Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture Discussion Group => Topic started by: JNC Lyon on December 22, 2013, 08:49:54 PM
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Wow! That thread title is really specific!
Yes, it is, but the combination of questionable architecture in Florida and great architecture I experienced yesterday got me thinking about this issue. For me, a split fairway hole is a positive signal for me on several levels. It shows:
1) The architect is trying to do something unconventional.
2) The architect is not dumbing down the course for public consumption.
3) The hole has multiple options.
4) The hole most likely has width.
5) The golfer is forced to show the world (or his playing partners, whichever inspires you more) what he or she is made of.
In addition, a split fairway on a public track always piques my interest in that course. When I ask, "what did you think of Dogtrack National?" and somebody says, "well, Fart Hills isn't my favorite architect, but... ...there is a neat split fairway par four on number 7..." I'm immediately more interested in the place.
So...what are your favorite split-fairway holes on public courses?
I'll start things off strong:
4, 14 and 15 at World Woods Pine Barrens
5, 10, and 15 at Morgan Hill
3, 8 and 11 at Lederach
5 and 14 at Mill Creek
7 at Byrncliff
17 at Seven Oaks
16 at Inniscrone
16 at Links at Hiawatha
11 at Streamsong (Red)
15 at Canterbury Woods
10 at Kettle Brook
Thoughts?
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How is #7 at Byrncliff a split fairway hole?
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I think both 8 and 9 at Black Wolf Run River Course are split fairways. I only played the course once.
The Bluffs on Thompson Creek (now open to public play) has a great #9 true split
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Respectfully, let's create another definition of public golf or non-private public access golf? North of $150 a round is not really public golf, is it?
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#4 at Bodega Bay (CA) could make the list for the worst public course split fairway holes. ;)
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#11 at Trophy Club (Lebanon, Ind.)
The course gets a lot of love here for its par 5's, and justifiably so.
The split fairway on #11 develops for the second shot, not the first.
The left line gives you a straightforward uphill approach, but it's very likely to be short-sided with difficult bunkers to carry.
The right line is completely different and tough for me to describe - you do not have to contend with the sharply uphill approach, but the fairway is a constant climb that in the last 100 yards is almost "convex" (bulges out toward the sky), leaving you with an uphill stance to a green that is actually even with or possibly below you. Too far back and you'll have a comfortable distance but it'll be blind. The green is wide open from that direction, but it's also very deep - difficult to gauge the weight.
Just a delight. To me.
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13 at Old Silo in Mt. Sterling, KY, a short par 5, has a very wide fairway with a waste area full of sand, broken rough, and railroad ties right down the middle of it.
I don't think it's an especially strategic hole. There's no real benefit to being on one side of the waste area versus the other, and big hitters can blow it right over the top of the hazard and leave a very short approach. But it does make the tee shot interesting, as a little miss off the tee can make par a tough score while anyone in the fairway should have a reasonable shot at a 4. It's a fun hole.
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The 10th hole at Forest Dunes is a great split fairway hole. Because of the angle of the hole, playing to the right side fairway plays a lot narrower and a bit awkward than the left side of the fairway which is much wider but leaves a longer shot. Plus with the fairway bunker bisecting the two fairways, you can make playing to that left side of the fairway much more dangerous if you try to cut off more than you can handle
The 4th hole at Cobb's Creek has great potential too but is in some serious need of tree trimming down the right hand side of fairway
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The course isn't currently operational, but the 18th at the Daufuskie Island Melrose Course was fun. Split fairway along the Calibogue Sound. While I think it's unlikely, I would love to see them make that a successful venture. It was always a fun day taking the ferry over and playing a cool little track.
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Orchard Creek GC, Paul Cowley's design in Altamont NY.
#14 is a drivable par 4 of 241 to 270 yards and the fairway split happens about 55 yards from the front of the green. Low side (r) puts the green 15' above your head, but you can safely hit an iron to 40 or so yards short of it. High side is narrow, only 15 yards wide, and the green is protected by a bunker short and left, and a creek, long and right. You need to be very sure of yourself if you take this route as only the smallest of fades or draws, or a very straight shot, will 'work'.
Fun hole.
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#11 at Trophy Club (Lebanon, Ind.)
The course gets a lot of love here for its par 5's, and justifiably so.
The split fairway on #11 develops for the second shot, not the first.
The left line gives you a straightforward uphill approach, but it's very likely to be short-sided with difficult bunkers to carry.
