Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture Discussion Group => Topic started by: Thomas Dai on December 27, 2013, 11:27:56 AM
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Some highly regarded and much praised courses have holes that are inferior or weaker than the rest of the holes on their otherwise splendid course.
A couple of examples that come to my mind are -
the 16th hole at Royal Dornoch
holes 17 and 18 at Royal Portrush
I'd be interested to know what folk herein would do to these holes in order to improve them (assuming that is, you think they need improving).
All the best
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Thomas
Well, I think the finish at Portrush is unfortunate, but the holes themselves are alright, just in the wrong place in the round.
What do you do about 16 Dornoch? At least the hole is unusual.
I would name TOC's 9th as a lame hole.
Ciao
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Thomas,
I rather liked the 16th at Royal Dornoch. I played it twice, both times into a strong wind. I thought it was eminently playable. The fairway is tremendously wide, and there is room to go left to avoid the two bunkers on the right. It's a mighty poke up the hill, but there is plenty of space to hit your shot...can run it on, miss short, right, or left. It's a brute, but I found it enjoyable.
One hole I thought was lacking on a great course is the 18th at The Golf Club (I had pictures, but my computer was re-formatted and I lost them all). It's a medium-length par 4 with the second shot all carry over a pond to a slender green. The pond is fronted by a stone wall that zig-zags right and left...it's the first thing I noticed when I reached my tee ball. Looked very strange to me. And a second shot par 4 all over water is awfully one-dimensional and therefore short of options in my opinion.
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12 at Pebble Beach is a pile of steaming hot garbage.
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Strange, I have always liked the 16th at RD but never thought much of the 10th (maybe this will change if Rich teaches me the bounce it over the bunker shot ;))
I will be interesting to see what a difference the changes have made but I would say that the 9th at TOC falls into this category.
Jon
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Thomas, I think that is an interesting question and certainly agree with David's nomination for #18 at The Golf Club. I would also throw out 5-7 holes at Pebble Beach - which begs another question (and not trying to highjack your thread) – what course has the highest differential between "world class" and "inferior" holes? That is, what course(s) is considered great even though they have a number of pedestrian holes? For me, the answer goes back to Pebble Beach. I think #4-10 are amazing/very good along with #18 and to a lesser extent #17 – but #1, #2, #11, #12, #13, #15, & #16 are only good at best and for some perhaps less than good...
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Crystal Downs #17 is the poster child for this category. I think it was put there intentionally to provide a reality check so you realize just how great the other 17 holes are... ;)
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12 at Pebble Beach is a pile of steaming hot garbage.
While that sentiment prevails on this site, I don't understand. Why?
Bogey
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Perfection is not achievable in golf. Connector holes were a necessity in classic design. Variety and the flow of a good routing demand a mix of holes of different levels of difficulty, making the aggregate greater than the sum of the individual holes. Tom Fazio is perhaps best known for his efforts to design courses with 18 "signature" holes, and how well regarded is he on this site?
Candidates: #10 at my beloved CPC, #1 at Riviera, Yale #18.
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To build on Lou's connector hole post below I would nominate two modern courses:
8 at Boston GC
3 at French Creek
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The 2nd and 11th holes on TOC.
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#4 on Lake Merced (San Francisco). Long par-4 where the average golfer is hitting off a downhill lie to a very uphill green that is guarded almost completely by a front bunker. The green is severely sloped back to front and putting from above the hole is a very difficult
(impossible ;)) task.
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The longer I've been around, the less these "inferior" holes tend to weigh on my evaluation of a course. Nearly always, they add to the variety and pacing of the course in question, if nothing else.
Plus, some of the holes nominated as "inferior" are not inferior at all. It is the minds of their critics that are inferior.
The real question is, how many great and very good holes does a course have?
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The 2nd and 11th holes on TOC.
?!!
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The longer I've been around, the less these "inferior" holes tend to weigh on my evaluation of a course. Nearly always, they add to the variety and pacing of the course in question, if nothing else.
Plus, some of the holes nominated as "inferior" are not inferior at all. It is the minds of their critics that are inferior.
The real question is, how many great and very good holes does a course have?
I always wondered which was more important to architects--a course having more good/great holes or fewer mediocre/bad holes.
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12 at Pebble Beach is a pile of steaming hot garbage.
