Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture Discussion Group => Topic started by: Ronald Montesano on December 25, 2014, 08:39:09 PM
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PPS to Ron: I have always made a list of courses first, and then limited myself to only using one course per architect. I'm not trying to highlight architects, so much as to not play favorites. My list of candidate courses for North & South America includes the work of 61 different architects (!) so it would be silly to let a few dominate the list.
This is good to note. I'm going to add it to my concurrent thread. Thank you, Tom. Good luck in the paring process.
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A quick bounce to thesaurus.com reveals "epicurean" to be arguably synonymous with "gourmet." "Election" more or less corresponds with "choice." Therefore, so as to not commit outright and convictable larceny of the term "Gourmet's Choice," we'll go with Epicurean Election. We shall use the original Confidential Guide rules of one course per architect. Let us determine the 31 Baskin-Robbins architects. I've listed eleven classic and eleven contemporary (more or less) as common ground. The remaining 9 are up to you. After each architect, list your Epicurean Election for favorite golf course by that architect. Here is the list. Copy/paste it into your thread entry.
Keep Tom Doak's words {see above} in mind.
1 -- Donald J. Ross
2 -- Alister MacKenzie
3 -- Harry Colt
4 -- CB McDonald
5 -- AW Tillinghast
6 -- Old Tom Morris
7 -- Perry Maxwell
8 -- Walter J. Travis
9 -- Seth Raynor
10 -- Charles Alison
11 -- Stanley Thompson
12 --
13 --
14 --
15 --
16 --
17 --
18 --
19 --
20 --
21 -- Gil Hanse
22 -- Mike Hurdzan/Dana Fry
23 -- Jack Nicklaus
24 -- Pete Dye
25 -- David Kidd
26 -- Bill Coore/Ben Crenshaw
27 -- Tom Doak/Renaissance Golf
28 -- Robert Trent Jones I
29 -- Robert Trent Jones II
30 -- Rees Jones
31 -- Tom Fazio
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Off the top of my head--James Braid, William Fowler, and Jeff Brauer.
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Dick Wilson?
Arnold Palmer?
Greg Norman?
William Flynn?
Jim Engh?
Willie Park Jr?
Rod Whitman?
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Devereaux Emmet
Charles Banks
Lester George
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Another vote for James Braid and/or Dick Wilson
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Is this supposed to be just USA? It has to be except for the odd OTM reference.
Emmet
Joe Lee (given who else you have, he fits)
Wm Watson
Bell
Langford & Moreau
Wilson
Flynn
Banks
Bendelow
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I don't think he wants us to decide which nine architects to add. Each one is to pick their choice of courses for the 22 GCAs listed, plus nine more architects of your own choice. He's not looking for a consensus on those nine.
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a few cuts/substitutions from Ron's list
For example I haven't played a RTJ Jr. I loved.
1 -- Donald J. Ross-Augusta CC-firstlove
2 -- Alister MacKenzie-ANGC-second love
3 -- Harry Colt-Aberdovey
4 -- CB McDonald-Sleepy Hollow
5 -- AW Tillinghast-SFGC
6 -- Old Tom Morris-Prestwick
7 -- Perry Maxwell-Old Town
8 -- Walter J. Travis-Cape Arundel
9 -- Seth Raynor-Yeaman's Hall
10 -- Charles Alison-Timber Point
11 -- Stanley Thompson-Highlands Links
12 --William Langford-Lawsonia
13 --Herbert Strong-Engineers
14 --Herbert Fowler-Eastward Ho
15 --James Braid-Pennard
16 --Herbert Leeds-Myopia
17 --Eddie Hackett-Waterville
18 --Mike Young-The Fields
19 --Willie Park-Maidstone
20 --Tom Simpson- Carlow
21 -- Gil Hanse-Boston Golf Club
22 -- Mike Hurdzan/Dana Fry-Erin Hills
23 -- Jack Nicklaus-Melrose
24 -- Pete Dye-Long Cove
25 -- George Thomas-Riviera
26 -- Bill Coore/Ben Crenshaw-Friar's Head
27 -- Tom Doak/Renaissance Golf-Renaissance Club
28 -- Robert Trent Jones -Carombola
29 -- Devereaux Emmett-Glen Head
30 -- Rees Jones-Three Ponds Farm
31 -- Tom Fazio-World Woods PB
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Off the top of my head--James Braid, William Fowler, and Jeff Brauer.
The remaining 9 are up to you.
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Dick Wilson?
Arnold Palmer?
Greg Norman?
William Flynn?
Jim Engh?
Willie Park Jr?
Rod Whitman?
The remaining 9 are up to you.
