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GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture Discussion Group => Topic started by: Thomas Dai on July 29, 2014, 03:19:43 PM

Title: A links course par-3 as a one hole case study with pix - thoughts please?
Post by: Thomas Dai on July 29, 2014, 03:19:43 PM
This is the par-3 9th hole at Dunfanaghy GC, a lovely mellow, quiet links in Donegal. Not one of the obvious big stars of Irish golf nor indeed of the area but a thoroughly enjoyable place to play, splendidly conditioned and in a wonderfully scenic position. Not easy either. There is a terrific photo tour of the whole course, one of the best photo tours posted on GCA IMO, by Donal - see - http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,49256.0.html - for more.

The hole plays 124 metres from the daily tees. From the medal tee it plays a bit longer and the tee shot is angled such that more of the beach, which is OOB, has to be carried.

What do you think of the hole?

What, if anything, would you do to improve it?

Below are a variety of photos taken from different angles.

I'm curious as to what architects and enthusiast think of the hole, which is why I've termed it a one hole case study.

From the tee
(http://i1311.photobucket.com/albums/s661/thomasdai/P1010687_zpsaf8a5250.jpg)
from nearer the green
(http://i1311.photobucket.com/albums/s661/thomasdai/P1010685_zps6491c615.jpg)
From the rear (10th tee)
(http://i1311.photobucket.com/albums/s661/thomasdai/P1010692_zps4e227d4c.jpg)
(http://i1311.photobucket.com/albums/s661/thomasdai/P1010691_zps744dd1c4.jpg)
from the left side
(http://i1311.photobucket.com/albums/s661/thomasdai/P1010682_zpsb39f1d09.jpg)
from close-by the left side
(http://i1311.photobucket.com/albums/s661/thomasdai/P1010688_zps52346221.jpg)
from the left side at the rear
(http://i1311.photobucket.com/albums/s661/thomasdai/P1010689_zpsc901385c.jpg)

Depending on the response I'll do a separate thread on both a similarly quietly located, lesser known par-4 and par-5 sometime.

So what do you think of this hole?

atb
Title: Re: A links course par-3 as a one hole case study with pix - thoughts please?
Post by: Garland Bayley on July 29, 2014, 03:47:55 PM
It appears the beach that is played across is OB. I would remove the OB for hackers frustration relief.

It appears the green and surrounds are irrigated. I would appear that said irrigation may cause knarly rough behind green where ball searching will need to occur. Mow, or modify the irrigation.
Title: Re: A links course par-3 as a one hole case study with pix - thoughts please?
Post by: Ronald Montesano on July 29, 2014, 04:01:04 PM
I would move the bunker rightward, toward the center, and a bit toward the tee (maybe five yards). I'd like to see the front tongue of green disappear into fairway length. Extend the green to the left. The hole is short enough that you shouldn't need carom from the sides.
Title: Re: A links course par-3 as a one hole case study with pix - thoughts please?
Post by: Josh Tarble on July 29, 2014, 04:13:50 PM
It looks like a mighty fine hole to me.  I would probably leave well enough alone. 


If changes had to be made though, I would probably try mow green closer to the bunker and further left above the bunker so pin could really be tucked in behind.  I'd also make that bunker deeper.
Title: Re: A links course par-3 as a one hole case study with pix - thoughts please?
Post by: Mark Chaplin on July 29, 2014, 04:24:49 PM
Nice hole just get rid of the OOB.
Title: Re: A links course par-3 as a one hole case study with pix - thoughts please?
Post by: mike_malone on July 29, 2014, 04:44:00 PM
I always prefer that such subtle land have a bigger green. It just adds to the fun.
Title: Re: A links course par-3 as a one hole case study with pix - thoughts please?
Post by: Josh Bills on July 29, 2014, 05:06:10 PM
I would leave it alone.  If nothing else agree with removing OOB, really seems no need for it.  As I look at the hole it screams to me like a place where MacKenzie would have placed some nice bunkers on the hillside behind the green ala Cypress /Pasatiempo.  However, I can only imagine such excess is not needed on a course like this, but that is what popped into my mind as I looked at it.  I would stick with leaving it alone. 

