Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture Discussion Group => Topic started by: Mark Saltzman on January 10, 2014, 11:09:13 PM
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(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc430/SaltyLaw/Trump%20Doral/DSCN9380_zps16693e2e.jpg) (http://s1211.photobucket.com/user/SaltyLaw/media/Trump%20Doral/DSCN9380_zps16693e2e.jpg.html)
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc430/SaltyLaw/Trump%20Doral/DSCN9386_zps62f2513e.jpg) (http://s1211.photobucket.com/user/SaltyLaw/media/Trump%20Doral/DSCN9386_zps62f2513e.jpg.html)
A new centreline bunker 100 yards short of the green make 2nd shots far more interesting:
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc430/SaltyLaw/Trump%20Doral/DSCN9389_zps9e496e7f.jpg) (http://s1211.photobucket.com/user/SaltyLaw/media/Trump%20Doral/DSCN9389_zps9e496e7f.jpg.html)
A water hazard has been brought hard against the edge of the putting surface, which tilts sharply toward the hazard:
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc430/SaltyLaw/Trump%20Doral/DSCN9393_zps24b49946.jpg) (http://s1211.photobucket.com/user/SaltyLaw/media/Trump%20Doral/DSCN9393_zps24b49946.jpg.html)
Short par-4 2nd where the golfer must flirt with the bunkers on the right:
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc430/SaltyLaw/Trump%20Doral/DSCN9397_zpsb93716b8.jpg) (http://s1211.photobucket.com/user/SaltyLaw/media/Trump%20Doral/DSCN9397_zpsb93716b8.jpg.html)
Or face an awkward downwind pitch to a green sloping away:
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc430/SaltyLaw/Trump%20Doral/DSCN9400_zpsd232fd7f.jpg) (http://s1211.photobucket.com/user/SaltyLaw/media/Trump%20Doral/DSCN9400_zpsd232fd7f.jpg.html)
The par-4 3rd is as I remember it... extremely difficult with hazard running the entire right side. A remarkably difficult green awaits:
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc430/SaltyLaw/Trump%20Doral/DSCN9409_zps61e2eb88.jpg) (http://s1211.photobucket.com/user/SaltyLaw/media/Trump%20Doral/DSCN9409_zps61e2eb88.jpg.html)
With a predominant wind from the left, the 4th is a difficult par-3 with no real bailout:
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc430/SaltyLaw/Trump%20Doral/DSCN9414_zps6261266d.jpg) (http://s1211.photobucket.com/user/SaltyLaw/media/Trump%20Doral/DSCN9414_zps6261266d.jpg.html)
A tee shot up the left on the 5th is required to have any view of the flag:
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc430/SaltyLaw/Trump%20Doral/DSCN9419_zps768b619d.jpg) (http://s1211.photobucket.com/user/SaltyLaw/media/Trump%20Doral/DSCN9419_zps768b619d.jpg.html)
Flanking fairway bunkers at the 6th give way to a sharply angled green:
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc430/SaltyLaw/Trump%20Doral/DSCN9426_zps4c0c059f.jpg) (http://s1211.photobucket.com/user/SaltyLaw/media/Trump%20Doral/DSCN9426_zps4c0c059f.jpg.html)
An interesting tee shot at the very long par-4 7th. A series of bunkers cut into the fairway from the left, and challenging them is a must as tee shots right of centre will kick into a bunker or deep rough:
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc430/SaltyLaw/Trump%20Doral/DSCN9430_zpsb56e400a.jpg) (http://s1211.photobucket.com/user/SaltyLaw/media/Trump%20Doral/DSCN9430_zpsb56e400a.jpg.html)
With water short of the green, missing the fairway will likely mean a lay-up, though a well-played tee shot down the left rewards the golfer with an opportunity to run the ball onto the putting surface:
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc430/SaltyLaw/Trump%20Doral/DSCN9434_zps7baff3e2.jpg) (http://s1211.photobucket.com/user/SaltyLaw/media/Trump%20Doral/DSCN9434_zps7baff3e2.jpg.html)
The 8th is a massively changed hole, with the 8th green being moved some 50 yards to the left. The golfer must think his way around this hole as the more he bails out from the water, the more difficult the approach into the green:
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc430/SaltyLaw/Trump%20Doral/DSCN9437_zps82dc509d.jpg) (http://s1211.photobucket.com/user/SaltyLaw/media/Trump%20Doral/DSCN9437_zps82dc509d.jpg.html)
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc430/SaltyLaw/Trump%20Doral/DSCN9440_zps1445416e.jpg) (http://s1211.photobucket.com/user/SaltyLaw/media/Trump%20Doral/DSCN9440_zps1445416e.jpg.html)
The 9th has a new set of teeing grounds, located where the 8th green once was. Missing short is an option.
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc430/SaltyLaw/Trump%20Doral/DSCN9446_zpsdae19bb2.jpg) (http://s1211.photobucket.com/user/SaltyLaw/media/Trump%20Doral/DSCN9446_zpsdae19bb2.jpg.html)
Missing right, is not:
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc430/SaltyLaw/Trump%20Doral/DSCN9449_zps38199a58.jpg) (http://s1211.photobucket.com/user/SaltyLaw/media/Trump%20Doral/DSCN9449_zps38199a58.jpg.html)
A considerably shorter yardage and a much improved angle to avoid fairway bunkering on the lay-up are the rewards for the golfer brave (or foolish) enough to take on the left side. For reference, the white stake in line with the second bunker is a 235 yard carry from the blue tees:
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc430/SaltyLaw/Trump%20Doral/DSCN9450_zps742c2ce9.jpg) (http://s1211.photobucket.com/user/SaltyLaw/media/Trump%20Doral/DSCN9450_zps742c2ce9.jpg.html)
Bunkers along the right have a foreshortening effect as they hide much fairway short of the green. The green is very long, with a dip in its centre, and it wouldn't be a huge stretch to call it biarritz-esque:
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc430/SaltyLaw/Trump%20Doral/DSCN9455_zpsb1675f22.jpg) (http://s1211.photobucket.com/user/SaltyLaw/media/Trump%20Doral/DSCN9455_zpsb1675f22.jpg.html)
Hmmm, what line to take at the 11th? A massive bunker is both cross- and centre- line bunker and the golfer must choose whether to take it on, or play cautiously to the left:
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc430/SaltyLaw/Trump%20Doral/DSCN9458_zpsccd76264.jpg) (http://s1211.photobucket.com/user/SaltyLaw/media/Trump%20Doral/DSCN9458_zpsccd76264.jpg.html)
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc430/SaltyLaw/Trump%20Doral/DSCN9460_zps73671eaa.jpg) (http://s1211.photobucket.com/user/SaltyLaw/media/Trump%20Doral/DSCN9460_zps73671eaa.jpg.html)
The 12th, the longest hole on the course, is a 600+ yard par-5 made shorter by the usual tailwind. Like the tee shots on 6 and 14, this tee shot requires a straight drive between flanking bunkers. Failure to execute means there is little hope of reaching the green in regulation. Even the lay-up area is flanked by bunkers. Golfers content to leave a 150+ yard approach can play to the fairway's width, but those hoping for a wedge approach will need to challenge the narrowed portion of fairway.
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc430/SaltyLaw/Trump%20Doral/DSCN9466_zps011842c4.jpg) (http://s1211.photobucket.com/user/SaltyLaw/media/Trump%20Doral/DSCN9466_zps011842c4.jpg.html)
Difficult to see from the fairway, but the green extends well to the right offering a very challenging 'Sunday pin position'. I suspect the back-right pin well be seldom seen in regular resort play, but these types of pins are a great way to make a course more difficult for a tournament while not affecting playability on a daily basis.
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc430/SaltyLaw/Trump%20Doral/DSCN9469_zps6f40194b.jpg) (http://s1211.photobucket.com/user/SaltyLaw/media/Trump%20Doral/DSCN9469_zps6f40194b.jpg.html)
If a par-3 that plays 225 yards, uphill and with a cross wind was not difficult enough, Hanse has instated a sharp diagonal ridge that runs the length of the green.
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc430/SaltyLaw/Trump%20Doral/DSCN9472_zpsed8be5a7.jpg) (http://s1211.photobucket.com/user/SaltyLaw/media/Trump%20Doral/DSCN9472_zpsed8be5a7.jpg.html)
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Mark,
The pictures look great. From what it looks like the course looks even better.
With as many water hazards as there are, do you think the "retail golfer" will lose a fortune's worth of golf balls out there?
I love the 2nd hole, that bunker on the left (from what it looks like in the pictures) is just screaming for you to hit your drive over it, but it's the bunkers to the right that you should be flirting with.
I look forward to the rest of the thread.
Connor
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Connor,
Even with lots and lots of width, I found the course to be remarkably difficult. Like you said, water everywhere, but also many greens with unforgiving perimeters that run off into water/bunker and some pretty severe internal contours. There is usually an opportunity to tack your way around trouble, but heck, 'I didn't come all this way to lay up.'
There are some pretty severe features at Boston GC, but it felt like a golf course I would love playing everyday. I can't the same about Trump Doral. But that's not a negative (or at least, I don't mean it as one). It is a resort course most well-known for hosting a PGA Tour tournament. I think the renovations will prove to be successful on both of those fronts.
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I don't recall #8 and #9 being so radically different on the original plans. The drawings I saw had these holes being pretty much the same as before.
Were these changes made much later?
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Guys, is this the same GolfClubAtlas I joined a couple of years ago?
What am I missing? Yes its Hanse renovation, but the result is still a course that is flat, water on every hole, horribly palm lined, and quite overbunkered. The greens look like the only really nice part of the course. No comparisson to the results at LACC, Rustic Canyon etc...
Not writing this to critique Gil, I'm sure he did what he could to improve the course, but with such a site there is only so much you can do.
Looking at the pics I have zero desire to see or play this course.....
