Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture Discussion Group => Topic started by: Mike_Young on January 14, 2015, 10:32:06 PM
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For many of you that have worked in Latin America you understand the wheeling and dealing that goes on with everything you do. It seems this Latin America Amateur Championship is no different. This is supposed to be a big deal. Billy Payne, Mike Davis, R&A all represented since the winner will go to Masters etc. Being familiar with the Central America region I know that many of the professional champions of those countries could not win our club championship. What is interesting today is to see where some of the professionals were playing for money a few months ago and today are in the Latin America Am Championship....some things will never change....just make a call to your local governing body and get that am status in a few hours if the country needs you... ;D ;D
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Mike
In the Sr Am 2006 at Victoria the medalist from the Alaska qualifier sported a bucket hat, madras shorts; wingtip footjoys and I believe carded somewhere in the 120 range for his first bracketing round.
Im just saying you don't need a passport for Alaska
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The guy from the University of Minnesota golf team, Jose Mendez, is a heck of a player. I will be interested to see how he does.
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Mike
Just growing the game :)
John
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John,
All in favor of growing the game....but it's sort of like the Jamaican Bobsled team....there are a few very good players but so many countries just don't have it....not their fault but it's the reason golf will not remain in the Olympics....
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John,
All in favor of growing the game....but it's sort of like the Jamaican Bobsled team....there are a few very good players but so many countries just don't have it....not their fault but it's the reason golf will not remain in the Olympics....
Mike,
I kind of disagree with golf and the Olympics. Which of the major IOC countries does not have some interest in golf. I suspect far more do than don't.
Jon
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John,
All in favor of growing the game....but it's sort of like the Jamaican Bobsled team....there are a few very good players but so many countries just don't have it....not their fault but it's the reason golf will not remain in the Olympics....
Mike,
I kind of disagree with golf and the Olympics. Which of the major IOC countries does not have some interest in golf. I suspect far more do than don't.
Jon
Jon,
I'm sure plenty have an interest but their entry into the Olympics would not win a club championship in the US....JMO...and thus no interest in watching it unfold...
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Come on Mike. Btw I go off at 2:00 pm
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Come on Mike. Btw I go off at 2:00 pm
Don't laugh.....in some of those third world countries with no middle class, the golfers they will send to such events are used to choosing their score...I realize there are some very good golfers in Brazil, Argentina and some fo the other places but then there is....................
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John,
All in favor of growing the game....but it's sort of like the Jamaican Bobsled team....there are a few very good players but so many countries just don't have it....not their fault but it's the reason golf will not remain in the Olympics....
Disagree, golf will stay, no money in wrestling for example but in golf...there is money and more audience then wrestling.
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John,
All in favor of growing the game....but it's sort of like the Jamaican Bobsled team....there are a few very good players but so many countries just don't have it....not their fault but it's the reason golf will not remain in the Olympics....
Disagree, golf will stay, no money in wrestling for example but in golf...there is money and more audience then wrestling.
Randy,
But you being down there you know what I'm saying....look at the scores so far...Brazil, Mexico, Argentina etc are fine some but over 15% of the field is 10 over or more and have not finished the round....if golf stays and it could if money is factored in, there will not be huge crowds attending the golf event....JMO
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Mike--
There is a silver lining: this is your chance to be an Olympic athlete!
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Mike,
Well, maybe only a few hours in Latin America to become amateur after after competing for a few thousand dollars.
In the USA, even if you won, and won cash for over 10 years, and your country needs you for a Cup, it is a few thousand hours.
John
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Mike--
There is a silver lining: this is your chance to be an Olympic athlete!
I can't speak Spanish....but I'm pretty good with the spanglish... ;D
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Corruption being a part of the Olympics is as old as, well, The Olympic Games. So some country sends someone who cannot break 80. What's the difference in a country sponsoring a 100 meter sprinter who cannot break 11 seconds? You're still going to watch Johnson, Lewis, Bolt and the like.
I don't see the big deal.
