Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture Discussion Group => Topic started by: Don Mahaffey on February 15, 2015, 09:57:29 AM
-
With all the talk about developing a replica of The Lido, I'm curious to learn of replica architecture or art that has been successful, or positively received.
I did a replica architecture search and found entire cities in China replicated after European cities. Austrian mountain villages, Dutch towns complete with wooden shoes and windmills. Iconic American buildings part of the Shanghai skyline.
I can't imagine replica art would be all that well received. Although I have to admit I wonder how Mcconaughey would play Brando's part in a remake of the original Godfather, but who would do Coppola's job?
While not exactly enthralled with the idea of replica golf courses I am asking a serious question. Are there good examples of replica art/architecture out there? And if the Lido is replicated, and a commercial success, what next? ANGC, TOC?
Will the developers be viewed as visionaries or rip off artists?
-
Don,
I don't feel like a replica of ANGC would work as well, since everyone playing it would know that the real thing is out there. Lido seems like a unique situation where you are being let behind the curtain of this legend, almost folk lore.
-
Surely turning a phosphate mine into an uber successful golf resort, Lido replica or otherwise, would be considered visionary.
-
Surely turning a phosphate mine into an uber successful golf resort, Lido replica or otherwise, would be considered visionary.
And so would creating gondola rides in the Nevada desert.
-
Surely turning a phosphate mine into an uber successful golf resort, Lido replica or otherwise, would be considered visionary.
Eric, I like the Streamsong courses a lot, but that is not really the question is it? If it is, then is it construction prowess that makes a visionary?
-
Surely turning a phosphate mine into an uber successful golf resort, Lido replica or otherwise, would be considered visionary.
Eric, I like the Streamsong courses a lot, but that is not really the question is it? If it is, then is it construction prowess that makes a visionary?
Well, we know that good spelling does not make a visionary.
-
My computer is a shitty speler
-
Don, there's a TED Talk on this subject that I watched a few weeks ago. You can find it here, in transcript and in video form: http://www.ted.com/talks/paul_bloom_the_origins_of_pleasure/transcript?language=en. It's a short watch and an even shorter read.
The talk explores how people's tastes in everything from art to fast food are influenced by pedigree and originality. The first thing it discusses is the value of original paintings vs. forgings, and how people will spend hundreds of thousands or even millions of dollars more on an original than on a virtually identical forged painting. There's no real conclusion drawn for why, but the idea offered by Bloom is that we value things with a specific history that we can associate with an act of creativity.
As I watched it, I kept thinking about things like the potential Lido project, as well as the many biases that show themselves in the tastes espoused in this forum and the golf world in general.
-
I didn't understand the Lido thread at all. I still don't. The whole idea seems lifeless to me, worse so because it is posited by supposed true lovers of the form and in the presumed cause of resurrecting greatness. The notion that replicating (i.e. these specifications and those angles and that flow) can and will add up to -- as in a precise and objective mathematical problem -- a definite and definable answer/solution (in this case to great architecture) seems to me to missing the entire point of gca as a living, responsive and ever unique art and craft. Such an idea (replication) is a sign not of an art and craft vibrantly reaching towards its zenith, but of one in serious decline -- moribund and too self conscious, self absorbed, and self reflective, such that what's in our heads (ideas, and our own pet theories) is ultimately more exciting to us than what's in the ground (new design expressions).
Peter
-
Don,
30, 40 and 50 years ago I bet you could name every make, model and year of every car you saw.
Today, it would seem that it's far more difficult to identify make, model and year as the cars all seem like replicas of one another.
Perhaps that has to do with fuel efficiency and aerodynamics, but cars seem to be more like replicas than originals.
Beauty queen contestants, TV's, Playboy Bunnies all seem like replicas to some.
A great many art works are copied in print form
Didn't Shakespeare state that "imitation was the sincerest form of flattery"
If a golf hole, building, painting or sculpture possesses intrinsic qualities that are widely/greatly admired, why would replication be a negative ?
I think Eric's point is very valid
Replicating TOC would be relatively easy, as would replicating any relatively flat course.
Replicating ANGC or NGLA would be far more difficult due to their unique terrain.
Forgetting the legal aspects for a second, pretend that I found land identical to the land at Augusta just outside of Charlotte, NC and built an almost exact replica of ANGC.
1. Do you think it would be a successful resort course
2. Do you think it would be a successful public course
3. Do you think it would be a successful private course
Same question on NGLA, located near the bay outside of Atlantic City.
Your question is similar to one I've asked myself for over 20 years.
Why didn't someone try to replicate GCGC ?
Given that the bunker design mandates unique drainage, i've been puzzled by that for decades.
-
Jason - I think that point you offer via Bloom, i.e. "that we value things with a specific history that we can associate with an act of creativity" is very astute.
Peter
-
Don,
IMHO a replica in golf course architecture is like putting a Jennifer Anniston hair style on Rosie Odonnell. It might be the same but it ain't the same.
There are just too many variables as you know. Whether it be wind direction, feet above sea level, drop from tee to green or fairway and it just continues.
-
Don,
I would consider music to be an art form. The greatest hits are copied all the time. Sometimes for better, sometimes for worse.
Bret
-
Don, there's a TED Talk on this subject that I watched a few weeks ago. You can find it here, in transcript and in video form: http://www.ted.com/talks/paul_bloom_the_origins_of_pleasure/transcript?language=en. It's a short watch and an even shorter read.
The talk explores how people's tastes in everything from art to fast food are influenced by pedigree and originality. The first thing it discusses is the value of original paintings vs. forgings, and how people will spend hundreds of thousands or even millions of dollars more on an original than on a virtually identical forged painting. There's no real conclusion drawn for why, but the idea offered by Bloom is that we value things with a specific history that we can associate with an act of creativity.
As I watched it, I kept thinking about things like the potential Lido project, as well as the many biases that show themselves in the tastes espoused in this forum and the golf world in general.
Jason, I'm a dedicated TEDster.
NPR's TED radio hour is the #1 podcast in my library. There is a recent podcast titled "Brand over Brain" that I found very interesting. Bloom's talk is incorporated in the hour long "What is Original?" from June 2014, It ties in nicely with some of the themes from "brand over Brain".
Another favorite is "the Source of Creativity".
-
Surely turning a phosphate mine into an uber successful golf resort, Lido replica or otherwise, would be considered visionary.
And so would creating gondola rides in the Nevada desert.
So was Walt Disney a visionary or just another copy cat?
-
IMO building a replica of something that currently exist (ANGC, Pine Valley, CPC, etc) is a worthless cause b/c it actually exists, while replicating something that has long been lost (Lido, the original Biarritz course, etc) is a worthwhile cause b/c they haven't existed in most of our lifetimes, but carry significant historical & architectural importance.
-
Surely turning a phosphate mine into an uber successful golf resort, Lido replica or otherwise, would be considered visionary.
And so would creating gondola rides in the Nevada desert.
So was Walt Disney a visionary or just another copy cat?
Wasn't he both?
Success changes people
-
I didn't understand the Lido thread at all. I still don't.
I would have thought the point of the Lido thread would have been fairly obvious, an exploration of the original course to give us a bit more context in discussing the current thoughts of building a new version (whether a replica or an homage). What has surprised me about the entire conversation is that there has been little willingness to discuss the actual golf course. Not its condition, the state of its founders interest or the type of facility the Lido was, but the actual golf holes, the shot values, the challenges and the type of golf it represented.
What I think you meant is that you don't understand why the original should be recreated. Judging by the mixed opinions offered during the last couple of weeks, its an opinion that is shared by some, but not all. What I find extremely interesting is that the entire project has been derided without anyone really knowing the specifics of the plans. We don't know if it is going to be an exact replication, or if the architect chosen (and there already is a name guy involved with the project) is going to do his best to create a modern version of the course on the land he is given to work with.
At this point, I know enough about the proposed project to think that the involved parties are worthy of our trust. And I also think the golf that was played on Lido would make for very interesting golf today, whether it was a to scale reproduction or just a vague reference to the original.
Sven
-
Surely turning a phosphate mine into an uber successful golf resort, Lido replica or otherwise, would be considered visionary.
And so would creating gondola rides in the Nevada desert.
So was Walt Disney a visionary or just another copy cat?
Wasn't he both?
Success changes people
I would agree he was both. And I agree wrt success. I do not think a Lido stand alone project would be ideal, but in this situation, at this time, with these people behind it, the Lido is a brilliant play.
-
:-X
-
I didn't understand the Lido thread at all. I still don't.
I would have thought the point of the Lido thread would have been fairly obvious, an exploration of the original course to give us a bit more context in discussing the current thoughts of building a new version (whether a replica or an homage). What has surprised me about the entire conversation is that there has been little willingness to discuss the actual golf course. Not its condition, the state of its founders interest or the type of facility the Lido was, but the actual golf holes, the shot values, the challenges and the type of golf it represented.
What I think you meant is that you don't understand why the original should be recreated. Judging by the mixed opinions offered during the last couple of weeks, its an opinion that is shared by some, but not all. What I find extremely interesting is that the entire project has been derided without anyone really knowing the specifics of the plans. We don't know if it is going to be an exact replication, or if the architect chosen (and there already is a name guy involved with the project) is going to do his best to create a modern version of the course on the land he is given to work with.
At this point, I know enough about the proposed project to think that the involved parties are worthy of our trust. And I also think the golf that was played on Lido would make for very interesting golf today, whether it was a to scale reproduction or just a vague reference to the original.
Sven
Sven, are you involved in the project?
-
No.
-
Copy/paste historians endorsing copy/paste architecture.
-
Never heard of a drive by sniper architect, but I'm sure they exist.
-
Don--
I have been rooting for a reborn Lido to be built for many years now. It's the one classic course that was much talked about that is totally gone. It would be neat to see it recreated and frankly I was hoping that it was going to be build on the site that became Old MacDonald at Bandon.
There are a couple of things that have popped to my mind that I don't think have been discussed here that need to be mentioned.
1. If it's going to be at Streamsong, then it will obviously not be a seaside site like the original. That means the winds that are prevalent on the south shore of Long Island will not be the same in South Central Florida. They may attempt to route it in a direction where the winds will be comparable. From a setting standpoint though, the only the thing they cannot replicate is the setting of the Biarritz with the ocean to the right. Admittedly, the original Lido was site was totally created from a swamp, so it's not like you have recreate some great piece of property..... although if it does happen, I look forward to seeing how they pull the Alps off.
2. Being as it's in Florida, the grasses will be different. If memory serves, the grass used in the rough at the original Lido was something pretty unique and was extremely difficult to play from and of course, the fairways in Florida will be Bermuda. They have been able to achieve firm ground conditions at Streamsong so they may be able to come up with a similar type firmness that we see at NGLA.
3. I know a person whose father played the original Lido and the comment made about it that was forwarded to me was that, "it was a very hard course." Can the resort player handle a really tough course and will they be willing to play it again? It's too early to tell whether Streamsong will work as well as Bandon has in the long haul, but it looks like the clientele there is different than say at Pinehurst, Pebble Beach or the Greenbrier and is the avid player that appears more at Bandon.