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(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc430/SaltyLaw/Trump%20Doral/DSCN9386_zps62f2513e.jpg) (http://s1211.photobucket.com/user/SaltyLaw/media/Trump%20Doral/DSCN9386_zps62f2513e.jpg.html)
As ever an interesting tour from Mark. Thank you for sharing it wish us. However, the photo above kinda highlights what I dislike about modern day golf. Just MO, others can love it if they wish.
atb
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(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc430/SaltyLaw/Trump%20Doral/DSCN9440_zps1445416e.jpg) (http://s1211.photobucket.com/user/SaltyLaw/media/Trump%20Doral/DSCN9440_zps1445416e.jpg.html)
At the risk of taking an unpopular stance, I actually think a long lined more regular shaped bunker (Rees Jones type or even an Augusta shape) would fit this landscape better. All the mowing lines and contouring are gentle and soft which to me appears somewhat incongruent with the busy shapes of the bunkers.
The row of perfectly spaced palm trees makes me want to barf.
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Guys, is this the same GolfClubAtlas I joined a couple of years ago?
What am I missing? Yes its Hanse renovation, but the result is still a course that is flat, water on every hole, horribly palm lined, and quite overbunkered. The greens look like the only really nice part of the course. No comparisson to the results at LACC, Rustic Canyon etc...
Not writing this to critique Gil, I'm sure he did what he could to improve the course, but with such a site there is only so much you can do.
Looking at the pics I have zero desire to see or play this course.....
Frank,
You asked, so let's go.
Doral is, and always was, a seminal Dick Wilson design on a flat wetland and sand property.Wilson was well known for his elaborate and expansive bunkering, often using them to visually disrupt the golfer when picking a strategic line of play. Wilson's blend of large and small greens, all with subtly difficult slopes and rolls, was in his day very cutting-edge. The wind is ever-present and plays an integral role in determining where to play each shot and, in some cases, even how the shot will roll out . I played the Blue many times as a kid in the late 60s and 70s and learned how to flight my ball on this property.
Ponds and lakes are necessary evils for Florida golf, serving as effective storm-water drainage and irrigation storage systems. They are ubiquitous and nary a single course in the state fails to bring a good number into play. Palm trees and mangrove are indigenous flora to the area and judging by the height of many on the property, have been there for 20-40yrs. They are taller and skinnier than wide and provide interesting, but highly-playable definitions of corridors. That was the DNA of this site long before Gil & Jim were hired to restore and renovate the Blue Monster. To their immense credit they choose to honor and restore the Wilson-features, instead of putting a heavier hand on the property.
Your comparisons to LACC & Rustic Canyon are ludicrous and their tone, borderline insulting. GCA is all inclusive and not limited to revetted pot bunkers found in Northern Europe. The land should and does dictate what type(s) of architecture are feasible. It is a talented and successful architect that adheres to such principle instead of bringing pre-conceived style and fixed ideas to the job. Trump gave Gil & Jim free reign to do most whatever they wanted and they choose a relatively minimal approach with the emphasis on mixing fun and authentic strategy into an iconic PGA tour stop. Such is the mark of thoughtful and intelligent architecture.
Callow knocks like yours, delivered on this site, serve only to dilute the constructive influence that GCA.com has brought to modern architectural practices and criticism. Maybe you can't stand the thought of Trump getting a wee bit of credit for choosing Gil & Jim (instead of oft-used others)? I don't know. Instead, I'll ask how would you feel if someone whose never set foot onto your work, harshly condemned it from a few photos?
It's certainly defendable to prefer one style over another. For sure, I'd rather put a peg in the ground in Mullen or Melbourne, but Miami is closer and offers something for my wife and kids. I'm sure Doral will do just find without your greens fee, but for the rest of us who find ourselves looking for enjoyable golf in Florida instead of the Netherlands, we'll look forward to playing this flat over bunkered, H2O laden, palm-infested place.
Cheers!
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I assumed at first that the ghastly fountain thingy was a photoshop joke.
Sadly I suspect it is not.
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A) I thought the fountain was the centreline bunker Mark referenced...strike one against me. Thomas Dai, I can assure you that I've not seen a similar fountain on any course I've played. Modern golf is safe. That fountain has nothing to do with golf. Is there a local rule if you hit it, a la power lines?
B) I interpreted Frank's question "Guys, is this the same GolfClubAtlas I joined a couple of years ago?" to be a call to commentary. The comments following Mark's photo tour were gentle and a bit empty. Frank, my response to that would be that it's early in the life of the thread and these photos don't give me enough of a perspective to comment, a la Steve Lapper's zen-infused comment/question "Instead, I'll ask how would you feel if someone whose never set foot onto your work, harshly condemned it from a few photos?"
C) Mark photographs golf courses as a service to others. He could be chasing cart girls AND shooting 73, or texting AND shooting 73, or wrestling gators AND shooting 73, but he chooses to snap a few images here and there. In this case, Doral Blue appears to be so expansive, with such anticipated changes, that there was no way that pictures while golfing would do it justice. I also suspect that different and elevated camera angles would have shown off more fairway options. Mark centered his attention on the bunkering.
D) Victoria Hills in Deland, Florida, is a wonderful golf course, with scrub brush and unkempt areas. Mr. Trump would never allow such brake on his courses, especially the one to be featured annually in a WGC event. To say that "Trump gave Gil & Jim free reign to do most whatever they wanted and they choose a relatively minimal approach with the emphasis on mixing fun and authentic strategy into an iconic PGA tour stop" is a bit suspect, or at least in need of a caveat. Doral Blue demands transit around the course, from television people to touring professionals and their entourage, from gallery denizens to resort guests. It's a stadium course, not a hidden gem uncovered and polished, far from the attention of the world.
E) Grant is not incorrect when he writes "All the mowing lines and contouring are gentle and soft which to me appears somewhat incongruent with the busy shapes of the bunkers." Mark, is there a mowing lines-versus-bunker shapes incongruency throughout the course?
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Ron,
Nice post. Victoria Hills is indeed a wonderful course (and little less emblematic of prototypical Florida golf). Back when I was doing the drive btw Orlando and Daytona, I'd always try to find some time to play there.
If you ask Gil & Jim, they'd say the Donald gave them free reign so long as they recognized that it remain a competitive and worthy PGA tour stop. I'd also wager a buck or two that they were thinking how to reinvigorate the property for the average player as well, and added/changed a few tees accordingly. Having seen their original plan drawings a few years back, and toured the property while under construction, it looked as if all of the principals were comfortable that they could achieve both.
I think you are right to describe it as a "stadium course," however when viewed alongside the remainder of the Wilson portfolio, it is once again a gem, albeit not uncovered and in need of polish. The real underrated Wilson gem lies a few miles north in Boynton Beach. There, Pine Tree (Hogan once called it "the best flat course he'd ever played") gets little of the attention it truly deserves.
I love to see Mark's photo tours…a great asset to GCA.com! Keep'em coming!
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1.Guys, is this the same GolfClubAtlas I joined a couple of years ago?
2.What am I missing? Yes its Hanse renovation, but the result is still a course that is flat, water on every hole, horribly palm lined, and quite overbunkered. The greens look like the only really nice part of the course. No comparisson to the results at LACC, Rustic Canyon etc...
3.Not writing this to critique Gil, I'm sure he did what he could to improve the course, but with such a site there is only so much you can do.
4.Looking at the pics I have zero desire to see or play this course.....
Frank.
with respect,.
1,Hopefully not-maybe there is a little less groupthink lately
2 .Did you expect the everglades to not be still flat? Did you think Trump asked for Rustic Canyon in tropical Miami at the site of a well known iconic Tour site designed by Dick Wilson? (I don't think Gil's charge was "value golf")
I would think a respected architect such as yourself would never consider drawing comparisons between rolling sites in the west to a dead flat site on reclaimed everglades, where there was already an architectural template with heritage and pedigree.(at least from fans, Tour players, and longtime hotel guests)
3. if there's "only so much you can do" ? why the critique? (I happen to think there's a lot he did do, and more importantly, a LOT he didn't do)
Disclaimer:I taught at Doral for 10 years in the winter, and quite a few of the changes at Doral were ones my friends and I often speculated about- esp. the changes at 1, 10, and 16 being the most frequently bantered about)
4.Doral is a well known Tour site, which for years heralded the beginning of spring for many, including the tour players after freezing on the west coast and often in the desert. People want to play well known, flashy places. (and yes see palm trees-the offensive line you are seeing the loudest is new and lining the new expanded driving range)
Most importantly, Doral has always been about warm weather in Dec-March-of course there are better places for the more sophisticated architecture aficionado to visit in the other 8 months.
Looking out my window,I'd love to be teeing it up there right about now ;) ;D
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Mark,
Nice pics! I had hoped to be the first to post here when I play next month...how silly of me to think someone wouldn't beat me to the punch.
Curious, difficulty notwithstanding, did you enjoy playing the course? It looks hard, but kind of fun, and I am looking forward to playing it, even though I am probably in the lose-a-dozen-balls crowd.
Steve,
I nominate your comments for an early post of the year in 2014.
Cheers,
Kevin
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Guys, is this the same GolfClubAtlas I joined a couple of years ago?
What am I missing? Yes its Hanse renovation, but the result is still a course that is flat, water on every hole, horribly palm lined, and quite overbunkered. The greens look like the only really nice part of the course. No comparisson to the results at LACC, Rustic Canyon etc...
Not writing this to critique Gil, I'm sure he did what he could to improve the course, but with such a site there is only so much you can do.
Looking at the pics I have zero desire to see or play this course.....
Frank,
I don't think Gil was going for the same aesthetic he produced at LACC/Rustic/Boston.
Overall, and especially having played the previous iteration, I think the results are phenomenal. You really do forget the site is flat while playing as you're presented with several challenging/heroic/penal shots and a majority of strategic/thought-provoking shots, and highly contoured greens whose tilt ties into the strategy of the holes.
Maybe my photos don't portray the course well, but I would urge you to see it for yourself. It's quite good.
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The 0.0001% of superlative golf courses on one of a kind sites that are praised here. They deserve it.
However there are so many properities that cannot possibly approach that ideal, what does the archie do on all the rest? The Trump Doral may represent that. It seems that Mr. Hanse & Mr. Wagner have take what is there and made a course with more definition to it. The 8th hole, for the Tour Pro, looks to be a much more demanding and better hole now.