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Another vote for James Braid and/or Dick Wilson
The remaining 9 are up to you.
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Is this supposed to be just USA? It has to be except for the odd OTM reference.
Emmet
Joe Lee (given who else you have, he fits)
Wm Watson
Bell
Langford & Moreau
Wilson
Flynn
Banks
Bendelow
The remaining 9 are up to you.
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I don't think he wants us to decide which nine architects to add. Each one is to pick their choice of courses for the 22 GCAs listed, plus nine more architects of your own choice. He's not looking for a consensus on those nine.
The remaining 9 are up to ... oh, wait, Pete YOU GOT IT!!!
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a few cuts/substitutions from Ron's list
For example I haven't played a RTJ Jr. I loved.
Disclaimer-haven't played Wolf Pointe or Pac Dunes but by all accounts they qualify as Gourmet's Choices. ;)
1 -- Donald J. Ross-Augusta CC-firstlove
2 -- Alister MacKenzie-ANGC-second love
3 -- Harry Colt-Aberdovey
4 -- CB McDonald-Sleepy Hollow
5 -- AW Tillinghast-SFGC
6 -- Old Tom Morris-Prestwick
7 -- Perry Maxwell-Old Town
8 -- Walter J. Travis-Cape Arundel
9 -- Seth Raynor-Yeaman's Hall
10 -- Charles Alison-Timber Point
11 -- Stanley Thompson-Highlands Links
12 --William Langford-Lawsonia
13 --Herbert Strong-Engineers
14 --Herbert Fowler-Eastward Ho
15 --James Braid-Pennard
16 --Herbert Leeds-Myopia
17 --Eddie Hackett-Waterville
18 --Mike Young-The Fields
19 --Mike Nuzzo-Wolf Point
20 --Kelly Blake Moran-Laurel Links
21 -- Gil Hanse-Boston Golf Club
22 -- Mike Hurdzan/Dana Fry-Calusa Pines
23 -- Jack Nicklaus-Melrose
24 -- Pete Dye-Long Cove
25 -- George Thomas-Riviera
26 -- Bill Coore/Ben Crenshaw-Friar's Head
27 -- Tom Doak/Renaissance Golf-Pacific Dunes
28 -- Robert Trent Jones -Carombola
29 -- Devereaux Emmett-Glen Head
30 -- Rees Jones-Haig Point
31 -- Tom Fazio-World Woods PB
CBM - Sleepy Hollow over CGC or SLCC ?
Fazio - WW over Forest Creek N or Shadow Creek?
KBM - Laurel Links over The Hideout?
Raynor- Yeamans over Camargo or Shoreacres?
Maxwell- Old Town over Prairie Dunes and Crystal Downs?
Mckenzie - ANGC over CPC or Pasa?
Ross- Augusta over Wannamoissette or Plainfield ?
Interesting choices - curious why you chose yours over the ones I've listed?
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I have some voids but figured I'd give my list.
1 -- Donald J. Ross - York Golf and Tennis Club (I'll start with the course I learned to play the game)
2 -- Alister MacKenzie - Pasatiempo
3 -- Harry Colt - Royal Hague
4 -- CB MacDonald - The Greenbrier - Old White Course
5 -- AW Tillinghast - Have not played one
6 -- Old Tom Morris - Royal Dornoch
7 -- Perry Maxwell - Have not played one
8 -- Walter J. Travis - East Potomac Park (only Travis I have played and don't think much of it is Travis anymore)
9 -- Seth Raynor - Monterey Peninsula Country Club
10 -- Charles Alison - Not sure I've played a course primarily by Alison (want to play Kawana in 2015)
11 -- Stanley Thompson - Have not played one
12 -- William Flynn - The Homestead
13 -- George Thomas - Ojai Valley Inn
14 -- James Braid - Pennard (my toughest choice because I have really enjoyed every Braid course I've played)
15 -- William P. Bell - Torrey Pines
16 -- Ellis Maples - Pinehurst #5
17 -- Arthur Hills - Half Moon Bay
18 -- Gene Bates - Circling Raven
19 -- Jim Engh - Redlands Mesa
20 -- Lee Schmidt/Brian Curley - Terra Lago
21 -- Gil Hanse - Rustic Canyon
22 -- Mike Hurdzan/Dana Fry - Have not played one
23 -- Jack Nicklaus - Machynys Peninsula Golf Club (on my month long trip to the UK this is the only course I wouldn't revisit)
24 -- Pete Dye - PGA West Stadium
25 -- David Kidd - Bandon Dunes
26 -- Bill Coore/Ben Crenshaw - Dormie
27 -- Tom Doak/Renaissance Golf - Pacific Dunes
28 -- Robert Trent Jones I - Eisenhower Golf Club Blue (I've played more rounds on this course than any other)
29 -- Robert Trent Jones II - Prince Golf Course
30 -- Rees Jones - Golden Horseshoe (don't think I've played a Rees only course)
31 -- Tom Fazio - The Cliffs at Keowee Vineyards
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I'm going to restrict this to ones that I've played, so I'll have to sub out a few architects that i put in.
