Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture Discussion Group => Topic started by: Phil Benedict on January 13, 2015, 07:14:39 PM
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I am leading the charge for a family golf trip with the intent of playing 'real links golf.' For reasons I won't get into traveling to Scotland or Ireland isn't in the cards, so I have focused on Bandon. We all live East of the Mississippi so logistics for Bandon are a pain. Someone who has played both Bandon and Streamsong suggested the latter as an alternative to Bandon. My impression is that Streamsong is great but doesn't really doesn't provide the experience of links golf, whereas Bandon comes pretty close.
I suppose Cabot is an alternative but I think it's too new.
Any guidance would be appreciated.
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Bandon is the purest golf experience, in my opinion. Links golf, 4 top 100 courses on the same property, ocean air, and the vibe of the place is perfect. It will become the gold standard for every place you visit. You won't regret it.
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Phil, I would say that the Blue at Streamsong plays a lot like a links course around the greens. I used my putter from everywhere very similarly to what I did at RCD. I haven't played the Red or Brandon.
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Bandon is indeed pure links, Streamsong is not even close, even the turf is completely different.
Bandon will be unforgettable. Make the pilgrimage. Fly into Portland or Eugene drive down. I'd consider moving back to Oregon (from Europe) if I could become a member there with unlimited play on the 4 courses and just live in Bandon till death do us part. It's that good. In fact, it's better than that.
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Bandon is indeed pure links, Streamsong is not even close, even the turf is completely different.
Bandon will be unforgettable. Make the pilgrimage. Fly into Portland or Eugene drive down. I'd consider moving back to Oregon (from Europe) if I could become a member there with unlimited play on the 4 courses and just live in Bandon till death do us part. It's that good. In fact, it's better than that.
David said it better than I could have. Bandon is an experience that you will never forget.
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If you're after a links golf experience, there is nothing even close to Bandon (other than on Long Island, which presents the issue of access).
Course-style aside, Bandon is just generally superior. There is a rumor of a Hanse course at Streamsong, and a possible reproduction of the Lido there as well. If/when those things happen, it will be a horse race that might be decided based on travel convenience. Until then...
Suck it up and deal with the pain to get there. Once you walk out the back door of the clubhouse, your pain will be a distant memory.
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Just got back from streamsong, really enjoyed it, two great tracks.
However, nothing compares to bandon. Go to bandon! It's worth every hassle.
To give you an idea I have streamsong red at #19 and streamsong blue at #29 in my personal rankings.
I have 3 bandon courses in my top 6 and old Mac at #17.
Streamsong is great fun but but bandon is a different level of amazing.
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I am leading the charge for a family golf trip with the intent of playing 'real links golf.' For reasons I won't get into traveling to Scotland or Ireland isn't in the cards, so I have focused on Bandon. We all live East of the Mississippi so logistics for Bandon are a pain. Someone who has played both Bandon and Streamsong suggested the latter as an alternative to Bandon. My impression is that Streamsong is great but doesn't really doesn't provide the experience of links golf, whereas Bandon comes pretty close.
I suppose Cabot is an alternative but I think it's too new.
Any guidance would be appreciated.
The original course, Cabot Links, looks, feels and plays like it's been there for years. I suspect Cabot Cliffs will take a bit longer as a number of holes are up into the wooded area. Rod Whitman's course is worth a trip itself, especially when you'll be able to play both Highland Links and Cabot Cliffs during the same trip this summer.
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"Family" is the word that really jumps out to me. Whole family golfing? You escaping for a round or two? Nothing to do or see other than golf when you're at Streamsong.
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To clarify by 'family' I mean older siblings and grownup children. We don't need diversions aside from food and a stiff Martini.
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I've been to both Bandon (three times) and Streamsong (once). Streamsong is very nice. Bandon is glorious. There are very few places on earth like Bandon and I cannot imagine you regretting going there.
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If you are talking about all adult men (or accomplished women golfers), the time of year works for the weather, the transportation can be worked out, and it is after July 1 when Cabot Cliffs officially opens, go to Cabot. It's an experience unlike any other. You won't regret it.
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I would love to go to Bandon one day but I have reconciled myself to the fact that barring a major lottery win it just isn't going to happen. I could spend three months playing 50 of the world's top links courses for the same money as a week in Bandon without having to travel more than a couple of hours from home.
I guess Streamsong and Cabot are more realistic destinations from this side of the pond but do they offer anything worth the effort and expense that we can't get at home? Have any of the British contingent on here been to these places?