As usual there are corollary threads having to do with purely manufacturered courses from dead flat sites with no views etc.
But that said, if I am going to Florida and spend serious $, Streamsong would be my destination.
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Mark,
Nice pics! I had hoped to be the first to post here when I play next month...how silly of me to think someone wouldn't beat me to the punch.
Curious, difficulty notwithstanding, did you enjoy playing the course? It looks hard, but kind of fun, and I am looking forward to playing it, even though I am probably in the lose-a-dozen-balls crowd.
Steve,
I nominate your comments for an early post of the year in 2014.
Cheers,
Kevin
Kevin,
Absolutely I enjoyed it! I don't know exactly what I shot, 78ish, maybe. I'm sure had I been losing balls every other hole I would have been a little frustrated. Very engaging course with no real let-up.
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E) Grant is not incorrect when he writes "All the mowing lines and contouring are gentle and soft which to me appears somewhat incongruent with the busy shapes of the bunkers." Mark, is there a mowing lines-versus-bunker shapes incongruency throughout the course?
Ron, I guess, I dunno. Didn't notice it while playing.
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Great photos. FL courses seem to have certain characteristics that have been outlined above, such as ample water hazards, wetland areas, extensive bunkering and flat terrain. Other than the fountain in the first photo, the course looks well done to me and fits in nicely with the surrounding environment. Thanks for posting the photos and look forward to seeing the back 9 at some point.
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Guys, is this the same GolfClubAtlas I joined a couple of years ago?
What am I missing? Yes its Hanse renovation, but the result is still a course that is flat, water on every hole, horribly palm lined, and quite overbunkered. The greens look like the only really nice part of the course. No comparisson to the results at LACC, Rustic Canyon etc...
Not writing this to critique Gil, I'm sure he did what he could to improve the course, but with such a site there is only so much you can do.
Looking at the pics I have zero desire to see or play this course.....
Frank,
I don't think Gil was going for the same aesthetic he produced at LACC/Rustic/Boston.
contoured greens whose tilt ties into the strategy of the holes.
+1
+1-love the idea of more tilt, and using it to compliment strategy
Mark,
On the 7th, can the left bunkers be carried?
Looks like a tough driving hole-was always a bit awkward.
Doral is one of the few older tour site properties where expansion was doable without creating a lot of walkbacks, and there's plaenty of width, despite bringing some of the playing areas nearer the water.
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I didn't see any malice in Frank's post either, but that doesn't mean people can't (vehemently) disagree! Not that I have any basis - I have never been to Doral - but I do plan to go and the pictures haven't dissuaded me (even with that fountain ;D)
Not to thread jack, but incidentally, Kelly, I played your absolutely wonderful course, Hideout, this past weekend, and have been meaning to post some pics somewhere and mention how much I enjoyed it. Yet, looking back at my pictures, even that course - which is so different than so many Florida courses - still has a decent amount of water, and is pretty flat. As such, I noticed that my pics just don't convey how cool and fun the course is.
Cheers,
Kevin
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Nicely put, Kelly.
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I did not see any malice in Frank Pont's post. Flat courses are difficult to photograph and convey any design integrity; certainly the hideous palm tree landscaping betrays what otherwise may be great golf design. Mark S. does a nice job in his commentary by giving snippets of information about the playing strategy. What is disappointing and typical of this site is most of the commentary focuses solely on what look the pictures portray rather than seeking more information about the strategy of each hole. Most here want to give opinions, few ask questions. There is a surprising lack of curiosity on threads like this; most people want to act like they get it, make positive comments and affirmations that they have no way of justifying, all in a way I guess to show solidarity with the favorite architects here. I see this manifested in the way Frank has been treated after his post.
Umm Kelly, I didn't see much malice in Frank's post either
He just doesn't like the pictures and this is the place for "Frank" ;D commentary, especially from a respected architect such as himself.
But he did ask what he was missing ;) ;D.
There have been multiple replies, and only one perhaps has more "malice" than Frank's post.
Perhaps that's the old GCA he refers to. It certainly used to be a much nastier place, despite what the revisionists would tell you.
If you do notice, I do comment in my second reply to Mark with a question, and comment on the tilt Mark highlights and its affect on strategy.
I think there is going to be plenty more for the architecturally minded to admire at Doral than there was before, while also keeping it relevant for their Tour event, which the hosting of has ALWAYS been their #1 marketing strategy .
I must say though Kelly, your disappointment at the commentary being directed at "what the pictures portray", is precisely why I took issue with Frank's critique.
I didn't see any thought provoking questions from Frank, just a blanket critique, and a stated opinion to "have no desire to see it or play there" which he is of course entitled to.
I think Mark will agree, a flat site is difficult to photograph, and Mark's pictures are taken while playing, showing a player's perspective, which doesn't always highlight perfect light and eye candy angles.
BTW, I think some form of the fountain has always been there
and it's called the "Blue Monster" , not the Green Kitten ;D ;D still has WAAAAAAY less water, and I'd venture far more width, than the much loved TPC Sawgrass course
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Kevin and Kelly (and Frank, of course)
Anyone who doesn't read a challenge into "Guys, is this the same GolfClubAtlas I joined a couple of years ago?" is numb. I like that Frank got to the point of his thread and asked me (and others) to sit back and consider exactly what we were seeing in the pictures and reading in the commentary.
I don't know if I'd call it "malice" but I would certainly call it a call to arms.
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KBM,
Are there any questions you want to ask about the strategy of certain holes? Happy to try to answer.
Jeff, re no. 7. Yes, very much so. 215 to carry on the shortest line from the 6700 yard blue tees. About 230 a little farther left. +60 yards from the tournament tees. The hole plays downwind, so if playing the right tees, the bunkers are carry able with a well hit drive. Like I said above, taking on the bunkers is very much a necessity if you want to hit the green in regulation.
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Mark,
How long does 8 play from tips and regular tees, now?
Is the drive as intimidating as the one on 18?
Does the new green site accept a shot bounced in from the right, or must a ball reach the putting surface through the air?
Thanks for your answers to these questions.
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Gents,
Since I am the likely unnamed soul with "more malice," I'd like to say I found no malice in Franks post either. Malice would have called for a more forceful response
,
Yet as a respected and accomplished architect who hasn't worked in South Florida( to the best of my knowledge) Frank's comment swere both "a call to arms" and disparaging in both tone and substance. His comparisons were feeble and his descriptions of the property I'll-informed and shameless, all derived from a handful of pictures. In other words, exactly what we shouldn't have as a reference point for an "architectural discussion" of a new and very public project.
Kelly, your call as to who "acts like they get it and make positive affirmations" is as speculative as it's assumption. As I said, I've played the course multiple times years back, studied Gil's drawings and walked the property while under construction, yet I won't opine on the finished product until I see and play it. Isn't that supposed to be fairest standard for any course review? I'm also sure-as-hell not exercising some sort of solidarity with Hanse&Co v. others. After all, aren't I best described as a JCU and KBM homer?? Many here and elsewhere didn't like things you did on some of your courses, but quite a few came around to seeing their value upon a round or two. When we set out to try to build Old Bridge together years back, the last thing we'd have appreciated back then would've been another architect (and not of the armchair division) trashing it from a few pix. Of course, though, an ornery displaced Texan and a strong-willed New Yorker would've dealt with it "Christie-style!" ;D
I agree that curiosity should replace judgement until experience permits. In fact, the old treehouse used to do a better job of that. Frank's post was something I felt strongly should be rebutted. This site is read too well and influences too many inside and outside of the business to watch it so swiftly devolve into a one-size-fits-all mentality for GCA.
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Guys, is this the same GolfClubAtlas I joined a couple of years ago?
What am I missing?
We'll get back to that later.
Yes its Hanse renovation, but the result is still a course that is flat,
It's SOUTH FLORIDA, barely 2 meters ASL, right next to an International Airport with FLAT 12,000' runways.
If you're a "minimalist" why would you want Gil to move dirt, ala Fazio ?
water on every hole,
The water was THERE before GIL was involved.
Do you know how many agencies and how difficult it is to move or eliminate existing water features in South Florida ?
horribly palm lined,
NOT REALLY.
Those palms and other trees will form a great barrier, visually blocking the industrial area that the course sits in the middle of.
and quite overbunkered.
WHY do you think it's over bunkered ?
Have you played DORAL, pre and post Gil's work ?
The greens look like the only really nice part of the course.
We're glad that you found something you like.
No comparisson to the results at LACC,
Had you played LACC North pre and post Gil's work ?
Would you compare the topography at LACC to TD ?
Rustic Canyon etc...
I wasn't aware that Rustic Canyon was a renovation, I thought it was an original.
Not writing this to critique Gil, I'm sure he did what he could to improve the course, but with such a site there is only so much you can do.
How many times have you played it that allowed you to formulate your judgement that Gil's efforts were severely limited by the site ?
Were you aware that when Doral originally opened up as a Dick Wilson design that it was highly regarded ?
Looking at the pics I have zero desire to see or play this course.....
Oh, so you haven't even set foot on the golf course, let alone played it ?
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Mark,
How long does 8 play from tips and regular tees, now?
Is the drive as intimidating as the one on 18?
Does the new green site accept a shot bounced in from the right, or must a ball reach the putting surface through the air?
Thanks for your answers to these questions.
Ron,
8 plays approx 500 yards from the tees I played, and 550 yards from the tips.
No, the drive is nowhere near as intimidating or difficult as the drive on 18. Yes, there is water left, but there is lots of width and unlike 18 does not need to be carried. The bigger challenge is avoiding a bunker on the right that eats well into the fairway's width about 235 yards from the tee.
In short, no, you're not bouncing it into the 8th green. It is a pretty clever green site though. The goal is always to be approaching from near the water as possible. From the tee, if you play down the extreme left portion of the fairway (nearest the water) you have an angle to the green that allows you to land the ball some 20(isn?) yards short of the green and run it onto the putting surface.
Similarly, when laying up, challenging the water hazard and playing farther left leaves a clear look at most of the green and allows you to play a pitch to the depth of the green (probably 40 yards deep) vs to the width of the green (probably 20 yards).
