Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture Discussion Group => Topic started by: Patrick_Mucci on August 29, 2003, 07:47:48 PM
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If you had absolute control, authority, money and permiting freedom, what five golf courses would you restore, and to what date.
A listing I would consider:
Hollywood (photo date)
Lido (completion date)
Yale (Bahto date)
GCGC 1936
Doral (completion date)
Hollywood, because it would represent an incredibly unique and demanding golf course
Lido, because if would represent a spectacular man made creation, hard by the sea, causing environmentalists to rethink the hard line.
Yale, because it might encourage more unique if not quirky designs in an area thin in strong golf courses
GCGC, because it was almost void of trees, shrubbery, underbrush, and appears to have been a ground intensive golf course, more strategic and more penal then the current version.
Doral, because too much of Wilson's limited amount of work has been lost.
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OK Pat - I'll bite on that one.
Yale- Use all the construction photos, the 1934 aerial, what remains in the ground of the former bunkers that Roger Rulewich has not destroyed, the great memory of an old member who recalls the green contours and put it back! I mean put it back as exactly as possible and not that pseudo-crap interpretation/compromise that's under way now.
Timber Point - The old photos look so unique and there is little of Alison's original work intact.
Split Rock - A wonderful NY City public course with great greens, cross bunkering and a neat routing that uses the natural features of the rolling property and wetlands. The NY City public golfers deserve it!
Riviera - What an amazing golf course. Too little of George Thomas' work is intact. Give Geoff Shakelford free reign.
Los Angeles North- see above and in addition those southern california yahoos (sorry Tommy, Lynn, David etc) deserve more intact courses to occasionally play when they take a change of pace from Rustic Canyon :)
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Thanks Geoff, I appreciate that! I'm sure the rest of the guys do too!
I'm going to keep this local here.
I just got back from playing very medicore golf on a flat wonderful little muni course I love to frequent here near Downey called Los Amigos, where they have hired this superintendent who is really doing some amazing things with nothing of a suitable budget, and where even his full on Spanish-speaking crew seems to be transformed in maintaining the course. There is a lot of work to be done there, so I nominate that one first, because it has some really fun character to it, plus Matt Ward would hate it because it isn't challenging off of the tee.
The others:
2-Griffith Park Wilson and Harding-Put Geoff in charge of restoring those as far as possible, and what a lovely tribute to the man who paid for them to be finished out of his own pocket--some fellow named George C. Thomas.
3-Sharp Park-As far as it can be restored.
4-Eastmoreland-Talk abotu a course that is a prime full restoration candidate!
5-Oakmont CC in Glendale, Ca.--Max Behr--millions of trees now, lots of information out there that just needs to be researched!
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I don't think you can count Lido because it's not on the same land anymore.
My five would be:
1. Timber Point
2. Bel Air
3. Cobb's Creek, though I don't know how good it was
4. Royal Cinque Ports, Deal, pre-Battle of Britain
5. Commonwealth
6. High Pointe!
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Tom,
I had the pleasure of playing High Point with Joe Hancock last summer. We both enjoyed the course and thought the design was very good, but the course conditions (very wet, lush and slow) detracted from the experience. Is High Point in need of a restoration, or some re-grassing and a change in management for the course to play as designed?
I agree with Bel Air
There's a course in Des Moines called Wakonda that I feel would be a wonderful course if the playing corridors were opened up as they once were. I have no idea of the date but the evidence of old fairway bunkers now grassed over and buried in the forrest of trees shows that the course once had some width.
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Metropolitan: the photos of the old holes reveal a course that was infinitely superior to the current model. The original back nine was taken over by the Victorian government in the 1960's for schooling. Would require those schools and dozens of houses to be torn down: which is never going to happen!
Yarra Yarra: tear down all the trees which detract from the design. On opening, it was said to resemble a windswept British Open course; wouldn't it be great to get that feeling back?
Augusta National: old photos and a look at a Masters film from the 60's reveal a course different in character to what we see today. You get the feeling that it was a better course when Mackenzie's hand was more obvious.
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Given Bill's addition of Shinnecock Hills which still today might be the best course on the planet, I'll add Quaker Ridge. If you look at the really old aerials in the clubhouse the course looked absolutely wild and seriously better then today.
If Gil Hanse and Co. did to QR what they did to Fenway it would be AMAZING!
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Yes Bill I do and you are in my dream foresome :-*
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My goodness a lovefest on GCA instead of a bar room brawl ;D
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-Myopia Hunt Club
-Eastward Ho!
-Quaker Ridge
-Yale
-Crystal Downs
-Indianwood (Old)
I think all of these golf courses are really solid but with a little restoration would be unbelievable. They really don't need a whole lot of work (with the exception of Yale).
I think they need:
-Fairway expansions (except for possibly Eastward Ho!)
-Tree removals
-Some bunker work to restore original characteristics or bring back abandoned bunkers
-Adding back some greens' features and/or size
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San Francisco- "Little Tillie and Old Bunkering could put the Course in the Spotlight.
Oak Hill-Greens on 5, 6 and 15 do not fit with an otherwise classic set of Ross greens.
Pine Valley- Could Alternate fairway at No. 17 be restored?
A few others: Bel-Air, LACC, La Cumbre, Lakeside, and No. 18 at Cypress Point.
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Geoffery and redanman - get a room.
My courses for restoration:
- Yale - No other course would benefit so much from so little attention. Keep it cheap, just restore the second and third holes next to the clubhouse and Yale moves much higher in the rankings.
- East Lake No. 2 - The course no longer exists (so disregard choice if you want), but older members still talk about it with great reverence. The better golfers preferred it. By all accounts it was the stronger of the two East Lake courses. There is little known about it today, but its reputation lives on, at least for a while.
- East Lake No. 1 - $25 million dollars later and it's not as good as the course I played in the 80's and that course wasn't as good as the Ross original, and that course wasn't as good as the other Ross course at East Lake (see above). Superb conditioning notwithstanding.
- Pinehurst No. 4 - A great, great piece of property wasted. There is a wonderful Ross course in there somewhere.
- Athens CC - A Ross course that, if restored a la Aronimink or Skokie, would be very special. As with Yale, it would take very little money to do the trick.
- ANGC - We have forgotten how radical/weird/even satirical MacKenzies' original design was. It was gca on acid. It mocked older architectural icons. Really wild stuff that I had not appreciated until the recent discovery of fairway level photos of the original green complexes. See the gound level photo of MacK's original no. 4 (Eden). Unbelievable.