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I've been to none of these places so you should really ignore my response.... But from all the reading / looking I've done and as a full time links golfer, the Cabot / Highland combo is the one that interests me most, followed closely by Bandon and then Streamsong a distant third. That's not to say Cabot plays more like a GB&I links than Bandon. Just like the look of the place.
Like Duncan, I've always wondered if they really play like a British links. I'm sure they are very close. Need to find out sometime.
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I've been lucky enough to visit all three. All are wonderful places. I think you have to separate Streamsong from the others, it is a very different sort of experience. Rusty and his crew do a remarkable job - the turf there is genuinely firm and bouncy - but in the final analysis it is bermuda, and links golf is played on cool season grass.
So for me the choice is Bandon or Cabot, and I have to say that it's always Cabot that I personally think of returning to. Partially it's about the golf - Rod's course really appeals to me, and when Cliffs opens in the summer I truly believe we'll see something very special indeed (and you can also play Highlands Links, which while not a links, is in my opinion one of the greatest walks in golf and one of my favourite courses). Partially it's about the destination - I loved Cape Breton with its mix of French and Scottish cultures, the great traditional music and the beauty of the area. And partly it's about the resort. Great place though Bandon is, I found it to have a slightly corporate feel, I guess a bit inevitable given the scale of the place now. Cabot, by contrast, I think because Ben and Allie play such an important role in day to day management, felt more like a family operation, more like a club almost.
Please don't think I am dissing Bandon, it is phenomenal. But Cabot is nicer for my personal tastes.
Duncan/Ally - Bandon is a long, long way to travel for a European for sure. I went because I was already on the west coast and could work in a visit without too much hassle, although delays on the flight back from North Bend to San Francisco did very nearly result in me missing my transatlantic flight home. Cabot isn't too bad though - there's a direct Air Canada flight from Heathrow to Halifax every day, and it's the shortest transatlantic crossing in existence, often below five hours coming home. True, it's a fair drive from Halifax, but imo if you go there you must do Highlands and drive the Cabot Trail, so to an extent the drive is negated. Streamsong, though, could easily get a lot of UK/Euro business. There are, after all, tons of Brits in Orlando on holiday -- and playing golf -- every winter, and it's only an hour and a half to Streamsong from the airport. You can easily do it from Orlando as a day trip.
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Adam
What is he windshield time from Halifax to Cabot?
Ciao
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It's about three hours. Googlemaps says three and a half, but I've done it in three both times.
Halifax to Highlands is further, about five hours, and the last hour or so is over Smokey Mountain, not ideal if it's getting dark, which is likely given when the Heathrow flight lands. From Cabot to Highlands via the Cabot Trail is two and a half hours plus photo stops, of which there will be plenty (it might be more in summer if the road is clogged with RVs).
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Streamsong is on my bucket list ...
have been to Bandon, agreed, an uniquely interesting and one of a kind experience.
Depending on your and family's age ..... I caution you a bit about Bandon, the weather can be rough, walking any of the courses is a challenge. If you physically can't walk 36 a day while being comfortable, the experience will be diminished as you will be worn out. Personal experience is that fatigue is a big factor at Bandon.
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Phil,
Bandon is the best golf resort on the planet in my experience. It is hardcore links golf with top courses all in one location that doesn't involve a passport, jetlag, driving, haggis and warm beer. It's all golf, all the time. If you're looking to do something besides golf, eat, drink, sleep and maybe fit in a massage- go elsewhere. It also is much more reasonable in the the fall/winter/spring and has less wind. It can be VERY windy in the summer. I want to see Cabot and Streamsong too, but they are the copycats. Bandon invented the type and will not be beaten easily anytime soon. 3 of the top 10 modern courses on Golfweek are at Bandon and Bandon Trails is underrated IMO at #22 (they also have a pretty cool par 3 course and putting course). nuff said. Book it...
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Trails is my favorite at Bandon... super underrated. Its #2 on my personal list behind Turnberry.
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I haven't been to Cabot though hope to do so soon. If it's Bandon vs. Streamsong there is no question--for the golf and the experience, there is no place like Bandon.
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Streamsong is on my bucket list ...
have been to Bandon, agreed, an uniquely interesting and one of a kind experience.
Depending on your and family's age ..... I caution you a bit about Bandon, the weather can be rough, walking any of the courses is a challenge. If you physically can't walk 36 a day while being comfortable, the experience will be diminished as you will be worn out. Personal experience is that fatigue is a big factor at Bandon.