Now if you want to publicly call out Mike Davis & Billy Payne for ignoring what is alleged at the LAAC then, well, OK.
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John,
All in favor of growing the game....but it's sort of like the Jamaican Bobsled team....there are a few very good players but so many countries just don't have it....not their fault but it's the reason golf will not remain in the Olympics....
Disagree, golf will stay, no money in wrestling for example but in golf...there is money and more audience then wrestling.
Randy,
But you being down there you know what I'm saying....look at the scores so far...Brazil, Mexico, Argentina etc are fine some but over 15% of the field is 10 over or more and have not finished the round....if golf stays and it could if money is factored in, there will not be huge crowds attending the golf event....JMO
Yes I understand your point. However, Mexico, Brazil, Argentina, Venezuela and Chile have good players and most of these countries are represented with players in the various tours around the wolrd. Venezuela has the best ameratures imo because most men don´t work there! There needs to be a qualifying to keep the weak out. I am sure some bugs will crop up and they will improve from the first to the second.
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Corruption being a part of the Olympics is as old as, well, The Olympic Games. So some country sends someone who cannot break 80. What's the difference in a country sponsoring a 100 meter sprinter who cannot break 11 seconds? You're still going to watch Johnson, Lewis, Bolt and the like.
I don't see the big deal.
Now if you want to publicly call out Mike Davis & Billy Payne for ignoring what is alleged at the LAAC then, well, OK.
;D ;D
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Next year's LAAC is at Teeth of the Dog.
http://www.laacgolf.com/casa-de-campo-dominican-republic-selected-as-hosts-for-2016-latin-america-amateur-championship/ (http://www.laacgolf.com/casa-de-campo-dominican-republic-selected-as-hosts-for-2016-latin-america-amateur-championship/)
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The leader after three rounds is ranked around 490th am in the world....and he will play in Masters
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first world problems
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Mike,
Your comments are so wrong. In general, golf in Argentina is played a lot more honestly and respecting the Rules of Golf and Etiquette than in the US. Golf is a wonderful bridge between the US and Europe and Latin America and gives us a common language and ethics. The LAAC is a wonderful initiative and I congratulate Payne et al for doing a lot more than diplomacy lately to bring countries together.
I attended the inauguration and it was a pleasure to see the ANGC members, USGA officials and R&A officials interacting with players. Your ranking comment is irrelevant when you are dealing with players that do not have the means to play tournaments awarding ranking points. So what if some players score badly. There might be fine tuning at the individual federation level in the selection process.
And so what if the Haiti player had to be given a new set of clubs because his were non conforming since they were so old. You are missing the whole point about the LAAC. I applaud the tournament for having at least 2 players from each country.
The Argentine Golf Association is a world class organization and has a rich tradition of organizing great tournaments and sending greT amateur teams to compete successfully worldwide. Argentine pros have in general been great sportsmen and gentlemen, even when coming from really humble homes and without formal education. This is a reflection of the etiquette in Argentine golf. I could say the same for most LA countries.
I would go on and on but have limited Internet access these days. If you have a specific name of a player violating the amateur status, you should send specific proof and name to the tournament officials.
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MClutterbuck,
I am very familiar with Latin American golf. No where did I say Argentine golf was the issue. Yes, the tourney is a nice gesture but I will not change my mind about the ranking and entry into the Masters. Payne is commercializing the Masters in anyway he can and that's is his choice as chair. The LA Championship would have a different meaning if there was a qualifying and European players and Americans could qualify like they do for the US Am or US Open. Perhaps we should promote American football in Latin America and let the best quarterback play in the Superbowl. Forgive me but I am so tired with the "grow the game" hype and BS. As for LA golf associations, I have seen many of the smaller countries that have associations made up of arrogant upper class punks who act as though they are "golf" in their countries. They all wear "Doral" shirts and spout rules they know nothing about. I even had one rate a course higher from the white tees than the blue tees and he tried to explain to me how he was a "professional R&A rules person and rater. So , don't give me the line about how much more honest and rules adhering they are in LA...I've been watching it for 20 years.... Yes, Argentina and Brazil may be different but so many of the other countries are a long way away. I am all for solid growth but I will stick by my comments. This tourney is like a little league team making sure everyone gets a trophy...growing golf in a country starts at the bottom not the top...Cheers...