1 -- Donald J. Ross Country Club of Buffalo
2 -- William Harries Sheridan Park
3 -- Herbert Leeds Kebo Valley
4 -- CB McDonald Yale
5 -- AW Tillinghast Bethpage Black
6 -- Old Tom Morris St. Andrews Old Course
7 -- Perry Maxwell Old Town Club
8 -- Walter J. Travis Country Club of Troy
9 -- Seth Raynor Fox Chapel
10 -- Charles Alison Park Country Club
11 -- Stanley Thompson Whirlpool Golf Course
12 -- Stiles/Van Kleek Taconic
13 -- Herbert Fowler Eastward Ho!
14 -- Devereux Emmett Leatherstocking
15 -- Hugh Wilson Merion East
16 -- Arthur Hills Bay Harbor
17 -- Scott Witter Arrowhead
18 -- Architect Unknown Indian Spring (Indiana, PA VFW)
19 -- Desmond Muirhead River Oaks
20 -- Lester George Ballyhack
21 -- Mike Strantz Tobacco Road
22 -- Mike Hurdzan/Dana Fry Cooks Creek
23 -- Ron Garl Victoria Hills
24 -- Pete Dye Blackwolf Run Meadows Valley (and I played all four at the resort!!)
25 -- David Kidd Bandon Dunes
26 -- Bill Coore/Ben Crenshaw Bandon Trails
27 -- Tom Doak/Renaissance Golf Pacific Dunes
28 -- Robert Trent Jones I Golden Horseshoe Gold
29 -- Robert Trent Jones II Seneca Hickory Stick
30 -- Rees Jones Currituck Club
31 -- Tom Fazio Atunyote
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a few cuts/substitutions from Ron's list
For example I haven't played a RTJ Jr. I loved.
Disclaimer-haven't played Wolf Pointe or Pac Dunes but by all accounts they qualify as Gourmet's Choices. ;)
1 -- Donald J. Ross-Augusta CC-firstlove
2 -- Alister MacKenzie-ANGC-second love
3 -- Harry Colt-Aberdovey
4 -- CB McDonald-Sleepy Hollow
5 -- AW Tillinghast-SFGC
6 -- Old Tom Morris-Prestwick
7 -- Perry Maxwell-Old Town
8 -- Walter J. Travis-Cape Arundel
9 -- Seth Raynor-Yeaman's Hall
10 -- Charles Alison-Timber Point
11 -- Stanley Thompson-Highlands Links
12 --William Langford-Lawsonia
13 --Herbert Strong-Engineers
14 --Herbert Fowler-Eastward Ho
15 --James Braid-Pennard
16 --Herbert Leeds-Myopia
17 --Eddie Hackett-Waterville
18 --Mike Young-The Fields
19 --Mike Nuzzo-Wolf Point
20 --Kelly Blake Moran-Laurel Links
21 -- Gil Hanse-Boston Golf Club
22 -- Mike Hurdzan/Dana Fry-Calusa Pines
23 -- Jack Nicklaus-Melrose
24 -- Pete Dye-Long Cove
25 -- George Thomas-Riviera
26 -- Bill Coore/Ben Crenshaw-Friar's Head
27 -- Tom Doak/Renaissance Golf-Pacific Dunes
28 -- Robert Trent Jones -Carombola
29 -- Devereaux Emmett-Glen Head
30 -- Rees Jones-Haig Point
31 -- Tom Fazio-World Woods PB
CBM - Sleepy Hollow over CGC or SLCC ? not played others-loved Sleepy
Fazio - WW over Forest Creek N or Shadow Creek?not played others nor do I seek Fazio stuff out on purpose
KBM - Laurel Links over The Hideout?not played other
Raynor- Yeamans over Camargo or Shoreacres?not played others-loved Yeamans haven't heard glowing reviews of CGC, but have of Shoreacres
Maxwell- Old Town over Prairie Dunes and Crystal Downs?not played others-I think many would associate CD with Mackenzie
Mckenzie - ANGC over CPC or Pasa?Augusta homer
Ross- Augusta over Wannamoissette or Plainfield ?see notes Augusta homer-lots of great choices for Ross
Interesting choices - curious why you chose yours over the ones I've listed?