Bob
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Bob
Bill and I are just friends :-[
Is there any way you could share those Augusta photos with us? That was a great call.
PS- you should see the newest work up at Yale. Its embarassing how bad it is. :'(
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I'll add Nassau to the list.
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My Dream Foursome:
Matt Ward
Pat Mucci
MDugger
I'd sell the rights and kick back and grab some popcorn! :o
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Happy Gilmore,
That might not be all that you grab ;D
Why did Philip Roth say that he was uncomfortable shaking hands with you ?
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Happy, think there are a few more than would want or not want in on that game/match.
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Tom Doak:
FYI
"Bid to spiff up Cobbs Creek
The Olde Course could be in for a face-lift, but there are still a few obstacles."
See link for details:
http://www.philly.com/mld/inquirer/sports/6656971.htm
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Commonwealth
Metropolitan
Yarra Yarra
Riviera
Pasatiempo
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Some holes at ANGC that should be restored:
2nd Hole had bunkering that gave the hole strategy (!).
6th Hole, with its original redan green.
7th Hole, with original Valley of Sin green.
9th Hole, with boomerang green more exciting than today's cookie cutter shaped green.
Original 10th green site.
12th Hole. If the pros have difficulty with this hole now, imagine what they would do on Mackenzie's Green!
The original fairway bunker on 14.
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Nice to see that on a really cool piece of land, the Greg Norman design group thinks a "restoration" of Cobbs Creek requires some "target bunkers".
Ewww... ::) :'(
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My Stanley Thompson Five:
1. Highland Golf Links, if you have seen all the old photos, you would realize how much better it could be.
(http://www3.sympatico.ca/iandrew/index.html/17hgl.jpg)
2. Cataraqui is all there waiting to be reclaimed. One of the best and easiest Thompson courses to recapture
(http://www3.sympatico.ca/iandrew/index.html/18c.jpg)
3. St George's; This is one of the four changed greens, all are well photographed and two are completely still intact.
(http://www3.sympatico.ca/iandrew/index.html/4sg.jpg)
4. Banff Springs back to the pre-Robinson, 18 holes, original routing, restoration of bunkers using the old photos.
5. The origional York Downs, designed by Alison, built by Thompson. The course still sits in the middle of an urban park with many mounds and greens complex's still there for all to see.
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I'll stay on the Canadian theme...
1. Shaughnessy, Vancouver (Macan)
*One of Macan's last golf course designs, and perhaps his very best. However, besides his routing, almost everything 'Macan' has been lost. The course occupies a gently rolling property along the bank of the Fraser River. The original design featured boldly contoured greens and a number of bunkers in the direct line to the hole. Shaughnessy will host the 2005 Canadian Open, but don't expect a 'restoration' of Macan's original design.
2. Banff, Alberta (Thompson)
*I agree with Ian. Banff is crying to be restored; particularly the original hole sequence, which was changed a decade or so ago, to the detriment of the 'Banff experience'.
3. Toronto Golf Club and Hamilton (tie) (Colt)
*Two of supposedly only a handful of North American golf courses Harry Colt was directly involved with laying out. And, two wonderful candidates for some sensitive restorative-based work.
4. Lakeview, Toronto (H. Strong)
*Located across the road from Toronto GC, Lakeview is a city-owned course these days. As a private club back in the 1930s, however, Lakeview hosted a few Canadian Opens, and it was once considered one of Canada's very best golf courses. Much has changed. There's not much 'Strong' left there today.
5. Highlands Links (Thompson)
*I have to agree with Ian, again. Look at the old photos of Highlands Links and it's clear the 'restoration' work on the course back in the mid 1990s was an opportunity lost. Canada's best golf courses could indeed be so much better!
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Montclair and Metropolis would be two courses worthy of restoration by removing and/or relocating the tennis courts that caused them to alter their respective golf courses in the first place.
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I found this 2003 thread while trolling around looking for Vernon Macan stuff. What say you all?
I'd pick Wellshire GC in Denver. Designed by Donald Ross in 2006, it's buried under many years of municipal neglect but the bones are there and with some $$ it easily could be restored a la Wilmington (NC) Municipal. Alas, unlikely to happen unless I win Powerball.
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Cool thread. Mine would be:
La Cumbre (completion date by GCT & BB)- What might've been Thomas' very best.
Bel Air (completion date of GCT & BB)- While not as "mighty" as LACC or Riviera, the holes that have been lost were some of Thomas best including the Mae West. Shame on Dick Wilson!
Sharp Park- Just thinking about what MacK might've done there makes for good day dreaming.
Lakeside-(pre flood) This Behr course was very highly thought of when completed. I would've love to have seen the course to match his words.
Timber Point-The photo's in Wexler's book just look awesome. It looked like it was a beast! The Gibraltar hole alone would've been worth seeing.
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- Pinehurst No. 4 - A great, great piece of property wasted. There is a wonderful Ross course in there somewhere.
Bob
The old course was much, much better than the new version. I used to love the old second par 3. It's a shame they destroyed that course. Just some better maintenance and more fairway around the greens and the old #4 would have been great.
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1. Crestwood Golf Club, Marcy NY...the owners have driven it into the ground.
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Sharp Park
The Eden (St. Andrews)
the old 9-hole Struie at Dornoch (1946-1985)
The Lido (bring it on, CBM!)
The Old Course (St. Andrews) c. 1840
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Rich: 50 lashes for me if this was in your book and I am just forgetting it, but why was TOC better in 1840 than it is now? Was that when it had 22 holes?
And about Sharp Park, it is a nice dream... but that enormous berm separating the course from the sea isn't going anywhere, nor should it really. That course floods too much WITH the berm... it boggles the mind to think what a swamp it would be without it.
TH
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All right, Huck--I'll substitute Stanford for Sharp Park. The former was probably miles better than the latter, at their peak, anyway.
As for TOC, c. 1840 it was effectively a 9-hole course and while the holes coming in were very much the same as they are now, the holes going out were vastly superior to the ones we know, which were created C. 1850. I was re-reading James Balfour's "Reminiscences of Golf on St. Andrews Links" today, and the thought of playing today's 3rd with the Pinciple's Nose complex in the middle of that fairway gave me wood.
To satisfy Patrick and/or avoid multicoloured bold admonitions.....
Eden--the remaing 11-12 Colt holes are so great, the other 6-7 can't be chopped liver.