4. Lido is the one course that I think could be replicated for the most part because the original was basically built on a clean slate. The original site was a swamp and they had to create it. The legend of Peter Lees first look at the site tells it all. Recreating ANGC, NGLA, or even GCGC in whole would be nearly impossible or grossly expensive because you'd have to totally create the landforms and ANGC and NGLA both have significant hills that would need to be created or positioned perfectly. Lido was totally created from nothing so it would seem that it would be easier to create than the other courses mentioned. Outside of the Alps, do those responsible have any idea how much movement the course had and is the original model that appeared in The Evangelist of Golf still exist to give them something to work off of?
Of course, it's a replica so a perfect duplicate is not what Mr. Keiser is after. I was hoping that they could find a site in the Northeast to pull this off, something close to sea preferably, but sites large enough to do it are very few and farther between today and are uber expensive. I've always wanted to see a "Channel" Hole and a "Raynor's Prize Dogleg" (although Dr. G tells me 6 at Southampton GC is one) I hope they can pull it off!
I'm sure Mr. Mucci will give me an earful about my thoughts. ;D
-
replicating something that has long been lost (Lido, the original Biarritz course, etc) is a worthwhile cause b/c they haven't existed in most of our lifetimes, but carry significant historical & architectural importance.
Only if it's a worthy replica. Otherwise you are just stealing the brand of an old course, and demeaning it at the same time.
The question is whether you can build a worthy replica of what was one of the greatest courses in America, without the site that Adam describes above.
-
Incidentally, I'm looking at signing up to do a new project on dead flat land right now. I suppose I could just beat everyone to the punch and try to replicate the Lido -- apparently nobody owns the copyright -- but that is the furthest thing from my mind.
Also, FYI, the Japanese tried to build a replica of St. Andrews in the 1970's. On hilly land! And somewhere in Thailand there is a replica of the back nine at Augusta National. Except it's dead flat!
-
For those concerned about 'replicating" the wind on Long island for the Lido.
When they the 2010 US mid Am was held at The Bridge (on Long Island) on one day the field was hitting driver, three wood to the par 4 6th, followed by driver, L wedge to the par 5 7th.
The other day the wind blew the complete opposite, rendering the par 5 7th unreachable, and the 6th to driver short iron.
In the playoff for stroke play on the third day, players were laying up with their second shots on the par 4 first, after hitting driver LW in one of the rounds before.
So which wind are they supposed to replicate?
and if they didn't, who would know? and what exactly would they base that on. and would it even matter.
the wind definitely blows at Streamsong
Tough to look at a picture or an aeriel and tell the wind direction on a given day in 1930
.
-
From my experiences on Long Island, and I think it's mentioned in the Confidential Guide as well, that the prevailing winds tend to be from 180 degree opposite directions. I've played with members of NGLA who have described certain winds, like a due east or due west wind as "unusual." Winds are a finicky thing for sure, I've had wood left for my approach into 9 at Shinnecock and next day come in with a wedge... ditto 10 at Seminole. As I said in my earlier post, given the size of the property and a probable clean slate, they can probably route the course in such a way to replicate the prevailing wind on the South Shore.
If Streamsong Black is going to be a replica of Lido, it will be a very interesting project to see the thought processes and how the design and construction process plays out.
-
From my experiences on Long Island, and I think it's mentioned in the Confidential Guide as well, that the prevailing winds tend to be from 180 degree opposite directions. . . .
If Streamsong Black is going to be a replica of Lido, it will be a very interesting project to see the thought processes and how the design and construction process plays out.
It is true in a lot of places that the two most common winds are from opposite directions. At Barnbougle or Muirfield the wind normally blows from the west, but 20% of the time it blows from the east, and the shot values change completely. At Crystal Downs the wind blows from the north when the weather is nice, but it starts coming from the south when a storm is headed across the lake.
One note: Streamsong Black is Gil Hanse's course, and I don't think that is the one where they are thinking of Lido. The speculation is all about course #4, whenever that is to happen.
-
Tom--
That's what I understand too in regards in Streamsong Black and a potential course 4. My comments are relative to comment I read elsewhere that Gil's Black Course being a Lido replica.
-
http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,1604.0.html
Replica golf course discussion from 10 years ago
-
Tom--
That's what I understand too in regards in Streamsong Black and a potential course 4. My comments are relative to comments earlier in this thread that Gil's Black Course being a Lido replica.
Where is that post? I must be a lousy reader.
-
Incidentally, I'm looking at signing up to do a new project on dead flat land right now. I suppose I could just beat everyone to the punch and try to replicate the Lido -- apparently nobody owns the copyright -- but that is the furthest thing from my mind.
Of course it's the furthest thing from your mind - you're a living, breathing architect at the height of his creative powers, not a robot programmed to replicate someone's else 'signature' like an auto-pen!
I'd be worried about the architect who WOULD take on the 'task' of replicating Lido. Besides the fact that it wouldn't work (either as a golf course or as a marketing tool -- such that said architect would be forever pegged a two-time loser), ten minutes after it was done some writer/poster would be gleefully suggesting that the 24th century world of the Star Trek "Holodeck" had arrived -- and the architect would then spend the rest of his days at Sci Fi conventions with geeks in green masks droning on about 'the future possibilities' of design.
I wouldn't want that for you, Tom, and I don't think you would be very happy. I think you should stick to building original designs, despite how hard they are to market and how poorly the may end up being received.
Peter
-
This was an interesting post from the older thread:
George Bahto
Guest
Re: Replica courses article in Links Magazine
« Reply #35 on: January 11, 2003, 06:56:45 PM »
For what it’s worth, just a word about replica courses.
At the “advanced” age of 70 (hah) I had the opportunity to design and built a course based on architecture of the Golden Age. I never dreamed of ever doing that - I had never even given a thought about doing such a thing.
For a novice, it was a most satisfying experience - a chance to demonstrate what I had researched over the past few years, more important, a chance to honor an architect who had been in the shadows, nearly unknown, for so many years.
To see your one-dimensional drawing talk a life of its own was an incredible feeling.
That said - I would never want to do a replica course again!
I love restoration work.
I would be interested to know if another novice, arm-chair architects, if given an opportunity, would turn such an opportunity down ....... all things being equal - I doubt it
-
ten minutes after it was done some writer/poster would be gleefully suggesting that the 24th century world of the Star Trek "Holodeck" had arrived -- and the architect would then spend the rest of his days at Sci Fi conventions with geeks in green masks droning on about 'the future possibilities' of design.
They wouldn't wait until it was done. Just yesterday I fielded a call from a potential client [not the one referenced earlier] who wanted to know if I could build another reversible course for them. I'm not even half done trying to figure out if I can build the first one!
Likewise, the Lido concept is being discussed to death before anyone has committed to making the attempt. I hope the trial balloons work out better for the golfers than for political constituents.
-
Tom--
That's what I understand too in regards in Streamsong Black and a potential course 4. My comments are relative to comments earlier in this thread that Gil's Black Course being a Lido replica.
Where is that post? I must be a lousy reader.
Tom--
I've corrected myself. The comment was posted on another site.
As an aside, I find it amazing that you guys can go back and forth between threads and not get stuff mixed up.
-
Lido had quite a reputation in its day. Accounts of it show that it could test the best, especially in the wind ('par' actually had some meaning), but wasn't impossible for the rest.
I've asked myself these two questions: 1 - If Lido had made it through the myriad of issues that forced it to close, would it still be relevant today? And 2 - If Lido had made it to 2015 but had been so neglected that nothing short of a major restoration would bring it back, would I (or anyone else who appreciates the restoration of top notch courses) think it would be worth restoring?
My answer was yes to both questions. The first - because Lido was right up there with the best of its day, and those same courses are still in the top 10 or 20 in America. The second - I think that a neglected course with that kind of potential would be worth restoring (I don't think I'd be the only one thinking that).
So I guess that leaves me squarely in the camp that believes a 'new' Lido would be relevant today, and a worthwhile endeavor.
-
My city is home to Golden Ocala and its somewhat infamous band of replica holes. When I travel for golf and mention I'm from Ocala, the response is often "Golden Ocala...that's the place with all of the replica holes, right?" It's never... "Golden Ocala...I hear that's a great golf course."
Perhaps the Lido can be both a replica and great, but getting past statement #1 seems like a tough gig.
-
Incidentally, I'm looking at signing up to do a new project on dead flat land right now. I suppose I could just beat everyone to the punch and try to replicate the Lido -- apparently nobody owns the copyright -- but that is the furthest thing from my mind.
The Mosaic attorneys are glad to hear that.
FWIW:
https://trademarks.justia.com/864/81/the-lido-at-86481901.html
Same day filing:
https://trademarks.justia.com/864/81/the-86481872.html
-
In the few years I have left to travel for golf I will be lucky if five important courses are built. A replica course will not be one of them.
-
My city is home to Golden Ocala and its somewhat infamous band of replica holes. When I travel for golf and mention I'm from Ocala, the response is often "Golden Ocala...that's the place with all of the replica holes, right?" It's never... "Golden Ocala...I hear that's a great golf course."
Perhaps the Lido can be both a replica and great, but getting past statement #1 seems like a tough gig.
Daniel-Golden Ocala replicates holes from a number of different courses while Lido would be the entire golf course. Additionally those holes come from golf courses that are all still operational while Lido has not been open for 75 years. I'm with Jim that I would love to see the project come to fruition.
-
Augusta may be in existence, but for 99.999999 of the golfing population all they ever have is the ability to gush over the course one week a year.
If ever there should be a replica course, that should be it. the reason it will not happen, is because there is something the replica will be compared to.
With Lido, they can basically do whatever they want and still call it the Lido, in Florida.
-
The Mosaic attorneys are glad to hear that.
FWIW:
https://trademarks.justia.com/864/81/the-lido-at-86481901.html
I must have lost my mind. How do you trademark something you are replicating, that's 100 years old?
-
Don--
I have been rooting for a reborn Lido to be built for many years now. It's the one classic course that was much talked about that is totally gone. It would be neat to see it recreated and frankly I was hoping that it was going to be build on the site that became Old MacDonald at Bandon.
There are a couple of things that have popped to my mind that I don't think have been discussed here that need to be mentioned.
1. If it's going to be at Streamsong, then it will obviously not be a seaside site like the original. That means the winds that are prevalent on the south shore of Long Island will not be the same in South Central Florida. They may attempt to route it in a direction where the winds will be comparable. From a setting standpoint though, the only the thing they cannot replicate is the setting of the Biarritz with the ocean to the right. Admittedly, the original Lido was site was totally created from a swamp, so it's not like you have recreate some great piece of property..... although if it does happen, I look forward to seeing how they pull the Alps off.
Adam,
There are prevailing winds at Streamsong, just like there are prevailing winds on the South Shore of Long Island.
I don't see wind direction as a design impediment
2. Being as it's in Florida, the grasses will be different. If memory serves, the grass used in the rough at the original Lido was something pretty unique and was extremely difficult to play from and of course, the fairways in Florida will be Bermuda. They have been able to achieve firm ground conditions at Streamsong so they may be able to come up with a similar type firmness that we see at NGLA.