Bottom line is a tee shot in the fairway leaves plenty to think about for shots 2 and 3.
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I tend to agree with Frank above. The photos above (no offense to Mark) are pretty uninspiring. Of course that's based on photos alone. However it looks like a pretty basic Florida "championship" course with new fancy bunkers. It also looks like Gil reused a few of his tricks previously used at TPC Boston.
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It also looks like Gil reused a few of his tricks previously used at TPC Boston.
Since I know neither course from personal experience, PC, can you elaborate?
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I tend to agree with Frank above. The photos above (no offense to Mark) are pretty uninspiring. Of course that's based on photos alone. However it looks like a pretty basic Florida "championship" course with new fancy bunkers. It also looks like Gil reused a few of his tricks previously used at TPC Boston.
Those bunkers don't look any "fancier" than the ones Dick Wilson built, or the ones that were redone in previous renovations.
I don't know what a "Championship course" is ,but at most Florida courses of the era, the bunkers were off to the sides flanking the fairways.
These clearly are not.
Doral appears now to have many holes with options, strategy, tilt (which works with the strategy), width (which ,makes it user friendly and works with the strategy and centerline hazards)
The water was always there, but portions of the holes appear to have been moved merely closer to the water, leaving tremendous width on the safer side.
It seems many in the treehouse today are concerned more with aesthetics, texture, and off hole corridor views, which are of course part of the experience, but............
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My takeaways from this topic:
1. Thou shalt not insinuate that GCA members will laud anything done by Hanse (and Doak, CC... etc)
2. Most GCA members WILL laud anything based on little more than the name of the person doing the work
I have thick skin gents, have at it.
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My takeaways from this topic:
1. Thou shalt not insinuate that GCA members will laud anything done by Hanse (and Doak, CC... etc)
2. Most GCA members WILL laud anything based on little more than the name of the person doing the work
I have thick skin gents, have at it.
Greg,
It seems to me the criticisms from Frank at least were that it didn't look like(come out like?) more of Gil's work.
We're looking at pictures and evaluating the limited information we have
He's compared it to an original project on wildly different terrain, and and another renovation based on a different architect on completely different terrain, and both in a different climate.
I'd say if this work had been done by Jim Mclean or Ray Floyd I'd have the same reaction to the photos.
This is Doral, way South Florida, and Trump we're talking about, it's not like he's altering TOC ;) ;D
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Jeff,
Most of Wilson was long gone
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Jeff,
Most of Wilson was long gone
Pat,
I'm well aware of the history of Doral.
I said Hanse's bunkers didn't look any "fancier" than Wilson's original work, of which I've seen many,many photos from the early 60's, as well as what was left of his work when I played there in the early 80's.
In both cases I would be making that statement based mainly on photos.
and I would argue a lot of Wilson was left anyway, routing ,greensites, bunker placement etc.
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Jeff,
Most of Wilson was long gone
Pat,
I'm well aware of the history of Doral.
I said Hanse's bunkers didn't look any "fancier" than Wilson's original work, of which I've seen many,many photos from the early 60's, as well as what was left of his work when I played there in the early 80's.
In both cases I would be making that statement based mainly on photos.
and I would argue a lot of Wilson was left anyway, routing ,greensites, bunker placement etc.
Jeff,
Then you're arguing that the course that Gil altered was almost the same as Wilson's original course on opening day.
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Jeff,
Most of Wilson was long gone
Pat,
I'm well aware of the history of Doral.
I said Hanse's bunkers didn't look any "fancier" than Wilson's original work, of which I've seen many,many photos from the early 60's, as well as what was left of his work when I played there in the early 80's.
In both cases I would be making that statement based mainly on photos.
and I would argue a lot of Wilson was left anyway, routing ,greensites, bunker placement etc.
Jeff,
Then you're arguing that the course that Gil altered was almost the same as Wilson's original course on opening day.
Ssme routing, same greensites, some longer tees, bunkers in mostly same places
Ray Floyd bastardized it, but that was blown up without fanfare in house, and Jim McLean restored much of Wilson's work
but no doubt there were differences from the original, as there are at any course.
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Jeff,
The aerials from 1969 vs 2007 look remarkably similar. Here are 1961 and 1969 if you're interested:
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc430/SaltyLaw/Trump%20Doral/ScreenShot2014-01-11atSaturdayJanuary11201481904PM_zpsd45b838f.png) (http://s1211.photobucket.com/user/SaltyLaw/media/Trump%20Doral/ScreenShot2014-01-11atSaturdayJanuary11201481904PM_zpsd45b838f.png.html)
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc430/SaltyLaw/Trump%20Doral/ScreenShot2014-01-11atSaturdayJanuary11201481921PM_zps39a5ef08.png) (http://s1211.photobucket.com/user/SaltyLaw/media/Trump%20Doral/ScreenShot2014-01-11atSaturdayJanuary11201481921PM_zps39a5ef08.png.html)
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Mark
It looks as though they have doubled the amount of water hazards since its early days or is it opposite way around?
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Holes 10-13 added in opening post...
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I played it before and will play it again, but it's just too hard a course for me to enjoy.
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I played it before and will play it again, but it's just too hard a course for me to enjoy.
Funny,
I never thought of Doral as that hard with minimal OB and not too many water hazards (compared to most south Florida courses), despite its scary Blue Monster name.
Plenty of other South Florida courses scare me to death.
Mark,
that was always my feeling in the 30 years I've been going to Doral(minus the short lived Floyd bunker debacle)-Thanks for confirming that.
Great pictures 10-13 10 looks better-was always awkward best tee shot was 3 iron down left side before
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Guys, sorry for the late response, but I was at a funeral all day yesterday.
Let me start by stating that my previous posting in many ways did not come across as I intended, mostly because I was inaccurate in my writing (I am an engineer and English is not my first language :) ). Let me try to put things down more accurately:
1. I think Gil might be the best restoring architect on the planet, based on the many projects I have seen detailed pictures off and documents like the beautiful LACC one describing the before and afters. I said so much in a Christmas card I sent him last year, for what its worth. Given that I kind of dabble in the same area, I think that is a non trivial endorsement. Second any critique I might have of any of his work, would not be to further my own commercial ends, since I have none in the US.
2. I know south Florida is flat with a high water table. I live in Holland, which might be even flatter, with an even higher water table. I know what that means for building a golf course, having built 5 courses in the Netherlands. I also know that these circumstances make it very very difficult to produce a very good golf course, and probably impossible to make one that can compete with the best in the world. Unless you would blow up the site, like what happened at Streamsong, it is difficult to produce the undulations and landforms that make golf interesting, but blowing up a historic golf site like Doral obviously was not an option.
3. I know LACC and Doral occupy completely different landscapes. I had also seen pictures of both places before and after the renovations. What I wanted to say is that the before and after effect of the renovations were much positively obvious at LACC. Maybe that is because the original architecture that got restored at LACC was a few notches better and more interesting than at Doral, and therefore restoring it had more effect for me.
3. I am not familiar with Dick Wilsons work, like I am familiar with the US architects of the golden age. As such I cannot comment on if the restoration is sympathetic, but knowing Gil's competence I am sure it is well thought through.
4. Mark takes beautiful pictures, that show the golf course in a way that the golfer would experience when walking the course. I love his tours and frequently spend significant time going through them. My sincere thanks for all the time and effort he puts into it !! I run the site Golf Architecture PIctures.com, so I know how much time it takes to do these tours.
5. As an architect I have seen very many courses and their sites in person and on pictures. I know that pictures distort, and that they often do not show the real changes in altitude etc. I am therefore quite calibrated when I look at pictures to know what I can conclude from them and what not.
6. When I looked at the pictures, what I saw was a typical Florida golf course, with many elements I do not like in a golf course, namely lots and lots of water, symmetrical tree lined fairways, a large amount of very large bunkers etc. The one thing that caught my eye were the interesting undulations in the greens.
7. Even though this might be the only type of golf course that can be built ion such a flat and wet site, and the fact that Gil did a thoughtful and sympathetic restoration of the original Wilson course, in the end it still looks like a typical Florida course. If the begin ingredients are poor for golf, there is only so much even the best architect in the world can do. I judge a course by the end result, not by the many limiting boundary conditions that cause to be less than great.
7. What sparked my mail was reading Connors comment: "The pictures look great. From what it looks like the course looks even better ". Based on what I stated above I did not think that anybody on GCA would find the course looking "better than great". Obviously I was wrong, and have learned from that.
8. My worry is that GCA turns more and more in a "its all great" site. In the last few weeks alone I received several PM's from people stating their opinion on something I posted, explaining they could not put their (critical) opinions publicly on GCA. That way GCA becomes a PR site where all is well, all courses are "great", and as Max Behr already said in his well known 30's article nobody will learn anything anymore.
9. Maybe my main question would be one to Gil, namely why he was interested in a project like Doral. Given his skills there must be at least 50 classic courses in the US alone where the impact he could have had would have been much larger. Assuming he has more work than he can handle, why spend it on a place like Doral?
10. Thanks for the feedback you guys gave me, again it made me realise how inaccurate my initial post was. I hope this one was slightly better (there is only so much a Dutch speaking engineer can learn :) )
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It certainly looks a lot better than when I played it just after the Floyd (I think) renovation. Then it was just bout unplayable mainly due to silly carries over water and bunkers where you could only advance the ball a few yards forward due to the softness of the sand. Have to say it looks good now.
Jon
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While personally I'd probably make a beeline for Streamsong if going to Florida specifically for winter golf (hard to believe Streamsong is the value proposition in this context), I guess the relevant question is if one finds oneself in south Florida on business or family vacation, what other public options would you prefer to Doral?
Mark, what Saltzman rating would you give the course?
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Frank
Agree 100%
I always went to Doral to take a golf lesson, money well spent. I wish I had played Biltmore a Ross muni with a beautiful hotel. I think they renovated it 5 or 6 years ago. Clinton had stayed there and supposedly liked it. You could play Biltmore, lesson at McLean, and a round at Streamsong for one go around at the blue monster. The wind is such a great element there i must say I enjoyed seeing the flag stick practically sideways on the 18th green on my way to the lesson.