NLE Struie--what a 9-hole beginning, fun, relief course should be.
Lido--I bet it would be a great disappointment, which is why I would love non-thinking Macdonaldophiles to waste their financial, intellectual and emotional capital on the resoration. But, if I were wrong, I would be both pleased and magnamimous......
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Boca Raton South: A design on flat ground (10 feet of elevation change) which used width, angles, deception and wind in a naturalistic design style that shows exactly how great golf can be provided for high handicappers and a nearly complete test of golf (except for elevation change demands) can be presented to the very best players.
Eagles Mere New Course: A design on terrain that made Augusta look flat. A fascinating example of how to design an appealing course on extremely demanding ground. The opposite of Boca Raton South. Gravity golf as rarely seen. Very few bunkers...very few needed.
Cherry Hills CC: While it is not a top-tier Flynn, nor should it be exactly restored, it fell so far from its potential that it needs a lot of work. Luckily it looks like it will happen sometime over the next few years.
Cobbs Creek: Marvelous ground for golf, terrific routing and a hole designs. The best golf course for public golfers in Philadelphia by a large margin.
Denver CC and CC of York: Wow, what designs and routings! If the Denver CC remodeling was only implemented in full it would surely have been the first club west of the Mighty Miss to have a US Open. If the CC of York plans were accepted, there would be a lot more interest in that great club's course. In both cases, I think the difficulty and innovative designs scared them off. That and the fact that Lancaster CC was already a Flynn in the case of CCY.
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Ponkapoag #1, Canton,Ma.-Cut down all 2 million trees, kick the state of Massachusetts out of the management and bring back this fabled Ross design.
Ponkapoag #2,Canton,Ma-Same as above but turn in into a Ross style, compatable with #1 above.
George Wright-Boston, Ma-Rebuild the bunkers and redo all the tee turf and viola-a Ross masterpiece.
Franklin Park,Boston-add about 60 bunkers, shag up the bunker faces, redo all the tee boxes and you will have a great classic course
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Rich - thanks for the info re TOC. Sounds good to me.
Good call re Stanford in theory, although you have some serious logistical problems there as well given the widening of Sand Hill Road. Have you been there in the last year or so? If not, you wouldn't recognize it. Can't see as that one can realistically be restored either. But dare to dream!
TH
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Cherry Hills CC: While it is not a top-tier Flynn, nor should it be exactly restored, it fell so far from its potential that it needs a lot of work. Luckily it looks like it will happen sometime over the next few years.
Denver CC... Wow, what designs and routings! If the Denver CC remodeling was only implemented in full it would surely have been the first club west of the Mighty Miss to have a US Open.
Wayne,
I thought quite a bit of work had already been done at Cherry Hills over the past few years. No?
Re Denver CC I hadn't thought it a candidate for "restoration" (the topic of this thread) since the club never built the Flynn course and hence can't "restore" it. I agree with you, however, that the Flynn 1920s design for DCC was first-rate, and I wish the club would look at using some of his concepts on what's there now. It would be impossible to duplicate the 1920s Flynn course now for several reasons, including the incursion of a road in front of the clubhouse that eliminated two holes from the Flynn design, the club acquired additional land to replace those holes, and a practice area was needed. Nice to think about though...
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1. Longaberger
2. Bay Harbor
3. Waverly Woods
4. Harbour Pointe-Not much of a redesign. I'd just demolish about 200 homes that line the fairways.
5. The Links at Lighthouse Sound
All these courses are on great pieces of land.
All could use a major re-do.
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Five restorations, Langford/Moreau edition:
-- Kankakee Elks (Illinois): A recent thread by GCA posters Dan Moore and Eric Terhorst suggests it's the most deplorably overtreed course in the Midwestern L/M canon. Cut the trees and restore the bunkering.
-- Culver Academies (Indiana): Only 9 of 27 holes built here; build another nine, restore the bunkering, and expand the greens lost over the years. See Ran's GCA profile.
-- Ozaukee CC, suburban Milwaukee: Very good early L/M marred by unnamed Chicago-area architects' (initials K and N) mounding that looks ugly and makes little sense. Some great old trees can be found on the course and should remain; the rest (anything 50 years old or newer) should be cut down. Truly, not much would need to be done here to fully restore it to close to its original intent (maybe some bunker work); just the will of the membership.
-- West Bend CC (Wisconsin): A terrific L/M nine over mostly teriffic property combined with what's described as an ordinary, 1960s-era nine over similar good terrain. The plans for 18 by L/M are there; might exceed Lawsonia as the prototypical L/M course, given what the front nine is like.
-- Spring Valley (Wisconsin): The original L/M plans are in the clubhouse, complete with bunkers. The course has none, and never had them. Add them, combined with an aggressive tree-cutting program, and you'd turn a very good L/M course into a terrific one. Some green expansion plans are already underway.
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I don't think you can count Lido because it's not on the same land anymore.
My five would be:
1. Timber Point
2. Bel Air
3. Cobb's Creek, though I don't know how good it was
4. Royal Cinque Ports, Deal, pre-Battle of Britain
5. Commonwealth
6. High Pointe!
Tom: Having spent alot of years at Bel-Air CC, and having It so near and dear to my heart. How would you restore Bel-Air? What major work would you do? What irks you about the "recent" changes?
And yes I do agree that it needs to be restored!
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Doug,
Of course you are right about Flynn's plans not being significantly implemented at Denver CC and impossible to reproduce at this stage. I was in fantasy mode and restoring/building according to Flynn's plan. I'm not knocking the course as it stands today, but Flynn's plans are really cool!
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- Yes, agreed tht Shark Park is out. Not possible. Course should just not be restored with what's left. Start over from scratch.
- Bel Air agreed too.
- Stanford as well.
- To continue with G.C. Thomas ... Ojai.
- ANGC the way it once was.
- Last but not least ... how about San Clemente Muni for the deprived SD crowd.
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Philadelphia Cricket Club is crying out for some restoration work. returning all of the cross bunkers and some tree clearing would really revitaize this course.
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- Yes, agreed tht Shark Park is out. Not possible. Course should just not be restored with what's left. Start over from scratch.
- Bel Air agreed too.
- Stanford as well.
- To continue with G.C. Thomas ... Ojai.
- ANGC the way it once was.
- Last but not least ... how about San Clemente Muni for the deprived SD crowd.
I was thinking Ojai as well, but with permanent structures now laying where some of the course used to be, impossible. And Carter Moorish screwed up any chance of the "lost holes" being faithfully restored.