Firmness is dependent upon Mother Nature.
In 50 years of play at NGLA, it's been F&F and it's been soft with Mother Nature determing most outcomes.
3. I know a person whose father played the original Lido and the comment made about it that was forwarded to me was that, "it was a very hard course." Can the resort player handle a really tough course and will they be willing to play it again? It's too early to tell whether Streamsong will work as well as Bandon has in the long haul, but it looks like the clientele there is different than say at Pinehurst, Pebble Beach or the Greenbrier and is the avid player that appears more at Bandon.
I don't know that I'd call either the Red or the Blue, "Pushovers"
As to difficulty, that's usually a function of the intended user.
Pine Valley certainly caters to a different golfer than "The Breakers" in Palm Beach.
Tee selection also plays a big factor in difficulty.
Anyone who's played the back tees at Pine Valley or The Medalist can attest to that.
4. Lido is the one course that I think could be replicated for the most part because the original was basically built on a clean slate. The original site was a swamp and they had to create it. The legend of Peter Lees first look at the site tells it all. Recreating ANGC, NGLA, or even GCGC in whole would be nearly impossible or grossly expensive because you'd have to totally create the landforms and ANGC and NGLA both have significant hills that would need to be created or positioned perfectly. Lido was totally created from nothing so it would seem that it would be easier to create than the other courses mentioned. Outside of the Alps, do those responsible have any idea how much movement the course had and is the original model that appeared in The Evangelist of Golf still exist to give them something to work off of?
Lido was, and is today, a generally flat site.
Hole replication would not be challenged by the terrain.
Of course, it's a replica so a perfect duplicate is not what Mr. Keiser is after. I was hoping that they could find a site in the Northeast to pull this off, something close to sea preferably, but sites large enough to do it are very few and farther between today and are uber expensive. I've always wanted to see a "Channel" Hole and a "Raynor's Prize Dogleg" (although Dr. G tells me 6 at Southampton GC is one) I hope they can pull it off!
I'm sure Mr. Mucci will give me an earful about my thoughts. ;D
You rang ?
I think we're pretty much in agreement.
The key is: Will it be a physical replica or a concept replica. Like you, I'd opt for the physical replica.
-
Incidentally, I'm looking at signing up to do a new project on dead flat land right now. I suppose I could just beat everyone to the punch and try to replicate the Lido -- apparently nobody owns the copyright -- but that is the furthest thing from my mind.
Tom, that's understandable, but, if the owner/developer instructed you to craft a replica of Lido, I don't see you balking at the opportunity, especially after the splendid job you did at Old Macdonald.
Also, FYI, the Japanese tried to build a replica of St. Andrews in the 1970's. On hilly land! And somewhere in Thailand there is a replica of the back nine at Augusta National. Except it's dead flat!
-
Incidentally, I'm looking at signing up to do a new project on dead flat land right now. I suppose I could just beat everyone to the punch and try to replicate the Lido -- apparently nobody owns the copyright -- but that is the furthest thing from my mind.
Tom, that's understandable, but, if the owner/developer instructed you to craft a replica of Lido, I don't see you balking at the opportunity, especially after the splendid job you did at Old Macdonald.
You're not watching very closely, then, because I've pretty much already done just that.
-
Tom, I know that my eyes aren't keen, and now, my reading comprehension must also be going because I didn't catch the gist of your last post.
Please elaborate.
Thanks
-
It is interesting from Jason's post how the cognoscenti will deal with this course, when and if it happens. We may all turn our noses up at Royal Links in Vegas and the Ross tribute course at Boyne, but those are fun courses for the average travelling golfer to play. I'm guessing with the level of quality that Streamsong and Keiser are known for, that this will be a replica course the likes of which we perhaps haven't seen. I'm willing to wait to see who's involved and what the final product is before dismissing it prematurely as a mere curiosity.
-
Is Keiser involved at Streamsong? That would be good news.
-
Incidentally, I'm looking at signing up to do a new project on dead flat land right now. I suppose I could just beat everyone to the punch and try to replicate the Lido -- apparently nobody owns the copyright -- but that is the furthest thing from my mind.
Tom, that's understandable, but, if the owner/developer instructed you to craft a replica of Lido, I don't see you balking at the opportunity, especially after the splendid job you did at Old Macdonald.
You're not watching very closely, then, because I've pretty much already done just that.
Are you saying you've already turned down the job to do Lido?
-
It is interesting from Jason's post how the cognoscenti will deal with this course, when and if it happens. We may all turn our noses up at Royal Links in Vegas and the Ross tribute course at Boyne, but those are fun courses for the average travelling golfer to play. I'm guessing with the level of quality that Streamsong and Keiser are known for, that this will be a replica course the likes of which we perhaps haven't seen. I'm willing to wait to see who's involved and what the final product is before dismissing it prematurely as a mere curiosity.
Jud T,
I would ask the Naysayers: How did Keiser's concept replica course turn out at Old Macdonald ?
From all I've heard, it's been extremely well received and highly regarded.
Why would anyone expect less at Streamsong ?
-
I guess the issue Pat is that Old Mac was a reimagining of the template holes with a fair amount of creative license to do what fit the land etc. (i.e. the Biarritz). The presumption here is that plans are available to essentially do an exact replica. Not saying it's a good or bad thing, just that that's the creative question at hand. Now obviously even if you're doing a very faithful recreation there's still a lot of small details that you need to get right, but the question remains to what level are exact plans available and how closely are they going to adhere to them. According to quotes from George they're pretty specific, but Sven's posts seem to imply otherwise, vis-a-vis grades, depths of bunkers, heights of greens etc. It will be a fascinating process to follow if nothing else, and potentially a very interesting addition to what Streamsong already has.
-
I recall a quote (where I can't remember) from Mike Keiser saying that George told him if he wanted to build Lido he could give him plans to the 1/4 inch.
I think Sven was referring to CBM's remarks that they never followed his plans to a "T" (fairway movement, etc.) when the course was originally built.
-
So, do you hire a guy who doesn't build to plan, to build a course to a plan, and use the plan even though it wasn't followed to build the the original course?
I think it a good question.
-
One aspect to the measure of success (whatever your definition is: financial, rankings, minimum 200 separate Golf Club Atlas threads in 4 weeks) that I haven't seen discussed much in terms of the Lido concept is the fact that is being planned as part of an existing facility. There is already a current client base that will still play streamsong with or without Lido. The inclusion of it may increase the number of people visiting the resort but is hard to measure what impact it really will have.
It is a much safer experiment to recreate or reimagine the course in this scenario than it would be to do it as a standalone project but as the same time that makes it tougher to gauge how well it will really be received.
-
Received? Its Kaiser on sand with big money behind him, it'll be received like the savior of golf.
That's not the question.
The question is: will it be any good? Will it measure up to the legend of Lido?
-
Received? Its Kaiser on sand with big money behind him, it'll be received like the savior of golf.
That's not the question.
The question is: will it be any good? Will it measure up to the legend of Lido?
Will your questions be tabled if you feel confident in the choice of architect?
For example, if Doak had not turned the job down and you were to find out he was designing it, would you feel better? Certainly you'd still have some questions but would you feel more confident than you do now?
-
Received? Its Kaiser on sand with big money behind him, it'll be received like the savior of golf.
That's not the question.
The question is: will it be any good? Will it measure up to the legend of Lido?
Will it be any good? Probably very good. Unfortunately I don't think your going to find anyone who will have played them both and can offer up confirmation as to whether the new version is as good as the old.
-
Don,
That is a good question. CBM said that towards the end of the fill the company didn't carry out the *contours exactly, but on the other hand he praised Seth Raynor for all his exacting work making sure the hills and hummocks and undulations would all fit in as well as possible to the plan.
Who knows how inexact it really was. As George said, CB wasn't into raising any of his courses above, or even to the same level, as NGLA.
*George:
"one of the main reasons CBM was disappointed with the end result of the Lido course and it contractors was that so much money was spent on the landfill operation many of the finite features that were supposed to go onto the course were eliminated .... most notable the ideas he had about the various (different) ripples the fairways were supposed to get.
-
Received? Its Kaiser on sand with big money behind him, it'll be received like the savior of golf.
That's not the question.
The question is: will it be any good? Will it measure up to the legend of Lido?
Will your questions be tabled if you feel confident in the choice of architect?
For example, if Doak had not turned the job down and you were to find out he was designing it, would you feel better? Certainly you'd still have some questions but would you feel more confident than you do now?
The more I think about it I'm not a fan of the idea no matter the architect. I like Mike DeVries a lot, I'm friends with Tom Doak and Andy Staples, and Nuzzo and I are close to BFFs. But I'm not a fan of this idea no matter the chosen one and I think I'll probably puke enduring the ramp up marketing phase.
-
I think I'll probably puke enduring the ramp up marketing phase.
Can't disagree with that. One good thing though, it does keep one's head from exploding. ;D
-
I think Sven was referring to CBM's remarks that they never followed his plans to a "T" (fairway movement, etc.) when the course was originally built.
Jim:
I think Jud is referring to my post in the other thread where I talked about getting things right in three dimensions. No matter how detailed the plans, there are still going to be nuances that are missed that mean it won't be exact. That doesn't necessarily mean it won't be good.
Sven
-
I didn't understand the Lido thread at all. I still don't. The whole idea seems lifeless to me, worse so because it is posited by supposed true lovers of the form and in the presumed cause of resurrecting greatness. The notion that replicating (i.e. these specifications and those angles and that flow) can and will add up to -- as in a precise and objective mathematical problem -- a definite and definable answer/solution (in this case to great architecture) seems to me to missing the entire point of gca as a living, responsive and ever unique art and craft. Such an idea (replication) is a sign not of an art and craft vibrantly reaching towards its zenith, but of one in serious decline -- moribund and too self conscious, self absorbed, and self reflective, such that what's in our heads (ideas, and our own pet theories) is ultimately more exciting to us than what's in the ground (new design expressions).
Peter
Peter,
I understand what you're trying to say, but it is very ironic given that the artist of Lido, CB Macdonald, made a career out of making replicas of golf holes. We nearly worship the designs of his and Seth Raynor.
Personally I think it would be fascinating to get to "see" this course that no longer exists, even if it is somewhat an interpretation.
With today's technology you could duplicate every hump and hollow of the Old Course in a flat sandy location. I'd love to see someone try just to see how it turns out, not that you could ever duplicate the experience of being there. It would probably make for good golf at least!
For what it's worth.
Bryan
-
Jud, Don, et., al.,
Here's what I don't understand.
The replica or template holes CBM/SR crafted have passed the ultimate test, the test of time.
Eden, Short, Redan, Biarritz, Plateau, Double Plateau, Alps, Valley, Hog's Back, Road, Bottle, Cape, Leven, Punch Bowl, Knoll, etc., etc., are all pretty much revered.
They've been accepted, for over a century, as holes with intrinsic architectural merit, so why the objection to replicating a course that contains a good number of them ?
I haven't heard anyone complain about Mountain Lake, Piping Rock, The Creek, Yale and Fishers Island, so why all the complaints about resurrecting Lido ?
