Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture Discussion Group => Topic started by: Gary Sato on February 08, 2015, 05:52:02 PM
-
The winter edition of Links Magazine has an article of 14 UNLOVED golf courses . It is written by Tom Doak.
They are:
Scotland
St. Andrews (old) (Rated #4 course in the world)
Askernish
North Berwick (Rated #68 in the world)
Elie
England
St. Enodoc
Cavendish
St. Georges Hill
Royal St. George’s (Rated #29 in the world)
Northern Ireland
Royal Portrush (Valley)
Wales
Pennard
United States
Mid Pines
Fenway
Europe
DePan
New Zealand
Arrowtown
To me, any course that is rated as a world top 100 course in not unloved especially the 4th ranked course by Golf Magazine? In my limited experience, I would select Yale and possibly Pasatiempo as the most unloved.
Any others?
-
Carnoustie
and I seriously have to question North Berwick-even Touring pros praise it
-
How could you possibly not love North Berwick?
-
Just for the record: Tom Doak does not say the courses are "unloved." The cover and the title of the article do. Sales job, don't ya know.
Mr. Doak says merely that the 14 courses are among "the many courses you *should* see."
On the other hand, I presume that the editors of LINKS did not insert the irrelevant dig at George W. Bush.
-
Scotland
St. Andrews (old) (Rated #4 course in the world) Its all talk...people love the course even when scratching their heads.
Askernish A bit too soon to make a call.
North Berwick (Rated #68 in the world) Not sure of the logic here.
Elie
Royal St. George’s (Rated #29 in the world) Have to agree since the course is in England...the name should be a clue.
England
St. Enodoc This one is a bit like N Berwick...well loved and respected by most who play it.
Cavendish Agree.
St. Georges Hill I rarely hear a bad word said about the place.
Northern Ireland
Royal Portrush (Valley) Agreed and hence the changes to host a tourny...on another course :-\
Wales
Pennard Another like N Berwick, really well loved, but it somehow doesn't translate in the rankings.
United States
Mid Pines Maybe the redo needs more time?
Fenway
Europe
DePan
New Zealand
Arrowtown
Ciao
-
I have played 8 of these and am a member at one. Those I have played share mant things (quirk being one) but I cannot, for the life of me, see in what context they could be described as unloved. And yes, as Sean points out, any list that has RSG in Scotland is of dubious value.
-
And yes, as Sean points out, any list that has RSG in Scotland is of dubious value.
My mistake, error corrected.
-
Among truly great courses that a lack of love occurs:
US Yale
Engineers
Laurel Links
CC of Buffalo
Rustic Canyon
Ireland Baltray
Island
Scotland St. Andrews New
Carnoustie
Craig
England Fornby
Stoke Park
Chart Hills
Deal
Saunton (both)
Sunningdale New
-
I'd agree with Mid-Pines. Great restoration, and course. Just wonderful par 4's, really makes you appreciate how you attack each hole, and the angles.
-
I was asked to write on "underrated" courses ... after negotiating my way out of writing about "overrated" courses.
Unloved is something very different, I think.
-
I was asked to write on "underrated" courses ... after negotiating my way out of writing about "overrated" courses.
Unloved is something very different, I think.
What, the press using a quote out of context!!!!!! Surely not :o It says a lot about the sheer genius and quality of TOC when ranked as 4th best in the world it is still considered underrated.
Jon
-
I was asked to write on "underrated" courses ... after negotiating my way out of writing about "overrated" courses.
Unloved is something very different, I think.
That makes a whole lot more sense!
-
IMNSHO, the site of the first Open Championship does not get the dap it deserves. I find it particularly galling when unobservant, provincial idiots from America spend the time and money to travel and play in the British Isles - only to return having no better understanding of the game than when they left.
To me, Prestwick and Monty Python are perfect litmus tests. If you do not love them, I have no interest in the rest of your opinions because both require a sense of humor.
Cruden Bay does not get nearly enough love either. While we're on the subject, a well-traveled older gentlemen recently suggested I ought to have my head examined when I opined I'd rather play Lahinch than Ballybunnion Old.
