Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture Discussion Group => Topic started by: Patrick_Mucci on January 20, 2015, 10:34:14 PM
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Is it strictly the imposition of northern mentalities ?
The desire for "GREEN ?
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I find that overseeding happens more regularly at daily fee courses where retail golfers think green is critical. Our private club only overseeded the practice tee. Our members appreciate the firm playing surface while accepting the brown surface.
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Pat,
I think green is the driving reason.
But, from a playability standpoint, if you have heavy soils, and if you are in an area that gets frost for up to three months, and if the winter season is your high revenue season, then it may make sense to overseed. The reason is while DRY dormant bermuda is a fine surface, wet is not, and dormant grass will not use up the water that falls from the sky, thus the dormant surface can get pretty sloppy during wet periods. Lots of if/then in my statement, and as sacrilegious as it may sound here on GCA, there are courses where overseeding helps provide a better surface during the winter.
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I love the move by many clubs to not-overseeding, as the playing surface is fantastic, yet there is no doubt, but for most golfers "green" drives the show.
To get the green, some clubs such as Augusta CC have the sups spray a green color on their fairways while leaving the other areas brown. It's fantastic.
But I agree with Don that wet dormant Bermuda is a tough surface to play on.
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But dry dormant Bermuda is a great surface.
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Pat,
I think green is the driving reason.
But, from a playability standpoint, if you have heavy soils, and if you are in an area that gets frost for up to three months, and if the winter season is your high revenue season, then it may make sense to overseed.
Hi Don,
You were probably alluding to this when you mentioned high-revenue season, but doesn't amount of play also play a part in determining an overseeding program? Due to lack of re-growth of dormant grasses, would the playing surfaces of a club or public facility that receives heavy play deteriorate at a rate that eventually affects play? Or am I overestimating the divot problem?
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Pat, the simple answer to your question is YES. Most retail recreational golfers( 99%) here in the desert prefer GREEN and they like their shots played from green grass, not brown dormant grass that doesn't look a like a golf course from wherever they came from .
Yes, dry dormant Bermuda grass is a great playing surface but heavy use in prime winter season here in the desert, as pointed out, can adversely effect course conditions when the warm weather returns in May/June and the Bermuda grass starts growing. My residential club does about 100,000 rounds/year on 45 holes, the bulk of which occurs in prime season from November to April. We over seed in September/October and essentially close for that period and return with cart path only for two weeks so we lose a lot of play(and revenue) during that time. The resort courses here can afford to double over seed to keep their surfaces in really good shape. We don't and sometimes an over seed gets thinned out when an early frost occurs, as it did this year. Some clubs here may use "liquid over seeding" to save costs as referenced in this prior thread:
http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,59955.25.html
Also, this was posted on a website for a course in North Phoenix:
The golf course was overseeded and came in beautifully. Unfortunately, we encountered an incident during the grow-in period which eliminated the winter rye for the season. The course is now dormant Bermuda with green dye to outline the fairways. The greens are quick and the fairways have tight lies much like a European links style course. We have made adjustments to daily green fees and are working on a dynamic price structure. Please visit our bookings page for our best golf prices. As the Bermuda wakes up in the Spring, we will keep you updated with pictures and then return to our normal pricing structure.
http://www.dovevalleyranch.com/
I recently played there and enjoyed the fast and firm experience; however, since Bermuda doesn't grow in our now cooler temps, I'd hate to return there in March as the course will be beat up from play.
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Pat, I think it is 100% a marketing strategy. You see it almost exclusively at resort, real estate, and daily fee courses; almost never at private clubs except perhaps on tee boxes.
Overseeding is for a look only. It isn't an especially good playing surface, even compared to soggy, dormant bermuda as winter wears on, and FAR inferior to dormant bermuda when it is dry. It also means more maintenance, since it has to be mowed, and it tends retard the green-up of the bermuda in the spring. I can't imagine that very many (if any?) supers would want any part of overseeding; it's a decision that is being driven by marketing alone.
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In my experience here in the Southeastern US, I agree with Don's post.
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We don't get frozen turf here in Northwest Florida very often so overseeding would really be just for color. A little dye on the greens takes care of that. Back when we did overseed, transition in the spring was always difficult, a couple of weeks of prime playing time with areas where the Bermuda had to fight its way back through the winter poa overseed. Not overseeding has been ever so much better.
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In my experience here in the Southeastern US, I agree with Don's post.
Me too. My super at the last club I worked at has explained it the very same.
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Pat,
I think green is the driving reason.