I am the youngest of the first generation at 62. Walking 36 may be a stretch for some of us although I personally would be comfortable walking 27 holes. Is that feasible? Do the courses return to the clubhouse after 9 holes?
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Phil
Only on Bandon Dunes do both the 9th and 18th hole return to the clubhouse. That being said you can still create a short loops on the other courses (Trails may be the most difficult to do so). Also Bandon has the 13 hole par 3 course The Preserve and the Punchbowl putting course to provide you with more golf options other than walking another 18.
At Streamsong both 6th holes return to the clubhouse instead of the 9s. Streamsong offers a both a 6 and 12 hole rate to take advantage of the uncommon routing.
All things being equal I would knock Bandon off my bucketlist 1st, however if it makes more sense for you to go to Streamsong you will not be disappointed.
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Phil:
Let me put it this way: if one had to chose the place worth returning to on a regular basis - say, once every year or two - no doubt it would be Bandon.
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In mid-winter conditions Streamsong provides a pretty fair approximation of links golf. The grass is relatively dormant and all shots are available. I have never found, however, that US attempts at recreating links golf come close to the real thing. There is a bounciness in the turf at the GB&I courses that I have not experienced on US courses. It is a very pleasant walking experience while the US courses feel more like walking on concrete.
Perhaps the courses at Bandon have developed this feel since when I visited quite a while ago (there were three courses at the time). Perhaps not.
I suspect you could experience the real thing for the same cost as you would spend to get to Bandon or Streamsong as long as you avoided the big name courses and played some of the wonderful options that cost dramatically less money.
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Phil:
Let me put it this way: if one had to chose the place worth returning to on a regular basis - say, once every year or two - no doubt it would be Bandon.
I totally agree with this sentiment. I'm headed to Bandon this May for my sixth trip in ten years. Each experience is better than the prior trips.
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I concur. Just returned from my annual January week at Bandon. Although I can be a little nostalgic for the one course/one building 1999 vibe, the "resort" (a misnomer; it's "a golf place") is plainly one of the best places in the world to enjoy this great game. And the best place in North America.
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Phil,
You really can't go wrong with either choice, but, as Jim Hoak indicated, the time of year may be the deciding factor.
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I would say Cape Breton and side with Adam. Cabot is spectacular and Highlands Links equally beyond words.
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Quite frankly (no pun intended), I would say Cape Breton and side with Adam. Cabot is spectacular and Highlands Links equally beyond words.
I've been to Bandon once and early (only Bandon and Pacific). Having said that, I have no inclination of returning unless I get there in very specific circumstances — happen to be in the area and sometime in the off-season catching decent weather. I'm trying to think of a way to put this gently, but I just don't see golf being about $250+ rounds, which are realistically more when you factor in lodging and possibly caddies. Are they great courses? Indeed. Some of the best in the world? Absolutely. But I'm satisfied with my one and done situation there. I just don't care to hang around a bunch of jetsetters zipping across the country -— I can just stay at work for that.
I have not played Streamsong as of yet so I will not comment there.
Having been fortunate enough to head over to Ireland/U.K. in the past, there are just so many great links experiences for literally a 4th of the cost. I'm talking courses that are about tradition, culture, community, etc....just the full on experience. I'd take a round at a Northwest Ireland links any day over either of Bandon or Streamsong. Like I said, the courses I played (Bandon/Pacific) are definitely great courses, but they aren't the whole shebang. Actually, I think the Northwest of Ireland is maybe THE best value golf vacation in the world.
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If it were just me I would choose Scotland as the destination. My sense is that it's unsurpassed as far as authenicity, while Bandon will likely be a bit corporate. But so is Pinehurst and I loved it there. It's a whole day even if you only play 18. Have some lunch; hit some balls; work on your short game. I am thinking Bandon offers a similar ambiance for people who enjoy hanging around a golf course all day.
My tentative game plan is to assemble the group at some airport hotel in Portland; drive to Bandon the next morning; play 18 in the afternoon; spend 3 nights there; finish with a morning round on day 5 and head back to Portland for the return. So we get 5 days of golf out of 3 nights at Bandon. Most of us have some sort of hotel rewards so lodging at the airport will cost next to nothing.
It's still expensive but for those of us who are only doing this sort of thing once it seems like the nearest to true links golf in Noth America. Cabot will still be there for those who want more links golf down the road.