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Limited photos from limited perspectives tend to make analysis difficult.
Add to that the "Lightning Rod" nature of the developer and the tendency to divert ones focus to the ubiquitous fountain and it's easy to see why the product that has neither been seen or played gets panned.
Before passing judgement, good or bad, I think you have to consider the following.
1. What was the quality of the course previously occupying the site ?
2. What were the site constraints, physically and legally
3. What was the mission of the developer
4. Did the architect selected achieve the intended mission
5. What's the quality of the finished product in the context of the mission
6. What's the quality of the product overall, beyond the mission
7. How does it play for the broad spectrum of golfers
It would seem that prior to addressing the above 7 questions, one would have to be familiar with the old course, along with Trumps intentions, and that one would have to have played the new course a few times or more.
I'm not particularly enamored with the course in WPB, so I'm anxious to play a course that would seem to be a major departure from previous projects.
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Limited photos from limited perspectives tend to make analysis difficult.
Add to that the "Lightning Rod" nature of the developer and the tendency to divert ones focus to the ubiquitous fountain and it's easy to see why the product that has neither been seen or played gets panned.
Before passing judgement, good or bad, I think you have to consider the following.
1. What was the quality of the course previously occupying the site ?
2. What were the site constraints, physically and legally
3. What was the mission of the developer
4. Did the architect selected achieve the intended mission
5. What's the quality of the finished product in the context of the mission
6. What's the quality of the product overall, beyond the mission
7. How does it play for the broad spectrum of golfers
It would seem that prior to addressing the above 7 questions, one would have to be familiar with the old course, along with Trumps intentions, and that one would have to have played the new course a few times or more.
I'm not particularly enamored with the course in WPB, so I'm anxious to play a course that would seem to be a major departure from previous projects.
And here I thought this site was about #6 minus the last three words. ???
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Limited photos from limited perspectives tend to make analysis difficult.
Add to that the "Lightning Rod" nature of the developer and the tendency to divert ones focus to the ubiquitous fountain and it's easy to see why the product that has neither been seen or played gets panned.
Before passing judgement, good or bad, I think you have to consider the following.
1. What was the quality of the course previously occupying the site ?
2. What were the site constraints, physically and legally
3. What was the mission of the developer
4. Did the architect selected achieve the intended mission
5. What's the quality of the finished product in the context of the mission
6. What's the quality of the product overall, beyond the mission
7. How does it play for the broad spectrum of golfers
It would seem that prior to addressing the above 7 questions, one would have to be familiar with the old course, along with Trumps intentions, and that one would have to have played the new course a few times or more.
I'm not particularly enamored with the course in WPB, so I'm anxious to play a course that would seem to be a major departure from previous projects.
And here I thought this site was about #6 minus the last three words. ???
Greg,
That leads me to believe that you're totally unfamiliar with the mission and creation of Pine Valley
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Franks,
Thanks for the excellent clarification.......
To all who feel the site is becoming a loveall fest with no frank commentary
Could it possibly be that a few of the people who are defending the renovation (and make no mistake Frank, it is a renovation-not a restoration in most cases)
actually LIKED the course before, and ARE giving their frank opinions based on the limited pictures they see.
Or are at least willing to wait to pass judgement until after they've seen it in person, given that they already had a positive bias, and the pictures seem better than what was there before.
That doesn't mean those who dislike what they see aren't entitled to frank negative commentary.
But, they have to accept that others may disagree, and support their views when questioned-the same as someone who likes it should be prepared to support their positives views as well.
Big world out there.
One can like what Gil did at LACC, like Pinehurst in all versions, and still like the work at Doral-even if they'd rather play Streamsong or Mountain Lake. (preferring Steamsong to Doral though is a bit like not playing Tobacco Road because one prefers Harbour Town-they're about that close together)
Anyone ever read the reviews of Mark Rowlinson?
Ever see any nasty, snippy reviews?
But if you read carefully. you can see what he prefers,and where he thinks you should play, without all the nastiness.
This website in the early years was loaded with nastiness, all under the guise of of "frank commentary", but usually by poorly traveled, ill informed opinionated individuals with the most dangerous thing out there----a little bit of knowledge
Hating Doral, Rees Jones courses, or Trump projects (and I will admit to this bias occasionally) doesn't make you smarter than everybody else, it just means you have a differing opinion than someone else who does like one or all of these things.
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Pat,
I am sure there are many reasons why the course isn't great, but to be honest I am not really that interested in it.
When browsing this site I am looking for lessons to be learned from great golf courses & great restorations/renovations.
I get excited by the pics of the "sïmple and inexpensive"work at Carne, I do not get that feeling looking at the "expensive" end product of Doral, even if there are thousand mitigating factors that cause it.
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Pat,
I am sure there are many reasons why the course isn't great, but to be honest I am not really that interested in it.
How do you know it's NOT GREAT ?
When browsing this site I am looking for lessons to be learned from great golf courses & great restorations/renovations.
And you base your ability to learn lessons on just 21 photos of the golf course, some of which are redundant ?
That's a rather unique evaluative process.
I get excited by the pics of the "sïmple and inexpensive"work at Carne,
I do not get that feeling looking at the "expensive" end product of Doral, even if there are thousand mitigating factors that cause it.
So, you would have NO INTEREST in LIDO and YALE, two of the most expensive projects ever embarked upon in their time ? ? ?
Is it Trump or the golf course that's at the heart of your discontent ?
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Limited photos from limited perspectives tend to make analysis difficult.
Add to that the "Lightning Rod" nature of the developer and the tendency to divert ones focus to the ubiquitous fountain and it's easy to see why the product that has neither been seen or played gets panned.
Before passing judgement, good or bad, I think you have to consider the following.
1. What was the quality of the course previously occupying the site ?
2. What were the site constraints, physically and legally
3. What was the mission of the developer
4. Did the architect selected achieve the intended mission
5. What's the quality of the finished product in the context of the mission
6. What's the quality of the product overall, beyond the mission
7. How does it play for the broad spectrum of golfers
It would seem that prior to addressing the above 7 questions, one would have to be familiar with the old course, along with Trumps intentions, and that one would have to have played the new course a few times or more.
I'm not particularly enamored with the course in WPB, so I'm anxious to play a course that would seem to be a major departure from previous projects.
And here I thought this site was about #6 minus the last three words. ???
Greg,
That leads me to believe that you're totally unfamiliar with the mission and creation of Pine Valley
Are you saying that Pine Valley's greatness lies only within the context of the mission at hand during its creation?
-
Limited photos from limited perspectives tend to make analysis difficult.
Add to that the "Lightning Rod" nature of the developer and the tendency to divert ones focus to the ubiquitous fountain and it's easy to see why the product that has neither been seen or played gets panned.
Before passing judgement, good or bad, I think you have to consider the following.
1. What was the quality of the course previously occupying the site ?
2. What were the site constraints, physically and legally
3. What was the mission of the developer
4. Did the architect selected achieve the intended mission
5. What's the quality of the finished product in the context of the mission
6. What's the quality of the product overall, beyond the mission
7. How does it play for the broad spectrum of golfers
It would seem that prior to addressing the above 7 questions, one would have to be familiar with the old course, along with Trumps intentions, and that one would have to have played the new course a few times or more.
I'm not particularly enamored with the course in WPB, so I'm anxious to play a course that would seem to be a major departure from previous projects.
And here I thought this site was about #6 minus the last three words. ???
Greg,
That leads me to believe that you're totally unfamiliar with the mission and creation of Pine Valley
Are you saying that Pine Valley's greatness lies only within the context of the mission at hand during its creation?
Greg,
Only a moron with impaired reading comprehension skills would ask that question.
Go back and reread my reply.
If you still can't answer your own question, have someone explain the answer to you, as it's obvious to all but you.
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Pat: in addition to your 7 questions, I would maybe add one more: how does the finished product compare to other options in the area?
If you're visiting Miami, want to play golf, and don't have a connection at Indian Creek, then I would say playing Doral Blue seems like a pretty good option.
I like the Biltmore, but don't like their cart-only policy before 10am.
I've also read somewhere that Hanse is working on other courses at Doral as well, so perhaps future work will focus more on playability and fun, without having to be up to the standard of being a "test" for tour pros.
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Pat: in addition to your 7 questions, I would maybe add one more: how does the finished product compare to other options in the area?
If you're visiting Miami, want to play golf, and don't have a connection at Indian Creek, then I would say playing Doral Blue seems like a pretty good option.
I like the Biltmore, but don't like their cart-only policy before 10am.
I've also read somewhere that Hanse is working on other courses at Doral as well, so perhaps future work will focus more on playability and fun, without having to be up to the standard of being a "test" for tour pros.
Kevin,
I hope he can achieve that on the other courses, but the corridors are SO much narrower on the other courses, I wonder how he makes them more playable and fun without filling in water.(Red and Gold anyway-haven't seen the McLean redo of the Silver but the corridors were crazy small there also)
the corridors are/were very wide at the Blue, and I always found that the MOST playable.
If they could improve the other courses at Doral, it would make the resort more attractive as the other courses have always been very bad and ball eaters, especially since the white course (which used to actually be playable) and par 3 course were bastardized by the Great White Debacle.
I don't think Trump bought the White course, but I could be wrong
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Thanks Jeff, that's interesting that the other courses are more narrow.
On the Trump Doral web site, it lists the Blue, White, Red, McLean and Gold courses, so I assumed those were all owned by the Donald.
It also says this about Red, I am guessing this is the other one Hanse is working on? I've never been there so can't guess at what they are doing.
THE RED COURSE
Effective July 1st, 2013, the Red Course will be closed for play in preparation for a complete re-design scheduled to commence in 2014. Stay tuned for further details regarding the redesign scope.
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Thanks Jeff, that's interesting that the other courses are more narrow.
On the Trump Doral web site, it lists the Blue, White, Red, McLean and Gold courses, so I assumed those were all owned by the Donald.
It also says this about Red, I am guessing this is the other one Hanse is working on? I've never been there so can't guess at what they are doing.