While that sentiment prevails on this site, I don't understand. Why?
Bogey
It's a nice section of land with good elevation change. It could have produced something really nice. And the basics are there. A green that falls away from the tee. A yardage that allows for a club that makes it hard to judge how much the ball will run out when it lands. Unfortunately, the execution just sucks. There's basically no room to run the ball on, which sorta defeats the whole purpose of a front-to-back green for me. The green is too shallow. It's a pure hit-and-hope shot. And yeah, I guess 17 has some similarities, but at least the front side of 17's green is fairly accessible and the rear section tempts you to hit a stupid shot. There's no temptation on 12. The right play is to always fire at the flag, since for the average player the only chance of stopping a decently struck shot is to hit the flagstick.
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The longer I've been around, the less these "inferior" holes tend to weigh on my evaluation of a course. Nearly always, they add to the variety and pacing of the course in question, if nothing else.
Plus, some of the holes nominated as "inferior" are not inferior at all. It is the minds of their critics that are inferior.
The real question is, how many great and very good holes does a course have?
I always wondered which was more important to architects--a course having more good/great holes or fewer mediocre/bad holes.
JM: I try really hard not to build any mediocre / bad holes. I would rather change my routing and give up a great hole if it meant that I could eliminate all the mediocre holes.
However, I don't like to judge others' courses that way, especially when it is all a matter of opinion whether a hole is "mediocre" or "good".
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TD,understood.
Architects,obviously,look at golf courses differently than laymen wannabes.Most of us only see holes through the prism of our own games.I like to think architects can see the bigger picture.
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#6 at Olympia Fields North
#16 at Chicago Golf Club
#1 and #18 at Shoreacres
#18 at Fishers Island
#7 at Prairie Dunes
#1 at Pebble Beach
#18 at SFGC
Pedestrian holes on great courses IMO
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18 at Ballybunion is a jarring conclusion to the round. I have never thought carefully about how it could be fixed, the Sahara bunker might have to go.
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17 at Bandon Dunes and 5 and 18 at Whistling Straights are other obvious choices.
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Crystal Downs #17 is the poster child for this category. I think it was put there intentionally to provide a reality check so you realize just how great the other 17 holes are... ;)
Sorry Jud. I have to strongly disagree with that statement.
Any club from a driver to 5 iron works on the drive depending on how bold and committed you are. The skyline green is dramatic and appealing. Now that the white cinder block "house" on the hill right of the hole is gone, what's not to like??
Ken
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The 2nd and 11th holes on TOC.
?!!
They fit Thomas's premise by dint of their being improved. (My point being: don't be so sure what's not good and therefore in need of 'improvement.')
The longer I've been around, the less these "inferior" holes tend to weigh on my evaluation of a course. Nearly always, they add to the variety and pacing of the course in question, if nothing else.
Plus, some of the holes nominated as "inferior" are not inferior at all. It is the minds of their critics that are inferior.
The real question is, how many great and very good holes does a course have?
On behalf of Wethered & Simpson, thank you.
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Crystal Downs #17 is the poster child for this category. I think it was put there intentionally to provide a reality check so you realize just how great the other 17 holes are... ;)
Sorry Jud. I have to strongly disagree with that statement.
Any club from a driver to 5 iron works on the drive depending on how bold and committed you are. The skyline green is dramatic and appealing. Now that the white cinder block "house" on the hill right of the hole is gone, what's not to like??
Ken
Ken,
It's been beaten to death elsewhere so I don't really want to reopen a can of worms. I get that members who've played the hole hundreds of times may have a soft spot for it's uniqueness and challenge. To most everyone else it's just a bit of a headscratcher. Maybe it's really a poster child for why awkward connectors should be par 3's and not 4s and 5s in a routing. I know Tom's going to go to his deathbed defending the hole, one just gets the impression that if it were on most any other course he might not be quite so generous.
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The real question is, how many great and very good holes does a course have?
Some very interesting thoughts and a good point made above, but alternatively how many top quality holes does a course need to have to be considered great? 18? 17? 16? 15?.......and thus does the presence of a weaker or inferior hole(s), irrespective of whether or not it's a connector hole, diminish the stature of an otherwise highly regarded course?
ATB
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17 at Bandon Dunes and 5 and 18 at Whistling Straights are other obvious choices.