What's the objection.
Surely, it can't be an issue about the quality of the individual holes.
Surely, it can't be an issue about the abundance of quality holes within one course ?
So, what's the objection ?
Mike Keiser has proven to be a visionary.
A creator of great golf courses, so what's the beef with him replicating Lido, a course full of the classic CBM/SR template holes ?
What's the objection to him resurrecting a spectacular NLE ?
-
I also don't understand the critics. It's not like Amen corner, TOC, or an island green are being copied. This is playing tribute to what seems to be a very important historical course. I'm wondering if Pete Dye would be a good person to consult. The average retail golfer is going to love the uniqueness of this. A small percentage of folks may even look into golf course arch as a result. I great band imo can do an occasional cover of well know band, and play a non commercial (hit) cover. That is what I feel Lido is.
-
BCowan,
It would be interesting to know how many CBM/SR courses the objectors have played ?
And, which ones.
-
The merits of replicas seem to vary a lot based on context and the medium of the art being replicated. Forged paintings are basically worthless. Gus Van Sant's shot-for-shot remake of "Psycho" was widely panned. Replicating a work of literature is a crime. On the other hand, as others have mentioned, song covers are widely accepted. In fact, most works of music are either created on paper or transcribed to it with the deliberate purpose of facilitating replication.
It seems to me that the reason we're okay with some forms of replica art and not others has to do with what we perceive to be the inspired moment of creation. In a painting, the creation occurs when paint goes to canvas. Copying someone else's painting is perceived as uninspired even when the replica is nearly exact. The same could be said for a movie once it's committed to film, although we do accept some remakes of movies that reimagine the original script in a different context.
Likewise, with cover songs, we see value in reimagining something that was created in written form. The divine moment of creativity was when the notes were "written." The performance of those notes is simply part of the tradition through which that initial act of creativity is passed on and given life, either through a faithful rendition or through a reimagining that deviates from the original in a way that offers a different perspective. Bruce Springsteen wrote a pretty good song when he penned "Atlantic City," and he performed it okay too. When Levon Helm reinterpreted it, though, that pretty good song became a great one. In the case of music, we're able to appreciate Springsteen's creative act as well as Helm's.
The question to me, then, is what we consider to be the divinely inspired act of creation as it pertains to golf course architecture. Was it the drawing of the initial plans for the Lido course that most fosters our admiration? Or was it the physical building of the course? If it's the former, then a faithful replica that brings the illustrated vision back to life will be seen as a monumental moment. If the latter, then the same faithful recreation will just be seen as a knockoff.
Then again, the worst thing that can happen is probably that we get a new course at a year round destination that is enjoyable to play. Maybe there's an opportunity cost in this world where so few courses are being built. But even as skeptical as I am about the project, and as corny as I think it sounds sometimes, I still find more reasons to be intrigued by the idea than reasons to be opposed to it.
-
I also don't understand the critics. It's not like Amen corner, TOC, or an island green are being copied. This is playing tribute to what seems to be a very important historical course. I'm wondering if Pete Dye would be a good person to consult. The average retail golfer is going to love the uniqueness of this. A small percentage of folks may even look into golf course arch as a result. I great band imo can do an occasional cover of well know band, and play a non commercial (hit) cover. That is what I feel Lido is.
I actually got nervous when I played the replica Augusta #12 and #13 copies at Golden Ocala.
What could possibly be the downside of a replica historical tribute course at a resort with three other original great courses-especially if they use a piece of comparatively average land.
How can one worship templates and not embrace a copy of an extinct course?
-
Here's my thoughts on the topic. People want honesty and they don't want to be lied to. We don't like to be deceived and we especially don't like to find out we were deceived after the fact.
When Don said the marketing for a Lido course would make him puke I figure it's because he envisions the marketing being something along the lines of "step back in history and play the greatest course ever built." That line bothers me because I'm not going to step back in time and I won't be playing the NLE Lido.
When people play the various tribute/replica courses they know they aren't playing the original courses but they are trying to create an experience that resembles the original. Jason talks about how forgeries are worth next to nothing. I didn't watch the TED talk yet but I figure the reason forged paintings aren't worth anything is it's a lie. Someone is trying to dupe the viewer into believing they are looking at the original. I have prints hanging in my house and they bring me happiness. They aren't the original but I can't afford the originals and I understand they are prints. Prints are like the tribute/replica courses to me.
Similarly there is mention to music. Covers are a little different. The new artist is taking inspiration from the previous song and adds their feelings and personal touches. The previous post linked on page 2 of this thread Tom talks about how he dislikes architects who create replicas, but then goes on to say he doesn't mind someone saying they design in the style of Raynor (as long as they really try to take inspiration from Raynor and not just some marketing scheme). I figure Old MacDonald is kind of like a cover, as are template holes which are generally accepted if they are done well.
I say if someone wants to recreate the Lido go for it but hopefully they will be honest about what they are really doing.
-
How can one worship templates and not embrace a copy of an extinct course?
Jeff
From my perspective, I don't think a replica course adds anything to the resort that any other great design wouldn't. The issue is the quality of the course, not the design MO. I think it is a bit of a gamble to ask a name archie to build a replica at the expense of his own ideas and concepts...which is what separates archies from each other. The question then becomes why take the gamble when seemingly two well received courses are already in the ground...why not continue with what is working? The marketing hype of a Lido replica will be short lived and have a limited market appeal...and it may be at the expense of a truly wonderful original design.
Ciao
-
Maybe a different line of thought, maybe not; The opportunity to, hopefully, be involved with building El Boqueron some day holds several incentives. For one, there likely isn't many people around who have had the privilege of building an Alister MacKenzie design. What an honor that would be! Secondly, and maybe more applicable to Lido is the fact that an architect (or shaper, or student, or historian, you pick) would learn a lot from building something of greatness that came from an architectural giant. That, in my mind would make them a better architect(or ..)...and who doesn't want more of that?
If the Lido project goes, and they want enthusiastic participants....sign me up! I'd be better for it, at the very least.
Joe
-
Joe T,
Golf courses and Art paintings are two totally different artistic endeavors. One is actually played on the created art (Golf). People don't pay $225 to walk the golf holes at Streamsong. People interact with the Art. I was at a presentation for a Raynor course last spring, the two members told us that the membership didn't know who Raynor was, nor cared. They still loved the course. People who go to Streamsong are going to play world class Golf, and Streamsong has a reputation for bringing that to the table. 90% of the people there could care less about a Lido, as long as the course is interesting and in great condition.
-
I was shagging balls at the local muni yesterday and while talking to the boys I mentioned the replica Lido. They were very confused. They were like, "you talking' about that Boz Skaggs song?"
Lido...Viagra for the libido of the GCA wonks.....
Good luck with the marketing of such an endeavor.
-
I was shagging balls at the local muni yesterday and while talking to the boys I mentioned the replica Lido. They were very confused. They were like, "you talking' about that Boz Skaggs song?"
Lido...Viagra for the libido of the GCA wonks.....
Good luck with the marketing of such an endeavor.
This. Great idea but niche course for a niche market. However, an exact duplicate of Augusta National with the correct topography would have the potential to be successful. Golfers would flock to it from all over the world even with a $500.00 greens fee.
-
So, based on the thoughts of proponents of this idea, I have to conclude:
1. that (as per my recent thread) there is indeed NO EXCUSE for an average courses being built today, since apparently all architects are always free -- and in fact are encouraged -- to find/create classic holes like the Eden, Short, Redan, Biarritz, Plateau, Double Plateau, Alps, Valley, Hog's Back, Road, Bottle, Cape, Leven, Punch Bowl, and the Knoll on WHATEVER site he/she has available, with no exceptions; and
2. that (in direct opposition to sentiments expressed thousands of times on here over the years), golf course architecture can be OBJECTIVELY judged and experienced, and that if one simply and consistently plugs this length and that angle and these principles into an equation, a golf course of the quality of Lido will necessarily be produced.
That's great - thanks. It takes all the messy greys, all the HUMAN-NESS, all the magic out of the whole process and any nuance completely out of our discussions about that process. It becomes simply: THIS is what characterizes a great golf course, and THAT is how one goes about creating it.
Okay, understood now. I can now go to the Golf Digest Top 100 list and know for CERTAIN what courses are objectively the greatest ever produced. I should get on my horse and start knocking off those top 100 right away, starting from the top and working my way down. It is very important to me to be able to agree with everybody else.
Joshua Crane - paging Joshua Crane. It's Mike Keiser and 2015 calling -- we want your scientific formula back.
-
Peter:
Have you played Old Mac?
Sven
-
Sven,
Old Mac will inevitably be the comparison for the Lido. It's my favorite Doak. I believe Tom and others are loathe to give it the full credit it's due however, exactly because it isn't 100% a creation from scratch. It's virtually impossible for anyone, myself included, to play it and enjoy it simply for the golf that's in the ground and rank it in relation to other courses on this basis. Furthermore, perhaps the reason I elevate it above courses like Pac Dunes and Ballyneal is exactly because I'm a template fan, have had the good fortune to play a number of MacRaynor & Banks courses and there's something comforting about them and I know they "work". This is something the Lido will have going from the get-go and bolsters Pat's point of view. It's a bit silly to either trash the concept or jump for joy until 1) it actually gets built and 2) we see the final product.
-
Sven,
Old Mac will inevitably be the comparison for the Lido. It's my favorite Doak. I believe Tom and others are loathe to give it the full credit it's due however, exactly because it isn't 100% a creation from scratch. It's virtually impossible for anyone, myself included, to play it and enjoy it simply for the golf that's in the ground and rank it in relation to other courses on this basis. Furthermore, perhaps the reason I elevate it above courses like Pac Dunes and Ballyneal is exactly because I'm a template fan, have had the good fortune to play a number of MacRaynor & Banks courses and there's something comforting about them and I know they "work". This is something the Lido will have going from the get-go and bolsters Pat's point of view. It's a bit silly to either trash the concept or jump for joy until 1) it actually gets built and 2) we see the final product.
Jud:
I agree with your last sentiment.
I would also point out that Old Mac sits next to three very good if not great golf courses (certainly not average) that were not built based on any kind of formula (except, perhaps, where some of those holes borrow from the principles espoused by CBM).
I think Peter's smart enough to realize his last post was overreaching.
No one is saying that building the Lido should be the hard and fast rule for how courses are constructed (especially if you consider that even Mac and Raynor built different versions of the various template holes listed above).
We're just saying there's merit in the idea of reconstructing this particular design.
Sven
-
Copying Lido inch by inch, hole by hole is not the same as Old Mac. Who doesn't love template holes? Play with enough GCAers and you might think every hole is a template.
My opinion on the desire by some for an exact copy of a defunct course stems from the long detailed hatred many on this site have for living working architects. It has even been suggested by an officer of a Raynor organization that money can be saved by eliminating living architects. This whole exercise speaks to our post a link culture. Copy/paste something into a space where it gets hits and claim it as your own.