The right line is completely different and tough for me to describe - you do not have to contend with the sharply uphill approach, but the fairway is a constant climb that in the last 100 yards is almost "convex" (bulges out toward the sky), leaving you with an uphill stance to a green that is actually even with or possibly below you. Too far back and you'll have a comfortable distance but it'll be blind. The green is wide open from that direction, but it's also very deep - difficult to gauge the weight.
Just a delight. To me.
Scott I made a 3 from that blind shot with a wedge one time! I get up to the green, and I'm bummed because I pured a shot that went over the back. I couldn't tell my shot had gone in the hole.
The Pete Dye course in French Lick has a dual fairway hole par five #14 (sort of public)
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#3 at Rustic Canyon is a great hole, and I've seen people choose the left, right, and over option many times.
#9 at Oak Quarry was also one of my favorite holes there and provides a risky split fairway option.
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I've always liked #13 on Bethpage Red.
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The par 4 8th at Barnbougle Dunes. However, into the wind it's a par 5
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The par 5 #2 hole at the Quarry at Giants Ridge, you can go to the left and make it a 3 shot par 5 or take a short cut on the right and go for it in 2 over a large quarry.
Just a great golf hole on a very good golf course which if it was located anywhere other than the hinterlands of northern Minnesota, would in my opinion be a lock for top 100 Modern.
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3) The hole has multiple options.
John,
For me this seems to be a myth.
Every split fairway hole I've played there was one very clear option, and not much of a reason to take the other 'option.' No temptation.
One example is the 11th at Lederach that you cite. I've played 100 rounds there and I've never seen anyone intentionally play the longer route to the left, around the bunker complex--even before they filled in the swampy area short and right around the corner.
I don't think #8 there is a split fairway. Just a real wide one.
The 16th at Inniscrone may be the exception for me, but not off the tee. Everyone seems to play down the left side. The right side fairway becomes an 'option' when someone hits a short tee shot to the left fairway and is left with a very heroic shot into the green. They have an option to play safe and simply advance the ball down the right fairway and be left with a short third shot as an approach. I remember discussing this hole with Doug and Redanman at Powell's St. Martin's outing. We all had different opinions of it.
Perhaps I need to see more examples.
Hope you're enjoying your new life in Florida.
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Old Silo, Forest Dunes and Trophy club, all good holes. Also, #18 at Birdsfoot in PA.
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Wintonbury Hills # 6
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13 at Devils Thumb
A course I have never seen mentioned here. Outside the small town of Delta CO., a delightful golf course, in a setting that makes one think of the moon. Makes the AZ desert look like a rain forest, well almost anyway. The golf course is very strategic, with fun options on most of the holes. A very fun play.
13 is a shortish par four. The heroic route gives big boppers a chance to reach the tiny tilted green. Mere mortals play along a ridge and are left with a mid to short iron from on top of the ridge down to the still tiny green. The failed hero is left with a shot from a tight lie or adobe hard pan to a green that is above his head. I am not sure who the architect is, but he or she did a terrific job of finding holes in the natural terrain. Thirteen is just one of several.
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I've always liked #13 on Bethpage Red.
I played it once, it confounded me, I'd love to play it ten times in a row, to finally figure it out.
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Billy B, Welcome to GCA and great pick on an unknown gem of a hole and course. I went for the lower left as I was a traveller and couldn't imagine passing up the opportunity. It also has a diabolic green with a devilishly small upper tier. Is that the hole where you have the option to ride a cart for two holes? It's a Rick Phelps design, btw.
http://www.devilsthumbgolfclub.com/course/
#9 at Stone Creek near Oregon City has some gambling interest as a split bender.
#10 at Apache Stronghold is strong. Lightning bolt of a bunker down the middle.
#16 Bandon Dunes is world class
#9 at Bandon Dunes could be a great one with advent of old practice facility. (Think #14 "Long" @ St. Andrews Old)
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Devil's Thumb is a Matt Ward favorite and he mentioned it regularly, although Matt hasn't been around in awhile so not everyone would know that.
Staying in Colorado, #3 at Murphy Creek is a good split fairway hole; #13 at Heritage at Westmoor is pretty good; #18 at Riverdale Dunes has some merit, although it's my least favorite hole on the course.
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#12 Talking Stick North
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When I used the search box to see if Devils Thumb had been mentioned, I did not get any hits. I have been reading the site for several years, and do not recall any mention, but my memory is fallible at best.