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Actually, I think the Northwest of Ireland is maybe THE best value golf vacation in the world.
Frank,
To quote Patrick Reed "SHHHHHHHHHHHHH"
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Catch the connecting flight to North Bend. It'll save you 4 hours each way. Plane ticket- $250; an extra round at Old Mac? Priceless...once you factor in replay rates vs. a single round, rental car and gas, it's a no-brainer...
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I fully agree about the specialness, and the value, of NW Ireland. It's also a marvelous gateway to Northern Ireland; Ballyliffin is less than two hours from Portrush. But those dissing Bandon for its costs, jet-setters, weather or remoteness simply haven't done it right, or are contradicting themselves, at least as regards weather and remoteness as Nova Scotia and old Scotia (Scotland) are remarkably similar in those respects (depending, of course, on where you're coming from and your affinity for Goretex). The last three January visits I've made to Bandon I've never paid a green fee more than $75 nor lodging more than $120/nt. As for the weather, 21+ rounds (the+ for The Preserve, Sheep Ranch and, now, PunchBowl) saw one round with a smattering of foggy drizzle (Bandon haar), two holes of rain (remember, in 21 rounds) and at least 8 or 9 rounds with temps 60 or better. Lastly, if the thought that the guy who just bought you a Guiness might have arrived via his own jet is offensive to you, then simply head a few miles into town for as much genuine folk as you'll find anywhere.
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Catch the connecting flight to North Bend. It'll save you 4 hours each way. Plane ticket- $250; an extra round at Old Mac? Priceless...once you factor in replay rates vs. a single round, rental car and gas, it's a no-brainer...
...unless your flight in or out of North Bend is cancelled, which can happen pretty often due to weather it seems. I actually like the drive from PDX to Bandon--the part from Drain to Reedsport along the Umpqua River is spectacular, one of my favorite drives in the USA.
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Catch the connecting flight to North Bend. It'll save you 4 hours each way. Plane ticket- $250; an extra round at Old Mac? Priceless...once you factor in replay rates vs. a single round, rental car and gas, it's a no-brainer...
...unless your flight in or out of North Bend is cancelled, which can happen pretty often due to weather it seems. I actually like the drive from PDX to Bandon--the part from Drain to Reedsport along the Umpqua River is spectacular, one of my favorite drives in the USA.
Yeah, this should be considered. Anecdotes are not evidence, but I turned up at North Bend for my flight back to SFO (where I was connecting to a Heathrow flight) to be told 'You're going to have a bit of a wait. The previous flight just left and the same plane is coming back for you". Conscious that it was a route prone to delays, I'd left four hours between my intended arrival time and the departure of the onward leg, but I only just made it. The American guys on the same flight all got on the phone as soon as they heard about the delay and started rebooking their onward connections; they all seemed used to it. My impression is that route gets a lot of delays.
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Catch the connecting flight to North Bend. It'll save you 4 hours each way. Plane ticket- $250; an extra round at Old Mac? Priceless...once you factor in replay rates vs. a single round, rental car and gas, it's a no-brainer...
...unless your flight in or out of North Bend is cancelled, which can happen pretty often due to weather it seems. I actually like the drive from PDX to Bandon--the part from Drain to Reedsport along the Umpqua River is spectacular, one of my favorite drives in the USA.
Yeah, this should be considered. Anecdotes are not evidence, but I turned up at North Bend for my flight back to SFO (where I was connecting to a Heathrow flight) to be told 'You're going to have a bit of a wait. The previous flight just left and the same plane is coming back for you". Conscious that it was a route prone to delays, I'd left four hours between my intended arrival time and the departure of the onward leg, but I only just made it. The American guys on the same flight all got on the phone as soon as they heard about the delay and started rebooking their onward connections; they all seemed used to it. My impression is that route gets a lot of delays.
For this reason, I have gone through Eugene the last few times I have been. You get the beautiful drive and less delays (still some delays though). Plus, it is usually a good bit cheaper, however once you factor in car rental, it isn't much cheaper.
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Not so useful if you're trying to get back to the UK though!
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Not so useful if you're trying to get back to the UK though!