Jud, Why no love for 17 at Bandon Dunes? I find it pretty frightening on the approach shot with a North wind and the danger lurking on the right and short. Green is pretty good- tee shot is not anything special. I agree with WS choices.
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does the presence of a weaker or inferior hole(s), irrespective of whether or not it's a connector hole, diminish the stature of an otherwise highly regarded course?
ATB
Thomas
What if their presence improved the course's stature, at least for people who wanted to play the course more than a couple of times?
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17 at Bandon Dunes and 5 and 18 at Whistling Straights are other obvious choices.
Jud, Why no love for 17 at Bandon Dunes? I find it pretty frightening on the approach shot with a North wind and the danger lurking on the right and short. Green is pretty good- tee shot is not anything special. I agree with WS choices.
Well, for starters it's my least favorite hole on my least favorite course at the resort. I just find it unnecessarily penal in the strong winds that blow often in the summer, particularly for a higher handicap player. It may have been a necessary evil of the routing, but that doesn't make it a good hole IMO.
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12 at Pebble Beach is a pile of steaming hot garbage.
While that sentiment prevails on this site, I don't understand. Why?
Bogey
It's a nice section of land with good elevation change. It could have produced something really nice. And the basics are there. A green that falls away from the tee. A yardage that allows for a club that makes it hard to judge how much the ball will run out when it lands. Unfortunately, the execution just sucks. There's basically no room to run the ball on, which sorta defeats the whole purpose of a front-to-back green for me. The green is too shallow. It's a pure hit-and-hope shot. And yeah, I guess 17 has some similarities, but at least the front side of 17's green is fairly accessible and the rear section tempts you to hit a stupid shot. There's no temptation on 12. The right play is to always fire at the flag, since for the average player the only chance of stopping a decently struck shot is to hit the flagstick.
Hard to argue with that when you put it in the context of what might have been. However, there's a hint of "it's not fair"in your criticism and heaven knows that you don't play that card on this website.
bogey
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18 at CPC is the classic one that's often brought up, and is why more than one person has called CPC "the greatest 17 hole course in the world."
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#6 at Olympia Fields North
#16 at Chicago Golf Club
#1 and #18 at Shoreacres
#18 at Fishers Island
#7 at Prairie Dunes
#1 at Pebble Beach
#18 at SFGC
Pedestrian holes on great courses IMO
Jack-I am a fan of Fishers Island 18th. A classic half par hole with a pretty difficult green especially if you are above the hole and sited expertly at the terrains high point. It should provide plenty of excitement in match play and not be a card wrecker.
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does the presence of a weaker or inferior hole(s), irrespective of whether or not it's a connector hole, diminish the stature of an otherwise highly regarded course?
ATB
Thomas
What if their presence improved the course's stature, at least for people who wanted to play the course more than a couple of times?
Mark - no problem at all. One mans meat is another mans poison and all that. Many things in golf tend to be subjective not objective. I did note your earlier reference to the 2nd and 11th at TOC! Improvements (sic)?
I raised this topic and highlighted these particular two courses as I recently sat in on a discussion comparing the two courses, the outcome of which was that Dornoch was the superior course as it only had one weaker hole whereas Portrush had two, although I do reckon Sean makes a pertinent point when he states in relation to the 17th and 18t at Royal Portrush that their positioning in the round is unfortunate, for the holes themselves are alright, simply in the wrong place in the round (and back-to-back as well).
I'm still not convinced by the 16th at Royal Dornoch though. Wonderful view from the top of the ridge/green but surely an Archie somewhere can suggest a better way to play from the 15th green to the 17th tee?
Tenby is another course that attracts comment comparing the majority of holes within the main body of the course and 'the other three over the railway line'. Not necessarily (?) 'bad' holes in themselves, but they all come back-to-back and at the end of the round when so much unforgettable loveliness has come beforehand. If the exact same holes were positioning at different points in the round with 'better' holes in between would they still be seen in the same manner?
ATB
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Brian,
I don't think the hole fits very well with what come before it. Of course what comes before it, in my opinion, is some of the most inspiring golf on the planet. I do agree with your point that it is not a ball buster requiring brute force; it's not a terrible hole, it just doesn't resonate like the others, and to me it feels a bit out of place.
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#3 and #18 at Scioto
#3, #5, and #8 at Inverness
#9 and #18 at Naples National
#17 at UofM
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12 at Pebble Beach is a pile of steaming hot garbage.