As a general rule, golf courses in the U.K. and Ireland can be roughly divided between whimsical adventure (North Berwick) or objective examination (Carnasty). Great movie comedies hardly ever get taken seriously enough either.
-
I was asked to write on "underrated" courses ... after negotiating my way out of writing about "overrated" courses.
Unloved is something very different, I think.
Is it kind of like 'respected only' and thus unloved? Unendearing? Emotionally Unengaging?
Would Firestone be in this category?
-
I was asked to write on "underrated" courses ... after negotiating my way out of writing about "overrated" courses.
Tom --
As I suspected. See post No. 4 in this thread.
However:
Your introduction to the piece in LINKS pointedly observes, of the original Confidential Guide: "... it's been infamous primarily for its negative reviews because it's rare to find any golf publication willing to take the chance of offending a potential advertiser."
And now you tell us, here, that you *found* that rare publication -- and negotiated your way out of it?
What a pity. I'd have thought that a balanced list of both "overrated" and "underrated" would have been quite useful and interesting to the readers of LINKS.
Dan
-
Love the inclusion of Mid-Pines, so true. Even in the sandhills area it is underrated, but that is rapidly changing. I think within 5 years Mid-pines will be on everyone's Top-2 list of which Pinehurst courses to play.
And yes, many other courses in the area could use similar type renovations/restorations.
-
In terms of overrated and emotionally unengaging, Troon is at the top of the list. I'm also not sure that Winged Foot West has an ounce more charm than Carmoustie, which would be one ounce above zero. If I belonged to W.F., I'd play the little brother every day and probably never set foot on the other tee. I prefer beauty with brains.
Famous venues whose primary selling point is 18 holes of self-flagellation are always popular with the scratch player S&M crowd - but for those of us not into leather, they go the bottom of the list - right there with Medinah, Firestone, Oakmont, Atlanta Athletic Club, Oakland Hills, Aronomink and Southern Hills.
It always surprises me how often middle handicappers come back from playing these courses, raving about how much they enjoyed it - as if being horsewhipped and sodomized by Bubba wearing a sandpaper condom is somehow more fun than going around Fox Chapel or Shoreacres. And If I'm going to be put through the paces, I'd rather climb in the sack with Anna Kournikova (Muirfield) than Venus Williams (Butler National).
I understand how the mentality of many low-handicappers leads to these one-dimensional beasts getting overrated by some of my fellow panelists, but when they elbow courses like Pasatiempo off the list, I strenuously object.
-
Sandpaper condoms and sodomy??? Good Lord I better rethink hanging out with you guys.
Mucci I assume there is no hotel at this spring venue for golf and dinner?
What's next farm animals?
-
Gib,
You do have a wonderful way with words. I find the image of Bubba with his parerphanalia quite stimulating.
Bob
-
Certainly in Chicago the two most fun courses Ive played are Old Elm and Chicago, far better than a 7200 yard US Open style monster. At least at those two Bubba would be using lube!
-
Might have just gotten a multi-layered tour of Gib's psyche that I hadn't bargained for, but I can roll with it.
Although underrated, I think Old Elm falls into a different category. Their membership is more of the "please don't rate our course" variety. As I understand it, after the restoration by Drew Rogers and Dave Zinkand, there was a LINKS Magazine article about the course that was to be published. The membership put the kibosh on it.
I do agree though about how fun it is. I loved it before, and now after the work, it is right in my top 3 of courses I could play every day for the rest of my life.
-
Aiken Golf Club, which might be due to its short length.
-
I don't understand, will have to read the article.
-
I was asked to write on "underrated" courses ... after negotiating my way out of writing about "overrated" courses.
The cover says "Unloved, These 14 courses deserve much more respect".
The lead in to the article is " The Great Unloved, Tom Doak-famous for knocking down golf courses that get too much praise - names 14 that deserve more".
No link yet on the Links Magazine web site.
-
Two courses that don't get enough praise in my book are Exmoor in Highland Park, Illinois and Pine Hills in Sheboygan, WI.
-
Scotland
St. Andrews (old) (Rated #4 course in the world)
Askernish
North Berwick (Rated #68 in the world)
Elie
England
St. Enodoc
Cavendish
St. Georges Hill
Royal St. George’s (Rated #29 in the world)
Northern Ireland
Royal Portrush (Valley)
Really?