THE RED COURSE
Effective July 1st, 2013, the Red Course will be closed for play in preparation for a complete re-design scheduled to commence in 2014. Stay tuned for further details regarding the redesign scope.
Unless Donald bought about a 100 condos and/or fills in 50 acres of lakes, hard to see anything good coming out of the Red.
I hope I am wrong.
I say kudos to Hanse, who is in demand, for taking on the work, because it will be a challenge.
This is where I potentially disagree with Frank, who said he can't learn anything from such a project.(of course he may well be right, but I hope not)
I'd say producing a worthwhile course from what's there would be a hell of an education.-for someone, as well as the golf world.
Can't all be sandy sites, dunes, and minimalism
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Pat: in addition to your 7 questions, I would maybe add one more: how does the finished product compare to other options in the area?
Kevin, in terms of courses other than local private courses, I don't think the options, from a quality of golf course perspective, are attractive.
There's so much tourist traffic in Miami, from Europe, Central and South America, and from the U.S.
Lot's of hotels, but no meaningful outlet for the guests.
IF, gambling is approved, Trump Doral would make an excellent site for a casino given the proximity of the Airport and Interstates.
I always thought that with the multiple courses at Doral, that he's assign usage to each one.
1 Private
2 Hotel
3 Casino & Resort
4 Public
About two weeks ago I asked someone very close to the Donald, what was going to happen with Doral, given his enormous investment in the property. The answer I received. "Don't worry about Donald, he knows what he's doing."
I don't think he purchased Doral on the blind.
If you're visiting Miami, want to play golf, and don't have a connection at Indian Creek, then I would say playing Doral Blue seems like a pretty good option.
I'd agree and I'd extend that to the greater Miami/Miami Beach area.
I like the Biltmore, but don't like their cart-only policy before 10am.
I've also read somewhere that Hanse is working on other courses at Doral as well, so perhaps future work will focus more on playability and fun, without having to be up to the standard of being a "test" for tour pros.
I would imagine that he's got multi-use intended for the complex's courses.
Jeff,
I'd agree
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Limited photos from limited perspectives tend to make analysis difficult.
Add to that the "Lightning Rod" nature of the developer and the tendency to divert ones focus to the ubiquitous fountain and it's easy to see why the product that has neither been seen or played gets panned.
Before passing judgement, good or bad, I think you have to consider the following.
1. What was the quality of the course previously occupying the site ?
2. What were the site constraints, physically and legally
3. What was the mission of the developer
4. Did the architect selected achieve the intended mission
5. What's the quality of the finished product in the context of the mission
6. What's the quality of the product overall, beyond the mission
7. How does it play for the broad spectrum of golfers
It would seem that prior to addressing the above 7 questions, one would have to be familiar with the old course, along with Trumps intentions, and that one would have to have played the new course a few times or more.
I'm not particularly enamored with the course in WPB, so I'm anxious to play a course that would seem to be a major departure from previous projects.
And here I thought this site was about #6 minus the last three words. ???
Greg,
That leads me to believe that you're totally unfamiliar with the mission and creation of Pine Valley
Are you saying that Pine Valley's greatness lies only within the context of the mission at hand during its creation?
Greg,
Only a moron with impaired reading comprehension skills would ask that question.
Go back and reread my reply.
If you still can't answer your own question, have someone explain the answer to you, as it's obvious to all but you.
At the risk of being branded a moron for the ages and one dumb enough to ask you to elaborate one of your one liner throw- aways I will sit back and allow you to explain to me along with the others who apparently need no explanation.
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Pat,
Yes, exactly my point - people shouldn't be comparing Doral to LACC or Bandon, they should be comparing it to other options in Miami, which are poor. For instance, Miami Beach Golf Club is a crappy muni that charges $200 per round. It also shouldn't be comared to Streamsong, which is a destination resort attracting buddies trips, and is about as close to Miami as Boston is to Philadelphia.
I don't know whether Doral Blue will be good, or great, or ok, or lousy, but based on what I've seen, it's certainly worth a try when I'm in Miami Beach with my wife next month.
Oh, and I also heard from friends in Miami right after the Donald bought it that they assumed he would have a casino there.
Kevin
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Kevin,
It would seem as if Doral remains a work in progress rather than a completed project.
I'd be curious to know what others would consider a viable alternative in the greater Miami area.
Greg,
Are you aware of what the "mission" was at Pine Valley ?
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Pat,
Viable alternative? Having seen most of the courses in the area (Indian Creek and Boca Rio excluded), I would say Trump Doral Blue Monster is the best course within a 50 mile radius.
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Mark
Thanks for the pictures. I spose what the photos show is not surprising and I fall heavily in the Frank Pont camp. Doral doesn't look anywhere near interesting enough for me to travel and fork out the dough.
Frank's comments get back to differentiating between the design and the final product. It could well be that Hanse did a cracking job with Doral. This is something I can't answer and very few can because not many people know enough about design and particular projects to opine beyond a superficial level. That said, the site will always be a major consideration in determining the quality of the product and this seems to be an obvious handicap for Doral. On the other hand, a lot of people like this sort of thing so what the hell - live and let live. The important thing is folks are offering opinions and we must all try to remember that slagging a course is not nearly the same thing as slagging an archie. If one doesn't care for the look of a course what does it matter who designed it or why the design is as it is?
I also don't see a problem with comparing any golf courses. Golf, all golf, has a lot more in common than not and it is only our lack of imagination and skill which prevents a well reasoned and entertaining comparison of any two courses. Sure, Doral may stack up well in FLA, but what does that really mean in terms of its quality?
Ciao
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Mark
Thanks for the pictures. I spose what the photos show is not surprising and I fall heavily in the Frank Pont camp.
Doral doesn't look anywhere near interesting enough for me to travel and fork out the dough.
Maybe that speaks to your inability to detect quality architecture through photo analysis
Frank's comments get back to differentiating between the design and the final product. It could well be that Hanse did a cracking job with Doral. This is something I can't answer and very few can because not many people know enough about design and particular projects to opine beyond a superficial level.
And yet, despite admitting that you don't know enough about the design of this particular project you did opine by stating:
Doral doesn't look anywhere near interesting enough for me to travel and fork out the dough
That said, the site will always be a major consideration in determining the quality of the product and this seems to be an obvious handicap for Doral.
Then how was Dick Wilson able to craft a highly regarded golf course ?
How was also able to craft another great course on an almost perfectly flat site in designing Pine Tree ?
On the other hand, a lot of people like this sort of thing so what the hell - live and let live.
What "sort of thing" ?
The important thing is folks are offering opinions and we must all try to remember that slagging a course is not nearly the same thing as slagging an archie. If one doesn't care for the look of a course what does it matter who designed it or why the design is as it is?
A look based on all of 21 photos, some of which are redundant ?
I also don't see a problem with comparing any golf courses.
Don't you think the comparison should occur AFTER you've actually seen and played them ?
Golf, all golf, has a lot more in common than not and it is only our lack of imagination and skill which prevents a well reasoned and entertaining comparison of any two courses.
How about a total lack of information based on a lack of first hand experience in seeing and playing the golf course ?
Sure, Doral may stack up well in FLA, but what does that really mean in terms of its quality?
How would your statement above apply to Seminole or Pine Tree or Boca Rio ?
Don't you think that one should play a course before commenting on it's merits or demerits ?
And, since when are courses in Florida "second class citizens" ?
I guess, when you know absolutely nothing about golf courses in Florida, it's easy to make ignorant, reckless statements.
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Pat
As usual, your post is full of sideline drivel and misses the mark on the two points of the post. You even struggle to discern between questions and statements. Get your act together man or stand down and stop wasting my time.
I am very happy to make a call on whether a course interests me based on many photos. Its only me who loses out of I am wrong. No reason to get your nose bent out of shape with that call. There is a big difference between design quality and course quality. No reason to get your nose bent out of shape with that call either.
What exactly is your beef, or is that post your green fix for the day? If your response is more line by line green, don't bother as I won't respond that nonsense again.
Ciao
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Pat
As usual, your post is full of sideline drivel and misses the mark on the two points of the post.
My comments are spot on.
You don't have a clue when it comes to analyzing Gil's work at Doral and you don't have a clue as to the quality of the finished product.
And, you don't have a clue about the quality of golf courses in Florida
You even struggle to discern between questions and statements.
The only thing I struggled with was how someone so unfamiliar with a golf course could make such definitive statements.
Get your act together man or stand down and stop wasting my time.
My "act" was together before you were born
I am very happy to make a call on whether a course interests me based on many photos.
"Many" ? 21 photos, some of which were redundant .
Truly, you're architectural intellect is dizzying.
Its only me who loses out of I am wrong. No reason to get your nose bent out of shape with that call.
Sure there is.
You "dissed" the course on a public forum without ever setting foot on it
There is a big difference between design quality and course quality.
Are you telling us that a great design doesn't inherently produce a great golf course and that a poor design doesn't produce a poor golf course ?
Please explain the "big difference"
No reason to get your nose bent out of shape with that call either.
I didn't, I just pointed out the inadequacies in your post
What exactly is your beef, or is that post your green fix for the day?
My "beef" is that you, never having set foot on the property, and totally unfamiliar with golf courses in Florida, have made definitive statements about both.
If your response is more line by line green, don't bother as I won't respond that nonsense again.
I really don't care what you do.
Was the above sentence meant to discourage me from responding ?
If so, like your opinion of Doral, it didn't resonate with me.
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Pat,
We are not talking about Pine Valley or its "mission" but I will galdly listen(read) as the master spins his tale (or perhaps tail) explaining to we unlearned few.
This site is about discussing the merits of the final product. It does not matter who did the work, what the constrainter were or were not... etc. Is it good or not?
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I am curious as if anyone knows how many natural water hazards (ponds/small lakes) were on the Blue course before Wilson built it? Did he add any, and how many were there before construction?
thanks
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I am curious as if anyone knows how many natural water hazards (ponds/small lakes) were on the Blue course before Wilson built it? Did he add any, and how many were there before construction?
thanks
While I don't know the exact number you seek, I'm fairly sure none were added and several existing ones were expanded or shifted a bit.