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What you describe is not the norm in most of South America. Golf is taken very seriously and honorably. Your implication that it is as corrupt as public office is dead wrong. You are implying the typical official wears Doral shirts and knows nothing about golf is dead wrong. I attended the LAAC opening ceremony and had a side discussion with 2 officials. One officiated at the last Open. The other had recently played Merion and Pine Valley. I have friend officials that are members at several of the top tier clubs in the US and the UK. You are generalizing stereotypes you might have encountered, something I do not doubt, but your comments taken as if they were the general state of golf in LatAm are offensive. Let me remind you, you might have not seen a more graceful runner up of a major than Angrl Cabrera.
In time you will see players like Alejandro Tosti, that might or not win today, performing really well at the Masters and go on to similar success than say a Matsuyama. With respect to playing ability, please look at the team and individual leaderboard of the last Eisenhower cup.
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Mike how do you think the rest if the world sees Basketball as an Olympic sport?
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Mike:
The Latin America Amateur will allow one guy into The Masters. I hope the one guy is as exciting a player as the kid from China was two years ago.
The Olympics are different. It's not like each country gets to send two teams ... there are only 60 players overall, no more than two per country. Going off last summer's list here were the five Latin players who would be included:
Angel Cabrera (Arg) - 25
Felipe Aguilar (Chile) - 40
Emiliano Grillo (Arg) - 41
Camilo Villegas (Colombia) - 50
Jhonattan Vegas (Venez) - 57
I don't know anything about Grillo, but the others are hardly poseurs. Villegas is probably as good a chance for an Olympic medal as any other Colombian ... wouldn't that be good for golf?
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Tom,
Of course anything can happen, Emiliano Grillo is still very young, but has the potential to be very, very good. I believe he might end up winning more on the PGA Tour than the rest in that list.
He is 23, on his third year on the European Tour, has several top 10s, a couple of second places and has reached a major tour at a much younger age than the typical Latin American.
M
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The leader after three rounds is ranked around 490th am in the world....and he will play in Masters
That should read, and he might play in the Masters. Everything Marcos has written is exactly my perception of the Southern cone market.
Mike, a lot of what you have stated maybe true for the central america market but it just not fair to generalize and Assume that South America is the same as central america. I also doubt who ever wins this event will finish dead last in the Masters. I have been seeing some postive movements and actions coming from some of the Federations in South America and a shift being focused on growing the game. Some are even starting to get that growing the game comes from the bottom up. Argentina is a good example to follow because it is the only Country where the middle class has access to the sport.
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Mike,
I'm well aware of your extensive experience, but we are talking about more than an an entire continent here.
No doubt there could be some corruption involved, but I would think this could be a positive step to improving the process and organizations promoting the game in South America and Central America.
I'm pretty sure Angel Cabrerra could win a Club Champonship, and the very recently added Asian Amateur Championships have provided interesting/capable winners who have consistently played well in the Masters and at least one has gone onto the PGA tour.
The Masters has always had a history of amateurs, many of whom have no chance to win, and years ago as many as 10-15 in an event.
I for one would much rather watch the LAAC Champion or US Mid Am champion than the PGA professional who got in by being 50th on the money list without winning anything.
frankly I'd like to see them add the Senior Open Champion as well.
I've always looked at it as an exhibition for 10-15 % of the field(I love watching the older former champions) and a competition for the rest.
You know how I feel about all the misguided manufacturer driven "growing the game" crap
(in fact I wrote a letter to the organizers of Drive, Chip, Putt effectively accusing them of using their "random selection" for first round competitor selection as a very misguided/misleading/unfair way to ensure more minority representation--"random selection" is exactly the opposite of what an event should represent if they're trying to create real, skill based opportunities--something minorities know all too well)
They did away with that practice shortly after.
but I have a hard time faulting ANGC for supporting and creating golf opportunities in Latin America, or anywhere else.