It is the course where you can use a cart to go up and down the hill, I believe at 13 and 14. I liked the idea. It makes it possible to walk, even with bad knees and sore hips.
Slag, your description of the green is spot on. Thanks.
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Bill,
Here's one from '01:
http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,5026.0.html
As you probably know, you must do searches from the Discussion Group page. Go there - just enter- Devil's Thumb -nothing else, and you'll find 20 or so entries.
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Wasn't Rustic Canyon's #11 a split fairway before flooding? I remember #18 having two options off the tee but I don't think it could be considered a split fairway.
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Thanks Jim. I thought I searched right, but I guess not. I followed the link you sent, fascinating to me because I grew up in Grand Junction and still have good friends there. We used to fantasize building a golf course on the Redlands, and Delta had a little mom and pop nine holer. All good stuff to a native.
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Thanks Jim. I thought I searched right, but I guess not. I followed the link you sent, fascinating to me because I grew up in Grand Junction and still have good friends there. We used to fantasize building a golf course on the Redlands, and Delta had a little mom and pop nine holer. All good stuff to a native.
interesting search engine devils gets devils and devils' but not devil's and devil's only gets devil's
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RACV Healesville (although it might not qualify as 'public') in Melbourne.
18th hole, short par 4, downhill tee shot with centre hazards, and a horseshoe green with bunkering in the middle.
Sometimes the preferred line is obvious, at others it isn't, eg when the pin is back middle. You might be able to get closer from the right, but a safer play is from the left.
James B
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Orchard Creek GC, Paul Cowley's design in Altamont NY.
#14 is a drivable par 4 of 241 to 270 yards and the fairway split happens about 55 yards from the front of the green. Low side (r) puts the green 15' above your head, but you can safely hit an iron to 40 or so yards short of it. High side is narrow, only 15 yards wide, and the green is protected by a bunker short and left, and a creek, long and right. You need to be very sure of yourself if you take this route as only the smallest of fades or draws, or a very straight shot, will 'work'.
Fun hole.
Played this once and only once. Playing partner took the high route left, drove the green and sank his putt for eagle. Self took the safe route, found the creek, took "other". Fun hole as yes, there are options. 1 of many fine holes on this public gem.
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14 at We-Ko-Pa Saguaro. The fairway on the right looks a lot narrower from the tee than the picture below, but if you can hit that fairway, it's a reachable par 5. I always chicken out and play it down the left.
(http://wekopa.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/09/14_saguaro_holes.jpg)
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I'm not calling this one the "best", but surely it is polarizable. This is the 14th hole at Baywood Greens in Long Neck, Delaware. The 'island' left fairway route plays about 360 yards, the right fairway plays about 420.
(http://xchem.villanova.edu/~bausch/images/BaywoodGreens/14_aerial.jpg)
Some clickable views:
From the tee:
(http://xchem.villanova.edu/~bausch/images/BaywoodGreens/14a.jpg) (http://xchem.villanova.edu/~bausch/images/BaywoodGreens/14a.jpg)
At times you might feel like you are at Longwood Gardens!
(http://xchem.villanova.edu/~bausch/images/BaywoodGreens/14b.jpg) (http://xchem.villanova.edu/~bausch/images/BaywoodGreens/14b.jpg)
From the left fairway (the route I took, leaving a short iron in):
(http://xchem.villanova.edu/~bausch/images/BaywoodGreens/14c.jpg) (http://xchem.villanova.edu/~bausch/images/BaywoodGreens/14c.jpg)
View from over the green:
(http://xchem.villanova.edu/~bausch/images/BaywoodGreens/14d.jpg) (http://xchem.villanova.edu/~bausch/images/BaywoodGreens/14d.jpg)
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14 at We-Ko-Pa Saguaro. The fairway on the right looks a lot narrower from the tee than the picture below, but if you can hit that fairway, it's a reachable par 5. I always chicken out and play it down the left.
(http://wekopa.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/09/14_saguaro_holes.jpg)
Not sure I'd agree that this hole really works. The right fairway is exceedingly hard to hit ... it's very narrow and crowned so balls tends to run off right and, especially, left (to the wash).
Even then, only a very long drive would yield a good opportunity to reach the green in two--that's a difficult uphill shot to a small green with death right.
I've tried playing it both ways, and going right is just too hazardous of a drive attempt with too little reward, considering how difficult the second then is.