While that sentiment prevails on this site, I don't understand. Why?
Bogey
It's a nice section of land with good elevation change. It could have produced something really nice. And the basics are there. A green that falls away from the tee. A yardage that allows for a club that makes it hard to judge how much the ball will run out when it lands. Unfortunately, the execution just sucks. There's basically no room to run the ball on, which sorta defeats the whole purpose of a front-to-back green for me. The green is too shallow. It's a pure hit-and-hope shot. And yeah, I guess 17 has some similarities, but at least the front side of 17's green is fairly accessible and the rear section tempts you to hit a stupid shot. There's no temptation on 12. The right play is to always fire at the flag, since for the average player the only chance of stopping a decently struck shot is to hit the flagstick.
Hard to argue with that when you put it in the context of what might have been. However, there's a hint of "it's not fair"in your criticism and heaven knows that you don't play that card on this website.
bogey
There's a fine line between "hit and hope" and "unfair." It's the same hole for everybody, so it's inherently "fair." It just isn't much fun, and the fact that you're just hoping the ball stops somewhere on that shallow platform means it isn't very interesting either. Pebble's best holes make you want to hit the heroic shot even when there's a much simpler and higher percentage option available. On 12, there is only the heroic shot and that missing element of temptation is glaringly obvious in the context of the rest of the course. Even that would be okay, though, if the heroic and option-free shot were a good and dramatic one. Something that really gets the blood flowing, like 17 at Sawgrass or the 5th at Pine Valley. But instead, it's just kind of a mundane affair with poor visual appeal and the result is that even a great shot just doesn't feel all that satisfying. On that front, you can compare it against the approach to 14 - equally hit-and-hope and equally treacherous, but this time flying over a gigantic bunker with a ridiculously scary looking green. Seeing the ball land up top is a thrill on 14, while seeing a ball hit the green at 12 is just... it's okay I guess.
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#6 at Olympia Fields North
#16 at Chicago Golf Club
#1 and #18 at Shoreacres
#18 at Fishers Island
#7 at Prairie Dunes
#1 at Pebble Beach
#18 at SFGC
Pedestrian holes on great courses IMO
Jack-I am a fan of Fisher's Island 18th. A classic half par hole with a pretty difficult green especially if you are above the hole and sited expertly at the terrains high point. It should provide plenty of excitement in match play and not be a card wrecker.
Tim, I just find it anticlimactic after 17 incredible holes- I agree the green complex is very good. If you noticed 3 of my choices were 18 th holes- I like to finish with a strong hole- ie Oakmont for instance,Riviera or Merion.
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Crystal Downs #17 is the poster child for this category. I think it was put there intentionally to provide a reality check so you realize just how great the other 17 holes are... ;)
Sorry Jud. I have to strongly disagree with that statement.
Any club from a driver to 5 iron works on the drive depending on how bold and committed you are. The skyline green is dramatic and appealing. Now that the white cinder block "house" on the hill right of the hole is gone, what's not to like??
Ken
Ken,
It's been beaten to death elsewhere so I don't really want to reopen a can of worms. I get that members who've played the hole hundreds of times may have a soft spot for the its uniqueness and challenge. To most everyone else it's just a bit of a headscratcher. Maybe it's really a poster child for why awkward connectors should be par 3's and not 4s and 5s in a routing. I know Tom's going to go to his deathbed defending the hole, one just get's the impression that if it were on most any other course, he might not be quite so generous.
Jud,
I know the 17th was beat to death in the "Connector Holes" thread a few months ago. I still stand by my comments and feel it's one of the better holes on the course. It's a very unique use of the existing topography and I love the flow through to 18.
Ken
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12 at Pebble Beach is a pile of steaming hot garbage.
How so ?
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The real question is, how many great and very good holes does a course have?
Some very interesting thoughts and a good point made above, but alternatively how many top quality holes does a course need to have to be considered great? 18? 17? 16? 15?.......and thus does the presence of a weaker or inferior hole(s), irrespective of whether or not it's a connector hole, diminish the stature of an otherwise highly regarded course?