San Clemente, now that would be interesting. Billy (Sr.) Bell's holes (the front nine) have little chance to be redone. With TN's help he helped me line up the routing from the '20's with Google Earth today. The first tee was where the driving range tee is now and the second green was in the middle of where the driving range lays now. The sixth's tee used to sit in the middle of a park that now exists to the left of the present tee. The rest is more or less doable.
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Course: Wellshire in Denver.
Why: Because it's in my backyard.
[Sorry Doug, I missed your post].
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if i thought about it longer, this list would probably different, but some thoughts:
Oakland Hills--not completely, but bring back the old scooped-out pits, chop trees, and get rid of the monotony created by RTJ
Augusta--self explanatory
Bethpage Black--widen those fairways
Pasatiempo--thin trees and bring back the unique "bleeding" bunkers
and as was mentioned 4 years ago, High Pointe--work the existing bunkers and eliminate the myriad thatch accumulation to get the ball bouncing and rolling again
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Haggin Oaks(Mac) and Del Paso in Sacramento.
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Haggin Oaks(Mac) and Del Paso in Sacramento.
Tim - interesting choices in that both have been "restored"... or at least "renovated"....
I take it you don't like how they came out?
;)
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Course: Wellshire in Denver.
Why: Because it's in my backyard.
[Sorry Doug, I missed your post].
Tim, great minds think alike...
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Stanford GC is my one wish in this regard. The original photos show an aesthetically superior course. Big Billy Bell Bunkers!
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Ponkapoag CG in Canton, MA. After restoration could hold a USGA event, maybe the Open.
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Yarra Yarra: tear down all the trees which detract from the design. On opening, it was said to resemble a windswept British Open course; wouldn't it be great to get that feeling back?
I think Mark G provided me with this old overhead of Yarra Yarra. It is inspirational. The 5th hole (which is featured in Doak's Anatomy of a Golf Course) can be seen just right of the clubhouse.
(http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e381/JamesBennett/yygc-aeriala.jpg)
James B
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Timber Point-The photo's in Wexler's book just look awesome. It looked like it was a beast! The Gibraltar hole alone would've been worth seeing.
The hole is still there and I believe is now part of the "Blue" 9.
Original plans hang on the wall in the bar.
$15 after 2pm
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I can only think of one.
I'd restore TOC to the way it was in about 1847 before Alan Robertson and even before man-made architecture.
Can you imagine in a future British Open Tiger Woods playing one of those old 50-60 yard wide hole corridors one way while Ernie Els played it in the opposite direction at the same time?
I mean, come on, how cool would that be?
A whole championship tournament field playing the same hole corridors in opposite directions for four days?? The prospect of that is just too much for words!
Can't you just see a guy like Sabattini yelling at Woods; "Hey Tiger, I got to the green at least a second and a half before you did so it's my turn to play."
I can't stand it, that would be so cool,
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Timber Point-The photo's in Wexler's book just look awesome. It looked like it was a beast! The Gibraltar hole alone would've been worth seeing.
The hole is still there and I believe is now part of the "Blue" 9.
Original plans hang on the wall in the bar.
$15 after 2pm
Wow, really Gene? I've got to get out and see that then.
$15. Gosh, I've got to get out of California! :o If the Gibraltar hole looks anything like the old photo then that alone makes the $15 worth while.
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I'd also restore Stone Harbor to just the way it was the day it opened. A golf course that crazy should never have been touched. The fact it was is a crying shame.
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I'd also restore Fernandina Beach Municipal but the fact is it doesn't need it because nothing has changed from the beginning, not even the maintenance practices.
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I'd restore TOC to the way it was in about 1847 before Alan Robertson and even before man-made architecture.
Or, going back further Tom, can you imagine Tiger teeing it up within one club length of the hole? Wow! :o
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How about St Andrews in Yonkers complete with the Apple Tree Gang.............That would've been interesting, America's first taste of golf.
Eastlake to when Bobby was a child.
The original Ocean course at Olympic, Willie Watson's masterpiece. I'm not sure if there was another arch whose very best course was lost.
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I have two:
The original Seaside nine [Colt and Allison] at the Sea Island Resort.
Pebble Beach Golf Links on the Monterey Peninsula.
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Pebble Beach Golf Links on the Monterey Peninsula.
Which one Paul, Neville and Grants or post Egan and Fowler?
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David...neither.
I would restore it to the way it was on November 16, 1972
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My earlier post on Bel Air was not based on any of the recent work, which I haven't seen. I'm just going on the basis of the original photos of the holes, several of which are nothing like their former selves now.
I think I also meant to say Prince's, instead of Royal Cinque Ports, in my original post ... because I've heard Prince's was terrific before it was destroyed in the war, and I think it's a shame they went to a "commercial" 27-hole routing instead. I don't know much about the changes at Deal over the years, other than the loss of "Sandy Parlor" which a lot of astute observers didn't like to begin with.
When I saw this thread again this morning, I had a much different take on it than four years ago. My thought was that the best candidates for restoration are older clubs that don't host championships, so their members would be happy with a course that plays like it did for the best players in the 1920's. And, we've been fortunate to DO restorations of this kind for a few of them:
1. Yeamans Hall
2. Camargo
3. The Valley Club of Montecito
4. Pasatiempo
5. San Francisco Golf Club
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Tom, would you call your work at YH a restore so much as a sympathetic remodel? In that regard, I think you ought to add North Shore in Menasha to your list. I think the work is spectacular.
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Course: Wellshire in Denver.
Why: Because it's in my backyard.
[Sorry Doug, I missed your post].
Tim, great minds think alike...
Indeed.
I played the back 9 of Wellshire this morning and the first thing I would do is address the pitiful state of the water hazards on #10 and #17--getting rid of them would be my first choice, but at least make them look presentable and more natural (in the case of #17). Deepening the bunkers would also do wonders.
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*Princes by Campbell/Morrison - Sandwich: Try to recreate a course more in keeping with the original because the original sounds like it was a cracker.
Ciao
Sean do you really mean the 1956 version or the original version?
In case you do, here’s a map that was in the recent centenary booklet. I understood it’s been changed for the better in the 70’s and recently. Look at the ‘Lido’ type hole at the centre of the bottom map, today the whole left hand side of that fairway is dense rough. I’ll have a good look next time I make it there.
