don't suppose they are going to try and resurrect the old Spion Kop hole by any chance ?
Niall
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Don't know Niall, sorry. If you're on Twitter, Dean Muir, the head GK, is a regular poster there.
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Niall,
Is there such a thing as a course renovation in GB&I that you didn't like or didn't think was a good idea?
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And so raises the time-honoured subject of whether old, classic links courses should receive major overhauls or not… I’ve got myself in to trouble a couple of times recently stating opinions on this…. And I’ve decided that going on a large number of recent examples, it all comes back down to individual subjectivity about whether the changes “feel right” or not. There are no rights or wrongs.
Generally what I hate to see is a clear case of over-egging the amount of change needed… Plus a trend to get rid of any idiosyncratic and unusual features…
Some of these recent renovations / re-designs I’m excited about, some make my skin crawl with anger…
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Niall,
Is there such a thing as a course renovation in GB&I that you didn't like or didn't think was a good idea?
I suspect there are but can't think of any off hand. Point though is judge the proposed work on its architectural merit, not whether it would make tourists fly across Atlantic.
Niall
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Michael,
My first reaction to this was that it's very sad indeed.
This is not because changes are being made - some of those I heard about first seemed like they'd be real improvements , like a new 10th in the dunes, replacing arguably the weakest hole on the course, an altered 11th to remove the internal OB, and an altered second played largely over the same ground.
The problem is with the removal of all of the blind approaches, because the prevalence of blind shots is to me the single defining characteristic of the Machrie.
Niall, you are spot on in that like most great courses, the layout has been tweaked and redesigned over time, and that this can be a very good thing. You are also right in suggesting that the new holes may have great architectural merit - they certainly should, because I'd have thought any designer worth his salt should be able to create something pretty special on such a splendid piece of ground.
But I also fear that in a few years time you will indeed be told "you should have seen the old layout, what a course!" Not because the old layout was 'better' in any empirical sense, but because there was, and probably never will be, anything quite like it.
Andrew
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Michael,
My first reaction to this was that it's very sad indeed.
This is not because changes are being made - some of those I heard about first seemed like they'd be real improvements , like a new 10th in the dunes, replacing arguably the weakest hole on the course, an altered 11th to remove the internal OB, and an altered second played largely over the same ground.
The problem is with the removal of all of the blind approaches, because the prevalence of blind shots is to me the single defining characteristic of the Machrie.
Niall, you are spot on in that like most great courses, the layout has been tweaked and redesigned over time, and that this can be a very good thing. You are also right in suggesting that the new holes may have great architectural merit - they certainly should, because I'd have thought any designer worth his salt should be able to create something pretty special on such a splendid piece of ground.
But I also fear that in a few years time you will indeed be told "you should have seen the old layout, what a course!" Not because the old layout was 'better' in any empirical sense, but because there was, and probably never will be, anything quite like it.
Andrew
AJ
perfectly put.
I do understand that any course including The Machrie, needs a solid business plan, and that theirs wasn't working.
I just think they could have celebrated their idiosyncrasies, rather than demolishing them.
Here's hoping that the improvemnts are good enough that I'm wrong (it's happened before ;) ;))
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Checking in on what I learned during a lengthy conversation with Ian Brown. Not sure what. His connection is but he seemed knowledgeable.
The plan is to preserve much of the blindness but also to provide a means of running the ball onto the greens. He talked a lot about the ground game and the integration of tees into the existing contours. They want to avoid tees that have to have their surrounds and paths mowed by Fly-Mos.
The old tenth will done away with, and I admit that when I walked onto that tee I thought it was a temporary hole due to the work being done.
I will take a picture of the new routing and post it here in a day or two.
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Thanks for all the feedback and Andrew good to hear from you.
We've decided to not take the punt on The Machrie, and with this group of guys we will be sticking to England and then the Northern Welsh coast.
Steve, I am still very interested to hear from you in relation to the new routing and changes.
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The website is conspicuously silent so I was wondering if anyone had any more information they could share.
https://twitter.com/DJRussellgolf/media
https://twitter.com/RAWgolfdesign/media
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The website is conspicuously silent so I was wondering if anyone had any more information they could share.
https://twitter.com/DJRussellgolf/media
https://twitter.com/RAWgolfdesign/media
Niall, you and I both will be playing a completely different course when we first get there it seems.
To those who know - what were the green complexes like on The Machrie? Relatively flat or many natural, internal contours?
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I have tons of photographs and a new course map but as I am dealing with my iPad I can't determine how to get them onto GolfClubAtlas from my camera roll.
Ally,
There are some wonderful green complexes throughout the course and I think they are in the main going to be preserved. In fact, there are three greens, the 7th, 16th, and 17th that are below sea level and do not drain in wet winter conditions. Part of the master plan is to raise these greens but to use laser technology to replicate them and so preserve the wonderfully quirky and idiosyncratic qualities of them.
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I can't figure out how to post photographs from my iPad to GCA. I can do photos to emails so I'm looking for a volunteer to receive emails with photos.
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From Steve Wilson...
This shows the extension of the 2nd further along the burn and the creation of a new par 3 to replace the 5th which is being taken out of the rotation. The holes along the sea will be unchanged except for their numbering. The 8th is going to be altered to play along the top of the dunes. The new 9th will play in am opposite direction back into the dunes and so the existing ninth which is certainly the poorest hole on the course will be gone. The awfulness of the hole is difficult to describe in that it lacks imagination, challenge, or a pleasing appearance.
The new 10 and 11 are going to cross over the burn and it's not possible to speak of their merits as they are not yet even in the dirt yet. The remaining changes on the back consist of providing an alternate route into the fifteenth (less blind) and bring the 18th closer to the hotel. The stated. Philosophy is to retain the blindness but present longer but more open approaches. The intentions are to complete the hotel by 2017 and the course by 2018.