ATB
I reckon you are shooting way over the mark. 2 or 3 top quality holes is quite unusual and I would think easily enough to push a course into possible great territory so long as the remaining holes aren't a mess. I often cite TOC's 9th because its a bland hole hole in a bit of a bland patch. TOC is the course which breaks most rules in terms of greatness and it is easy to see why many don't buy into the legend. There is much of a front 9 which falls miles short of great and if truth be told, is rather much of a muchness. But TOC does have the few remarkable holes which more than make up for its many, many faults. Its hard to point to one hole anywhere which will significantly drag down a course, but I am always suspicious when folks defend an obviously inferior hole in the name of...well whatever excuse is made for a poor hole. Only a misguided lover of all that is TOC could believe the 9th a good hole, especially when compared to the properly great holes on the course.
Ciao
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Some highly regarded and much praised courses have holes that are inferior or weaker than the rest of the holes on their otherwise splendid course.
A couple of examples that come to my mind are -
the 16th hole at Royal Dornoch
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The dislike for 16 at RDGC is certainly a recurring theme. I like the hole and never felt it deserved to be singled out in this way, but it continually is. More discussion about this from a dozen years ago: http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php?topic=5156.20
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17 at Bandon Dunes and 5 and 18 at Whistling Straights are other obvious choices.
What did you do at BD? Quit after 17?
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JCrisham,
You have to remember that the 18th hole, designed in the era of "match" play, was often an irrelevant hole, since most matches had been concluded by # 18, therefore, on the courses built by the ODG's you can't employ a medal plan mentality when evaluating the 18th hole.
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17 and 18 at Machrihanish
7 at Royal Dornoch is a much more ordinary hole than 16 IMO
I think 11 at TOC is one of the best par 3s I've ever played, and I'm not a huge fan of the course (#9 all the way)
Jack, I prefer 16 at Chicago to #9
7 at Shinnecock should go the way the rest of CBM's work there.
I thought 11 at Cypress was the most ordinary on an otherwise spectacular course.
The approach to #14 at Pebble is shameful.
18 at Yale is awful. It is my understanding that money was short at the end and the fairway was not modified as was intended. What's left is a very difficult hole to play if you've never seen it.
9 at Kingsley. As Arnold Palmer would say, it's the best hole of it's kind.
18 at Pacific Dunes is not very consistent with the rest of the course. I feel I'm in a gully.
8 at the Dunes Club. I don't like long holes (par 4s or 5s ) that takes driver out of the bag on the tee.
If Beverly has a week hole, it's 13.
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12 at Pebble Beach is a pile of steaming hot garbage.
How so ?
(http://pixelsmashers.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2011/09/Tiger-Woods-Facepalm.jpg)
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17 at Bandon Dunes and 5 and 18 at Whistling Straights are other obvious choices.
17 is still a good hole, it used to play much tougher and was a very good hole 10 years ago.
18 is the clunker on BD, especially given that it bats cleanup.
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17 and 18 at Machrihanish
7 at Royal Dornoch is a much more ordinary hole than 16 IMO
I think 11 at TOC is one of the best par 3s I've ever played, and I'm not a huge fan of the course (#9 all the way)
Jack, I prefer 16 at Chicago to #9
7 at Shinnecock should go the way the rest of CBM's work there.
I thought 11 at Cypress was the most ordinary on an otherwise spectacular course.
The approach to #14 at Pebble is shameful.
18 at Yale is awful. It is my understanding that money was short at the end and the fairway was not modified as was intended. What's left is a very difficult hole to play if you've never seen it.
9 at Kingsley. As Arnold Palmer would say, it's the best hole of it's kind.
18 at Pacific Dunes is not very consistent with the rest of the course. I feel I'm in a gully.
8 at the Dunes Club. I don't like long holes (par 4s or 5s ) that takes driver out of the bag on the tee.
If Beverly has a week hole, it's 13.
I would be interested in seeing the reference to there being a shortage of money compromising the construction of the 18th hole at Yale. The land was donated and the construction budget was $400,000 which was a huge amount of money in the 1920's. It has to be one of the most unique and awe inspiring holes that Mac/Raynor ever built. Most of the haters have their cards wrecked on this hole. ;)
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Tenby is another course that attracts comment comparing the majority of holes within the main body of the course and 'the other three over the railway line'. Not necessarily (?) 'bad' holes in themselves, but they all come back-to-back and at the end of the round when so much unforgettable loveliness has come beforehand. If the exact same holes were positioning at different points in the round with 'better' holes in between would they still be seen in the same manner?