(http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f174/Muldoon3/princes/p19562.jpg) (http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f174/Muldoon3/princes/p19561.jpg)
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I would like to bring back the second Raynor course at the Greenbrier. Photos of it are incredible. Maybe some of his best work.
Unfortunately, it was in the location of where both the Nicklaus and Cupp courses currently reside, hum.......
Lester
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How about the Adington New? Darwin thought it Abercromby's best and you'd only have to knock down some of those houses. Oh well.
(http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f174/Muldoon3/Addington/adddingtonnew.jpg)
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I would be interested in examining several of the courses at Bethpage State Park further to better understand their original design.
Specifically, I hope Phil reads this and shares his knowledge. The basis I have for comparison is an aerial dated 1935 in the clubhouse, and Bill Quirin's book "America's Linksland". In it, I have read about reports of both the Red and Blue courses being excellent tests of golf. Considering the great terrain, the state of the current Blue course, which, IMO is unexciting nor inspiring to play at best, four courses may have been better than five.
In addition, from the aerial, which I admit is limited in what it can convey, it appears there is more width in playing corridors, there are greater expanses of bunkers, and, more than likely, a greater use of angles in playing the course.
Further, the original Blue course (part of today's Yellow) was reportedly tougher than the Red. It also appears that the natural gully that runs through the Yellow first nine and several holes on today's Blue course was better utilized in the original routing.
On the Red course, for one example, it appears that the 13th hole featured the sandy waste area cutting into the fairway from the right; thus, there were two ways to play the hole; lay up short or go left over several bunkers for a better angle of approach.
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Unfortunately,can't think more than the Trinity(3): Yale(Full Restoration---Tees,Bunkers,Fairways with Firm Maintenance Commitment).Ekwanok('NEW' Back/Tee Installation 'Only'----This course is a 'Rembrandt').Kebo Valley(This tarnished 'Gem' is painfull visually when compared with the 30's/40's ,original, photographs.Twice(2x), one of Desert Island's/World's wealthiest families offered restoration funding;however, this was board denied, favoring the present,marginally maintained shell.This provincial attitude reinforces my family's decision departing N.England, (30)yrs ago, and returning to our Ohio roots.)
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Philadelphia Cricket (AWT)
I think Tillinghast's original was peppered with several bold bunkering clusters/echelons. While such a restoration may not garner national attention ,it might prove instructive to sme golden age clubs. It would certainly excite many Tilinghast fans
2. Canterbury
To ighlight Herbert Srongs imagtion/flair and his shaping artistry
3. Westchester CC Ken Dyes work does not seem sympathetic to Travis ; tree management is also needed
4. Blyhtefield, Culvr and Wkonda (Langford& moreau)
5. Plum Holow and Orchard Lake
two Alson designs on lovely land
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Course: Wellshire in Denver.
Why: Because it's in my backyard.
[Sorry Doug, I missed your post].
Tim, great minds think alike...
Indeed.
I played the back 9 of Wellshire this morning and the first thing I would do is address the pitiful state of the water hazards on #10 and #17--getting rid of them would be my first choice, but at least make them look presentable and more natural (in the case of #17). Deepening the bunkers would also do wonders.
yeah, in what universe does #10 make any sense as a golf hole. I think the best way to play it is drive down #1 fairway.
What don't you like about the water on #17?
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1. Longaberger
2. Bay Harbor
3. Waverly Woods
4. Harbour Pointe-Not much of a redesign. I'd just demolish about 200 homes that line the fairways.
5. The Links at Lighthouse Sound
All these courses are on great pieces of land.
All could use a major re-do.
Is Art Hills a relative of yours by any chance?
A thread on courses that should be redone, rather than restored, could take up all the bandwidth of this site.
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Course: Wellshire in Denver.
Why: Because it's in my backyard.
[Sorry Doug, I missed your post].
Tim, great minds think alike...
Indeed.
I played the back 9 of Wellshire this morning and the first thing I would do is address the pitiful state of the water hazards on #10 and #17--getting rid of them would be my first choice, but at least make them look presentable and more natural (in the case of #17). Deepening the bunkers would also do wonders.
yeah, in what universe does #10 make any sense as a golf hole. I think the best way to play it is drive down #1 fairway.
What don't you like about the water on #17?
Tim/Alex,
#10 suffers from seepage from the adjacent reservoir so the "pond" isn't likely to go away; agree that it's an eyesore and results in a terrible hole. I concur with Tim that the "water feature" on 17 is bad--a totally contrived and ugly series of "cement ponds" (if you recall the Beverly Hillbillies). They should have used the $$ to do some basic work on the course instead.
Wellshire could easily be like Wilmington Municipal, a Ross restoration by Ron Prichard (see link to GCA course description below, and note in particular the restored bunkering). I have somewhere the Ross plans for Wellshire, and there are many great fairway bunkers that NLE (think, for example, one cut into the hillside on the right of #7 fairway). That plus some deepening/cleanup of the existing greenside bunkering and substantial tree removal would create a really fine municipal course. Not likely, unfortunately.
http://www.golfclubatlas.com/wilmington1.html
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Hazeltine. June 1970. Wild, fierce and capable of making professionals whine.
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Philadelphia Cricket (AWT)
I think Tillinghast's original was peppered with several bold bunkering clusters/echelons. While such a restoration may not garner national attention ,it might prove instructive to sme golden age clubs. It would certainly excite many Tilinghast fans
Mark,
Some of the old aerials show bunkering that had lots of vegetation present inside.
Does anyone know if these were more like Merion's grasses, or more, I suspect based on the photos, like Oakmont's Church Pews?
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Five Emmet courses I would restore to original states:
1. Meadowbrook Hunt
2. Huntington Crescent East* & West
3. MacGregor Links*
4. Northport
5. Tie: Queens Valley; original plan for Rockwood Hall 36
The Depression and outward expansion of NYC led to the early demise or redesign of most Emmet courses.
*extant courses, significantly altered fm original
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1. Plum Hollow
2. Grosse Ile
3. Southern Pines
4. Inverness
5. Western
6. Sylvania
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Saunton - back to what Herbert Fowler laid out before WWII changed it
Minchinhampton Old - back to pre-roadways/H&S changes
Swansea Bay - back to pre-WWI/industrial expansion
A whole load of farmers field courses built in the 1960's-70's-80's-90's and some big money recent projects - back to nature - ouch!
Atb
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This is a good thread. Interesting to see some courses named that have since been significantly restored.