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M Clutterbuck, Tom, Randy, Jeff,
I have the greatest respect for guys like Mario Gonzales, Angel Cabrerra, Ricardo Rossi , Villegas, Vegas etc. And yes, Randy, perhaps I am much more familiar with Central America and how it plays. Jeff, I'm with you on watching the amateurs at the Masters. I am not talking about the Brazilian Open, The Argentine Open or other established events in Latin America. I'm not saying there is that much corruption or making blanket statements. I'm not even saying there is anything wrong with the various groups supporting such a tournament. I'm saying why the Masters?? Does the Brazilian Open champion receive an invite or the Argentine Open?
In the US you can be from any country and if you live and play at a US club who is a member of the USGA and you have a USGA handicap then you can play in any of their championships. Do other countries allow the same?
There will be a day when the LAAC is a very competitive tourney just like the Asian-Pacific and other large continental tourneys but right now it just doesn't seem fair to guys on the World Amateur Ranking list that fall between say 20th and 450th.
Affirmative action has never work in competitive athletics. JMO
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M Clutterbuck, Tom, Randy, Jeff,
I have the greatest respect for guys like Mario Gonzales, Angel Cabrerra, Ricardo Rossi , Villegas, Vegas etc. And yes, Randy, perhaps I am much more familiar with Central America and how it plays. Jeff, I'm with you on watching the amateurs at the Masters. I am not talking about the Brazilian Open, The Argentine Open or other established events in Latin America. I'm not saying there is that much corruption or making blanket statements. I'm not even saying there is anything wrong with the various groups supporting such a tournament. I'm saying why the Masters?? Does the Brazilian Open champion receive an invite or the Argentine Open?
In the US you can be from any country and if you live and play at a US club who is a member of the USGA and you have a USGA handicap then you can play in any of their championships. Do other countries allow the same?
There will be a day when the LAAC is a very competitive tourney just like the Asian-Pacific and other large continental tourneys but right now it just doesn't seem fair to guys on the World Amateur Ranking list that fall between say 20th and 450th.
Affirmative action has never work in competitive athletics. JMO
aah but Mike,
I'm more interested in seeing the LAAC Champion then I am the 21st ranked amateur in the world, the same as I'm more interested in the Mid am champ or Ben Censhaw than the 51st ranked PGA money list guy.
The Masters has NEVER had the strongest field, it's an invitational.
They're simply adding a spot in the smallish field (unlike other majors where that would come at the expense of another) so in this case "affirmative action" isn't coming at the expense of someone else, as it could in other events and walks of life,
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Mike,
I'm well aware of your extensive experience, but we are talking about more than an an entire continent here.
No doubt there could be some corruption involved, but I would think this could be a positive step to improving the process and organizations promoting the game in South America and Central America.
I'm pretty sure Angel Cabrerra could win a Club Champonship, and the very recently added Asian Amateur Championships have provided interesting/capable winners who have consistently played well in the Masters and at least one has gone onto the PGA tour.
The Masters has always had a history of amateurs, many of whom have no chance to win, and years ago as many as 10-15 in an event.
I for one would much rather watch the LAAC Champion or US Mid Am champion than the PGA professional who got in by being 50th on the money list without winning anything.
frankly I'd like to see them add the Senior Open Champion as well.
I've always looked at it as an exhibition for 10-15 % of the field(I love watching the older former champions) and a competition for the rest.
You know how I feel about all the misguided manufacturer driven "growing the game" crap
(in fact I wrote a letter to the organizers of Drive, Chip, Putt effectively accusing them of using their "random selection" for first round competitor selection as a very misguided/misleading/unfair way to ensure more minority representation--"random selection" is exactly the opposite of what an event should represent if they're trying to create real, skill based opportunities--something minorities know all too well)
They did away with that practice shortly after.
but I have a hard time faulting ANGC for supporting and creating golf opportunities in Latin America, or anywhere else.