ATB
Tenby was the example I had in mind.
The problem with the the three 'bastard' holes at Tenby is not so much that they are inferior, more that they are totally alien to the rest of the course. Fifteen fantastically old-fashioned links holes are interrupted by three modern parkland holes at 15, 16, and 17. Put these holes on a bog-standard inland course in suburbia and they would be fine; they just don't work at Tenby.
The daft thing is that there is room for at least two holes on the linksland by the clubhouse now used as a practice area. I'm sure a par 3 could also be squeezed in somewhere out in the dunes to make up the numbers, leaving the farmers' field now used for golf as a decent practice ground...
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#6 at Olympia Fields North
#16 at Chicago Golf Club
#1 and #18 at Shoreacres
#18 at Fishers Island
#7 at Prairie Dunes
#1 at Pebble Beach
#18 at SFGC
Pedestrian holes on great courses IMO
I actually like 18 at Shoreacres a lot and think 1 has some merit as well.
Also a fan of 18 at Fishers island and think that 7 at Prairie Dunes is a great hole. It's not on the same kind of rolling hilly terrain as some of the rest of the course but it makes you think on all 3 shots (or 2) and the green complex and surrounds are fantastic.
I would nominate:
16 Oakland Hills South
12 Pine Valley
9 Ballyneal
9 Chicago GC
Definitely agree w those that posted 9 TOC
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Are we to accept that inferior means poor, good, pedestrian, or just not great? if you take some of the holes mentioned above, I am sure there would be many golf clubs around the world that may love to have a hole like that as part of their course? So, context is very important, and it seems that it is easy to jump up and down because - to use one of Jud's nominations (17 Bandon Dunes) - it is one of the worst holes at the resort, a surprising assessment, especially as it follows IMO the best. tough act to follow and a tough call IMO.
18 at CPC is the classic one that's often brought up, and is why more than one person has called CPC "the greatest 17 hole course in the world."
Jim: a small grab from my post after my visit there in 2010 - http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,45444.0.html
"Late in the day, the pathways thru the Cypress trees took on a ghostly appearance for me, and finally to the biggest surprise of all, the 18th, often derided here, with light fading fast, I was struck by the awesome minefield of giant Cypress that you are asked to thread, just one more completely different challenge thrown at you, just as you thought you could be tested no more,- as I weaved thru these giant Cypress, I was almost expecting them to nod or move, and was immediately reminded of the Easter Island statues, when you join the four large trees on 18 with the copse on the 17th these magnificent trees stand like sentinels guarding this treasured place, defiant to the elements and they show a resilience to the test of time, as the club, course and it’s Architect have done...."
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Ari,
do you mean the new, horribly altered right side/rear of the green 16 OH or the previous version.
And, since there seems to be some very good choices thru this thread, are there some suggestions for improving these holes?
My picks:
1 Riv - build up green, requires greater accuracy and management
12 PB - open front, and widen fwy left/short
5 Wh Str - move tees left and push fwy right 10 yards to soften dogleg. Re-locate green back and left of trees (yeah, in the water). Changes the 2nd shot dynamics (lay-ups)from bail to heroic, yet gives the go-for-it bomb more runway (and more enticement?)
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Pacific Dunes, given the extraordinary other worldly quality of holes 3, 4, 5, 6, 7 & 8,... there has to be a let down somewhere and hole number 9 is it. IMO
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Pacific Dunes, given the extraordinary other worldly quality of holes 3, 4, 5, 6, 7 & 8,... there has to be a let down somewhere and hole number 9 is it. IMO
Proves my earlier point. I would take that hole to any of my courses. There is some awkwardness to the tee shot, if you are trying to stay on the high road, but it is a unique hole because of the terrain and I'm quite happy that the hole made really good use of what we had to work with.
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While Royal County Down in my favorite course, I've never understood why there is a pond in the middle of the fairway on 17. That pond seems totally out of place, given the nature of the surrounding land.
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I agree with all the comments on BD.
Both 9 and 18 are inferior to the rest of the holes.. especially 18, because 16 is soooo good and is still fresh in the mind 2 holes later..
18 on Black Diamond Ranch kills the awesome momentum after playing the quarry holes.
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Firstly, thanks to those who have highlighting the links to other threads where the 16th at Royal Dornoch in particular has been debated.