Cheers
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I am curious as if anyone knows how many natural water hazards (ponds/small lakes) were on the Blue course before Wilson built it? Did he add any, and how many were there before construction?
thanks
It was everglades-so it was all lake during the rainy season, not so much in dry season.
If you go west of Doral a few miles, you can see the process in action.
Anywhere that's not pushed up artificially in that area floods, so lakes were dug to create fill for land
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I am curious as if anyone knows how many natural water hazards (ponds/small lakes) were on the Blue course before Wilson built it? Did he add any, and how many were there before construction?
thanks
While I don't know the exact number you seek, I'm fairly sure none were added and several existing ones were expanded or shifted a bit.
Cheers
Steve, actually, if you look at the aerial one earlier than the 1961 (pre-construction), there are appears to have been no water on site.
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Pat,
We are not talking about Pine Valley or its "mission" but I will galdly listen(read) as the master spins his tale (or perhaps tail) explaining to we unlearned few.
Greg,
"YOU", and YOU alone brought up Pine Valley, in your reply # 54, NOT ME.
This site is about discussing the merits of the final product. It does not matter who did the work, what the constrainter were or were not... etc. Is it good or not?
"Good" for whom ?
A narrow slice of the golfing spectrum or the entire spectrum ?
Don't you bother to read what you type ?
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I am curious as if anyone knows how many natural water hazards (ponds/small lakes) were on the Blue course before Wilson built it? Did he add any, and how many were there before construction?
thanks
While I don't know the exact number you seek, I'm fairly sure none were added and several existing ones were expanded or shifted a bit.
Cheers
Steve, actually, if you look at the aerial one earlier than the 1961 (pre-construction), there are appears to have been no water on site.
When I played it frequently (with the Kaskels : the owning family and sons who were golf teammates of mine) in the early and mid 70s, there were plenty of water hazards to contend with. I'm sure they served at least three purposes: irrigation holding ponds; storm water drainage areas; and playing hazards.
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I am curious as if anyone knows how many natural water hazards (ponds/small lakes) were on the Blue course before Wilson built it?
There were NO natural bodies of water on the property prior to Wilson's efforts.
It was all farmland and scrub.
Did he add any, and how many were there before construction?
Wilson added EVERY water feature that's on the property.
None were there before Wilson.
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So my next question is for Golf Construction/Arch guys
So going with Doral prior to being built not having any ponds/lakes, could Wilson have built a wide creek flowing through the course and emptying to a pond/lake on the out skirts of the routing? Grading it to flow into the lake off the routing. Are the water tables to low to do this? I understand that he needed dirt to make tees and greens. Would a large creek and pond off routing be enough to use as irrigation and allow for a flooding drainage? Last but not least, with water being a natural prevailing feature in Florida, do you think that Doral using a lot of water hazards impacted future Florida designs because it was a tour stop and had TV viewership?
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Bcowan,
Well the Blue Monster would've sure been a funny name
Pat
Re:those farms/grazing areas-there were plenty left on the outskirts when I began coming to Doral.
Dry in the winter-under water in the summer/early fall
From the air flying into Miami, much of the everglades don't look like ponds or lakes either.
The Everglades not called the River of Grass for no reason
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So my next question is for Golf Construction/Arch guys
So going with Doral prior to being built not having any ponds/lakes, could Wilson have built a wide creek flowing through the course and emptying to a pond/lake on the out skirts of the routing?
Where would the water in the creek come from ?
Are you now going to second guess Wilson's work at Doral ?
Grading it to flow into the lake off the routing.
With the property being a constant 2' ASL, how would you accomplish this, and at what cost ?
Are the water tables to low to do this? I understand that he needed dirt to make tees and greens.
The dirt usually came from the excavated ponds
Would a large creek and pond off routing be enough to use as irrigation and allow for a flooding drainage?
NO
Last but not least, with water being a natural prevailing feature in Florida, do you think that Doral using a lot of water hazards impacted future Florida designs because it was a tour stop and had TV viewership?
NO
Many courses in Florida obtained the dirt for fairways, tees and greens by excavating ponds, ergo their creation.
In addition, ponds served as irrigation reservoirs, and were necessary.
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Pat
Re:those farms/grazing areas-there were plenty left on the outskirts when I began coming to Doral.
Dry in the winter-under water in the summer/early fall
Jeff,
Doral and the area surrounding Doral was NEVER underwater in the summer.
The area to the west, as you approached the Everglades was prone to rising water, but not Doral and the nearby area.
That was farm and nursery land
From the air flying into Miami, much of the everglades don't look like ponds or lakes either.
The Everglades shouldn't be confused with dry farm land and nurseries.
The approach and climb corridors extend into the Everglades, and that's what you see when flying in and out of Miami.
The Everglades not called the River of Grass for no reason
Understood, but, the Everglades has nothing to do with Doral.
There were roads all around the property that became Doral, even roads to the west.
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So my next question is for Golf Construction/Arch guys
So going with Doral prior to being built not having any ponds/lakes, could Wilson have built a wide creek flowing through the course and emptying to a pond/lake on the out skirts of the routing?
Where would the water in the creek come from ? The same place it comes from the existing water features.
Are you now going to second guess Wilson's work at Doral ?Asking Const/Arch guys if Wilson had other options!
Grading it to flow into the lake off the routing.
With the property being a constant 2' ASL, how would you accomplish this, and at what cost ?It costs money to build ponds/lakes, asking if building a graded creek is economically feasible.
Are the water tables to low to do this? I understand that he needed dirt to make tees and greens.
The dirt usually came from the excavated pondsIt can come from a creek and a pond/lake off the routing, can it not?
Would a large creek and pond off routing be enough to use as irrigation and allow for a flooding drainage?
NOI'll wait to see if any who build courses see if it is possible.
Last but not least, with water being a natural prevailing feature in Florida, do you think that Doral using a lot of water hazards impacted future Florida designs because it was a tour stop and had TV viewership?
NOYour opinion, not saying it is wrong
Many courses in Florida obtained the dirt for fairways, tees and greens by excavating ponds, ergo their creation.
In addition, ponds served as irrigation reservoirs, and were necessary.Why can't man made wide creeks provide the same for reservoirs. (I know courses that pump out of natural creeks for irrigation). I asked if the ponds could be built off the routing in which dirt could be used to build tees and greens and a man made creek could empty into the pond off the routing.
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So my next question is for Golf Construction/Arch guys
So going with Doral prior to being built not having any ponds/lakes, could Wilson have built a wide creek flowing through the course and emptying to a pond/lake on the out skirts of the routing?
Where would the water in the creek come from ? The same place it comes from the existing water features.
Surely, you understand the difference between a "retention" pond and a flowing waterway.
Are you now going to second guess Wilson's work at Doral ?Asking Const/Arch guys if Wilson had other options!
Of course he had options, and he chose the options that best suited his purpose, his mission.
Grading it to flow into the lake off the routing.
With the property being a constant 2' ASL, how would you accomplish this, and at what cost ?It costs money to build ponds/lakes, asking if building a graded creek is economically feasible.
If you understand the process by which lakes were excavated, to depth, and the soil used to create fairways, tees and greens, you'd be able to understand that the lakes/ponds were built at the same elevation.
A large, wide creek, such as the one you proposed, would require constant elevation from the point of inception to the terminus, a far more costly and difficult process,, as they'd have to buy fill.
Are the water tables to low to do this? I understand that he needed dirt to make tees and greens.
The dirt usually came from the excavated pondsIt can come from a creek and a pond/lake off the routing, can it not?
NO, because there's NOT enough of it.
Didn't you look at the 1961 aerial ?
At 2' ASL, wouldn't you want to elevate the fairways, tees and greens.
Would a large creek and pond off routing be enough to use as irrigation and allow for a flooding drainage?
NOI'll wait to see if any who build courses see if it is possible.
You can wait as long as you want.
I have experience with building/renovating courses in South Florida and understand the problems with water/soil and adequate retention ponds.
Creeks are worthless in terms of the retention of adequate volumes.
Last but not least, with water being a natural prevailing feature in Florida, do you think that Doral using a lot of water hazards impacted future Florida designs because it was a tour stop and had TV viewership?
NOYour opinion, not saying it is wrong
It's an opinion based upon golf course construction in South Eastern Florida over the last 60 years.
Many courses in Florida obtained the dirt for fairways, tees and greens by excavating ponds, ergo their creation.
In addition, ponds served as irrigation reservoirs, and were necessary.
Why can't man made wide creeks provide the same for reservoirs.
Because they can't provide the volume of water that is provided by large retention ponds that are 20, 30 and 40 feet deep.
And, where are you going to get the water for a constantly running creek ?
Remember, you stated that it only rains 3.4 inches in the winter in South Florida.
(I know courses that pump out of natural creeks for irrigation).
Would you show us where those natural creeks are located close to Doral.
I asked if the ponds could be built off the routing in which dirt could be used to build tees and greens and a man made creek could empty into the pond off the routing.
That's always possible, but, it's more expensive to move dirt from greater distances, such as the perimeter to the center.
And, permiting to build ponds close to the border of the property may have been an issue.
But, it's interesting to see you second guessing Wilson, an architect who produced great work in Florida.
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I think it's time to re-read the annual message from Ran.
::)
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With five (5) golf courses and each one using an average of 100,000,000 gallons of water per year, that's half a billion gallons a year that Doral would require.
Hard to store that much water in a stream.
Large, deep retention ponds, such as the ones that Wilson created are the ay to go.
In addition, on a flat property, the introduction of ponds became an integral component of individual hole design.
Is not # 18 on the Blue course not a perfect example ?
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So going with Doral prior to being built not having any ponds/lakes, could Wilson have built a wide creek flowing through the course and emptying to a pond/lake on the out skirts of the routing? Grading it to flow into the lake off the routing. Are the water tables to low to do this? I understand that he needed dirt to make tees and greens. Would a large creek and pond off routing be enough to use as irrigation and allow for a flooding drainage?
BCowan,
I would assume the original site was intermittently wet.
