Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture Discussion Group => Topic started by: DTaylor18 on August 25, 2003, 10:45:44 PM
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With all the talk of course rankings, i came accross an interesting article in the September/October issue of PGA Tour Partners Magazine. Brad Faxon discusses one of his hobbies, playing the top golf courses in the country. He discusses some of his top 10 courses listed below, which are in no particular order:
Pine Valley (he got goosebumps as they were parking the car)
Chicago Golf Club
Crystal Downs Country Club
San Francisco Golf Club
Pebble Beach (his personal favorite because it is the most spectacular place he's ever been)
Cypress Point
Riviera (he says the 10th hole is his favorite short par 4 in the world)
Merion (he wants another US Open here)
Oak Hill
He also mentions that Rhode Island CC, Newport CC, and Wannamoisett CC are three of his favorite Ross courses. Nothing too shocking, but I thought it was interesting from a TOur Player's perspective.
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Oak Hill ???
I didn't know Brad Faxon had played Crystal Downs. I'll have to ask around about when that was.
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He seems to have good taste and a good sense of history, getting goosebumps parking the car at PV! Also not fixated on long courses (he's not a big hitter).
For a guy who grew up in RI (at RICC) playing a bunch of very good Ross courses around, he must have bunched them together, because last I heard, Newport CC was a Tillie design.
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Only Pebble and Riveria being yearly tour stops.
I played with a tour player a few years ago who seemed to have a good eye for architecture. He mentioned they play very few good golf courses on tour, having moved to TPC type courses over the last 20 years.
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Brad has good taste, though I too wondered about Oak Hill. I also wonder if Brad's played the courses Shivas mentions, eg Sand Hills, or whether they're on his "Next Fifty."
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Clearly Brad Faxon has not yet found and played Fernindina Beach Municipal or it would be near the top of his list. ;)
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Cut the guy some slack. That's a damned good list. He lists ten and people criticize him for leaving off X,Y & Z. There's room for only 10. lf he you asked him for twenty you'd get the answer you are looking for.
By the way, talk to most every golf pro and they will tell you that the bulk of the Tour venues are awful. The standard rule of thumb is that they play the 3rd best course in town, but that's in itself an exaggeration and they know it.
Two weeks ago, Faxon and his buddy, Billy Andrade, drove to the south side of Boston on their own (free) time to play a new Silva course, Black Rock, Then they toured an adjoining property, Boston GC (by Gil Hanse) that was under construction. That tells me they care somewhat about architecture. Good for them.
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I'm pretty sure that Brad Faxon has come across to play Machrihanish in the past, which is a pretty good sign that he's more interested in golf course architecture than most Tour players. I think his list is pretty good, too...
Cheers,
Darren
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Now someone has to ask Brad what 10 courses does he most want to see for the first time.
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Brad - That would be an interesting answer IMO and one I would like to see golf publications ask the tour pros from time to time.
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I like the PV goosebumps quote. If you haven't ever driven up there, it's amazing. You come from near a aging amusement park (Clementon Park), down a dead end street (Railroad Ave.) with unused train tracks on the right side and very average houses on the left.
Then, you hit golf heaven - you hit the dead end, but there's a little road across the railroad tracks leading to the Pine Valley police department and borough hall - a flag is always waving. Just beyond that is the gate and one of the world's best golf courses.
I waked PV during the Philadelphia Open last year, and had goose bumps just driving in on the school bus! And, yes, I have returned, just to catch a glimpse of #2 from the road...
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Scott Burroughs -
I've seen multiple architectural credits on Newport CC given to Willie Davis (1894), Donald Ross (1915) and Tillinghast (1924).
Not sure on the accuracy of the dates as they were culled from different sources.
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What, no mention of the Furman University Golf Course??!! ::)
Come on, Brad, they still have your course-record 62 score card hanging on the clubhouse wall. :) :)
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Scratch,
Even Ross expert (and New Englander) Brad Klein didn't dispute the statement about Tillie. The Tillie Society website lists NCC as an Original Design. Perhaps it is similar to Shinnecock re:Flynn vs. Dunn/Raynor/Mac.
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That's very interesting, since I took two of the Newport dates from a 1999 listing of Golf & Travel's "Best Classical Courses" - since G&T was owned by Turnstile (GOLFWEEK), doesn't that mean it was edited by Brad? It lists Donald Ross (1915) and the Tillinghast (1924). I took the W. Davis date from GOLF MAGAZINE's 2001 listing (it was handy).
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A few other tidbits from the article I didn't have time to post last night:
He said his recent trip to Pine Valley was his first trip there in the last 18 years, and that it was one of the few famous places thatl ives up to the hype. He said that nearly every tee shot strikes terror and that he was happy to shhot a 68 there on a relatively calm day.
He said he's embarking on an effort to play more of the great courses because he is a budding architect. He went to Crystal Downs becasue Ben Crenshaw raved about it so much.
He preferred San Francisco over Winged Foot, Baltusrol, and Bethpage Black, three other Tillinghast courses he said he held in high regard.