One course that I thought would benefit tremendously from a restoration is El Campeon at Mission Inn (FL). As it is today, the course is extremely fun and interesting architecturally, but it could use many, many (no idea the #) fewer trees, in addition to some bunker work and re-capturing of edges/perimeter of greens.
The Asheville (NC) muni is a darn good Ross that could really shine with the right work.
I'd love to see Granville (OH) restored...a full restoration would require demolishing a neighborhood that was built over most of the last few holes, but with 14 really good holes still there, it would be great to see some improvement to the new clunkers.
Bethpage Green (NY) has always been a favorite of mine. I'd be interested in seeing it receive as much TLC as the Red course has. There is some really awesome and different stuff out there.
My last one is a bit further from home...Olivos GC (Buenos Aires). It has incredible 'bones' and is maintained very well with the exception that it is choked by trees. A widening and general freshening up might make it a stronger contender for best in Argentina.
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Southern Pines GC
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1. Pebble Beach
2. Augusta National
3. Oakland Hills South
4. Lookout Mountain
5. Pinehurst #4 - Hanse redesign
5. The Lido (See Streamsong thread)
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1. Plum Hollow
2. Grosse Ile
3. Southern Pines
4. Inverness
5. Western
6. Sylvania
Nice Restart Ben. Interesting to read those that have been done since the thread began.
I'll start in the Midwest:
1: Wakonda CC - (Iowa) So much potential with the ghost of Langford sleeping in plain site.
You can see trees planted in the middle of original bunkers.
2: Riviera CC
3: Yale U GC - Deserved and due
4: Wellshire GC - Denver a sleeping Ross
5: Wilson in LA Griffith Park or Rancho Park
Either would benefit from Doak/C&C/Hanse/Prichard/Forse Style big idea restoration/re-imagination
Potential to deliver Bethpage type results More room to work at Wilson
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Hop Meadow CC - The course I grew up playing had some cool amoeba-shaped greens originally (1961; Geoff Cornish), but by the time I was getting to know it, they were basically all ovals or circles.
Manchester CC - The course cites Bendelow, Emmet and Tillinghast as influences. There are some spots where Golden Age features shine through, but not enough. Could be really something with a little restorative love.
Lake Wales CC - Would love to see what Raynor features and aesthetics could be recovered and the extent to which it could give Mountain Lake a run for its money.
Lexington G&CC - My home course in college; has undoubtedly lost some square-footage of greens over the years and trees have encroached.
Tot Hill Farm - I think some features have fallen by the wayside; would love to see them brought back.
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I'm going to substitute "renovate" for "restore" because reasons, for my list of courses on which I'd blow a PowerBall win.
1. Elbel Park in South Bend, which has a super piece of land with much potential.
2. Braid Hills, not to remove the quirk, but to make better use of the land used on the NLE #2.
3. I'd love to see someone use the land at Musselburgh (Monktonhall) for something more fun than exists there.
4. Ed Oliver in Wilmington struck me as a cool layout that could benefit from some TLC.
5. The Glen, North Berwick. Will never scale the highs of NBWL on the other side of town, but a course I've always enjoyed.
6. University of Maryland, because their redo of the Cobb design does the property no justice.
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#1 on my list remains Princes...pre-war Princes.
#2...I am not sure about a restoration, but some serious work...Grosse Ile
#3 on my list is Huntercombe...imagine the trees gone and some of those bunkers put back into play?
#4 on my list Beau Desert....just cut nearly all the trees down
#5 on my list Royal Zoute....no restoration...just a complete rethink...that land, soil and turf is too good for what exists
Ciao
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If I knew how to load pictures properly, I would scan the course plan of Prince's from the 1932 Open Championship progamme, and post it here, just to reinforce Sean's point: in like vein I also have somewhere, or had, some photos of pre-war Prince's from the Oxford-Cambridge match of 1937, in which my uncle Neill was a participant. It does look fabulous, and the oft-repeated statement that 'Prince's was flattened during the war' looks pretty much true.
Agree with Sean completely re Huntercombe, even though the trees and associated undergrowth are now coming down at a considerable rate. Also agree with Thomas Dai re pre-war Saunton (West, especially), and pre-motorway Swansea Bay, when the latter was arguably the premier club in Glamorgan apart from Porthcawl (with whom I think it shares part of a clubhouse...).
With modern technology, I think that Harlech could now make a go of the 2-3 experimental holes opened (very briefly) during the 1920s, in the big sand dunes south of the 16th (you can make out one of these old fairways very easily from the 16th fairway), but given up before the 1926 Ladies' Championship because of blown sand. That could be fabulous, and please those like Tom D who want to see more use made of the duneland than the present layout manifests.
Above all, though, I would like to restore to life the Royal Isle of Wight Golf Club, Bembridge. Friends in the golf history world have hit shots in the dunes on the Duver, as it called, and you can even stay in the old clubhouse, but to me anyway this 'engaging cats'-cradle' of a seaside links remains, along with Bramshot and Addington (New), the greatest NLE in England, not least because Worlington would still have a genuine rival for the accolade of 'Best Nine-Hole Course' if Bembridge could be brought back to life. Albeit for a maximum of about fifty players a day!
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1. Plum Hollow
2. Grosse Ile
3. Southern Pines
4. Inverness
5. Western
6. Sylvania
Inverness is going under the knife this year.
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1. Plum Hollow
2. Grosse Ile
3. Southern Pines
4. Inverness
5. Western
6. Sylvania
I would be interested in reading your reasoning for each redo/restoration.
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3. Westchester CC Ken Dyes work does not seem sympathetic to Travis ; tree management is also needed
I actually got to pitch that idea to them and lost out to Fazio who renovated the courses some more.
Worked out well though, Joe recommended me to other clubs to interview, I ended up with a couple from that.
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My Stanley Thompson Five:
1. Highland Golf Links, if you have seen all the old photos, you would realize how much better it could be.
2. Cataraqui is all there waiting to be reclaimed. One of the best and easiest Thompson courses to recapture
3. St George's; This is one of the four changed greens, all are well photographed and two are completely still intact.
4. Banff Springs back to the pre-Robinson, 18 holes, original routing, restoration of bunkers using the old photos.
5. The origional York Downs
Hindsight was fun for me.... worked on first three, quoted to do the work on fourth one and last one remains as it should at this point ... a public park (I think my opinions have changed too).