Main reason?
It's my list? ;) ;D
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1 -- Donald J. Ross
2 -- Alister MacKenzie
3 -- Harry Colt
4 -- CB McDonald
5 -- AW Tillinghast
6 -- Old Tom Morris
7 -- Perry Maxwell
8 -- Walter J. Travis
9 -- Seth Raynor
10 -- Charles Alison
11 -- Stanley Thompson
21 -- Gil Hanse
22 -- Mike Hurdzan/Dana Fry
23 -- Jack Nicklaus
24 -- Pete Dye
25 -- David Kidd
26 -- Bill Coore/Ben Crenshaw
27 -- Tom Doak/Renaissance Golf
28 -- Robert Trent Jones I
29 -- Robert Trent Jones II
30 -- Rees Jones
31 -- Tom Fazio
Ron, a point of curiosity. Why do you list Doak as "Tom Doak/Renaisance Golf", and not simply Tom Doak?
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Jeff- fair enough- your list is your list. Looks like you should explore the Midwest- some pretty solid Raynor, CBM, Maxwell work to see. It's not Long Island but still really good IMO
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Jeff- fair enough- your list is your list. Looks like you should explore the Midwest- some pretty solid Raynor, CBM, Maxwell work to see. It's not Long Island but still really good IMO
CBM
why not NGLA?
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Jeff- fair enough- your list is your list. Looks like you should explore the Midwest- some pretty solid Raynor, CBM, Maxwell work to see. It's not Long Island but still really good IMO
CBM
why not NGLA?
I agree - NGLA is certainly CBMs best - due in large part to it being a much better piece of property than Chicago Golf which is flattish . I believe the greens at Chicago are better than those at NGLA. SLCC is a good piece of property but the course isn't in the same league as NGLA IMO .
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David Brown, Open Champion 1886 - once of Musselburgh, at the time of Malvern, later of the USA. - who laid out the original 9-holes at one of the most spoken about courses on GCA.................Painswick. :)
atb
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A list of this sort is bound to be filled with either numerous mysterious choices or at the other end of the spectrum, obvious choices because so few people (by few I mean the number can likely be counted on one hand) have played a sound representative splattering of 31 prominent archies.
Sorry to go off topic Ronald, but I thought since the new version of the CG splits the world into regions, so too will the Gormet's Choice (I can only presume). When I think of the GB&I selection from the original 31 Flavours and the addition of the new Gourmet's Choice I think of perhaps the best selection of courses one could possibly hope to recommend in GB&I.
Addington (Aber)
Askernish (OTM)
Ballybunion (T Simpson)
Brancaster
County Down (Coombe/Colt)
Dornoch (Sutherland)
Lahinch (Dr Mac)
North Berwick
Notts (Park Jr)
Painswick (Brown)
Pennard (Braid)
Prestwick (OTM)
Pulborough (3 Colonels)
Rye
TOC
St Enodoc (Braid)
St Georges Hill (Colt)
Sacred 9 (Dunn/Colt)
Sandwich
Swinley Forest (Colt)
Walton Heath (Fowler)
Westward Ho! (Fowler)
Woodhall Spa (Hotchkin)
Looking at the 23 courses (A combined list) there is not a single course Doak & Co have failed to convince me to play. Sure, there is the odd course which I think may have been ignored, but as a list of 23 trying to represent a broad spectrum of archies, its nigh on impossible to grumble. What strikes me most about the 23 courses is the heavy representation of England. I wonder if Ran led this charge as he seems to be a hige fan of Englsih golf. Finally, it would seem that when talking about GB&I golf, one cannot rattle off too many courses until the name Colt appears.
Sorry to have gine off topic Ronald, but i thought
Anyway, for those of you who are travelling to GB&I, save this list.
Ciao
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Compared to some of the new chaps rather odd omissions are;
Willie Park Jnr who designed Sunningdale Old, Maidstone and Olympia Fields.
JF Abercromby The Addington, Worplesdon, Knole Park, Hilversum and Liphook.
Herbert Fowler Saunton, Walton Heath and The Berkshire
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The other challenge is attributing an architect to a course. Some courses were built by a team, some by an associate and courses that have been around for some length of time are bound to have changes.
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To quote Vonnegut quoting Trout, "Wake Up, for God's Sake! Wake up! Wake up! Free will!, Free will!"
The hope (now dashed) for this thread was to simply reveal one's epicurean election, not to debate in fear the choices of others.
Jim Nugent, I guess I felt that Tom might feel denied if he didn't have a forward-slash like Coore and Crenshaw often do, so I gave him one. Other than that, a random act of typing, I suppose.