I agree with this 100%...ANGC clearly feel that growing the, game is more important than including some high ranked player in the world whom has perhaps only ever won one event.
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Some affirmative action or regional selection occurs in every world wide sports competition. Arguably the U.S. might have not played a football World Cup without "unfair" regional quotas. based on merit and ranking South America should receive many more invites and some regions less. But world representation makes it more interesting and allows for development world wide.
Having said this, you have clarified your initial statement and are arguing more reasonably debated subjects than your initial thoughts. Sufficient for me.
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And the winner is;
Matias Domínguez from: CHILE!
Oh, from the same Country that is gonna win the upcoming, America´s Cup!!
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A well deserved win for Matias Dominguez. Best of luck for the Masters and Amateur Championships. Alejandro Tosti the runner up will have other chances.
More interesting to this Discussion Group, after launching the Championship in Argentina, deservedly I believe due to history and commitment to the game of golf, as well as a well run Argentina Golf Association, the Championship moves on to Teeth of the Dog. I have never been there but I hear good things about the course.
The opening venue, Pilar Golf Club in my opinion is not a top 10 course in Argentina. Its modern, spacious club house and plently of additional space won it the nomination. What courses would be great for this event in the future?
I can see several courses in Cabo, Punta Espada in the Dominican, the Rio Olympic course being strong candidates. Any other you would like to see and have good sized facilities for such an event?
M
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M Clutterbuck, Tom, Randy, Jeff,
I have the greatest respect for guys like Mario Gonzales, Angel Cabrerra, Ricardo Rossi , Villegas, Vegas etc. And yes, Randy, perhaps I am much more familiar with Central America and how it plays. Jeff, I'm with you on watching the amateurs at the Masters. I am not talking about the Brazilian Open, The Argentine Open or other established events in Latin America. I'm not saying there is that much corruption or making blanket statements. I'm not even saying there is anything wrong with the various groups supporting such a tournament. I'm saying why the Masters?? Does the Brazilian Open champion receive an invite or the Argentine Open?
In the US you can be from any country and if you live and play at a US club who is a member of the USGA and you have a USGA handicap then you can play in any of their championships. Do other countries allow the same?
There will be a day when the LAAC is a very competitive tourney just like the Asian-Pacific and other large continental tourneys but right now it just doesn't seem fair to guys on the World Amateur Ranking list that fall between say 20th and 450th.
Affirmative action has never work in competitive athletics. JMO
aah but Mike,
I'm more interested in seeing the LAAC Champion then I am the 21st ranked amateur in the world, the same as I'm more interested in the Mid am champ or Ben Censhaw than the 51st ranked PGA money list guy.
The Masters has NEVER had the strongest field, it's an invitational.
They're simply adding a spot in the smallish field (unlike other majors where that would come at the expense of another) so in this case "affirmative action" isn't coming at the expense of someone else, as it could in other events and walks of life,
100% agree with you, Jeff.
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M Clutterbuck, Tom, Randy, Jeff,
I have the greatest respect for guys like Mario Gonzales, Angel Cabrerra, Ricardo Rossi , Villegas, Vegas etc. And yes, Randy, perhaps I am much more familiar with Central America and how it plays. Jeff, I'm with you on watching the amateurs at the Masters. I am not talking about the Brazilian Open, The Argentine Open or other established events in Latin America. I'm not saying there is that much corruption or making blanket statements. I'm not even saying there is anything wrong with the various groups supporting such a tournament. I'm saying why the Masters?? Does the Brazilian Open champion receive an invite or the Argentine Open?
In the US you can be from any country and if you live and play at a US club who is a member of the USGA and you have a USGA handicap then you can play in any of their championships. Do other countries allow the same?