Truth is, anyone who can afford Streamsong has the connections to play one of many of these template relics. A reclaimed Lido will expose no new golfers to this model. It is not "golf for the people". In some ways it is a selfish grab by those who want to intellectualize the game rather than play it.
-
Great idea but niche course for a niche market.
I very much disagree -- so long as the course turns out great. If it does, I think it will enjoy wide success. The 'niche' aspect of it may enhance that success, and make it even more popular among 'retail' golfers.
-
John:
That one made me laugh. So subtle.
There's a vast difference between simply trying to boost the number of your twitter followers and borrowing from the past to enhance the conversation today.
I'm sorry that you can't see the difference.
Sven
-
Truth is, anyone who can afford Streamsong has the connections to play one of many of these template relics. A reclaimed Lido will expose no new golfers to this model. It is not "golf for the people". In some ways it is a selfish grab by those who want to intellectualize the game rather than play it.
Experience tells me otherwise.
There are thousands of people a month without the means or connections getting their only taste of the CBM world, even if they don't know it.
Sven
-
Sven,
Where is this CBM utopia for the common man? Are you talking about the Cape, Redan or Short found at the local muni?
-
John,
Most people who go see great musicians/bands go there to enjoy themselves and the music, they have appreciation for the music. 90+% of them don't know what key the song is in, the chord progressions, and the scales being used. The same applies for streamsong and Bandon. What is really great is when a well studied individual and someone who just enjoys playing cool golf courses, both like the same course. Most of the ones who are in the 2nd category pay the bills.
-
John:
Yesterday, two of those common men were named Scott and Bill. They drove close to four hours to take advantage of rates they can't get in the high season.
Neither one of them had ever heard of CBM, let alone NGLA, Chicago GC, Sleepy Hollow or Mid Ocean.
They played an Eden, a Hogsback, a Short, a Long, a Biarritz and a Punchbowl, along with a number of other template inspired holes.
They had a blast.
Sven
-
I agree with Pat on this one. Given that the terrain was almost totally created, I would think that Lido is one of the few courses where you could pull off a pretty good and accurate facsimile, especially if they have access to the model that was created or can figure out the contouring off of it. Given the size of the site, I think they could probably get the prevailing winds pretty close too. My feeling is, why not try it?
Reading Peter's earlier thread and his post here got me thinking about a talk Brian Silva made a PGA architectural symposium about 15 years ago where he had that there were only 29 truly original golf holes in the World. This may not be the place to say it, but bad golf courses are very possible today due to a combination of lack of capital, severe property, and/or environmental constraints.
-
John:
Yesterday, two of those common men were named Scott and Bill. They drove close to four hours to take advantage of rates they can't get in the high season.
Neither one of them had ever heard of CBM, let alone NGLA, Chicago GC, Sleepy Hollow or Mid Ocean.
They played an Eden, a Hogsback, a Short, a Long, a Biarritz and a Punchbowl, along with a number of other template inspired holes.
They had a blast.
Sven
I hope for their sake that you didn't educate them. I can't tell you the times a caddie educates me about either the architecture or history of a course and I play dumb because it is the best strategy to shut him up. So, with caddie, travel and fees they spent a weeks take home pay for a day of golf. That's dedication.
-
John:
Yesterday, two of those common men were named Scott and Bill. They drove close to four hours to take advantage of rates they can't get in the high season.
Neither one of them had ever heard of CBM, let alone NGLA, Chicago GC, Sleepy Hollow or Mid Ocean.
They played an Eden, a Hogsback, a Short, a Long, a Biarritz and a Punchbowl, along with a number of other template inspired holes.
They had a blast.
Sven
I hope for their sake that you didn't educate them. I can't tell you the times a caddie educates me about either the architecture or history of a course and I play dumb because it is the best strategy to shut him up. So, with caddie, travel and fees they spent a weeks take home pay for a day of golf. That's dedication.
They were pushing their own carts.
I answered the questions they asked me.
I think they learned a little bit.
They were good guys, I enjoyed talking to them.
Not everyone is a misanthrope.
Sven
-
Great idea but niche course for a niche market.
I very much disagree -- so long as the course turns out great. If it does, I think it will enjoy wide success. The 'niche' aspect of it may enhance that success, and make it even more popular among 'retail' golfers.
Good point but it will be popular because it's a great course, not because it's the ghost of Lido.
-
Old Mac is Bandon...That is all you need to know...What percentage of the people playing Old Mac have even a small iota of knowledge that it's a "replica" course? My guess is 75% have little clue at all.
-
i'm not sure we are right in calling old mac a 'replica' course. it's not like the scorecard has for #1, "this is a hole inspired by the double plateau at yeaman's hall" and then #2 reads "this is a hole inspired by the biarritz at yale" as we find at a true REPLICA course such as tour 18 in houston where they in fact give credit and highlight their first hole being 18 at harbour town and then 2 being bay hill, etc.
in that case every course raynor did after his first should be referred to as replica. heck then even his first since he learned from cbm, no?
in my simple view old mac was inspired by, not a replica. though i may be wrong.....
-
i'm not sure we are right in calling old mac a 'replica' course. it's not like the scorecard has for #1, "this is a hole inspired by the double plateau at yeaman's hall" and then #2 reads "this is a hole inspired by the biarritz at yale" as we find at a true REPLICA course such as tour 18 in houston where they in fact give credit and highlight their first hole being 18 at harbour town and then 2 being bay hill, etc.
in that case every course raynor did after his first should be referred to as replica. heck then even his first since he learned from cbm, no?
in my simple view old mac was inspired by, not a replica. though i may be wrong.....
I believe most, if not all (including the Tour 18's in Dallas and Houston), of the 'replica' courses have gone to the "inspired by" or a "simulation of" line for legal reasons... does anybody have an answer on the legality of an exact copy of a golf hole? As Jason noted, exact copy of words is plagiarism (illegal), but a replica of the Mona Lisa is just art.
-
There are approximately 1,000 times as many people interested in playing a replica/inspired-by of "#2 at Bay Hill" than "#2 at the Lido" or even "the double plateau at Yeamans Hall". I live less than two hours from Yeamans and would probably have to ask around for quite a while this Sunday to find one of the other members of my club who have played there or even heard of Seth Raynor in connection.
-
I believe most, if not all (including the Tour 18's in Dallas and Houston), of the 'replica' courses have gone to the "inspired by" or a "simulation of" line for legal reasons... does anybody have an answer on the legality of an exact copy of a golf hole? As Jason noted, exact copy of words is plagiarism (illegal), but a replica of the Mona Lisa is just art.
well i believe the art falls under the music here... when i was learning how to play the guitar i would practice on other peoples songs. artist i assume train the same way (or paint random nudes ??? ). so that is accepted.
one isn't going to learn how to write by copying word for word a doris kerns goodwin manuscript.
---and i agree with brent.
lido may very well be fund to play but very few will head there because of "oh my god, it's Lido!!!". SS should have a lido themed bar and have every item from there they can get their hands on and hang articles about the original so people who visit can learn about what they just saw. but at the end of the day the course will succeed or fail based upon it's playability.
--- question. how can SS go and trademark 'lido' when pieces of the original'ish lido still exists on the spot where it was built and is called lido golf club. (i can see it on google earth right now)
-
http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/getcase.pl?navby=search&case=/data2/circs/5th/9621102cv0.html
-
Aside from all the arguments presented above, I'm wondering how much documentation actually exists on the NLE Lido.
Does anyone know?
-
Aside from all the arguments presented above, I'm wondering how much documentation actually exists on the NLE Lido.
Does anyone know?
http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,60459.0.html
-
Peter:
Have you played Old Mac?
Sven,
Forget Old Mac, how about the 17th hole at Pacific Dunes ?
The 4th hole at Hidden Creek ?
Redan's a go-go 😀
-
Peter:
Have you played Old Mac?
Sven,
Forget Old Mac, how about the 17th hole at Pacific Dunes ?
The 4th hole at Hidden Creek ?
Redan's a go-go 😀
Careful Pat. People are going to accuse us of collaborating.
I alluded to your point in one of my earlier posts. Perhaps it was too subtle.
Sven
-
Sven,
I know we need to wait to see the actual plan for the new Lido, but are you saying it will be like Old Mac with template inspired holes arranged by the architect to fit the land? Or do you believe the Lido at Streamsong will be a "copy" of the original Lido in that the routing, hole sequencing, and golf features will be built to be as close as possible to the original?
-
Don, does it matter to your perspective either way? I seem to recall you raising similar questions and concerns about Old Mac, also site unseen.
-
Sven,
I know we need to wait to see the actual plan for the new Lido, but are you saying it will be like Old Mac with template inspired holes arranged by the architect to fit the land? Or do you believe the Lido at Streamsong will be a "copy" of the original Lido in that the routing, hole sequencing, and golf features will be built to be as close as possible to the original?
Don:
I don't know. From what we've heard, it sounds like they want to stay as close as possible to the original, including finding a site that provides all of the key elements.
If I had to guess (speculation alert), I'd think they'd do their best to add a bit more space between some of the holes, and perhaps make some changes to some of them to "resortify" and "modernize" it (assuming its going to be built at Streamsong). One simple change is that the original only had three sets of tees. Most resort courses these days have five.
George Bahto indicated he had an incredibly accurate plan of the course that would enable someone to reproduce the original down to the inch. I think that statement is a bit of hyperbole, as not only do we know that the as built course was slightly different than the plans for it, but I can't imagine they have all of the elevations mapped out in such detail. Maybe they do.
When the course was claimed by the Navy, the super at the time went out and tried to record as much evidence of the design of the course as he could in order to facilitate a rebuild. It wouldn't surprise me if those photos (and other materials, if any) resurfaced at some point and the team has them as a tool. George indicated he had a good deal of contact with the family of the last owner, and if they photos were still around that would be as good a place as any for them to have been found.
I do know that they have been gathering materials and studying the original for quite some time in anticipation of this project. And the guys who have been tapped to build it won't disappoint (from a confidence standpoint).
The one question that lingers in my mind about the project is whether or not you try to emulate what CBM was doing with the course (at least what I think he was doing), that being creating a "championship" test of links golf in the United States. I don't know if that is part of their goal, but it would be incredibly cool to see high level golf played on a modern day version of the original.
Sven
-
Sven -
I see no particular value in trying to reproduce the Lido's original hole sequencing. Similarly, chest-beating about the exactness of any hole to its Lido forebear seems to me a set up for endless, largely pointless, arguments. More to the point, I'm not sure why any architect worth his salt would want to take on something like that.
The OM model of a course "in the spirit of..." works well enough, no?
Bob
-
Sven -
I see no particular value in trying to reproduce the Lido's original hole sequencing. Similarly, chest-beating about the exactness of any hole to its Lido forebear seems to me a set up for endless, largely pointless, arguments. More to the point, I'm not sure why any architect worth his salt would want to take on something like that.
The OM model of a course "in the spirit of..." works well enough, no?
Bob
Bob:
You're asking the wrong guy. Its not my project.
Sven
-
Sven -
I see no particular value in trying to reproduce the Lido's original hole sequencing. Similarly, chest-beating about the exactness of any hole to its Lido forebear seems to me a set up for endless, largely pointless, arguments. More to the point, I'm not sure why any architect worth his salt would want to take on something like that.