Maybe then my next comment will seem odd, but I do second the earlier nomination of #12 at Talking Stick North. It's a short par 4 with a wash dividing the tee and bulk of the fairway from the green. The green, as with the 2nd there, is set hard against OOB--anything left of the green at all is OB.
So, going left, straight at the green, is certainly hazardous, anything pulled is OB. However, the reward in this situation is much greater. The green can be reached with one shot, or if you don;t get there, it's a simple pitch up the length of the green. If you go right, recovery from the wash is eminently possible, so it's not as severe as the Saguaro 14 wash. Also, the second, even if it's just a wedge, is a very difficult shot on TSN 12 so "playing safe" is not really full possible in any event.
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Made this post (http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,56813.msg1321890.html#msg1321890) a few months ago re: split fairway holes:
Capstone Club Gil Hanse, Architect
I played this one last year and liked it a lot. Same principle as many...drive it down the left hand side, avoiding a forced carry over the creek but face a more difficult angle to the green and a longer carry over the waste bunker. Drive it over the creek and have a more direct route. A good looking hole, even in the dead of winter.
(http://i464.photobucket.com/albums/rr7/rednorman/CAPSTONE/DSCF3225.jpg)
Here is the yardage guide..
(http://www2.cybergolf.com/sites/images/241/Hole-17-ydbook.jpg)
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A few have mentioned Rustic Canyon's 3rd hole, also by Hanse and Co. Unlike many of the holes mentioned, there is no truly heroic, do-or-die, option, but the hole does present realistic options for just about every level of golfer and it works well because just about everyone goes into the hole expecting (or at least hoping for) a good score.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v249/dmoriarty/Rustic-3rd-2011.jpg)
Generally, the numbers on the aerial represent four distinct options off the tee:
1. Go for the green, requiring a drive of around 300 yards, which is quite doable downhill for many golfers. There is trouble in about every direction, but a wide enough landing area so that this seems to be the preferred option for better golfers and longer hitters under normal weather conditions. It doesn't seem to be simple to get up and down, though, even after a decent drive.
2. Hit a long iron or fairway wood down the right side, 200-250 yards. Probably the most visually appealing option off the tee, and the most favored option of those not going for the green. Trouble is, it is somewhat of a sucker play in that the second shot is somewhat awkward for reasons that are hard to explain. It just seems like it is hard for golfers to get it close to most pins from that No. 3 area, probably for a combination of reasons: the green surface is blind, there is a funny little hump short of the green, there is trouble beyond, it is hard to control the runout from over there etc. It isn't a hard shot by any means, but most people would like to make birdie and it is tough to do from this No. 2 area.
3. The least inviting tee shot - one cannot see the depth of the landing area - but probably the best place to be if one is not going for the green. Again, it is hard to explain or even understand why, but it seems that with many pin positions it is easier to get it close from over there. But many golfers never bother to try it because the tee shot is an awkward distance and looks more challenging.
4. Most golfers never consider this option, but a mid-iron tucked into the area short and left of the middle bunker leaves a wedge in and a decent angle. Not as good as from the No. 3 area, but definitely better than from the No. 2 area. (There is an upslope between the No. 4 area and the No. 2 area.)
Overall, it is always a fun hole to play although possibly more fun for those of who aren't automatically going for the green every time.
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3. The least inviting tee shot - one cannot see the depth of the landing area - but probably the best place to be if one is not going for the green. Again, it is hard to explain or even understand why, but it seems that with many pin positions it is easier to get it close from over there. But many golfers never bother to try it because the tee shot is an awkward distance and looks more challenging.
The distance is SOOOO awkward that you did not give any clue as to what it is, nor what is left...{smiley face}
So, David...how far off tee to get to position 3 and how much (on average) is left?
RM
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I'm not calling this one the "best", but surely it is polarizable. This is the 14th hole at Baywood Greens in Long Neck, Delaware. The 'island' left fairway route plays about 360 yards, the right fairway plays about 420.
(http://xchem.villanova.edu/~bausch/images/BaywoodGreens/14_aerial.jpg)
Some clickable views:
From the tee:
(http://xchem.villanova.edu/~bausch/images/BaywoodGreens/14a.jpg) (http://xchem.villanova.edu/~bausch/images/BaywoodGreens/14a.jpg)
At times you might feel like you are at Longwood Gardens!