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My New Canadian Five
1. Montebello (QU) was the next best course he did after Thompson's Big Five
Routing is intact - architecture is all gone - lots of pictures and drawings - and I even have the hole plans
2. Digby Pines (NS) clever resort course, some great bunkering, eroding rather than lost
3. Mount Bruno (QU) - this one is easy if everyone decides that is now the goal - lots of information and images
4. Hamilton (ON) - we have everything you would need to return Colt including his plans
(this is important because Hawtree's work at Toronto was anything but a restoration)
5. Anne of Green Gables (PEI) - return the golf course to the dunes - some of the other inland work has been done well
Obviously I have work to do at Highlands Links and St. Georges, would still like to fix Banff Springs, would like to correct the changes made to Jasper Park and I have one western course that I think I could help make the work more restorative.
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1. Plum Hollow- This courses bones are really sick. Massive tree removal and drainage are top priority. Then I would hire Foster to the Alison features. I'd sand cap the 13th hole and build up the fairway to . I'd consider moving 18th green back in the hill. Restore the Alison mowing lines that have been lost. Some of the greens have shrunk. This course could be the best in the D IMO. Due to drainage and tree removal it would cost a lot but could recover it if owned privately.
2. Grosse Ile- The best set of Ross greens or possibly any greens that I've played. Drainage, Drainage, and more Drainage. Tree removal in the driving zone and around greens. Some sand capping in driving zones and approaches. Re grassed. The course plays way to soft and is tired. I'd remove a lot of the cart paths that destroy some of the holes, the 1st comes to mind. The bunkering needs to be restored as well.
3. Southern Pines- I've only played the course once, so Chris Buie would be consulted first. Tree removal seems to be priority one. Some drainage in areas. Ran and Chris would be in charge. I'd try and improve turf conditions and tree removal would help IMO.
4. Inverness- I'd restore some of the Ross cross bunkers. Restore the lost width. Some of the Ross greens I'd restore. I'd bring the original par 3 8th back! Make current 8th a par 4 semi Cape. The new 8th green would be located 100-125 cards south of where it is on top of the ridge by the edge. I'd blow up holes 3-6, and make 2 holes out of it.
5. Western- Restore the greens which have shrunk a lot. Remove all the Hills bunkers that are by the River. The River has too much brush covering it. Drainage is very important. Raise with capping some of the low are holes. Crown those fairways. The 2 holes that were switched directions on the back 9, I'd look those over. Course needs lots of tree removal too.
6. Sylvania- Restore the lost green space. Bring the Park bunkering back. Regrass the course and it needs new Irrigation system. Continued tree removal, lots more!
Possibly look at turning 7 back into the par 5 it was and eliminating the 6th hole. Turn 17 into a par 4 and bring the short par 3 after it back. These ideas are bold and need some review.
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#5 on my list Royal Zoute....no restoration...just a complete rethink...that land, soil and turf is too good for what exists
Ciao
Fav line of thread. Just because something was original doesn't automatically mean its worthy of restoration.
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Purely for selfish reasons (near me) b/c there are more that are in a dire need/deserving of a restoration.
Lekarica (Lake Wales, FL)
Lake Wales CC
Lake Pierce (Lake Wales, FL) - NLE, but the land hasn't ever been altered or used since it died, so using an old aerial and Ross plan could bring it back to life.
Mission Inn - El Campeon
Eglin AFB - L&M course
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1. The Jockey Club - Red.
Because it is a very interesting Alister MacKenzie course that has been neglected and needs restoration of bunkers, some greens, tree removal, new green surfaces and updated maintenance guidelines.
2. The Jockey Club - Blue
Same story.
3. San Andres Golf Club
Restore greens and bunkers to what Mungo Park and Luther Koontz designed. Koontz sole influence was Mackenzie. Clear trees. Add length. Convert one par 5 to a par 4 (already done in competition). Clear more trees and add waste areas as originally presented by Park instead.
Why, because they are close to home and could become Doak 7s with the appropriate work done. Maybe even higher Tom for the Red?
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Nice Restart Ben. Interesting to read those that have been done since the thread began.
I'll start in the Midwest:
1: Wakonda CC - (Iowa) So much potential with the ghost of Langford sleeping in plain site.
You can see trees planted in the middle of original bunkers.
2: Riviera CC
3: Yale U GC - Deserved and due
4: Wellshire GC - Denver a sleeping Ross
5: Wilson in LA Griffith Park or Rancho Park
Either would benefit from Doak/C&C/Hanse/Prichard/Forse Style big idea restoration/re-imagination
Potential to deliver Bethpage type results More room to work at Wilson
Is there any hope for Yale? Also who is doing the Inverness reno?
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-Augusta National - I'm of the belief that if the original MacKenzie / Jones design concepts were restored to the course that the tournament would see a more consistently thrilling & dramatic style of play without losing the necessary challenge.
-Pebble Beach - The best bunker restoration in the world? Definitely in the discussion....Also, I'd love to see the lower fairway on the 9th brought back into play.
-Lahinch - I'd love to see the rugged appearance of the bunkers brought back to the course. The 'pons asinorum' bunker has to be one of the all time greats.
-Yale - We probably all agree on that.
-Lookout Mountain - As a Chattanooga native, it would be a thrill to see Raynor's plan fully implemented.
-I feel compelled to throw in Oakland Hills. If the bunkering & strategy matched the greens....wow. Too bad the plan was recently voted down.
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1) Cobb's Creek
2) Timber Point
3) Inverness (to original Ross routing)
4) Forsgate (Banks) (mostly tree removal)
5) Foxburg
6) Continue tree removal at Cape Breton Highlands
Off the top of my head.
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How about the Adington New? Darwin thought it Abercromby's best and you'd only have to knock down some of those houses. Oh well.
(http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f174/Muldoon3/Addington/adddingtonnew.jpg)
That one definitely sprang to mind. I would also love to see The Add as it was, not strangled by trees as it is now. Another one is Princes. Apparently it was tremendous and a real rival to Sandwich. I understand that it was just under 7,000 yards and it was thought of as a great test!!
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1) North Fulton: A gem of a routing with a wonderful lineage. Under the right direction it could become Atlanta's "Bethpage"
2) Pinehurst No.3: In this case, by restore I would mean truly restored to the original no.3 routing. Pinehurst is missing something special by not restoring this course to its former formidable self.
3) Gibson Island Club: Maybe it's just the setting, but the pictures I've seen of the original course look simply spectacular.
4) Belvedere: Maybe the least "needed" of the bunch, but I'd love to see this place today with the bunker scheme of yesterday.