But, from a playability standpoint, if you have heavy soils, and if you are in an area that gets frost for up to three months, and if the winter season is your high revenue season, then it may make sense to overseed.
Hi Don,
You were probably alluding to this when you mentioned high-revenue season, but doesn't amount of play also play a part in determining an overseeding program? Due to lack of re-growth of dormant grasses, would the playing surfaces of a club or public facility that receives heavy play deteriorate at a rate that eventually affects play? Or am I overestimating the divot problem?
Divots are a factor -- maybe not a huge factor, but golfers like when the divots are filled with seed that germinates in four days.
The other factor is cart traffic. If you're going to put carts on fairways, they will wear out dormant bermuda, or even semi-dormant bermuda as we've found out at Streamsong. Overseeding is a potential solution for that. So is banning carts.
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I overseed my modest yard. It looks fabulous and evokes a smile when I turn in. The moles seem to like it too.
Bogey
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I overseed my modest yard. It looks fabulous and evokes a smile when I turn in. The moles seem to like it too.
Bogey
Yes, but is it fast and firm?
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Don & AG,
In Southern Florida, rain in the winter isn't much of a factor.
Of the courses I've played in Southern Florida, months after the overseeding, they're still "ratty" looking and inconsistent in both the fairway and rough.
Of the courses I've played in Southern Florida that didn't overseed, the playing surfaces were exceptional.
Given the choice of "color" or "playability" I'll take playability every time.
What I'm surprised at is that few golfers would agree with my choice.
Does anyone know when overseeding began or took hold in Southern Florida ?
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Is it strictly the imposition of northern mentalities ?
The desire for "GREEN ?
Speaking for Arizona, I think it is definitely the desire for green driven primarily by the tourism economy.
The warm winter climate brings lots of tourist dollars and there is a glut of courses competing for those dollars. Course A overseeded with lush green rye grass will attract more business that Course B with dormant turf. That's a fact Jack.
99.9% of the golf public perceives green as the expected color of a golf course and the dormant surface is brown and brown is equated with dead, undermaintained grass.
When I first moved to the area 35 years ago, there were only a handful of courses that would overseed more than greens and tees. By the end of the 90's, virtually every course overseeded greens, tees and fairways with quite a few of the high end courses including the roughs in what we call a "wall to wall" overseed.
Only in the past few years have I noticed an increasing number (still relatively few in the overall picture) of facilities cutting back and letting the fairways go dormant. A smaller few even forgoing the green overseed (more popular with the newer ultra dwarf strains of Bermuda that seem to have a shorter dormant period). I'm sure it's a trend that is economically driven as I understand it is quite expensive to overseed. Unfortunately, there are few golfers that recognize the joy and playability of the dormant surface and these facilities will struggle to compete.
I always say the the overseed screws up the course twice. A full two months (or more) of misery during the fall grow-in, the success of which is a crap-shoot based on unknown weather (see Steve's mention of the failure at Dove Valley Ranch). A course can't just close and start the overseed when the weather report looks good. They have to set a date on the calendar months in advance and hope for the best.
Then in the spring, when the Bermuda should start growing again in March, it has to compete with the rye up until May or June, and when the rye finally dies off, you've got stressed Bermuda trying to come in during the hottest and driest period of the year. So you get another month of patchy conditions which improve through the summer, aided by the July/August "monsoon" moisture and humidity up through mid September when the summer turf is in absolutely the most brilliant condition - just in time to be scalped down and the whole cycle starts over again.
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Tom,
Sorry to stray off of Florida, but does Phoenix CC just overseed just their rough? I recall receiving an email a year ago about this from an WSJ article. I thought that would be a great compromise, for I love dormant fairways. With the cart technology Duke U course uses you can control where carts go, keeping them off the dormant fairway if the club/owners wanted to. Is Fairway painting becoming more prevalent in Arizona?
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I am a member at a private club in Georgia that has two courses in different locations. The downtown club has Zoysia fairways with bermuda rough. We do not overseed that course. Our out of town club has all bermuda and we overseed in the winter. The course we overseed sits by a river and has creeks running throughout the course. If we did not overseed, it would be a sloppy mess during the winter. A wish for "firm and fast" dormant bermuda would turn into "thin and muddy".
I will say the greens are running FAST. Dormant (and painted) Champions bermuda greens are fast when there is no moisture in the blades.