(http://xchem.villanova.edu/~bausch/images/BaywoodGreens/14b.jpg) (http://xchem.villanova.edu/~bausch/images/BaywoodGreens/14b.jpg)
From the left fairway (the route I took, leaving a short iron in):
(http://xchem.villanova.edu/~bausch/images/BaywoodGreens/14c.jpg) (http://xchem.villanova.edu/~bausch/images/BaywoodGreens/14c.jpg)
View from over the green:
(http://xchem.villanova.edu/~bausch/images/BaywoodGreens/14d.jpg) (http://xchem.villanova.edu/~bausch/images/BaywoodGreens/14d.jpg)
There's a similar island fairway hole at Desmond Muirhead's McCormick Ranch in Scottsdale, #9 on the Palm course: http://www.mccormickranchgolf.com/PalmCourseHole.asp?Hole=9
If you can find the island fairway, it's not a long hole. I've only played there twice, but I think I went 3-wood/wedge both times. The long way around is very unappealing--it's so much longer, and a finger of water juts in front of the green creating a forced carry anyway.
Another unusual feature there is that the forward tee is on the island. That is a good thing for the drive, I suppose. But I played one round with a lady playing from that tee and once she was on the island she had very little chance of getting off. She could get tee shots lofted, but had a hard time consistently getting a wedge in the air. Even if she'd gotten right up to the edge of the lake, it's still probably 50 yards of carry or so, and she wash;t interested in dumping 2+ balls in the pond just hoping she might get one airborne.
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The distance is SOOOO awkward that you did not give any clue as to what it is, nor what is left...{smiley face}
So, David...how far off tee to get to position 3 and how much (on average) is left?
RM
From the back tee to the No. 3 on the aerial is about 200 yards. The carry over the diagonal rough ridge splitting the fairway is between 170 to 185 yards from the back tee. It doesn't sound awkward and the reality is there is plenty of room over there, but (because of the diagonal ridge) the fairway surface is blind and it feels like you are hitting toward out of bounds.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v249/dmoriarty/Rustic-3rd-2011.jpg)
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I'm not calling this one the "best", but surely it is polarizable. This is the 14th hole at Baywood Greens in Long Neck, Delaware. The 'island' left fairway route plays about 360 yards, the right fairway plays about 420.
(http://xchem.villanova.edu/~bausch/images/BaywoodGreens/14_aerial.jpg)
There's a similar island fairway hole at Desmond Muirhead's McCormick Ranch in Scottsdale, #9 on the Palm course: http://www.mccormickranchgolf.com/PalmCourseHole.asp?Hole=9
If you can find the island fairway, it's not a long hole. I've only played there twice, but I think I went 3-wood/wedge both times. The long way around is very unappealing--it's so much longer, and a finger of water juts in front of the green creating a forced carry anyway.
Another unusual feature there is that the forward tee is on the island. That is a good thing for the drive, I suppose. But I played one round with a lady playing from that tee and once she was on the island she had very little chance of getting off. She could get tee shots lofted, but had a hard time consistently getting a wedge in the air. Even if she'd gotten right up to the edge of the lake, it's still probably 50 yards of carry or so, and she wash;t interested in dumping 2+ balls in the pond just hoping she might get one airborne.
Another one in this style is #6 at Kings North in Myrtle Beach
(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7372/11631446916_38acf93c3a_n.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/golfcoursepix/11631446916/)
KingsNorthHole6 (http://www.flickr.com/photos/golfcoursepix/11631446916/)
http://www.myrtlebeachnational.com/media/images/KingsNorthHole6.jpg (http://www.myrtlebeachnational.com/media/images/KingsNorthHole6.jpg)
(http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8484/8191183869_4e2e7d93b9_c.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/golfcoursepix/8191183869/)
Kings North @ Myrtle Beach National #6 - par 5 the Gambler view from island fairway (http://www.flickr.com/photos/golfcoursepix/8191183869/)
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Kings North @ Myrtle Beach National #6 - par 5 the Gambler view from island fairway
More like the Floater view from the channel.
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9th Lost Farm
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3) The hole has multiple options.
John,
For me this seems to be a myth.
Every split fairway hole I've played there was one very clear option, and not much of a reason to take the other 'option.' No temptation.
It was already mentioned in the thread, but 13 on Bethpage Red is an example of a hole with a split fairway that really does have two options.
If you go right (which is the easier tee shot), you have to carry a bunker on approach shot to a very shallow green. If you go long, it is a tricky pitch/chip given the contours of the green.