5*)Country Club of Asheville: Hopefully not necessary, but that won't be known until the course re-opens this spring.
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[size=0pt]1.[/size][size=0pt][/size][size=0pt]The Olympic Club – Lake[/size]
[size=0pt]2.[/size][size=0pt][/size][size=0pt]The Olympic Club – Lake[/size]
[size=0pt]3.[/size][size=0pt][/size][size=0pt]The Olympic Club – Lake[/size]
[size=0pt]4.[/size][size=0pt][/size][size=0pt]The Olympic Club – Ocean[/size]
[size=0pt]5.[/size][size=0pt][/size][size=0pt]Lake Merced G&CC[/size]
[size=0pt]Seriously, it’s time. To our paraphrase our Twitterer, I mean Commander (cough, cough) in Chief, let’s “Make Olympic Great Again”.[/size]
[size=0pt]If I’m not mistaken, every major course in the Bay Area, except these three, have had significant restorations/renovations by top-tier architects (except maybe Stanford GC). The same can be said for our Southern California brethren. Yet, the OC continues on a path of head-scratching, piecemeal work on the Lake course… from completely changing three holes, which have negatively altered the course’s compact routing, to a recent bunker project that’s more akin to a skateboard park than bunker design.[/size]
[size=0pt]And, much like “MAGA” draws much scrutiny as to which era we should return to “greatness”, restoring the Lake course would surely raise similar questions. Is it to the original Watson design? Or, is it to the RTJ design in preparation for the 1955 US Open. Or something else (i.e. like Seth Raynor's vision that hangs in the Locker Room)? I don’t know that answer, and that’s why I’d love to see a first rate design firm provide leadership on this.[/size]
[size=0pt]For Olympic’s Ocean course, in an ideal world, it would be amazing if we were able to recapture some of the lost holes on the other side of Skyline Blvd. which were set among the bluff overlooking the Pacific. Don’t see that happening. Short of that, since there are so many iterations of the Ocean that I’m not sure what one could possibly restore to, a renovation of this course as completely opposite of its sibling, the Lake, would be interesting (i.e. Lake = championship/Ocean = Sporty; Lake = Tree and Rough-lined/Ocean = wide-open; Lake = amoeba-shaped bunkering/Ocean = simple shapes; Lake = manicured/Ocean = wild & wooly).[/size]
[size=0pt]For Lake Merced, would love to see hole #4 reworked as it just doesn’t fit with the rest of the course. And would certainly love to see some significant tree removal and fairway widening to bring in lost angles and shots. [/size]
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2) Pinehurst No.3: In this case, by restore I would mean truly restored to the original no.3 routing. Pinehurst is missing something special by not restoring this course to its former formidable self.
A full restoration would be incredible, but unfortunately, you'd likely have to level several dozen homes and condos and displace a few hundred people to accomplish the goal. Kye Goalby is leading some work on no. 3 right now. Some sympathetic changes in preparation for accommodating the new par 3 course. Some restorative work happening in the coming weeks, though, too.
there's still plenty of original Ross to make it interesting and several fairway features that could (and will in the coming weeks/months) be restored. If you're in the area it's worth checking out what's been done to no. 3.
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2) Pinehurst No.3: In this case, by restore I would mean truly restored to the original no.3 routing. Pinehurst is missing something special by not restoring this course to its former formidable self.
A full restoration would be incredible, but unfortunately, you'd likely have to level several dozen homes and condos and displace a few hundred people to accomplish the goal. Kye Goalby is leading some work on no. 3 right now. Some sympathetic changes in preparation for accommodating the new par 3 course. Some restorative work happening in the coming weeks, though, too.
there's still plenty of original Ross to make it interesting and several fairway features that could (and will in the coming weeks/months) be restored. If you're in the area it's worth checking out what's been done to no. 3.
From what I can tell, there are only 3 locations on the original No.3 routing that are currently obstructed by housing. The Green and fairway of the original 7th (Current 16th on No.5), The back tee on the original 15th (Current 8th on No.3), and the back tee on the original 17th (Current 15th on No. 3). In the case of all three I believe that an amicable design solution could be found to best preserve the original feel and play ability of the course without displacing many, if any, residents.
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1. The Old Course. Take it back to the 1860's when the course was half the width as to what it is today, and in reverse order. You couldn't play the Open there anymore, but you would have one helluva golf course for all abilities and all ages, using all sorts of balls and implements
2. and 3. The New and Jubilee. Take the best land and the best existing holes to create the "Super Course" that the powers that were wanted to do in the 30's and 40's and make a proper championship course by current standards.
4. From the land left over from 2. and 3. above, make a decent "2nd" course.
5. Return the Eden course to its past glory (which of course requires moving the current driving range, probably to the 1st hole on the Jubilee).
Doak, Coore, Crenshaw, Hanse, Papazian and Barney should be responsible for these changes and detained and extradicted to some place like Askernish if they refuse to implement these high level ideas until they get tired of the Hebrides.
Your can keep the Castle course as a monument to the foibles of early 21st Century architecture.
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-Lookout Mountain - As a Chattanooga native, it would be a thrill to see Raynor's plan fully implemented.
Yes, that would be awesome!
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2) Pinehurst No.3: In this case, by restore I would mean truly restored to the original no.3 routing. Pinehurst is missing something special by not restoring this course to its former formidable self.
A full restoration would be incredible, but unfortunately, you'd likely have to level several dozen homes and condos and displace a few hundred people to accomplish the goal. Kye Goalby is leading some work on no. 3 right now. Some sympathetic changes in preparation for accommodating the new par 3 course. Some restorative work happening in the coming weeks, though, too.
there's still plenty of original Ross to make it interesting and several fairway features that could (and will in the coming weeks/months) be restored. If you're in the area it's worth checking out what's been done to no. 3.
From what I can tell, there are only 3 locations on the original No.3 routing that are currently obstructed by housing. The Green and fairway of the original 7th (Current 16th on No.5), The back tee on the original 15th (Current 8th on No.3), and the back tee on the original 17th (Current 15th on No. 3). In the case of all three I believe that an amicable design solution could be found to best preserve the original feel and play ability of the course without displacing many, if any, residents.
You could return 75% of it, but you're also eliminating holes from course 5. Where do you make those up? Also, the corridors of no. 3 will never be as wide as they once were because housing has crept in, eliminating strategy on 2/3 of the holes. A true restoration would be very difficult.