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Desire for green is clearly a major reason for overseeding, but you cannot ignore conditioning issues. Playing many thousands of rounds on a golf course that isn't growing is inevitably going to result in conditions worsening. So the question on overseer really becomes: how long will the grass go dormant for, and how many rounds are likely to be played in that time. I am led to believe that, in the far south of Florida, bermuda is not truly dormant for very long in the average winter. So it becomes a calculated risk: will the grass start growing again before the divots and wear from foot and cart traffic start to have a significant impact on the state of the course.
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Speaking only about my home course and the very occasional resort course winter round, I'll say I'm not a fan of the way an non-overseeded course looks and plays from about the end of February through March or early April. Many, many divots either empty or sand-filled. Worn out muddy dormant Bermuda. Pretty ugly and not an ideal playing surface by any means.
That said, I'm still 100% against overseeding. If I'm going to have eight weeks of poor fairway conditions I'd rather it be in February/March when the weather sucks and there are weekends I can't play anyway due to cold or rain. Not in the most beautiful golfing weather of the year in late spring and again in late fall when the overseed transition happens.
I'd rather get the bad weather and poor turf all out of the way together during Feb/March. Then it's 10 months of great golf and 2 months of pretty poor golf.
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Tom,
Sorry to stray off of Florida, but does Phoenix CC just overseed just their rough? I recall receiving an email a year ago about this from an WSJ article. I thought that would be a great compromise, for I love dormant fairways. With the cart technology Duke U course uses you can control where carts go, keeping them off the dormant fairway if the club/owners wanted to. Is Fairway painting becoming more prevalent in Arizona?
I'm not aware of the practice at PCC but that sure sounds interesting and would be neat to see - a sort of reverse image of the typical presentation.
I should point out that my observations come primarily from the public side. Private clubs obviously can do what suits the membership, but it is my understanding that overseeding is still predominant and suggestions from more forward thinking members to experiment with letting the turf go dormant are as likely to cause a fight as are proposals for tree removal.
Just a note: There are a few clubs located with a bit higher elevations in the foothills that are maintaining bent greens which don't need to be overseeded.
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I love the move by many clubs to not-overseeding, as the playing surface is fantastic, yet there is no doubt, but for most golfers "green" drives the show.
To get the green, some clubs such as Augusta CC have the sups spray a green color on their fairways while leaving the other areas brown. It's fantastic.
But I agree with Don that wet dormant Bermuda is a tough surface to play on.
Pinehurst #2 paints the fairways and saw the same at Tobacco Road last month. To me it looks cheesy. From afar it might make the course look "green", but when you're out walking on the course it just looks like a green film-like mucus is covering the grass.
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I can only name a few clubs in SFLA that still seed, last I knew-Boca Rio, Everglades, Delray Dunes, Breakers, Admirals Cove, (renovation this summer) PGA National to name a few. Most do not, publics included.
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I can only name a few clubs in SFLA that still seed, last I knew-Boca Rio, Everglades, Delray Dunes, Breakers, Admirals Cove, (renovation this summer) PGA National to name a few. Most do not, publics included.
Anthony,
Add Adios to the list.
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Adam,
Mother Nature can certainly dictate outcomes, but, the quality of a non-overseeded course, especially with the new grasses available, seems to be so far superior to overseeded courses.
The overseeded courses also lose three months going in and out of the overseeding process.
I'm also not so sure that I buy the "cart traffic" argument on dormant bermuda.
Common/Ormond Bermuda was around for decades in South Florida while carts were in full use.
The biggest objection to that grass was that it turned purplish in the winter.
And, today, almost every south Florida course has tee to green cart paths, many with curbs on the par 3's and around greens and tees.
With the new grasses, I just don't see the need for overseeding, unless the membership likes lush, green conditions where the ball sits up in the fairway.
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Pat,
I should know better.....but....in your original post you said clubs in Florida, now it is clubs in southern Florida.
I am not a proponent of overseeding.
I overseeded for many. many years and know all to well the challenges.
In my post, one of my "ifs" was if your course was in an area that had frost for 3 months or more (not southern Florida in most years) and if your course was on heavy soils (not sure how many courses you mention are built on clay)....but if you had those conditions and the majority of your revenue came in winter months, then you may have to overseed.
But if you are in Southern Florida in almost frost free zones and especially if you are on sand as well, I can't imagine any good argument being made for overseeding...except if you have an exclusively snow bird membership and they only want to play golf from Nov-April.
if that is the case (think ANGC) you can get an overseeded course in pretty darn good condition. It'll suck going in and coming out of overseed, but if no one is playing golf and the membership has $$$ and wants ANGC like conditions in the winter...have at it.