The OM model of a course "in the spirit of..." works well enough, no?
That was how Old Macdonald was born. Mr. Keiser asked if we could rebuild the Lido on the Bandon site, and I said we couldn't, though we could take many of the templates and try to fit them to the ground -- as Macdonald did.
However I did not want to sell something as "the Lido" which really wasn't. To do otherwise shows little respect for the golf course you're supposedly trying to honor. If you're going to sell it as the Lido, don't you have to stick pretty close to the plan for the real thing?
P.S. It's not my project either. :)
-
Tom:
If the Old Mac land had been ideal for a Lido rebuild, would you have signed on?
I understand that there is a lot more involved in why and when you take on projects.
Sven
-
I was going to suggest one thing that can't be replicated is Lido's original length, either in total or hole-by-hole. But then it struck me that in fact this would be the best thing to replicate -- since what was back then a challenging championship test would be just perfect for today's technology-laden, 10 handicap retail golfer. They'd play from the back/championship tees, and what an ego-stroke that would be. They'd come off the course in droves with big smiles on their faces wondering why 'no one builds great courses like this anymore'.
Peter
-
Sven -
I see no particular value in trying to reproduce the Lido's original hole sequencing. Similarly, chest-beating about the exactness of any hole to its Lido forebear seems to me a set up for endless, largely pointless, arguments. More to the point, I'm not sure why any architect worth his salt would want to take on something like that.
The OM model of a course "in the spirit of..." works well enough, no?
Bob
why would an architect be needed? if a land owner has the plans, give them to a grader or three and you're all set (after all how did d ross build 100 courses a year when a train was the only mode of transportation?)
-
Sven -
I didn't mean to suggest those were your views. Just threading the thread.
Mark Steffy -
"...give them to a grader or three and you're all set".
Sure, you could build the Black at Streamsong without the help of an architect. Things like that have been tried before.
To my knowledge such self help projects have turned out to be disasters, however detailed the old plans and photos used. I can pretty much assure you that the owner putting millions of dollars into the new Streamsong course will appreciate that and will want the assistance of an architect from day one.
Bob
-
why would an architect be needed? if a land owner has the plans, give them to a grader or three and you're all set (after all how did d ross build 100 courses a year when a train was the only mode of transportation?)
Nobody has plans down to the quarter-inch, unless they hired a surveyor in the digital age [which couldn't be the case for Lido].
There is always a lot of interpretation to be done for what's between the contour lines, and, for that matter, whether what is on the drawing is really what the architect MEANT. In most cases, it's up to the architect and the people he has designated to sort out the details. Whoever your "graders" are would have to make a bunch of judgment calls if there was no one to guide them.
-
Don, does it matter to your perspective either way? I seem to recall you raising similar questions and concerns about Old Mac, also site unseen.
David,
I did raise similar concerns about Old Mac, even sending a note to Tom expressing those concerns. Tom responded and let me know I didn't quite have it right. I enjoy OM and don't recognize some of the holes there as template holes. 7 & 17 come to mind, but concede that I am not the template expert you may be. But I also think it would have been interesting to see a Tom Doak inspired golf course.
I also concede that I may be wrong about Lido, which is why I asked the question.
I remain steadfast in my belief that copying the routing or sequencing of a course and building it in another place is something I will never endorse. If you do, good for you.
I think it is a bad idea.
-
Don,
Good thread. I must admit the experience of playing the Tour 18 here in Houston a couple times was a turn off on the subject of replicas. Ok, the TPC island green was ok, but parts of it were stupid or really stupid. Why on earth did they try to replicate #14 at Pebble Beach?
I could go on.
But, where I struggle is whether the Lido is possibly an exception. Maybe it is such a unique case - in part because it is NLE - that if someone could replicate it at an appropriate site (certainly not the Old Macdonald site), it might not be such a terrible idea.
I don't know. I guess I would have to see the site and the plans and hear from an architect we could trust before making a decision.
For easier to say no to a St Andrews replica, IMO.
-
Don,
I've been a long time critic of the original Lido concept, and I imagine some of my critiques of the original will probably apply equally to this new project, but really it is impossible to say without knowing more about the details project.
As for your original question, though, copying originals is quite common in art and design and is sometimes one of the mechanisms for the original creators to profit from their creations. That isn't to what you are referring I know, but it does raise some of the same questions of authenticity and artistic contribution.
How about a craftsman who builds fine wood furniture based on the designs of the Arts and Crafts era from 100 years ago, or from earlier periods. Such a craftsman isn't really producing "original art" in the sense of Stickley or the original designer, but the reproduction could nonetheless produce high quality craftsmanship in a rendition of the original design, and provide the consumer an opportunity to experience great design from the early period as it was intend to be experienced. Do you feel that such reproductions are also a bad idea?
Another thing to consider about the Lido project as opposed TOC, ANGC, or NGLA is that the Lido was supposed to be a design removed from the context and constraints of the environment. In his words, CBM was playing "Creator," and on a grander scale than with NGLA and some of his other courses. So in some ways we can isolate the "design" element of the Lido in a way that we cannot reasonably isolate the design element with other great courses. In short it is all design with very little nature. (This is the one of the bases for my critique of the original.)
So one could argue, I guess, that Lido project is more amenable to copying than some other courses where Nature plays more of a crucial role. It would in a sense be following a design that was intentionally removed from any particular context. I don't think that I agree with this argument, but it is worth considering.
-
Don,
Good thread. I must admit the experience of playing the Tour 18 here in Houston a couple times was a turn off on the subject of replicas. Ok, the TPC island green was ok, but parts of it were stupid or really stupid. Why on earth did they try to replicate #14 at Pebble Beach?
Tim,
Part of the problem with a "Tour 18" course, or any course that extracts specific holes from a variety of courses, is the lack of continuity.
A replica of Lido would not suffer that inadequacy, as the continuity of the original was well received and the architect/s style is not disrupted by intelopers.
I could go on.
But, where I struggle is whether the Lido is possibly an exception. Maybe it is such a unique case - in part because it is NLE - that if someone could replicate it at an appropriate site (certainly not the Old Macdonald site), it might not be such a terrible idea.
I don't know. I guess I would have to see the site and the plans and hear from an architect we could trust before making a decision.
For easier to say no to a St Andrews replica, IMO.
I don't understand your thinking, nor do I understand Don's objection to recreating Lido at Streamsong.
A Lido at Streamsong wouldn't be an exact replica in terms of the setting and as Tom Doak alluded to, probably not down the inch in terms of hole design.
I don't think anyone is expecting that, and I know that few if any would be able to detect the difference.
No one on this site has played the original Lido, so what do they know of it's playing qualities ?
Yes, we know that the CBM/SR/CB templates are in abundance, but, so what, they're in abundance on dozens of courses, all of which are well received.
So, again I ask, what's the objection to recreating Lido ?
If Lido was viewed in the same light as NGLA, how can replicating it be a bad thing ?
-
Don, does it matter to your perspective either way? I seem to recall you raising similar questions and concerns about Old Mac, also site unseen.
David,
I did raise similar concerns about Old Mac, even sending a note to Tom expressing those concerns. Tom responded and let me know I didn't quite have it right. I enjoy OM and don't recognize some of the holes there as template holes. 7 & 17 come to mind, but concede that I am not the template expert you may be. But I also think it would have been interesting to see a Tom Doak inspired golf course.
You can, it's called Pacific Dunes.
I also concede that I may be wrong about Lido, which is why I asked the question.
I remain steadfast in my belief that copying the routing or sequencing of a course and building it in another place is something I will never endorse.
WHY ?
So many lament the loss of great courses, either built or designed, so why object to resurrecting a course designed by one of the giants in golf course architecture, a course recognized as a great course amongst all of it's peers.
But, then again, I endorsed the rebuilding of the WTC, only one story taller.
If you do, good for you.
I think it is a bad idea.
WHY, in your mind, is it a bad idea ?
-
Don, does it matter to your perspective either way? I seem to recall you raising similar questions and concerns about Old Mac, also site unseen.
David,
I did raise similar concerns about Old Mac, even sending a note to Tom expressing those concerns. Tom responded and let me know I didn't quite have it right. I enjoy OM and don't recognize some of the holes there as template holes. 7 & 17 come to mind, but concede that I am not the template expert you may be. But I also think it would have been interesting to see a Tom Doak inspired golf course.
I also concede that I may be wrong about Lido, which is why I asked the question.
I remain steadfast in my belief that copying the routing or sequencing of a course and building it in another place is something I will never endorse. If you do, good for you.
I think it is a bad idea.
Don,
Let me pose the question another way.
Suppose Lido had never been built, but, someone recently found the blueprints in the attic at NGLA.
Would you be against the course being built, according to the blueprints, at Streamsong ?
If so, WHY ?
-
Pat,
IMO, no good golf course gets built exactly to plan. There is always field decisions because no matter how good anyone thinks they are at building a course in the office, it gets changed for the better in the field.
If someone had what they thought was a good plan, and hired an architect to adapt the plan to a certain piece of ground, then I'd be fine with that. If they do that, the first thing to change will be the plan to better fit the ground, and then while the course is getting built, it will be edited in the field.
What I am against is taking a course from another region, on different soils, in a different climate, with a different builder, construction superintendent, client, equipment....on and on, and claim they can rebuild the same course. That is disingenuous because no matter what the techno nerds may say, I'm calling BS on it being pulled off.
Are they trying to rebuild the Lido with the routing, holes sequencing, and golf features replicated as close as possible? Or will they take the plan, concede it was not drawn with central Florida in mind, and allow the architect to take those 18 hole concepts and arrange them to best fit the land? If they do that, then I think the course will be better, but it will not be THE Lido. Thus I'm curious what they have in mind.
-
I've been following this and Sven's thread very closely, trying to understand the POV of those who are not thrilled with this idea. And while I understand each objection on an intellectual level, I'm truly struggling to see how they outweigh the potential benefits.
If we all woke up tomorrow, and suddenly there appeared a recreation of the Lido at Streamsong, as faithful as humanly possible to what we know of the original, and it also happened to be a terrific course in its own right, who could have a problem with that? Would those who don't currently endorse the idea not be curious to at least try it out? And if so, then isn't it worth it for Streamsong to give it a try and have it be just one of their offerings (considering they've expressed interest in producing up to 7 courses)? Surely their track record gives them the benefit of the doubt when it comes to the overall quality of any course they add there, whether its the Lido or no.
Where I do see trouble is in claiming that it is THE Lido when, as Don just referenced, it will never be THE Lido. And I would not be surprised in the least if Streamsong covers all these eventualities by using some terminology similar to "inspired by". That said, conjuring my best Jean-Paul Sartre, THE Lido does not currently exist, so effectively it never existed. One may certainly find all this distasteful and not their preferred method of course creation, but any recreation of THE Lido is really the new, current, and only Lido.
From a customer standpoint, what's the worse that could happen, and what are the standards for success?