Secondly, and more generally, a further aspect to consider is were the various holes mentioned on this thread always considered somewhat 'lesser' or 'inferior' holes or has this opinion developed over time with changes in equipment.
For example, this fairway bunker on the 17th at Royal Portrush maybe isn't theses days the hazard it once was off the tee when folk played with older generation clubs and balls.
(http://img34.imageshack.us/img34/1572/te2q.JPG)
I know there are historical and routing plan experts herein. Perhaps they may wish to comment on this and as also advise as to whether the various holes mentioned were always as they now appear.
All the best
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I think R D 16th is a good hole. Agree about comments on the trio of holes at Tenby. Played it a while ago and there seemed to be some extra holes at far end of course on interesting land.
Cruden Bay 10th ?
Rye 11th ?
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??? ::) ???
Might not have played it enough to postulate such, but how about the 5th at Shinnecock . It just didn't appear to match the others for quality or interest !
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7th at Seminole. A not very interesting hole that feels like it was dropped onto the course by someone with much less imagination that DR.
Bob
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The longer I've been around, the less these "inferior" holes tend to weigh on my evaluation of a course. Nearly always, they add to the variety and pacing of the course in question, if nothing else.
Plus, some of the holes nominated as "inferior" are not inferior at all. It is the minds of their critics that are inferior.
The real question is, how many great and very good holes does a course have?
Tom,
So what do the 1st and 14th add to Woodlands? Would you suggest the club try to make those two holes more interesting, or would you leave them?
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The mentions of 18 at Yale surprises me. I recognize that it can be polarizing (I happen to love it), but 16 is the hole on that course truly deserving of criticism.
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7th at Seminole. A not very interesting hole that feels like it was dropped onto the course by someone with much less imagination that DR.
YIKES
Bob, please tell me that someone has hacked into your computer and is posting under your name.
# 7 is a terrific hole, especially when played into the wind or good cross winds.
There are considerable demands upon the drive and real demands on the second shot.
The sloped and slightly crowned green poses plenty of challenge.
You have to view every hole at Seminole in the context of it's play from every one of 360 degrees.
Each hole changes it's personality and play as the wind shifts, yet, the overall tactical balance remains fairly constant.
The short # 10 might be a good example.
Played with the prevailing wind from the S or SE, it's relatively benign, but into a north wind, it becomes a ferocious adversary.
Recently, in a best ball tournament at Seminole, starting on the 10th tee, with a 1 to 2 club wind from the North , our fellow competitors started off with a best ball of ten (10), and, it could have been worse. I managed to birdie the hole and felt like we picked up two strokes on the field and that the hole was repaying us for the triple bogey we started off with two years ago.
Each hole at Seminole must be analyzed by how it fits into the puzzle presented by varying winds, and not as a stand alone hole played with wind coming from one direction.
P.S. Change your password ;D
Bob
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Pat -
Aside from the fact that wind makes playing any hole more interesting, I fail to see the appeal of the 7th at Seminole. A drive from an elevated tee to a wide landing area. Then an iron to a large oval green with flanking bunkers. A medium length par 4 that could be found anywhere.
The most remarkable thing about the 7th is the architectural fall-off from the four holes that precede it and the killer par 3 8th that follows it. ;)
Bob
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To me, it's like the trail rating system at ski areas. A black diamond in Western New York could be a blue in Vermont or even a green on a world-class area in Utah. In other words, ski trail ratings are relative to other trails at that facility.
The worst hole at Pine Valley would be better than the best hole at 95% of the world's courses, no?
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The mentions of 18 at Yale surprises me. I recognize that it can be polarizing (I happen to love it), but 16 is the hole on that course truly deserving of criticism.
A centerline bunker between 50 and 100 yards from the green could go a long way in ramping up the intrigue of 16 at Yale. It would certainly put more thought into the second shot for those that are thinking about taking a crack at the green in two. This hole has some really cool landforms on the right side of the drive zone for the longer hitters asking for a draw shaped shot to grab a turbo boost off of the mounding. Scott a Ramsay has reclaimed quite a bit of green that had receded over the years and there are some really interesting putts available depending on where it is pinned.
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The mentions of 18 at Yale surprises me. I recognize that it can be polarizing (I happen to love it), but 16 is the hole on that course truly deserving of criticism.