By now, I would have thought that someone would have argued my association of OTM, rather than GOD, as the architect of TOC (accidents come in threes). I was incorrect.
Sean A, you should always think. You need not apologize.
Mark C., The remaining 9 are up to you.
And as you've seen me and that award-winning teaching fellow suggest, the other 22 are also up for a massage or two.
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I'm afraid most British golfers don't know who designed their own course let alone anywhere else.
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I'm afraid most British golfers don't know who designed their own course let alone anywhere else.
My mum's kept me in the dark about a few things, too! Happy holidays, Mark.
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Compared to some of the new chaps rather odd omissions are;
Willie Park Jnr who designed Sunningdale Old, Maidstone and Olympia Fields.
JF Abercromby The Addington, Worplesdon, Knole Park, Hilversum and Liphook.
Herbert Fowler Saunton, Walton Heath and The Berkshire
There goes another modern signature ;) ;D
Maidstone/Park definitely belong on my list
and now Jud T below reminds me I've missed Simpson ::)
I must say I initially thought I could never get to 31 different architects of courses I've played (perhaps I'm part British Mark), but a few posting have reminded me that's not a problem. Finding 31 I love by different archies that I would recommend over nearby others? maybe
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1 -- Donald J. Ross- Pinehurst #2
2 -- Alister MacKenzie- Crystal Downs
3 -- Harry Colt- Old Elm
4 -- CB McDonald- Chicago Golf
5 -- AW Tillinghast- Winged Foot West
6 -- Old Tom Morris- Prestwick
7 -- Perry Maxwell- University of Michigan?
8 -- Walter J. Travis- Round Hill
9 -- Seth Raynor- Shoreacres
10 -- Charles Alison- Briarwood
11 -- Stanley Thompson- N/A
12 -- William Langford- Lawsonia
13 -- Tom Simpson- Baltray
14 -- George Ross- Portmarnock
15 -- Mike Devries- Kingsley
16 -- David Esler- Black Sheep
17 -- George Thomas- Riviera
18 -- Willie Park- Olympia Fields North
19 -- Davis Love III- Diamante
20 -- Charles Banks- Tamarack CC
21 -- Gil Hanse- Rustic Canyon
22 -- Mike Hurdzan/Dana Fry- Erin Hills
23 -- Jack Nicklaus- Grand Cypress New
24 -- Pete Dye- Big Fish
25 -- David Kidd- Bandon Dunes
26 -- Bill Coore/Ben Crenshaw- Bandon Trails
27 -- Tom Doak/Renaissance Golf- Old Mac
28 -- Robert Trent Jones I- Spyglass
29 -- Robert Trent Jones II- Thunderhawk
30 -- Rees Jones- Torrey?
31 -- Tom Fazio- TPC Myrtle
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Posted by Tom today on original thread:
PPS to Ron: I have always made a list of courses first, and then limited myself to only using one course per architect. I'm not trying to highlight architects, so much as to not play favorites. My list of candidate courses for North & South America includes the work of 61 different architects (!) so it would be silly to let a few dominate the list.
This is good to note. I'm going to add it to my concurrent thread. Thank you, Tom. Good luck in the paring process.
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1. Donald Ross Charlotte CC
2. Alister Mackenzie Crystal Downs
3. Harry Colt No courses played
4. CB MacDonald Sleepy Hollow
5. AW Tillinghast Bethpage Black
6. Old Tom Morris No courses played - The Old Course someday
7. Perry Maxwell Crystal Downs
8. Walter Travis No courses played
9. Seth Raynor Yeaman's Hall
10. Charles Allison Kirtland CC
11. Stanley Thompson No courses played
12. Herber Fowler Eastward Ho!
13. George Thomas Riviera CC
14. Jim Engh True North
15. Greg Norman River Club
16. Rick Smith/Warren Henderson Arcadia Bluffs
17. Davis Love III/Paul Cowley Diamante Dunes
18. Tom Jackson Cliffs at Glassy
19. Tom Weiskof Forest Dunes
20. Arthur Hills Bay Harbor
21. Gil Hanse Rustic Canyon
22. Mike Hurdan/Dana Fry Lassing Pointe
23. Jack Nicklaus the original Eldorado
24. Pete Dye Whistling Straits - Straits course
25. David Kidd Bandon Dunes
26. Bill Coore/Ben Crenshaw Kapalua Plantation course
27. Tom Doak Pacific Dunes
28. Robert Trent Jones Sr. Robert Trent Jones Golf Club
29. Robert Trent Jones Jr. Sequoyah National
30. Rees Jones Black Lake
31. Tom Fazio Cliffs at Keowee Vineyards