I would worry that the course may not live up to the marketing hype (which is sure to be along the lines of "Now you can play the mysterious course that was once the greatest in the world"). But that wouldn't taint the legacy of the original Lido or CBM and it wouldn't effect my personal enjoyment. At the least, GCA history buffs are provided with a public CBM-style course on the East Coast that is high-quality and can be played in the middle of winter. It's important to remember that, for those without easy access to any MacRaynors, that sounds pretty heavenly and far outweighs theoretical concerns.
-
Now that we're several pages in, I'm getting more confused as to whether we're talking architecturally about the reproduction of Lido project, or if we're talking about the business aspect of reproducing Lido. Is the general tenor of the discussion leaning in one of those directions? It seems more and more we question the financial wisdom of developers behind projects yet to be built. Not a big deal, but I know that's not an aspect of the Lido discussion I could possibly add to with any wisdom. Mosaic seems to be doing just fine with Streamsong so far.
Joe
-
This is all just so much mental masturbation:
1. Financially this is a pimple on Mosaic's ass.
2. They have apparently done a very good job thus far with the first 2 courses, there's little reason to believe that they'll jump the shark with the next 2, including potentially "The Lido".
3. This is land that has been extensively mined over the past several decades in my understanding. While I'm sure they'll be "working with the land" where it makes sense, it's hardly as if they're taking a perfect piece of pristine crumpled links land and flattening it with a bulldozer to recreate the Lido.
4. Even the idea that they are taking something and rebuilding it perfectly as if they were spitting it out of a plastic mold from the past is silly. There will inevitably be a number of decisions both large and small to be made along the way which will result in a product not exactly the same as the original, several of which have already been enumerated. It is really here that we are projecting, which again is all so much of a wank job at this point in the proceedings.
-
Pat Mucci:
I agree with your observation of the Tour 18 concept, i.e., the lack of continuity. The other problem I have is that if you have played many of the real holes, it just doesn't work. The setting is so radically different. Just seems stupid.
Did have the opportunity to play the Donald Ross Memorial and didn't find it too bad. Much better than the Tour 18.
As for the Lido project, I am actually open minded about it. Don't think it would interest me if I was a practicing architect - I would rather do something original - but as a golf architecture junkie I'd probably enjoy seeing it if it was done well.
-
Are they trying to rebuild the Lido with the routing, holes sequencing, and golf features replicated as close as possible? Or will they take the plan, concede it was not drawn with central Florida in mind, and allow the architect to take those 18 hole concepts and arrange them to best fit the land? If they do that, then I think the course will be better, but it will not be THE Lido. Thus I'm curious what they have in mind.
This is the part of the "replica" argument I don't understand either.
How many field interpretations does it take to go from replica to homage to riffs on a theme of CBM?
-
Six.
-
Joe Hancock,
I think most of the golfers here will welcome the course and they tend to measure good architecture by popularity. I'm not saying that is a negative, just factual in that if a lot of people like it and it is a commercial success, then it is good architecture. It seems that is how some look at developing the Lido.
Me, like always I'm a little off my rocker thinking about things that I can't change or even influence, but I think of the tremendous crop of new era designers who will never get an opportunity to show their stuff because they will never get the chance to BE popular. Whomever designs the new Lido will be second, maybe third, fiddle on the credits.
But I also think this. If they do build it, I hope they nail it. I don't think they will have the courage to do that, retail golfer mentality and all, because I think it was hard, severe, and manly. By God, if they are going to call it Lido I sure hope they don't produce some watered down course meant to be "retail golfer" friendly because that isn't the original.
-
You have to have a first to start a trend. I am proud of the fact that I stood up in opposition to the first green side fan I ever saw. I lost that battle and now we all suffer for it. In 20 years when architects are replaced by technicians who oversee installations of replica courses you can remember this project.
What bothers me most is that this site, a place where architects should be promoted and celebrated, is leading the charge against creativity and innovation. Bothers me but doesn't surprise me because that has always been the motivation behind most critics. This is going to make everyone's life easier because if you don't like Lido you must simply be stupid.
I'd be one hell of a lot happier if someone from Kingsley, Rustic or Ballyneal would give up their wonderful original creations for a replica. Because who knows what course we will lose for this.
-
John K:
To be fair, I think your comments are a bit over the top. I strongly doubt people here are opposed to creativity and an emphasis on original designs.
If at the end of the day, many here support a replica Lido project, most likely the support will be on an exception basis, not with any thought or hope it will start a trend toward replica courses.
If you have played the Tour 18 here in Houston, then you may well agree it serves a purpose. Really, it is awful. It is a lesson on why replicas should usually be avoided.
-
By God, if they are going to call it Lido I sure hope they don't produce some watered down course meant to be "retail golfer" friendly because that isn't the original.
I think I understand (and agree with) the spirit of this comment, Don, but I must ask, do you find the 2 courses at Streamsong to be "watered down"? Are the courses at Bandon "watered down" by your standards? Cabot Links and Cliffs? Barnbougle? The owners of all these facilities profess a dedication to the enjoyment of the retail golfer. I don't think that they have produced anything watered down while upholding that principle thus far.
I wouldn't expect any course built as "a replica of" or "inspired by" the Lido to suddenly be built to a different standard.
On another note, wank job...that is priceless JT.
-
If someone had what they thought was a good plan, and hired an architect to adapt the plan to a certain piece of ground, then I'd be fine with that. If they do that, the first thing to change will be the plan to better fit the ground, and then while the course is getting built, it will be edited in the field.
I think this argument would carry more weight if it wasn't the Lido we are talking about. To my mind, the idea behind the Lido was that the ground was created to fit the plan, not the other way around. Supposedly there was not any "ground" to begin with. The ground was created solely with the golf course in mind. When I think of a Lido copy, this is what I assume they will try --Build a course to predetermined specifications with complete disregard for what might fit on the ground as it pre-exists.
3D printers are all the rage right now in schools and in experimental manufacturing. I think of the early Lido project as an attempt at 3D print of a golf course design, where the entire object is built according to the plan with a malleable material (dredged sand.) I assume the new project would be a more sophisticated effort to do the same.
That is why I think Patrick's question above really gets to the heart of the matter: If Lido itself had never been built, but the 3d Model and detailed plans from CBM existed, would it make sense to try to create it?
Personally I balk at the idea of disconnecting the design from the nature of the land itself, but admit that it was an interesting experiment then, and I think it may be an interesting experiment now.
-
You can view a much larger version of this image at:
https://blog.forelinksters.com/2012/12/09/streamsong-golf-resort/
Just click on the photo a couple of times.
Where is there any semblance of great ground for golf in this photo?
(https://blog.forelinksters.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/12/StreamsongResort011312-0390-1.jpg)
And at least one mag has this as the site for SS Black:
(http://www.travelweekly.com/uploadedImages/All_TW_Art/2015/020215/T0202STREAMSONGGOLF.jpg?n=7289)
-
Jim,
I walked the ground at SS before any work started, and I thought it very good ground for golf.
All sorts of land forms were left over from the mining operation.
david makes a good point and I'm starting to think that if they do in fact try and "3D print" the golf course, I hope they do build it just as they did originally. I doubt they will as I assume some concessions will be made for modern equipment and modern agronomy, but how cool would it be to see the real thing, green surfaces, severity around the greens.
My next question then is if they were to do that, would it be loved, or does it need to be modernized for the modern golfer?
Some of the pictures I've seen look pretty darn severe.
they build this, and I'm in:
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc435/snilsen7/Lido%208th%20-%20Golf%20Illustrated%20March%201933_zpsowquz4f6.png)
-
Don, that is not the original version of that hole. It started out as a Biarritz, that ran right along the beach, and was tougher than nails.
So if they do recreate the original course, the hole you see in that picture will not be there.
-
Don,
I wasn't there and I'll take your word for that. I've been looking at the site using the "Bird's Eye" at Bing Maps. They still show the course under construction , but when you zoom in you can view the site pre-construction.
(https://farm9.staticflickr.com/8579/16582960462_a7500a490c_o.jpg)
A look at the countryside from 1994 to 2015 can also be had at Google Earth. Interesting to view the changes to the site that are shown within that span of time.
There's no sacred trust between the natural landscape and the architect being broken in that area.
-
. . . I'm starting to think that if they do in fact try and "3D print" the golf course, I hope they do build it just as they did originally. I doubt they will as I assume some concessions will be made for modern equipment and modern agronomy, but how cool would it be to see the real thing, green surfaces, severity around the greens.
My next question then is if they were to do that, would it be loved, or does it need to be modernized for the modern golfer?
Some of the pictures I've seen look pretty darn severe.
I think if they did built to the original plan (as shown on the 3D map) it would present some very severe challenges, yet still have plenty of width for playability. The thing that strikes me is that it seems like a course with very little letup, but it would be fun to see if that was indeed the case.
As for concessions to the modern golfer, I'd be much more interested in the project if they didn't make any, but this seems like the type of project that will inevitably get compromised. I hope not though.
Sven's questions about the length are interesting. From the back tees, the original was long enough to challenge the best golfers in the world. To challenge today's best golfers in a similar fashion , the new version would have to be much, much longer. The problem, though, is that proportions between the best golfers and the average golfers have changed dramatically since the original was built, and average golfers would not fit on a "scale model" amped up to challenge the best golfers.
A better approach might be to ignore the best golfers in the world and built it closer to the original scale, with perhaps some small adjustment to reflect the change in technology for the average player, but not the top golfer.
-
This may have been already answered, but does anyone know if the plasticine model still exists? The amount of contour in the photo of the model looks impressive, and I wonder how the actual model stacks up.
For example here is a closeup of the Biarritz hole that I blew up in a discussion of the Biarritz concept many years ago. (The Lido is in the middle. Ignore the others.) It looks like there was a heck of movement on the first plateau.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v249/dmoriarty/Golf%20Courses/BiarritzThree.jpg)
-
A better approach might be to ignore the best golfers in the world and built it closer to the original scale, with perhaps some small adjustment to reflect the change in technology for the average player, but not the top golfer.
Why not build for the average player? The player that represents the masses.
-
Why not build for the average player? The player that represents the masses.
I think we are saying the same thing.
-
Why not build for the average player? The player that represents the masses.
I think we are saying the same thing.
David-Sorry if I was unclear. I agree with you completely.
-
I am not for or against the idea. However, I don't really believe the Lido can be reproduced...even down to getting the name properly understood....or they wouldn't be calling this course Lido on the proposed site. To me, the idea is a bit of a marketing fraud. Furthermore, I am not convinced the marketing fraud will produce more business or a better course than an original design from an internationally well respected archie. That isn't to say the "Lido" can't or won't be great, but I am struggling to understand why an owner would want to pigeon hole his archie...seems like an unnecessary risk...and one that could potentially thwart a great orginal design being constructed.
Ciao
-
I am struggling to understand why an owner would want to pigeon hole his archie...seems like an unnecessary risk...and one that could potentially thwart a great orginal design being constructed.
Ciao
Sean, doesn't the same argument apply to Old Mac?
Here are a few ideas on why Lido might appeal to certain owners:
Lido was by many counts one of the top few courses in the country. Some said the best, and that included NGLA, Merion and Pine Valley. Intriguing possibility to build a new course that, right out of the box, might measure up to today's top-ranked world-class courses.