Wrong, Lewis. 16 isn't deserving of anything.
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The mentions of 18 at Yale surprises me. I recognize that it can be polarizing (I happen to love it), but 16 is the hole on that course truly deserving of criticism.
A centerline bunker between 50 and 100 yards from the green could go a long way in ramping up the intrigue of 16 at Yale.
Well, except that would make it just like #17, with the Principal's Nose a bit in front of the green.
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Yale 16 is a great example of Wethered & Simpson's point. It's a needed breather before two brutes. And while 17 is less of a brute due to modern equipment (but a 4 still is hard earned), modern equipment has turned 16 into a reachable par 5. As Tim notes, Ramsay's expansion of the green has given support to reachability (and increased the probability of 3-putts :P ).
And why does reachable matter? Because of 17 and 18. Our breather hole gives us the "opportunity" to think about 17 & 18 while we're playing it, changing not only the quality of our play on 16, potentially, but the strategy we take. Nature abhors a vacuum and golfers fill pauses with...thoughts.
All this said, I'd be in favor of restoring the original green, just because I'd like to see it.
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Pat -
Aside from the fact that wind makes playing any hole more interesting, I fail to see the appeal of the 7th at Seminole.
A drive from an elevated tee to a wide landing area.
What about the cross bunkers you have to carry ?
Then an iron to a large oval green with flanking bunkers.
After a good drive, I hit a rock solid 3-wood and cleared the water by 3 feet,
I deliberately aimed at the right side, knowing it was the shorter carry.
Had I aimed at the green or pulled my shot, I would have been in the water.
Then, I chipped up and missed my putt.
The day before I hit my drive too high and the wind ate it up. So, I had to lay up, short of the water, then hit a solid iron into the green.
The green isn't an oval, it's elongated.
What you also fail to see is how the hole serves to transition the golfer from the upper dune, down to the flat body of the property.
Not dissimilar from the 2nd hole at Friars Head.
# 12 functions in a similar fashion and certainly, # 12's fairway and rough are far wider than # 7's.
A medium length par 4 that could be found anywhere.
When I have to hit a drive and 3-wood, and not get home, I don't consider that a medium length hole.
As to finding it anywhere, I don't know of many holes that could transition the golfer better.
One also has to consider the use of the system of center ponds that drain the property and how they are incorporated into various holes, like the 7th.
The most remarkable thing about the 7th is the architectural fall-off from the four holes that precede it and the killer par 3 8th that follows it. ;)
#8 is certainly a hard hole. Is it a great hole ?
When you analyze the individual holes at Seminole I think you have to give consideration to their function.
Some transition the golfer from the flat body of the golf course, up to the top of the dunes and others, like # 7 perform the opposite function.
Maybe you've played it when a West wind has been blowing, then, it's far more benign
I'm surprised you didn't pick # 1 or # 14
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You have to remember that the 18th hole, designed in the era of "match" play, was often an irrelevant hole, since most matches had been concluded by # 18, therefore, on the courses built by the ODG's you can't employ a medal plan mentality when evaluating the 18th hole.
I've read this countless times and the more it crosses my vision, the more unreliable it becomes. Were ODGs using metrics to determine that matches ended on the 17th more often than the 18th? Why not the 16th or the 15th?
Since a match could end anywhere, but most likely between 10 and 18, I don't buy this "match play" mentality for designing a golf course.
If it weren't for the Valley of Sin, the 18th at TOC would have little merit.
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The mentions of 18 at Yale surprises me. I recognize that it can be polarizing (I happen to love it), but 16 is the hole on that course truly deserving of criticism.
A centerline bunker between 50 and 100 yards from the green could go a long way in ramping up the intrigue of 16 at Yale.
Well, except that would make it just like #17, with the Principal's Nose a bit in front of the green.
Tom-I don't buy that argument as 17 is a par 4 and 16 is a par 5. Additionally you have room right of the Principal's Nose as a playing corridor which you wouldn't have on 16.
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I think the first question that has to be answered is: What makes the hole inferior ?
And the second question: WHEN did it become inferior ?
And the third question: Did it become inferior due to increased distance due to modern technology ?
Archie, # 5 at Shinnecock might be easy with the prevailing wind, but, it sure changes it's personality and difficulty when the wind shifts, especially into a North wind.