Josh
Title: Re: A links course par-3 as a one hole case study with pix - thoughts please?
Post by: Simon Holt on July 29, 2014, 05:15:37 PM
I am the only one who wants to play the hole the other way around?  Hitting from the green back to the tee is a much better visual for me.  I don't know the routing but could this be a Dumb Blonde hole?

Still a perfectly acceptable golf hole.  Lovely spot.
Title: Re: A links course par-3 as a one hole case study with pix - thoughts please?
Post by: Sean_A on July 29, 2014, 05:18:29 PM
I think the hole looks good, maybe better in reverse?  I really like the grass face on the bunker.  The beach may not be club land....

One thought, make the bunker smaller and deeper and push the green more left around it.  

Ciao
Title: Re: A links course par-3 as a one hole case study with pix - thoughts please?
Post by: Simon Holt on July 29, 2014, 05:21:03 PM
Great minds, Sean.
Title: Re: A links course par-3 as a one hole case study with pix - thoughts please?
Post by: Greg Tallman on July 29, 2014, 05:27:34 PM
Add me to the backwards list
Title: Re: A links course par-3 as a one hole case study with pix - thoughts please?
Post by: Adrian_Stiff on July 29, 2014, 05:45:22 PM
I think it is a nice hole as it is. I like the 20 foot or so of green at the rear.

I would be a great looking hole in reverse also but in this routing it does not fit.
Title: Re: A links course par-3 as a one hole case study with pix - thoughts please?
Post by: Ronald Montesano on July 29, 2014, 06:01:55 PM
In a perfect world, you could flip it, but you have the routing to consider. Pain in the assonance to walk, play, walk.

I like my idea, which is similar to Sean's. I think that front tongue of green is out of place.
Title: Re: A links course par-3 as a one hole case study with pix - thoughts please?
Post by: Bill_McBride on July 29, 2014, 10:40:53 PM
I would leave it alone.  If nothing else agree with removing OOB, really seems no need for it.  As I look at the hole it screams to me like a place where MacKenzie would have placed some nice bunkers on the hillside behind the green ala Cypress /Pasatiempo.  However, I can only imagine such excess is not needed on a course like this, but that is what popped into my mind as I looked at it.  I would stick with leaving it alone. 

Josh

The beach in Scotland is odd.  Sometimes it's in play (North Berwick) and sometimes it's out of bounds (Crail). 
Title: Re: A links course par-3 as a one hole case study with pix - thoughts please?
Post by: Frank Pont on July 30, 2014, 05:52:30 AM
I do not  like the bunker left of the green, looks very artificial. Would change that into a grassy hollow with short cut grass.

I personally would like to see a bit more sand in the bunkers in front of the green, I guess my taste there is different from Sean's ?
Title: Re: A links course par-3 as a one hole case study with pix - thoughts please?
Post by: Thomas Dai on July 30, 2014, 06:46:02 AM
Some very interesting thoughts and alternative suggestions. Thank you all.

I did wonder about the beach being OOB. Perhaps it's not so much about the golf as such, perhaps more about a golfer clambering down onto the beach to find and then desire to hit back an errant tee shot and the potential for a 'disagreement' with a beach user who has just built a sandcastle for his kids on top which is now sitting a ProV1!

A cracking wee hole as it is IMO, and a cracking course/village too.

More thoughts welcome.

atb
Title: Re: A links course par-3 as a one hole case study with pix - thoughts please?
Post by: Sean_A on July 30, 2014, 06:58:37 AM
I do not  like the bunker left of the green, looks very artificial. Would change that into a grassy hollow with short cut grass.

I personally would like to see a bit more sand in the bunkers in front of the green, I guess my taste there is different from Sean's ?

Frank

I didn't realize there were bunkers on the beach side of the green.  If there are, I would they be removed.  Of course, ideally it would be great to get the green closer to the beach, but that probbaly not wise.