(https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-KQsxK0fFpsI/VVPQSodUUPI/AAAAAAAAKG4/Y_6x-jhlzMw/w727-h543-no/machrie1.jpg)
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Mike and Steve,
Thanks for the plan, though it doesnt mean too much to me as I've not been there yet. I've been planning on a trip to Islay for a while, so as I've missed out playing the course in its previous guise, I may as well wait till its done...
Have I missed it in this thread? When are they planning on finishing the works?
A related query regarding RAW (which I think I may have asked on here previously?) Their website mentions a Derbyshire course. Does anyone know anything about it?
Cheers,
James
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I'm a huge fan of the Machrie. Twice I have traveled there and these trips have been some of my all time favourite golfing experiences.
I have planned to bring a group of antipodeans there for a 2 day binge of pure golf and fine whiskey. Probably more of the former if that's believable.
Yesterday I heard second hand that there has / will be significant redesign of every hole at The Machrie. Apparently there are no more blind shots which seems like it must involve some dramatic changes to routing and a severe departure from the original design.
The website is conspicuously silent so I was wondering if anyone had any more information they could share.
I have seen that RAW Golf Design was engaged to make the initial changes. I thought this was just to a couple of holes but their twitter account looks like it's significantly more.
The Machrie fitted my tastes (admittedly not inside the ordinary bell curve). The only course by RAW Design that I have played - Archerfield - was certainly not my cup of tea.
Naturally when traveling so far I want to maximise my enjoyment every day of the trip and so any advice on what's happening at the Machrie would be very helpful in making a call on whether we still go there.
PS - any suggestions as a replacement location for the trip would be cool. I've already planned 2 nights in Campbeltown and 2 nights on Uist as well as a couple of the more well trodden places.
Goldy,
I hope you're well. You're always welcome in Boston, Newcomb would be happy to see you at another TDMS dinner.
It sounds like you may already be headed to Askernish; if you had a little bit of time. I would go down to St. Enodoc in the west country. I played there last summer and its fabulous. Very charming little town as well.
Otherwise, if it's old Scottish links that you want, Cruden Bay is one of my favorite courses anywhere.
Regards,
Andrew
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Askernish, Cruden Bay and St Enodoc ! Why not go the whole hog and play somewhere in Norfolk as well. I've just spent 3 days playing Leven, Glasgow Gailes and Panmure in that order and that was manageable but I hate to think of the travelling involved between the western isles, Cornwall and the north east of Scotland. All good courses to be sure but perhaps doing them all on the one trip might not be the best idea.
Niall
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You're right, of course Niall, but if your starting point is New Zealand then suddenly the distances probably don't look quite so big. And perhaps your priorities change.
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Never realised Machrie only has 3 par 3 holes.
Strange, most classic (links) courses usually have 4-5 par 3 holes......
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Thank you Adam, I was just being curmudgeonly, I apologise.
Frank
Thats an interesting observation and probably worthy of a thread on its own right. I think I'm right in saying that Willie Park advocated only 3 par 3's and certainly Glasgow Gailes which Park had a hand in redesigning in 1912 only has 3 par 3's. Moray Old at Lossiemouth has only 3 par 3's also and that was after Colt paid a visit in the early 1920's.
Re Machrie, bare in mind that they lost Mount Zion when the farmer claimed the land back so there probably was 4 par 3's at some point. I haven't been there but I believe the green formation is still there.
Niall
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Thank you Adam, I was just being curmudgeonly, I apologise.
Frank
Thats an interesting observation and probably worthy of a thread on its own right. I think I'm right in saying that Willie Park advocated only 3 par 3's and certainly Glasgow Gailes which Park had a hand in redesigning in 1912 only has 3 par 3's. Moray Old at Lossiemouth has only 3 par 3's also and that was after Colt paid a visit in the early 1920's.
Re Machrie, bare in mind that they lost Mount Zion when the farmer claimed the land back so there probably was 4 par 3's at some point. I haven't been there but I believe the green formation is still there.
Niall
Good point Niall. Where I think many Links balance out fewer par 3s is in having multiple short par 4s. Look at TOC with only 2 par 3s but 7, 9, 10, 12, 16 & 18 all being short and drivable in the right conditions.
Jon
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Probably off topic but thought I'd give a quick update of the itinerary:
Part 1: Prestwick, Shiskine, Traigh, Askernish, Harris (TBC), Muirfield, St Andrews (ballot), one other TBC.
Part 2: Formby, Birkdale, Hoylake (TBC), North Wales, Nefyn, Bulls Bay, St David's, Aberdovey, Tenby, Pennard, Porthcawl, New Zealand Club.
Looking forward to some new courses in Wales and some old favourites. Any recommendations welcome as there's some flexibility in Wales.
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Wonderful itinerary.
If you are in the Liverpool area, I recommend adding Wallasey. I have never understood why it is overlooked so often by Americans.
Bob
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Where I think many Links balance out fewer par 3s is in having multiple short par 4s. Look at TOC with only 2 par 3s but 7, 9, 10, 12, 16 & 18 all being short and drivable in the right conditions.
Jon
There are some older courses in USA that seem to go the opposite direction with uber-long Par 3's rather than fewer 3's and add some short 4's. For that matter Harlech has an extra Par 3 that is extra-long.
I'm good either way. What I like is to have something in that 200-300 range whether they are deemed 3's or 4's.
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Thanks Bob.
I've played Wallasey a few years ago although it's a bit of a blur as I had a couple of Kummel's the night before.
Traveling tomorrow and getting pretty excited, going to be a great final week of my 20s.