If you go left, the green really opens up for you and it is a much, much easier shot. You don't have to come up over the bunker so coming up short is not a bad play and the green is much deeper when you come at it from the left. But the tee shot down the left is much tighter and if you miss right (which most golfers at Bethpage do) then you are in some very penal bunkers.
I usually end up wishing I tried the other option but that may say more about the current state of my game than anything else.
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How about #14 at San Juan Oaks?
http://www.golffrontier.com/Courses/UnitedStates/California/Hollister/SanJuanOaksGolfClub.aspx?ShowTour=true
The course tends to kick my butt, but that hole is awesome!
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A very interesting thread. Has caused me to search my memories of split-fairway holes. I recall the 2nd and 16th holes at the Durand-Eastman Muni. On the 16th, the pin position often dictated one's choice (each with a bit of a risk). Someone mentioned the 14th at Mill Creek. I'm assuming that is the Mill Creek near Rochester, and that the 11th at Mill Creek is the intended hole (the 14th isn't a split-fairway). The 11th is not my favorite hole, though it does offer some very interesting choices. I believe that the topography dictated the configuration on the 11th. None of my choices rival other holes presented on this thread in terms of look and interest.
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A very interesting thread. Has caused me to search my memories of split-fairway holes. I recall the 2nd and 16th holes at the Durand-Eastman Muni. On the 16th, the pin position often dictated one's choice (each with a bit of a risk). Someone mentioned the 14th at Mill Creek. I'm assuming that is the Mill Creek near Rochester, and that the 11th at Mill Creek is the intended hole (the 14th isn't a split-fairway). The 11th is not my favorite hole, though it does offer some very interesting choices. I believe that the topography dictated the configuration on the 11th. None of my choices rival other holes presented on this thread in terms of look and interest.
No, JNC definitely intended the 14th (he's not a fan of the 11th). The creek bisects the fairway on a diagonal leaving 2 distinct options, with a potential to carry everything with a huge drive. They have switched the set-up between a par 4/5 at times, which changes the nature of the split fairway, but you generally need to commit to one side or the other.
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Ed and Kevin.
You have the split-fairway 11th, which also terraces, making it unique. You then have the par-four 14th, which has two options off the tee. Just for giggles, you also have the split-fairway 4th and 18th at Mill Creek. Even 5 and 7 have split options. I think that Paul Albanese went split-crazy at MCGC.
Here is an overhead of the course:
http://tinyurl.com/lda8avn
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How about #14 at San Juan Oaks?
http://www.golffrontier.com/Courses/UnitedStates/California/Hollister/SanJuanOaksGolfClub.aspx?ShowTour=true
The course tends to kick my butt, but that hole is awesome!
Kicks my butt too, especially 14 and 15. 14 seems to play longer than the listed yardage and the central creek tucks up to the green on the right.
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Augustine Golf Club #1 in Stafford, VA
http://www.golfaugustine.com/golf/hole-by-hole.html#a
I used to just aim down the middle ensuring I would either be in the left or right fairway...
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13th at Holiday Valley in Ellicottville, NY. It has the cart path down the middle, but in a way that somewhat hides it.
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It was already mentioned in the thread, but 13 on Bethpage Red is an example of a hole with a split fairway that really does have two options.
If you go right (which is the easier tee shot), you have to carry a bunker on approach shot to a very shallow green. If you go long, it is a tricky pitch/chip given the contours of the green.
If you go left, the green really opens up for you and it is a much, much easier shot. You don't have to come up over the bunker so coming up short is not a bad play and the green is much deeper when you come at it from the left. But the tee shot down the left is much tighter and if you miss right (which most golfers at Bethpage do) then you are in some very penal bunkers.
I usually end up wishing I tried the other option but that may say more about the current state of my game than anything else.
This is one of my favorite holes to discuss. Me and Michael Felton were debating it last month in a thread that got wiped out. My contention was that for most players the right side tee shot isn't as safe as the left side is rewarding. It's not to say that certain players, based on their shot tendencies and misses, shouldn't always choose the right side. It's more that the right has dangers that neutralize some of its benefits of safety. So to your point above, while left is clearly the easier approach, I wasn't totally convinced that the right is clearly the easier drive. Good fun.
There is also some visual trickery on the tee that makes the right appear to be the easier play. But if you look at the aerial below, you'll see it's not so cut and dry. The fairway on the right side requires quite a bit of precision to be hit. While the widest stretch of fairway landing zone on the entire hole is actually on the left side, extending up to 255 from the tee and leaving only 135-140 (and a perfect angle) to the center of the green.