He really seemed excited to play these courses, and I would bet that he hasn't played at a place like Sand Hills, since it's so off the beaten track. After all, he's pretty busy most of the time playing places like Augusta. ;D
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Shivas, fair enough point, though I'm still not sure what the point of your "omission" is. In any case, I am constantly amazed that when I'm asked and others I hear about are asked for their "N-favorite" courses, they invariably get an argument as if they had left some indispensable course off the list.
The really interesting issue now with Faxon will be the extent to which he incorporates this respect into his own (limited, thus far) design work.
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No real surprise. Brad Faxon wrote an article many moons ago (96'?) about the over-watering trend modern golf was taking. He correctly predicted the loss of the "shotmaker" and should probably be the next feature interview on this site. I'd be more interested in his undoubtedly humble opinions on GCA.(Oh that's what that list was) He seems to be going about his education in the proper manner. Is he credited with any design work already? Has he consulted on any? Hopefully he will get over any obstacles and debut soon.
atta'boy
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Faxon & Booth Golf Design, LLC
Newport National Golf Club (Middletown, RI)
Bay Club Mattapoisett (Mattapoisett, MA) under construction
Burnt Mill Country Club(Wells, ME) under construction
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"Cut the guy some slack. That's a damned good list. He lists ten and people criticize him for leaving off X,Y & Z. There's room for only 10. lf he you asked him for twenty you'd get the answer you are looking for."
Brad:
And in that statement of yours lies the very reason why, in my opinion, the entire ranking process of golf courses, the way it's done, sucks! Too many people are unhappy about the results, too few understand the inherent fallacy in it all, and from the perspective of particular courses it can result in the detrimental architecturally speaking, in the long run too.
Rich Goodale's "Michelin star system" is a far better way to evaluate architecture, as the down-side of 1-10, 1-20, 1-50 or 1-100 numerical competition is not nearly so great!
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"Rich Goodale's "Michelin star system" is a far better way to evaluate architecture, as the down-side of 1-10, 1-20, 1-50 or 1-100 numerical competition is not nearly so great!"
Do my eyes deceive me? The Doyen of Doyens AGREEING with Rich Goodale?
Wow... this is a momentus day.
Actually, I don't think that's the worst idea in the world either, although it won't sell as many magazines. Still, it is likely the best thing in the interest of the game, so I'm all for it. Just expand the stars to 5 - three is not enough.
TH
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TeP- It may be a better way, if better is defined as closed ended.
With the controversy, the lobbying and hoopla, one can gain insight into the real nature of individual people just from their reaction to the lists. Similar to the way you know someone's character from having golfed with them.
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Mr. Huckaby -
You have been brainwashed by the manufacturers of the Momentus weighted club into some questionable spelling!!
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Oh man, that is a good one. Great catch, Michael. :-[
Interesting... maybe this is a golf/freudian slip?
TH
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Shivas,
I think Brad Klein is correct, one does get the impression that you were being critical by referencing the courses he left out.
The problem with your use of the word "omission" is that you don't know which courses he has played, hence you don't know if he omitted a course, or if the course was never on his list for consideration in the first place. A huge distinction.
If he never played Sand Hills, Friar's Head or Pacific Dunes, those courses shouldn't be viewed as an omission, and neither should his top ten list be viewed as questionable.
TEPaul,
It pains me to agree with you, ;D but too much emphasis is put on rankings.
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None of the Booth-Faxon designs are open for play. Mattapoisett and Wells are under construction. I walked Mattapoisett with Brad and Brad two weeks ago when they were flagging fairways so the construction crew would know where fairways ended and rough began. The course looks very interesting with a good variety of holes and strategy. Most greens are open in front and the superintendent is big on maintaining a firm golf course.
It should also be noted that Faxon spent a lot of time playing Eastward Ho as well as Rhode Island Country Club while growing up.
I'm supposed to visit the Wells site in a few weeks.
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I think Faxon is going about learning architecture in a good way (for a Tour pro), by seeing and playing the top courses. I say 'for a Tour pro' because he doesn't have to do it the 'hard way' by going to school, studying LA or whatever, working in the field on bulldozers, apprenticing, etc. all taking many years.
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I've always found it admirable that Fax from the beginning of his career would go over to qualify for the Open Championship rather than stay home and try to make a check.
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Now if he would just quit using the "Cheater" line Shivas might cut him a break. ;)
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Shivas,
Because you can't qualify if the venues are ones he's played or not played, and that is critical to the observation.
It would be interesting if he had played all of the courses you listed.
It wouldn't be interesting if he hasn't played any of the courses you listed.
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Shivas - Not sure anyone else got your reference to short, scruffy Peter Jans, but I certainly did. Back in 1967, I played a few rounds on that par 60 course while a student at a Summer Engineering Institute at Northwestern University. I remember the course well, wedged between the canal and the El line. It was called Evanston Community Golf Course back then, and it helped generate my interest in golf course architecture. Comparisons to that course with Beverly Country Club, where the Western Open was held that year, caused me to realize that not all golf courses were alike. Which led me to start researching everything I could find on golf course design, which wasn't much. Which led me to feel like I should write a book on the subject, which led me . . .