I think Cavendish and Askernish would be better described as unknown.
I really don't think Royal Portrush Valley is unloved. But it is a very different proposition to Dunluce.
The queues at TOC suggest many love it, or at least want to play it.
For some of these, I would be rather glad they are not as well known as they might, and keep them as our little secret.
-
Speaking of St.Georges hill , Darius Oliver calls is it the prettiest and possibly the best of all heathland courses.Doesnt sound like any lack of love to me.
-
To Tom Doak --
It is the writer's lot to be misunderstood by those who cannot read!
To various others --
This is what Mr. Doak said, by way of explanation, earlier in this very thread:
"I was asked to write on 'underrated' courses ... after negotiating my way out of writing about 'overrated' courses.
"Unloved is something very different, I think."
Dan
-
Gentlemen (as we chased off all the ladies with our pedantic dissections of minutiae),
Since admission to the Treehouse requires highly refined sensibilities rarely found among the unwashed hoi polloi, I do not think it is a coincidence that under-appreciated courses tend towards shorter, clever architecture - often combined with unusual feature work. I’m struggling to think of a single unloved layout of real merit that would not be considered a bit too easy for modern gunners armed with a howitzer.
This seems to be the demarcation line; it is possible real scratchmen are playing a different game than we mortals - and are therefore immune to the charms of a quirky layout of abbreviated length. I’ve played enough golf with Tom to know we hit the ball roughly the same distance and have similar skills; both of us are pretty good, but hardly great and therefore unable to simply overpower a Prestwick or Lahinch.
Classical strategies have become largely irrelevant with the march of technology - which seems to exponentially benefit stronger players by a factor of at least five. My findings several years ago demonstrated that a new driver set up (and the optimum ball) for my particular specs would AT BEST obtain 5-8 yards more off the tee with about 20% better shot dispersion. Pretty damned good, right? There is a big-ass difference between hitting a 4-iron and a 5-iron into an elevated green.
Put that same advantage in the hands of a low-handicapper (not one like me that depends on an arsenal of cutesy fluff shots) with some bat speed and while the dispersion might only improve 5-10%, the increase in carry and roll distance is often between 30-40 yards. Once a youngster stands on the first tee armed with a viagra drip in their golf bag (like he needs any more advantage), the game changes.
When confronted with a Redan, I’m fingering my 4-iron or rescue club - trying to figure out where to land my tee shot to catch the bounce and feed to the pin. 27 year-old Justin Kaboom, ignoring the contours of the green complex, whips out his over-length 7-iron, tees up a Super Ball and hits a towering cut that drops out of the sky next to the pin. So ended the Crimean War - as C.B. Macdonald spins in his grave.
I’ve come to believe the newfound spiritual awakening spreading through the G.D. Panel stems from the simple fact the average age appears to have climbed the last few years. Most of us are not quite so spiffy off the tee anymore - and there are more broom handles and horse-cock grips on our flat sticks than Bulls Eye blades with skinny-ass leather wraps. This tends to give some perspective once you’re standing too close to the ball after you hit it. BTW, I finally concluded the cure for whiskey fingers is not more fucking whiskey, but that is a plaintive tale for the next K.P.
Selah.
-
I’ve come to believe the newfound spiritual awakening spreading through the G.D. Panel stems from the simple fact the average age appears to have climbed the last few years.
Agree with all you wrote,but this seems worthy of discussion. Has GD's panel had a spiritual golf course design awakening or just realized that their raters are no longer good enough to score on courses they formerly considered "great"?
BTW--ever met any washed hoi polloi?
-
I’ve come to believe the newfound spiritual awakening spreading through the G.D. Panel stems from the simple fact the average age appears to have climbed the last few years.
Agree with all you wrote,but this seems worthy of discussion. Has GD's panel had a spiritual golf course design awakening or just realized that their raters are no longer good enough to score on courses they formerly considered "great"?
BTW--ever met any washed hoi polloi?
I would say the awakening may have more to do with the large number of GD's panel that are trained by Brad Klein before they "jump" ship.