That all said, if you're a bomber who can carry the right side corner of the hazard (about 265 from the back tees), fairway or no, you're likely down there far enough to make much of this null. I don't have that ability as I drive it rather low, so it's left for me always.
(http://i175.photobucket.com/albums/w122/markfedeli/BPR13.png)
It's also an interesting hole in that:
The longer you hit it down the LEFT side, the more the fairway narrows.
The longer you hit it down the RIGHT, the more it widens.
LEFT has trouble on both sides of the drive and approach, requiring straighter shots.
RIGHT has trouble that needs to be carried on both drive and approach, requiring higher shots.
Obviously, I'm quite fascinated by this hole.
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It was already mentioned in the thread, but 13 on Bethpage Red is an example of a hole with a split fairway that really does have two options.
If you go right (which is the easier tee shot), you have to carry a bunker on approach shot to a very shallow green. If you go long, it is a tricky pitch/chip given the contours of the green.
If you go left, the green really opens up for you and it is a much, much easier shot. You don't have to come up over the bunker so coming up short is not a bad play and the green is much deeper when you come at it from the left. But the tee shot down the left is much tighter and if you miss right (which most golfers at Bethpage do) then you are in some very penal bunkers.
I usually end up wishing I tried the other option but that may say more about the current state of my game than anything else.
This is one of my favorite holes to discuss. Me and Michael Felton were debating it last month in a thread that got wiped out. My contention was that for most players the right side tee shot isn't as safe as the left side is rewarding. It's not to say that certain players, based on their shot tendencies and misses, shouldn't always choose the right side. It's more that the right has dangers that neutralize some of its benefits of safety. So to your point above, while left is clearly the easier approach, I wasn't totally convinced that the right is clearly the easier drive. Good fun.
There is also some visual trickery on the tee that makes the right appear to be the easier play. But if you look at the aerial below, you'll see it's not so cut and dry. The fairway on the right side requires quite a bit of precision to be hit. While the widest stretch of fairway landing zone on the entire hole is actually on the left side, extending up to 255 from the tee and leaving only 135-140 (and a perfect angle) to the center of the green.
That all said, if you're a bomber who can carry the right side corner of the hazard (about 265 from the back tees), fairway or no, you're likely down there far enough to make much of this null. I don't have that ability as I drive it rather low, so it's left for me always.
(http://i175.photobucket.com/albums/w122/markfedeli/BPR13.png)
It's also an interesting hole in that:
The longer you hit it down the LEFT side, the more the fairway narrows.
The longer you hit it down the RIGHT, the more it widens.
LEFT has trouble on both sides of the drive and approach, requiring straighter shots.
RIGHT has trouble that needs to be carried on both drive and approach, requiring higher shots.
Obviously, I'm quite fascinated by this hole.
Mark -
Discussion of this particular hole arose during a "Favorite Centerline Bunker" thread:
http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,53386.msg1226949.html#msg1226949 (http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,53386.msg1226949.html#msg1226949)
Like you, I always thought the trade-offs on this hole were a little skewed and awkward. In the other thread, I looked up the historical imagery of the hole, and discovered that the right fairway did not exist through 1980. Thus, I think the reason this hole is awkward is the fact that the hazard was never intended to be centerline.
Of course, just because it wasn't intended, doesn't mean the current hole isn't fascinating to discuss.
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Mark -
Discussion of this particular hole arose during a "Favorite Centerline Bunker" thread:
http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,53386.msg1226949.html#msg1226949 (http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,53386.msg1226949.html#msg1226949)
Like you, I always thought the trade-offs on this hole were a little skewed and awkward. In the other thread, I looked up the historical imagery of the hole, and discovered that the right fairway did not exist through 1980. Thus, I think the reason this hole is awkward is the fact that the hazard was never intended to be centerline.
Of course, just because it wasn't intended, doesn't mean the current hole isn't fascinating to discuss.
thanks for linking to the older thread. you made some good points in there.
i agree about the awkwardness coming from the fact that the right fairway was added later on. i don't have them in front of me but from what i remember of the older aerials, the hazard bisected the fairway diagonally right to left and was not intended to be carried, but to narrow the fairway the further down you went.
i've drawn the old fairways below, does that look about right? i've also drawn where i think the original tee box was: further back and closer to #12 green (so the hole played even more blindly coming over the mounding and raised bunker complex on the left). the tee box in use now was the old forward tee.
looks like a much better hole back then, no?