CBM designed Lido. A guy like, say, Mike Keiser, admires CBM. So much so, he had a tribute course built around CBM's ideas. That course is one of the top-ranked in the nation. As I understand it, it's extremely popular. Suggests Lido could be very popular as well.
The belief that they CAN reproduce a nearly exact Lido replica. Maybe even improve on it. That's why it's a shame Tom Doak doesn't seem interested in the job.
Lots of marketing potential for a Lido replica. Reprint some of the rave reviews, by golf's leading lights, that called this course the best in the country, better than Pine Valley, Merion and NGLA. Built by the father of American golf courses and architecture, who laid out many of the nation's best courses, and whose ideas and designs shaped the future of American golf. Tough as nails for the pro's, but a joy for bogey as well. You probably will never play Augusta National, but you can play a course that might well be its rival or superior.
Keiser has wanted to build Lido for years. Sounds to me like this might be almost irresistible for him. And does anyone have a keener sense than him about building great courses and marketing them?
I like the idea for several reasons. Not least of which is it will give the public a chance to play the type of course that has mostly been limited to a small number of country club members.
-
Allow me to offer a defense of Tour-18 in Houston.
For the majority of golfers, who will never have the opportunity to play Augusta, playing a replica of Amen corner, however inaccurate, is a lot of fun.
Having played only a couple of the real holes that were replicated at Tour-18, I could clearly see the inaccuracies and difference due to location and routing. For the other holes, which I will likely never get to play for real, it was simply fun to play and imagine. What is the down side?
Fun – isn’t that what the game is all about?
-
Myrtle Beach and more specifically the Channel Hole at King's North is fun. $60 is fun, $300 a round needs to be more.
-
Allow me to offer a defense of Tour-18 in Houston.
For the majority of golfers, who will never have the opportunity to play Augusta, playing a replica of Amen corner, however inaccurate, is a lot of fun.
Having played only a couple of the real holes that were replicated at Tour-18, I could clearly see the inaccuracies and difference due to location and routing. For the other holes, which I will likely never get to play for real, it was simply fun to play and imagine. What is the down side?
Fun – isn’t that what the game is all about?
There are two separate discussions getting crossed here.
At the consumer level, your argument above may be entirely correct. Heck, most of the consumers would have no earthly idea whether a copy of the Lido is anything like the original course; they'll be happy to take the developer's word for it, since they don't really care anyway.
At the architect level, it's much different, unless you think that all architects are just business people.
But, this is no different than many other things in modern life -- what makes perfect sense at the level of business is not the best thing for the sake of the art. It just depends which side you're on.
-
Tom,
I agree with your observation completely. I was only commenting on the Tour-18 type course that copies holes generally accepted as special from famous courses. I think that that type of course has a place and an attraction to the general golfing consumer. They’ve seen it on TV. It has appeal over just playing another average course. Overdoing the concept (too many copy courses) would quickly kill the appeal.
As for an exact copy of Lido, I agree that the attraction of it “being” the Lido would have little sway with me, and certainly none with the average golf consumer who has never heard of Lido or watched the “Cialis Lido Open” on TV.
Golf architects, like all innovators, stand on the shoulders of the giants who went before them. I’d be more interested in a course that started with Lido hole designs and had the architect build upon them in varying degrees. Especially if that process were documented, perhaps on the scorecard. That might even start to educate the masses.
(Disclaimer - my point of view on GCA falls in between the average golf slob who judges a course largely on the beer cart and the GCA snob connoisseur of course design.)
-
At the architect level, it's much different, unless you think that all architects are just business people.
But, this is no different than many other things in modern life -- what makes perfect sense at the level of business is not the best thing for the sake of the art. It just depends which side you're on.
There are a lot of interesting issues about a potential Lido project, and I have mixed feelings about aspects of the project myself, but I am not comfortable with this notion that the project necessarily creates a conflict between a potential architect's business interests and doing what is best for "the sake of the art." Nor am I comfortable with the implication in some of the posts (not just Tom's) that building a course according to CBM's plan is somehow not a worthy artistic (and architectural) endeavor in and of itself.
It would be a different sort of project, but it strikes me as a one that would be exceptionally challenging and would fraught with the potential for heavy criticism. But if an architect were to really pull it off (unlikely, I think) and build a world class course based on a non-site specific plan, it would be a tremendous artistic and technical accomplishment.
The late Canadian pianist Glenn Gould is perhaps best known for his 1955 recording of Bach's Goldberg Variations (and his 1981 re-recording of the same.) Arguably, Gould redefined the way mainstream classical music lovers heard and understood Bach. Was he not an artist because he was (for the most part) following Bach's score? Or was he a brilliant artist because he was able to bring out the beauty in what was previously a largely overlooked, esoteric work?
I guess the counter would be that, unlike Bach, Gould was not a composer (at least not in that piece.) But I think that becomes a semantical argument, to which I would respond, "so what." Gould created something extremely worthwhile, for the sake of the art.
-
Clearly Hendrix should have never covered Wild Thing.
-
I wonder how Gail Zappa feels about the Lido....
-
I wish we all had giant avatars.
-
A better approach might be to ignore the best golfers in the world and built it closer to the original scale, with perhaps some small adjustment to reflect the change in technology for the average player, but not the top golfer.
Why not build for the average player? The player that represents the masses.
Tim,
Could you name ten (10) courses built for the average player ?
-
Pat,
IMO, no good golf course gets built exactly to plan.
Agreed, but that doesn't mean that the difference in design is unacceptable.
There is always field decisions because no matter how good anyone thinks they are at building a course in the office, it gets changed for the better in the field.
I'd tend to agree with that as well.
So far, we're in perfect harmony ;D
If someone had what they thought was a good plan, and hired an architect to adapt the plan to a certain piece of ground, then I'd be fine with that. If they do that, the first thing to change will be the plan to better fit the ground, and then while the course is getting built, it will be edited in the field.
The reason that I might take exception to that is the "ground" you're talking about at Streamsong, and the ease of altering that ground to meet the design of Lido.
What I am against is taking a course from another region, on different soils, in a different climate, with a different builder, construction superintendent, client, equipment....on and on, and claim they can rebuild the same course.
But, to a lesser degree, isn't that almost exactly what was done at ANGC ?
Wasn't the intent to replicate design principles found at TOC ?
I think that worked out pretty well, wouldn't you agree ?
That is disingenuous because no matter what the techno nerds may say, I'm calling BS on it being pulled off.
And yet, Old Macdonald not only lives, but, enjoys exalted status.
Are they trying to rebuild the Lido with the routing, holes sequencing, and golf features replicated as close as possible?
I couldn't answer that, but, I would hope so.
Or will they take the plan, concede it was not drawn with central Florida in mind, and allow the architect to take those 18 hole concepts and arrange them to best fit the land?
Don, I think your lack of familiarity with Long Beach, LI is getting in the way of your objectivity and conclusions.
If you look at the aerials of Streamsong that Jim Kennedy provided, and then look at aerials of Long Beach, LI, you won't find them to be too disimilar.
Both are relatively flat plots of land with Streamsong having slightly more in elevation changes.
Hence, I don't think "inserting" Lido onto that site would be a departure from what nature (?) presents
If they do that, then I think the course will be better, but it will not be THE Lido.
"The King is dead, long live the King" may not just apply to the order of succession in monarchies.
Streamsong's Lido, if it is in fact replicated, just might become THE Lido to those absent a sense of history.
Thus I'm curious what they have in mind.
Me too.
-
Allow me to offer a defense of Tour-18 in Houston.
For the majority of golfers, who will never have the opportunity to play Augusta, playing a replica of Amen corner, however inaccurate, is a lot of fun.
Having played only a couple of the real holes that were replicated at Tour-18, I could clearly see the inaccuracies and difference due to location and routing. For the other holes, which I will likely never get to play for real, it was simply fun to play and imagine. What is the down side?
Fun – isn’t that what the game is all about?
Dave,
Forgive me for being a bit of a golf architecture snob. I agree many golfers probably enjoy the Augusta holes.
My favorite is the Sawgrass hole, I guess because there is really nothing attractive about the original and so the Tour 18 version doesn't seem like much of a step down.
Otherwise, having seen many of the originals detracts quite a bit, but play it as scrabble in some corporate or industry outing and, yeah, I guess I can have fun.
-
Let's not forget that one of the great modern day designers, Pete Dye employed replicas
-
Let's not forget that one of the great modern day designers, Pete Dye employed replicas
Which holes at The Golf Club were replicas?
Which holes at Harbour Town were replicas?
Just asking as those were the two courses that made him well known.
-
Let's not forget that one of the great modern day designers, Pete Dye employed replicas
Which holes at The Golf Club were replicas?
Which holes at Harbour Town were replicas?
Just asking as those were the two courses that made him well known.
Tom Doak,
I didn't know that The Golf Club and Harbour Town were the only two courses that Pete designed.
But, If you've ever played Old Marsh, the 6th hole in particular, I think you'll recognize the template.
As to Harbour Town, I was fortunate enough to be playing with Pete when he was designing/building the course about 46 years ago.
Some of the things I remember him telling me was that he was influenced by what he saw in the UK and that he was going to incorporate 50 gallon drums and railroad ties when building the course.
This was the first time that I had met him, although he knew my dad from the insurance business.
It was also around the time I was begining to develop an interest in golf course architecture, hence, I absorbed every word.
We had a terrific time despite being match play competitors in a tournament.
-
Patrick:
No doubt, Mr. Dye fell back on a few favorite ideas later in his career, like the short par-4 with the blind green at Old Marsh. [I believe it's the 5th hole, not the 6th.] That hole was a copy of the 5th at Long Cove, where I happened to work, which was the first time he'd built such a hole. I believe it was inspired by the 14th at North Berwick.
He also built several Redan holes, and of course the many par-4 finishing holes gently curving along a lake.
Pete had a lot of very flat sites where he had to create holes from scratch, and he needed ideas to start with. It's much harder to keep doing that over and over again without repeating yourself. Personally, though, I was sad to see it. To me, what made Pete a great architect was having the guts to build that hole in the first place ... not repeating it on ten other sites.
-
Tom,
# 5 it is.
I wonder, how much of a heavy work load leads the architect toward replication rather than creation ?
Time is the friend of the house in a casino, and I would imagine the same applies to the course the architect is crafting.
But, when an architect has multiple projects, at what point/number does creativity begin to suffer ?
At what point does it become expedient to insert a pre-fab ?
-
At what point does it become expedient to insert a pre-fab ?
For some architects, it is the day after they sign the deal.
I don't think Mr. Dye ever made concessions in his designs because of the time factor. He spent more time on site on a project like Long Cove or Old Marsh than most of us ever do. I just think it was difficult to keep starting from nothing and have to find inspiration. It's hard enough on one project, not to mention five or ten. When I worked for Pete, it was not unknown for him to tell one of the shapers to just go do something ... I can't use the precise language of his instructions here :) ... so he would have something to work from besides a flat expanse.