-
When confronted with a Redan, I’m fingering my 4-iron or rescue club - trying to figure out where to land my tee shot to catch the bounce and feed to the pin. 27 year-old Justin Kaboom, ignoring the contours of the green complex, whips out his over-length 7-iron, tees up a Super Ball and hits a towering cut that drops out of the sky next to the pin. So ended the Crimean War - as C.B. Macdonald spins in his grave.
Even without the priceless "Justin Kaboom" -- which needs to be a character in the next comic golf novel ("Fifty Shades of Green"?) -- this is perfect.
-
Barny,
I don't know anybody aside from me who marched under both flags - not that I want you to out anybody. Although it has been many years, there is no doubt Brad's panelists reflected a great appreciation for charm and quirk. My knowledge is certainly dated, but GW golf course ratings perhaps leaned more towards visceral impressions and philosophical prejudices than hard-core analysis. Not sure if my friend Jon Cummings (rocket scientist/golf writer) is still in charge of organizing the Golf Week numbers. My assertion would be the average handicap on the GD panel at one time was quite a bit lower than the Golf Week gang, but I'm not sure if that is the case any longer. We are all getting older - so perhaps the gap is closing a bit.
Whitten has always been a whole lot less dogmatic and though his system is long on categorical analysis, Ron is the last guy to demand group-think. I don't always agree with him, but since he admitted to me NGLA is his favorite course in America (note: FAVORITE, not greatest), its no wonder I tend to naturally see things his way.
Look John, tastes in fad and fashion change and evolve. I tried to get that across in my Art & Architecture opinion piece a few years ago. I think American expectations and taste have undergone a Renaissance (no pun intended) - and the GD Panel reflects it pretty well. 20 years ago, the idea of NGLA being rated ahead of one of those mean-spirited obstacle course was unthinkable. Maybe Brad was ahead of his time - the enfant terrible of the ratings game - but entrenched institutions tend to embrace change more slowly.
-
Nice! But perhaps, as you and JME have already intimated, it may also be a case of needs-based value systems. To paraphrase badly a line I once read: "Every profession confirms the validity of its own biases. A discussion amongst grammarians about the causes of World War II would conclude that Chamberlain had misunderstood Hitler's grammar". Many are wearing the bottoms of our trousers rolled, and the mermaids are no longer (for the most part) singing their songs to us -- and so lo-and-behold we now re-discover the great value and worth in the once-forgotten "sporty" course. And that's okay too, I suppose.
Peter
-
Hi,
Just a late chime in here...
Fenway - TD...even without the semantics of unloved, underrated...this course. I was wondering what your opinion is of the middle of that course?
One of the reasons I tamp down my own praise for this very fine course is its middle...holes 7-14...the first six are among the most enjoyable opening act to be found... the closing four are bold, varied, require precise play to be advantaged... a comprehensive "last section" of completing a good round... but those middle 8 are not up to the standards before and after them, significantly under them, though #13 is a rewarding hole and is a welcome difference from the six before it.
But doesn't Fenway deserve some sanction, some underrating, for the near identical "sameness" of #7 & 10, AND #s 8 & 12?... For the awkwardness of #9, the plainness of #14?...For the capricious, charmless 11th?
Also:
... I'm also not sure that Winged Foot West has an ounce more charm than Carmoustie, which would be one ounce above zero. If I belonged to W.F., I'd play the little brother every day and probably never set foot on the other tee. I prefer beauty with brains.
While the "set-foot on the other tee" is overstated, this statement was on the mark. I observe that the more one (outing guest, guest, member) plays there, the more the East is valued and desired... To extend the "beauty with brains" analogy, I'll say the West is like a former Miss America-now-gold-digging MILF-Cougar with enormous knockers, who leaves marks, and tells you not to get too attached b/c you're not that great in the sack to begin with; she was just horny. By comparison, the East is like a comely young widow with whom you strike up a conversation at a driving range where she is by herself in the stall, who just took up golf, and is an unexpectedly, absolute twisted freak in bed. You get married, have a few kids, and later celebrate your 50th wedding anniversary by playing TOC for the first time.
cheers
vk
-
Can I offer up Cape Breton Highlands (Highland Links) as unloved?
Architecturally its among the one or two best we have , but every rating says its barely in the top 10