Ciao
Title: Re: A links course par-3 as a one hole case study with pix - thoughts please?
Post by: Thomas Dai on July 30, 2014, 07:12:47 AM
I do not like the bunker left of the green, looks very artificial. Would change that into a grassy hollow with short cut grass.
I personally would like to see a bit more sand in the bunkers in front of the green, I guess my taste there is different from Sean's ?
Frank
I didn't realize there were bunkers on the beach side of the green.  If there are, I would they be removed.  Of course, ideally it would be great to get the green closer to the beach, but that probbaly not wise.
Ciao

Old 'once-upon-a-time' bunkers perhaps, but now fluffy grassy hollows.

Incidentally, the rise at the centre of the green is really pronounced and the plateau at the top plays narrow.

As to irrigation, the photos were taken in early May.

I believe the prevailing wind is right-to-left.

atb
Title: Re: A links course par-3 as a one hole case study with pix - thoughts please?
Post by: Jason Topp on July 30, 2014, 07:20:54 AM
I would not touch it other than removing the OOB stakes if you can.   It seemed like all the Irish courses played the beach as OOB so I do not know if it is possible to remove them. 

Shots from the beach are great fun. 
Title: Re: A links course par-3 as a one hole case study with pix - thoughts please?
Post by: Thomas Dai on July 30, 2014, 07:25:29 AM

Shots from the beach are great fun.  


A friend once hit a shot so far right on the 14th at Cruden Bay that he was on the beach, fortunately the tide was way out, in fact he was sooo far out that he had a full 8-iron back to the green. Damn funny moment, one those who witnessed it still chuckle about.

I also remember watching on TV quite a few years ago as Aussie Brett Ogle played a shot from on the beach at Pebble. Not sure which hole it was.

atb
Title: Re: A links course par-3 as a one hole case study with pix - thoughts please?
Post by: Garland Bayley on July 30, 2014, 01:46:22 PM
... to find and then desire to hit back an errant tee shot and the potential for a 'disagreement' with a beach user who has just built a sandcastle for his kids on top which is now sitting a ProV1!
...

What parent would let his kids onto a beach that was in direct line of fire for golf shots?
Title: Re: A links course par-3 as a one hole case study with pix - thoughts please?
Post by: Carl Johnson on July 30, 2014, 07:56:24 PM
Wouldn't mess with it.  Reminds me just a little of the Sea Hole (13) at the Glen Club (North Berwick, East Links).
Title: Re: A links course par-3 as a one hole case study with pix - thoughts please?
Post by: jeffwarne on July 30, 2014, 08:15:20 PM
a perfect hole-wouldn't touch it, though removing the stakes would be nice.
a spectaculalry beautiful part of the course.
10, the next hole, has a fascinating tee shot as well

My son played a ball up to 6 feet from well on the beach at Borth and Ynslas -it was marked as a lateral hazard
Title: Re: A links course par-3 as a one hole case study with pix - thoughts please?
Post by: Jon Wiggett on July 31, 2014, 07:13:54 AM
Hole looks fine. I am not sure the bunker is really needed maybe a hollow or a hump instead. I too would ditch the OOB.

Jon
Title: Re: A links course par-3 as a one hole case study with pix - thoughts please?
Post by: Ally Mcintosh on July 31, 2014, 07:22:53 AM
It's what's happening behind the bunker on the left that doesn't suit my eye.

I don't know the course but I might be inclined to reinstate some of the native grasses back left and try and hide those wide, grass walkways a little better. this would give the rear dune a more cloaking feel the whole way around the green complex.
Title: Re: A links course par-3 as a one hole case study with pix - thoughts please?
Post by: Thomas Dai on July 31, 2014, 01:57:55 PM
Here's a link that should enable you to see the whole course and specifically the 9th hole in more detail.

http://www.bing.com/maps/?v=2&cp=t5xgx7gb327v&lvl=17&dir=0&sty=b&form=LMLTCC

atb
Title: Re: A links course par-3 as a one hole case study with pix - thoughts please?
Post by: Emil Weber on July 31, 2014, 04:33:04 PM
The way it is I wouldn't change much about it. Maybe as mentioned before, replace the bunker by a hollow/hump.