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The other factor is cart traffic. If you're going to put carts on fairways, they will wear out dormant bermuda, or even semi-dormant bermuda as we've found out at Streamsong. Overseeding is a potential solution for that. So is banning carts.
I like the idea of banning carts, but short of that, is anyone out there overseeding just high traffic areas as a grass retention measure?
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We have 419 Bermuda in Dallas and do not overseed.It seems that the 419 greens quicker than common Bermuda,but not sure.Carts stay on paths in winter. We had some green until a few weeks ago and in February should start greening a little again.I think the greens look nice against the brown.We get little rain and the course plays maybe too fast for most to handle. Isn't the transition from winter to spring tough when you overseed?
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I can only name a few clubs in SFLA that still seed, last I knew-Boca Rio, Everglades, Delray Dunes, Breakers, Admirals Cove, (renovation this summer) PGA National to name a few. Most do not, publics included.
Anthony,
Add Adios to the list.
On brand new Celebration? Interesting. Most courses go to Celebration to get away from seeding.
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I can only name a few clubs in SFLA that still seed, last I knew-Boca Rio, Everglades, Delray Dunes, Breakers, Admirals Cove, (renovation this summer) PGA National to name a few. Most do not, publics included.
Anthony,
Add Adios to the list.
On brand new Celebration? Interesting. Most courses go to Celebration to get away from seeding.
They just went to celebration, they overseeded for as long as I can remember.
I think Trump also overseeds
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Pat,
I think green is the driving reason.
But, from a playability standpoint, if you have heavy soils, and if you are in an area that gets frost for up to three months, and if the winter season is your high revenue season, then it may make sense to overseed.
Hi Don,
You were probably alluding to this when you mentioned high-revenue season, but doesn't amount of play also play a part in determining an overseeding program? Due to lack of re-growth of dormant grasses, would the playing surfaces of a club or public facility that receives heavy play deteriorate at a rate that eventually affects play? Or am I overestimating the divot problem?
Divots are a factor -- maybe not a huge factor, but golfers like when the divots are filled with seed that germinates in four days.
The other factor is cart traffic. If you're going to put carts on fairways, they will wear out dormant bermuda, or even semi-dormant bermuda as we've found out at Streamsong. Overseeding is a potential solution for that. So is banning carts.
Tom,
March, April and May are three terrific weather months in Southern Florida and with an earlier start date for "Daylight Savings" it would seem that December, January and February would be the perilous months when cart control might be more necessary.
Are cart paths the solution to resort golf and no overseeing ?
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I can only name a few clubs in SFLA that still seed, last I knew-Boca Rio, Everglades, Delray Dunes, Breakers, Admirals Cove, (renovation this summer) PGA National to name a few. Most do not, publics included.
Anthony,
Add Adios to the list.
On brand new Celebration? Interesting. Most courses go to Celebration to get away from seeding.
They just went to celebration, they overseeded for as long as I can remember.
I think Trump also overseeds
No seed at Trump. PGA seeds for the tournament. Will be just roughs this year, as they regrassed shortgrass to celebration.
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"I can't wait to overseed" said no superintentendent, ever. I find it interesting around here (sandhills of NC) that golfers several years ago would call a club to see if they over seeded and would play there only if they had. Now the complete opposite is true. They value the playing characteristics of dormant Bermuda vs. the overseed especially in the fall.
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"I can't wait to overseed" said no superintentendent, ever. I find it interesting around here (sandhills of NC) that golfers several years ago would call a club to see if they over seeded and would play there only if they had. Now the complete opposite is true. They value the playing characteristics of dormant Bermuda vs. the overseed especially in the fall.
So many benefits to NOT seeding. I have to beleive that the trend will continue as golf becomes more expensive, fertilizer more costly and water more scarce.
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John Jeffreys,
My favorite of the Desert Mountain courses, Outlaw, just initiated overseeing.
It's my understanding that it was the only course that didn't overseed, and that it was the members that wanted "green".
The course used to play F&F.
I haven't played it this year but would be interested to hear from others who played it Pre and Post overseeding.
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Pat,
I'm curious as to if the ''Outlaw'' course was cart path only when it was dormant? If so, that could get people wanting overseeded fairways. Also if there was a video showing people how much yardage off the tee they are losing and ground game into the greens, do you think they would reconsider their decisions? Also with lower spinning balls and stronger lofts in fairway woods, do you think that might contribute to people(avg golfer) wanting the ball teed up more (rye)? A 7 wood now, is a 5 wood loft 20 years ago.