There will be a day when the LAAC is a very competitive tourney just like the Asian-Pacific and other large continental tourneys but right now it just doesn't seem fair to guys on the World Amateur Ranking list that fall between say 20th and 450th.
Affirmative action has never work in competitive athletics. JMO
aah but Mike,
I'm more interested in seeing the LAAC Champion then I am the 21st ranked amateur in the world, the same as I'm more interested in the Mid am champ or Ben Censhaw than the 51st ranked PGA money list guy.
The Masters has NEVER had the strongest field, it's an invitational.
They're simply adding a spot in the smallish field (unlike other majors where that would come at the expense of another) so in this case "affirmative action" isn't coming at the expense of someone else, as it could in other events and walks of life,
Jeff,
No problem we just disagree. It's sort of like the entire First Tee deal for me....I don't see it helping grow the game one bit...hell they even had to force ESPN to broadcast it by telling them to do it if they wanted the Masters during Masters Week...might see you later this week...
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Mike your assumption around USGA events doesn't appear to add up. Take 2014 the US Amateur had 42 non-US participants. The Amateur Championship (the R&A one) had 186 overseas players tee up on day one, surprisingly only 12 US players entered. The British version goes on world rankings where as the US version relies mainly on qualifiers thus making entry prohibitively expensive for overseas players not in the world top 50.
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A well deserved win for Matias Dominguez. Best of luck for the Masters and Amateur Championships. Alejandro Tosti the runner up will have other chances.
More interesting to this Discussion Group, after launching the Championship in Argentina, deservedly I believe due to history and commitment to the game of golf, as well as a well run Argentina Golf Association, the Championship moves on to Teeth of the Dog. I have never been there but I hear good things about the course.
The opening venue, Pilar Golf Club in my opinion is not a top 10 course in Argentina. Its modern, spacious club house and plently of additional space won it the nomination. What courses would be great for this event in the future?
I can see several courses in Cabo, Punta Espada in the Dominican, the Rio Olympic course being strong candidates. Any other you would like to see and have good sized facilities for such an event?
M
Marcos,
There are a lot of options for future events. Not sure if Casa de Campo for the next event is the best option. I understand the importance of rotation but I worry about the cost when we start considering áreas like Los Cabos y Casa de Campo. I wonder how many of this year participants would have been able to play if it had been in Los Cabos or Casa de Campo. for example.
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Randy, as I understand it, The Masters picked up the full cost of the stay for all players and officials. I know for a fact they payed for all travel expenses for all 109 participants. I think it is important that the tournament is played on great venues, thus creating at least some interest in watching the event on TV.
My only criticism of the initial event is the venue chosen. There were probably 10 better options in and out of Buenos Aires.
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Masters also required ESPN to broadcast if they wanted the Masters on Thurs and Fri...
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Randy, as I understand it, The Masters picked up the full cost of the stay for all players and officials. I know for a fact they payed for all travel expenses for all 109 participants. I think it is important that the tournament is played on great venues, thus creating at least some interest in watching the event on TV.
My only criticism of the initial event is the venue chosen. There were probably 10 better options in and out of Buenos Aires.
Impressive, how was the selection made who gets invited to play?
Agreed there were a lot better places to have such an event. Hope they didn´t use the nine with the silly par 6. But, those things happen when you have a matress King enter into the golf design business!
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Randy, as I understand it, The Masters picked up the full cost of the stay for all players and officials. I know for a fact they payed for all travel expenses for all 109 participants. I think it is important that the tournament is played on great venues, thus creating at least some interest in watching the event on TV.
My only criticism of the initial event is the venue chosen. There were probably 10 better options in and out of Buenos Aires.
Impressive, how was the selection made who gets invited to play?
Agreed there were a lot better places to have such an event. Hope they didn´t use the nine with the silly par 6. But, those things happen when you have a matress King enter into the golf design business!
Randy, a minimum of 2 players per country qualilfied. Depending on ranking points and depth, countries were awarded more slots and the host country a few extra. Within each federation, some places were awarded according to world ranking points and others through qualifiers.