The course looks really good. Too good to be in the British Isles and me never having heard about it  :o .

On the map it looks like there's a little pitch&putt aswell. That might be worthy of note too?
Title: Re: A links course par-3 as a one hole case study with pix - thoughts please?
Post by: Mark Pavy on July 31, 2014, 05:00:04 PM
1. It's a left-handers hole, the horizon line is higher on the left than right.
2. Leave the out of bounds, you deserve the 2 shot penalty if you hit it there.
3. I'd modify the green, particularly the line generated from the high part of the green. Try and level this somewhat by dropping the green area near the trap.
Title: Re: A links course par-3 as a one hole case study with pix - thoughts please?
Post by: Thomas Dai on July 31, 2014, 05:05:02 PM
Emil,

Very observant of you to spot the little pitch-n-putt course, which when I was there had sheep grazing on it. I asked about the p-n-p in the Clubhouse and was told that it is not part of the golf club but is operated by a local farmer and is only open in the summer holiday season.

As to not knowing about Dunfanaghy, if it hadn't been for GCA, and specifically for Donal's photo tour and Jeff's comments, I wouldn't have known about it either, but since visiting it's become a personal favourite and a place I'm extremely keen on returning too.

atb
Title: Re: A links course par-3 as a one hole case study with pix - thoughts please?
Post by: Sean_A on August 01, 2014, 02:48:42 AM
It's what's happening behind the bunker on the left that doesn't suit my eye.

I don't know the course but I might be inclined to reinstate some of the native grasses back left and try and hide those wide, grass walkways a little better. this would give the rear dune a more cloaking feel the whole way around the green complex.

Interesting.  The wide area left suggests to me "safe area" from which it looks like getting up n down is very difficult.

Ciao
Title: Re: A links course par-3 as a one hole case study with pix - thoughts please?
Post by: Thomas Dai on August 01, 2014, 08:22:35 AM
A review of the sat-map indicates that the main teeing area on this hole is pretty large but there's a much smaller tee on a small rocky headland. In overall terms the width of both tees combined is maybe 45 ys, in two separate pieces. When on the course I took the opportunity to walk out onto the rocky headland and this tee alters the angle of the hole considerably from the principle tee, where my 1st photo was taken from.

As to the left rear, there are a couple of paths at the rear that are somewhat on the wide side. Mower paths to the next tees more than player paths I believe, as there's a steep drop-off at the front of the 10th tee that prevents ride-on mower access from all but the rear. In addition, the best line into the green on the previous hole, the rather nice and pretty tricky par-4 8th, is from the left side, not too far from the 9th green. Perhaps this is a factor in the arrangements left of the 9th green (or perhaps not!?

Mark, your point 1, "It's a left-handers hole, the horizon line is higher on the left than right." is most fascinating. I don't think I've ever heard a hole analysed in this manner before. A most interesting observation.

Sean, spot on IMO, the area to the left side is certainly one that visually "suggests to me "safe area" from which it looks like getting up n down is very difficult". This is also a 'trick' that is used once again later on in the round at the splendid although longer par-3 17th hole.

atb
Title: Re: A links course par-3 as a one hole case study with pix - thoughts please?
Post by: Ally Mcintosh on August 02, 2014, 07:36:22 AM
It's what's happening behind the bunker on the left that doesn't suit my eye.

I don't know the course but I might be inclined to reinstate some of the native grasses back left and try and hide those wide, grass walkways a little better. this would give the rear dune a more cloaking feel the whole way around the green complex.

Interesting.  The wide area left suggests to me "safe area" from which it looks like getting up n down is very difficult.

Ciao

Wasn't left I was talking about Sean... Just back left paths (out of play from the hole)... It's an aesthetic issue, not a playability one.

looking at the site map shows this might be difficult though...