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Ben,
I don't know about Outlaw's official cart restrictions, but it was built as a VERY walkable course. When I played there a majority of the members were walking. I'm sure cart traffic there would be much less than the other DM courses, especially during the cooler months where the turf was dormant.
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Pat,
I'm curious as to if the ''Outlaw'' course was cart path only when it was dormant?
It was NOT when I played it in the winter.
If so, that could get people wanting overseeded fairways.
My understanding is that it was the aesthetics that triggered the overseeding
Also if there was a video showing people how much yardage off the tee they are losing and ground game into the greens, do you think they would reconsider their decisions?
It's too late now, but, I think that makes for a very good argument.
Also with lower spinning balls and stronger lofts in fairway woods, do you think that might contribute to people(avg golfer) wanting the ball teed up more (rye)? A 7 wood now, is a 5 wood loft 20 years ago.
I think that's become one of the arguments for overseeding.
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There are several disadvantages to playing on completely dormant grass:
1. The light brown color is visually jarring. I have a hard time seeing the golf course.
2. I find greens get goofy - you have to read how worn a green is and how wet it is.
3. Wet surfaces are very difficult
4. Divots
I am not sure where in Florda courses go completely dormant. South of that line I would never overseed. North of that line, my choice would depend on what my customers prefer.
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Don,
I wasn't aware that I wasn't permitted to refine a thread ;D
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A number of private courses in Phoenix have been leaving the roughs dormant for at least three to four years so it wouldn't surprise me if Phoenix CC is doing it as well. It saves a lot of water and allows carts off the paths which means less cranky golfers. I wish that we could follow the Sandhills area lead on this but green grass rules in AZ unfortunately.
Desert Mountain is "resting" a course each year. Apache is brown this year and it plays great. Outlaw is wall-to-wall green. I think the members prefer it over seeded now. The surface ends up playing like "green" Bermuda once you get past the soft and sticky stage through about Thanksgiving.
We-ko-pa had the proverbial timing issue on Cholla this year. A storm washed out the seed on the greens right after it was put down. The greens play well but there isn't much grass on them.
What's happened with the USGA experiments to dye grass? Paradise Valley dyes their greens after having bad overseed problems and the members love it. They do it over three Monday's in the fall with little disruption to play.
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Our course has decided to stop overseeding. We are in Southern California, with a mix of clay and a
soil that compacts like crushed asphalt, really not sure what it is sorry.
On our South course, the second and third holes for example, have areas where most golfers hit approaches from.
Right now, in mid January, I am laying up 20 yards shorter on #3 to avoid the mess that the 100 yard area is. All the
divots are combining to create a Hell's Half Backyard at 100 yards from the green. With no growth from the dormant,
if we get one more heavy rain, we can do a mud run. #2 has a similar area that selfishly, I am happy I can fly with my tee shots.
Personally, our club's business plan would favor no over seed. Less water, less down time. But as a private club, there is
a trade off in conditions. Our crappy soil stays muddy under the dormant with any rain (or irrigation..different story).
I wish we had better draining or sandy soil, our supt would have a much better opportunity to deal with all of this
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I think I disagree with the idea that overseeded rye is in ANY way a preferable playing surface to dormant bermuda, with the possible exception of when things get really, really soggy and the issue of divots not filling in. Rye is sticky, often thin, and just not a great surface in general. It might help dry the course a little when things get really wet, but it just isn't worth it.
I know that it is heresy, and spare me any pontifications, please, but the divots issue is very simple. We adopt a rule in the points game at my club here in GA sometime after the bermuda is completely dormant that you can roll the ball in your own fairway. It's no different than a lift clean and place rule anyway, and we do the same thing anyway year-round when the super imposes a "cart path only" rule due to a wet golf course. It's very simple to go back to playing the ball down as soon as the bermuda comes out a little in the spring, so we're really only talking about a 3 to 4 month period of preferred lies anyway.
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I played Harmony Golf Preserve here in FL (southeast of Orlando) yesterday, which was overseeded pretty much wall-to-wall. The fairways were relatively lightly overseeded and were nicely firm. The overseeded greens, however, were incongruously soft (though they putted okay). Isn't a very light and restrained overseed a good solution? Do most courses either go all the way or not at all?
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Tim,
In regards to lightly overseeding, the basic gist is that a lot of plants occupying a given area will mature less quickly than if there are less plants. So the problem with lightly overseeding is the plants get bigger and stronger, making them compete more with the bermudagrass.
I don't have so much problem w/ overseeding as I do with the fertility/ irrigation of it. Ryegrass doesn't need as much as it generally gets, but that's also true for other permanent turfs.
Joe