Having just read Cinderalla Story, I now find that Bill Murray was working on the maintenance crew at Evanston Community that very summer when I was knocking it around its tiny flat greens. Didn't know him, of course, but still, I think it counts as a Brush with Greatness.
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I would be curious to see a ranking of the top ten worst courses on tour in the player's eye.
I think that Faxon's list is pretty good, I would bet that he was asked the question and answered it within a minute or so, who of us could give a perfect list doing that? I haven't played alot of "the classics or great" but in the golf I have played I would have a tough time quickly giving a list.
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I've always found it admirable that Fax from the beginning of his career would go over to qualify for the Open Championship rather than stay home and try to make a check.
One of the most amazing accomplishments that I can recall was the year that he went over to qualify and didn't make it and then came back and won the event that week here. Was it the BC?
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Oak Hill ???
I didn't know Brad Faxon had played Crystal Downs. I'll have to ask around about when that was.
Tom Doak,
Had dinner with a member of the Downs this past weekend who said that Faxon was up at there earlier this summer. He apparently raved about the course, though he made the comment that the pros would probably eat it alive! Depending on the wind, he thought that all the short par 4s (5, 6, 7, 15, and 17) were candidates to be driven and both the par fives (8 and 16) would be reached in two by many...
I guess the pro's DO play a different game than us mere mortals! :o
17 was apparently his favorite hole and I was told he shot a 34-36 for an even par 70...
RPM
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I have little doubt that the pros would gobble up 16 and devour it whole. But, 8? I ain't buying that at 550+ and undulating fairways for indeterminate lies, with that false fronted green and no effective bail left or right. My perception of what the pros do can't be that far off, can it :-\ ::)
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"TEPaul,
It pains me to agree with you, (but too much emphasis is put on rankings)."
Patrick:
Take a couple of aspirins a day and learn to live with it PAL! ;)
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Ron Whitten:
It's just as well you didn't know Bill Murray when he worked on the crew in '67 at Evanston Community G.C. On his time off he was always either wrecked or high and on the job he didn't do much other than try to nuke groundhogs! It was Murray who blew up that great "concept copy" of a reverse redan by mistake. What was that hole? Was it #4?
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Can someone fill me in on what Jans National is??? Thank you!
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redanman
As I'm sure you know, in Michelin (food) most restaurants in France get negative stars, in effect. Of the 10,000 or so (let's assume) eating establishments in France, roughly 3/4 (7,500 for the math-challenged are not even listed in the Red Guide. Many of those places offer grub before which most foodies would genuflect--even in New Orleans or San Francisco. Of the remain 2,500, 2000 get no stars, 350 or so get 1*, 120 get 2** and 30 get 3***. Believe me when I say that there is much more (and richer) brouhaha involved in the movements between generic * categories when the annual ratings come out than there will ever be on GCA regarding the various brands of course ratings/rankings that we discuss.
Huckster
Tom Paul actually agrees with me on virtually everything of any importance in golf. He only admits to a few now (e.g. Michelin, "maintenance meld") but he's slowly coming around.......
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Evan- I guess Peter Jans is the former Evanston Community, or as us locals use to call it, Canal Shores. It is so funny that we discuss this course because after having moved from three doors from Jackson Pk. I could be seen most days in the early 70's at the snack shop on or about that 3rd or 4th hole. Must've played that course a hundred times. Located under the el tracks on Central ave just down the hill from Evanston Hospital, the first two or three go out straight like string on some of the narrowest ground this game knows. Maybe not originally that narrow but with the growing of trees( a chicago trademark) the narrowness was accentuated. Also, being a slicer made it tough. Maybe that's why I'm so straight now? Ha! With the steep slopes of the sanitary canal along one side of almost every hole, the course has a serpentine loopdy loop routing out to the Ba'Hai temple. (A very spiritual place at the junction of the canal and Lake Michigan adjacent to Gilson Park) and back into Evanston mostly along the west bank of the canal. Quirk wouldn't begin to describe the use of the little sections of land that are connected to comprise this course which is sandwiched between fancy neighborhood homes, the canal and the el tracks.
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Maybe we could get an AOTD of the sporty/testing Jans National?
What do you say Scott?
KLP
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Shivas,
How could he list them if he never played them ?
I think it's inherent in the exercise.
Unless of course, Tom MacWood assisted him. ;D
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Shivas,
Does getting the confirmation from his father-in-law count ? ;D
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Kenny,
What, the other Chicago AOTD today wasn't enough? And there's already been 14 other past Chicagoland AOTDs....
;)
Speaking of today's....where's Shivas? I see he's logged in...hint hint... 8)
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I was just surprised you hadn't responded so far this evening, I see you've been logged in for a little while....
My guess is exactly 1. When you already know it's Chicago, you can study all you want on the first post! Regardless, you'd have gotten it first post anyways.