EUG-SFO-LHR ....depart EUG around 3 or 4 pm and be in favorite London pub the next afternoon for several pints
Bandon is not a replica of the links courses in or anything in the UK, it's just Bandon, and the architecture speaks for itself despite it's youthfulness
I've played in shorts at least once in every month of the year, but have also worn rain pants at least once every month of the year, LOL
the best months to schedule optimum golf is Sept. thru early Nov....usually light wind and dry weather....
plan for the worst and hope for the best
8)
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I've been to Bandon twice and Streamsong once. There's something special about being at Bandon. Playing in the cooler temps right next to the ocean on a great variety of courses is about as good as it gets. The courses at Streamsong themselves are both excellent but for some reason Streamsong doesn't quite capture the feeling of golf that Bandon seems to deliver. Hard to describe but for me I guess it's an intangible.
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I've been at Streamsong the last two days, and I'm pretty happy here. There are an awful lot of really good golf holes on one property.
Obviously, Bandon is special, but why just compare Streamsong to Bandon? If you threw Pinehurst, Doral and Sea Island into the discussion, it might rate a bit higher.
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Bandon is pretty special, plus I think there are plenty of things to do if you have a car. Drive up to Cape Arago for an experience you'll never forget - whales and a large variety of seals/sea lions. Drive south toward Gold Beach and take a jet boat up the Rogue.
What's really neat is that Bandon now has live HD webcams: http://www.bandondunesgolf.com/course-cameras
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yes, the cameras do get your golf heart rate up, no doubt
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There are some practical factors. Since you are in the east you can fly to Streamsong in the morning and play that day which is far more strenuous going to Bandon. There's no carts in Bandon so a second 18 can be tough on older players. Bandon is the best but there are those shortcomings.
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Bandon was not in good condition recently.
One has to wonder if funds are an issue.
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Bandon was not in good condition recently.
One has to wonder if funds are an issue.
LOL
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Jerry,
United Airlines and Alaska Airlines both offer one connection flights JFK-EUG arrive before 1:00 pm the 1st of September....getting you to Bandon by 4:00 in a car and with Sunset around 8:00 pm, you are good to go, except for the jet lag
or
JFK or EWR-PDX non-stop in the evening getting in around 8:00 pm, stay overnight then use jet lag and start driving at 4:00 am to get your 8:00 am tee time
;D
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Jerry,
United Airlines and Alaska Airlines both offer one connection flights JFK-EUG arrive before 1:00 pm the 1st of September....getting you to Bandon by 4:00 in a car and with Sunset around 8:00 pm, you are good to go, except for the jet lag
or
JFK or EWR-PDX non-stop in the evening getting in around 8:00 pm, stay overnight then use jet lag and start driving at 4:00 am to get your 8:00 am tee time
;D
Eugene may be problematical for people coming from other parts of the country (Cincinnati and Minneapolis). Driving from Portland in the morning and playing in the afternoon is most likely the best option for our group.
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thanks for asking anyway Phil...yes Cincinnati in and of itself presents connection problems on the return from EUG, Minneapolis not as much
it is always interesting looking at airline routes in airline magazines as it is so heavy where all the population is in the east and light in the west where there isn't anybody
look forward to hearing how it all goes, let me know if you need anything as I live in Eugene
have fun
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Bandon was not in good condition recently.
One has to wonder if funds are an issue.
LOL
William,
Are you aware of the budget currently devoted to each course ?
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Bandon was not in good condition recently.
One has to wonder if funds are an issue.
LOL
William,
Are you aware of the budget currently devoted to each course ?
hahaha
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Bandon was not in good condition recently.
One has to wonder if funds are an issue.
Pat:
You're better than that. You're also normally more specific.
Suffice it to say, I don't think the sample size from your last visit warrants the first comment, and the second is pure unwarranted speculation.
Sven
PS - Timing is everything.
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc435/snilsen7/ScreenShot2015-01-19at102135PM_zps647e817d.png)
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A heads-up about summer winds in Bandon - as noted earlier, they can be VERY strong. I remember having to wear sunglasses (which I never do) because my eyes were drying out in the wind. That said, playing a 6 iron into a 120 yard green is pretty darn cool!
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From what I heard on Morning Drive today, Streamsong probably has their sights set on being the premier resort. Gil Hanse is doing a third course, the "Black" and what I read from it is that he was able to choose from about 800 available acres and will likely be on a little over 200 acres. Sounds like plenty of room for at least one more course...
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And don't forget (as mentioned earlier) about Nova Scotia (Cabot Links, Cabot Cliffs, and Highlands Links). Great courses*, great people, and amazing scenery.
* - I know that Cabot Cliffs isn't open yet, but it's on the way :)
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So which Hanse course opens first? Bandon Links or Streamsong Black?