Therefore the fill from the ponds was required to bring the tees, greens and fairways up high enough to always be dry.
A creek generates hardly and fill compared to the mass volume those lakes generated.
Therefore the ponds were essential to building a course.
Being directly in play is a separate question to debate....
Do you think that Doral using a lot of water hazards impacted future Florida designs because it was a tour stop and had TV viewership?
No, water table dictated the need for fill for golf and housing
Therefore lakes are required to generate enough volume for development.
Once again, being directly in play is a separate question to debate....
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Thank You Ian.
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Ian,
The original site was not intermittently wet, unless, it rained ;D
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Nice work from Gil, but it just goes to show you cannot turn Chicken sh*& into Chicken salad by throwing money at it.
Still a penal golf course with penalty created by adding water and huge bunkers, simply not my style of architecture at all.
I wouldnt bother crossing the road to play it.
That is in no way a slam on the course or the work that has been done on it, I just dont see what i so clever about creating a course like this.
Water to me is he cheapest, simplest and least attractive way there is in creating a hard golf course.
I understand that you can only do so much with a piece of land, totally accept that.
Perhaps that is why I play so little golf in Florida.
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Michael, did you read my brief hole descriptions. While the golf course is difficult, it is absolutely NOT penal architecture.
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8. My worry is that GCA turns more and more in a "its all great" site. In the last few weeks alone I received several PM's from people stating their opinion on something I posted, explaining they could not put their (critical) opinions publicly on GCA. That way GCA becomes a PR site where all is well, all courses are "great", and as Max Behr already said in his well known 30's article nobody will learn anything anymore.
This is a good point.
Not sure why positive opinions formed from simply looking at pictures & reading text are any more valid than negative ones based on the same information. Obviously we should keep the degree of experience in mind when weighting the opinions others post, but if someone doesn't like something and explains why, no problem that I see.
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Mark
Indded and I thought the descriptions were great.
For what the land gives, I think the architect{s} have done a good job over the years but to me the overuse of lakes makes it penal..after all it is an automatic two shot swing.
That is what I mean by penal, penal to the scorecard.
I would much rather see the inventive use of more subltle creeks/streams instead of wide lakes, same penalty but more room fro error.
That is just what my eye sees, huge bunkers on one side of a fairway and lakes on the other is to me not very inventive or the kind of architecture I find apealing or clever.
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Not sure why positive opinions formed from simply looking at pictures & reading text are any more valid than negative ones based on the same information.
I don't think anyone advanced that concept.
Obviously we should keep the degree of experience in mind when weighting the opinions others post, but if someone doesn't like something and explains why, no problem that I see.
Like "fact based" medicine, "fact based" architectural evaluations should be based on more than 21 random photos, some of which are redundant.
Actually walking or playing the course should be the minimal requirement.
Those who played the Pre-Hanse renovation can assess the merits of the renovation and those who only played the post-Hanse work should evaluate the course on it's merits or demerits, but offering an opinion on a public forum, based solely on viewing limited photos isn't fair to Gil, Trump and all involved with the project.
Let the proof be in the tasting, and not in personality conflicts
[/quote]
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I had the pleasure of playing Trump Doral's new Blue Monster this morning. A few observations.
- the course is FANTASTIC. Fairly generous, undulating fairways, but with oceans of sand that all comes right into play. The greens are massive. Conditioning near perfect. Lots of water, but it didn't seem to come into play as much as you see it - at least not stupidly. There is almost always room to steer clear of it if you desire, or you can take a more daring line.
- let me mention the bunkers again: they are terrific, both visually striking and making every hole interesting. I also think they look better in person than in the pictures
- the caddies were great (and one was quite colorful)
- the place is a massive construction zone at the moment. As a result not everything is running like clockwork. You need to park at the spa and walk or be carted over to the course. There are no bathrooms near the pro shop/1st tee as the new clubhouse is being built. I assume this will all be worked out in due haste
- I saw the Donald on 15 scouting out locations for a new (longer) tee
- the course was a ton of fun to play for a mid handicapper like myself, but I also got the sense that it is just going to make an awesome stage for the tour event. I know the Cadillac is already a WGC, but I bet the tournament goes up in prestige with the renovation
- it is expensive. I was prepared for this. That said, I thought it was bush league to charge me $15 for valet parking after the cost of the round.
- this will, without a doubt, be my go to spot when in Miami
- the fountain actually isn't as bad as it looks in the pictures!
- I am writing this from South Beach while drinking a margarita. Say what you want about how the course looks, but this seems a lot better than being in snowy New York today!
Just my two cents.
Kevin
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Kevin D,
I'm anxious to play it especially after your experience.
Agree on the $ 15 valet charge
Was the course fast and firm and how were the greens in terms of pace and responding to spin ?
Put another way, what kind of pitch marks did approach shots make ?
How long did it take you to drive from South Beach to Doral ?
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Kevin D,
I'm anxious to play it especially after your experience.
Agree on the $ 15 valet charge
Was the course fast and firm and how were the greens in terms of pace and responding to spin ?
Put another way, what kind of pitch marks did approach shots make ?
How long did it take you to drive from South Beach to Doral ?
Pat,
You will not be disappointed. I went as a single, but was paired with three terrific guys, and we all loved the place.
The course played fairly fast and firm. Not National in August firm (ok, I haven't actually experienced that, but am guessing), but run up shots are certainly possible - if you don't have a bunker blocking you. My iron shots were making small-ish marks, and I hit a VERY high ball.
You will also enjoy the fact that the WIND has great effect on the course - more so than it felt. Yardages played drastically longer or shorter depending on which way the wind was blowing.
In the early morning (I left at 6am), it took me about 25 minutes (or even less) to get from the W to the course. Probably 30 or so getting back after noon. For now at least, you pull into the spa entrance, valet your car, and can either take a cart or walk over to the course (5 min walk). Breakfast doesn't really start until 7, so if you are playing early I would grab something elsewhere.
I would love to hear your reaction when you play it. I liked it so much I am considering heading back tomorrow.
By the way, one other point I failed to mention - the Red course is totally torn up. They are doing a complete redo. Not sure if that will be Hanse as well or not. When you think about an owner with deep pockets and a ton of land in a top winter destination, this place has the potential to be a very, very exciting golf resort.
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Kevin,
With it's proximity to the airport I wonder how much it will compete with and harm Streamsong ?
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Kevin,
If you don't mind me asking, what is cost of a round at the Blue Monster? I have looked on the website and cannot find it.
Edit: finally found the green fee.
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Pat - it's close to the airport, maybe 10 minutes. That said, I don't think it will take much, if any, business from Streamsong. I think Doral Blue is great, but it's VERY expensive, and the golf is still not terribly different from what most east coasters know. Streamsong, being links like (despite not being on water) is so different, I see it as more of a pure golf destination, and is better value (though it is also expensive, just less so). But the new Doral will provide a much needed option for those going to Miami, and I think most staying at top Miami Beach hotels (or, say, the Mandarin in town) won't blink at the high prices. Frankly, I was just hoping for something passable (as you know, the bar here for public golf is low) and instead I got something terrific.
I'm playing again tomorrow morning ;D
Rees - it's $450 plus taxes and tip for caddies.
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Pat,
We are not talking about Pine Valley or its "mission" but I will galdly listen(read) as the master spins his tale (or perhaps tail) explaining to we unlearned few.
Greg,
"YOU", and YOU alone brought up Pine Valley, in your reply # 54, NOT ME.
This site is about discussing the merits of the final product. It does not matter who did the work, what the constrainter were or were not... etc. Is it good or not?
"Good" for whom ?
A narrow slice of the golfing spectrum or the entire spectrum ?
Don't you bother to read what you type ?
While my reading comprehension might well be lacking I think you are the one who introduced Pine Valley into this discussion. Either that or the final two words in your reply #50, which I believe came before my reply #54, are code for something else.
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Greg,
It was your uninformed reply # 49 that triggered my reply # 50.
Context Greg, context.
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Greg,
It was your uninformed reply # 49 that triggered my reply # 50.
Context Greg, context.
Pat, You introduced Pine Valley into the discussion and then stated otherwise. Period. Now lay some bold, 18 pt green words on me.
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OK, I played the course again this morning. Still a big fan. That said, a few more observations/advice for those playing:
- Like Forrest Gump's box of chocolates, you never know what playing partner you'll get at Doral. Yesterday's fun round with some great guys and golfers in the true sense of the word was a delight. Today I got a couple guys who, while well intentioned, were wearing Nike sneakers, didn't have the slightest clue about the rules or etiquette, and were SLOW. Like, 10 shots in a bunker and not picking up slow. So, if you can bring your own foursome, I would advise it - there are more people willing to pay the freight to play Trump's new course than I thought.
- Same deal for caddies. Yesterday's were terrific, today...let's say there's a learning curve being climbed
- Also, since some of these people will be ahead of you on the course, play as early as possible (I realize this is not different than at any prominent daily fee course)
- I have been thinking about Pat's Streamsong vs. Doral comment. In part, due to encountering people like above, I think Doral will take little, if any, play from SS. SS will get the golf/GCA fanatics, and is just so different than 99% of what's out there that it will continue to have strong pull for a long time. I know that for me, not having been to Bandon, nor have I played UK links courses, it was like stepping onto another planet last year (and again in 3 weeks!). I was just awestruck. Doral, on the other hand, is more typical Florida golf - but it's typical Florida golf done really, really well, probably the best I've seen (note: I have not played Indian Creek or Seminole). Doral strikes me as less of a "buddies" golf destination than SS, and more of a place that you can get away to for a fantastic round while in Miami with the family or on business
- The above statement may be amended if Trump gets a casino there...then Doral becomes a HUGE buddies/bachelor party destination (which, granted, may actually lower the average caliber of player)
- One more note on the bunkers. I don't know why I didn't realize it the first time, but they could have been laid out by Tillinghast himself. Or Tillinghast on steroids? Doral Blue is sort of like Bethpage Black's (or from what I've seen in pictures, Winged Foot West's) Florida cousin. Bunkers everywhere, all HUGE
- Looking forward to playing again next year, as well as seeing on TV next month