(http://i175.photobucket.com/albums/w122/markfedeli/BPR13-1.png)
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i've drawn the old fairways below, does that look about right? i've also drawn where i think the original tee box was: further back and closer to #12 green (so the hole played even more blindly coming over the mounding and raised bunker complex on the left). the tee box in use now was the old forward tee.
looks like a much better hole back then, no?
(http://i175.photobucket.com/albums/w122/markfedeli/BPR13-1.png)
Mark,
I never really thought of the area above the bunker to be considered fairway in the older aerials, but sometimes it's tougher to discern at the lower resolutions. I have posted a picture (and the link) to the 1953 aerial below:
http://www.historicaerials.com/aerials.php?scale=8E-06&lat=40.7531847061924&lon=-73.4585251279306&year=1953 (http://www.historicaerials.com/aerials.php?scale=8E-06&lat=40.7531847061924&lon=-73.4585251279306&year=1953)
(http://www.historicaerials.com/api/img-server.php?op=fetchHistoricPhotograph&bbox=-73.4614211279306,40.7560807061924,-73.4556291279306,40.7502887061924&year=1953&stamp=true)
From the 1953 image, you can tell that the trees on the left were a recent addition, so they probably were never the intent of the original design. Based on this, I'm assuming that the original intent was to force the golfer to commit to a line based on his expected carry distance to avoid going through the fairway into the bunker. Given the number of diagonal landing areas around the rest of the property (e.g. Bethpage #2), that would seem the most likely to me.
But, it would be interesting to consider whether there may have been fairway above the bunker (like your drawing) at some point. Using Google Earth, it would take a substantial hit to reach that fairway in the days of hickory & persimmon (at least 250 carry - likely more).
That would be a neat feature, but if that were intended, I would expect the green bunkering and slope to be reversed (i.e. you'd be rewarded with an easier approach if you pull off the diagonal carry to the far right fairway). If that were the tradeoff, then the hole may be more like #5 on the Black.
Unfortunately, I think that the seeming "centerline / split fairway" design is really an afterthought resulting from the overzealous tree growth on the left side. If they want to go this route, I think the right landing area needs to be enlarged much more (as it really is not much easier to hit than the left). As it currently is set up, I think the best option is to hit a shot to the left in the 210-230 yard range, which is the widest part of the fairway (before the trees and hazard begin pinching), with all other options lagging far behind.
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From Phil Young:
The 13th hole on Bethpage Red was not designed as a split fairway hole. Not only were the trees left not there, there wasn't any fairway left of the first large left bunker, but there was one to the right of it which was quite wide. It ran to the front right corner of the large fairway bunker and ended at that point. In other words, there was no fairway to the right of that bunker, but rather the fairway continued up the left side of it and ended at the top left corner of it. In effect this was a large, idagonal bunker that crossed the entire fairway. The fairway then continued on to the green past this fairway bunker. In effect then, by his use of the the fairway bunkers as planned, he made a masterful twisting fairway, a feature in many of his designed par-4s. You can clearly see this in the development plan.
(http://xchem.villanova.edu/~bausch/images/bethpage/Bethpage_Development_Plan.jpg)
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From Phil Young:
The 13th hole on Bethpage Red was not designed as a split fairway hole. Not only were the trees left not there, there wasn't any fairway left of the first large left bunker, but there was one to the right of it which was quite wide. It ran to the front right corner of the large fairway bunker and ended at that point. In other words, there was no fairway to the right of that bunker, but rather the fairway continued up the left side of it and ended at the top left corner of it. In effect this was a large, idagonal bunker that crsoosed the entire fairway. The fairway then continued on to the green past this fairway bunker. In effect then, by his use of the the fairway bunkers as planned, he made a masterful twisting fairway, a feature in many of his designed par-4s. You can clearly see this in the development plan.
(http://xchem.villanova.edu/~bausch/images/bethpage/Bethpage_Development_Plan.jpg)
Joe (& Phil),
Thanks for the historical information. Based on what I see, the fairway to the right of the diagonal hazard was more of a "lay-up" zone, and never intended as an alternative from the tee. What looks different to me is that the planned greenside bunkering didn't seem to be as unfriendly to an approach from this "lay up area" compared to what is currently on the ground.
Also, did they shift the tee more to the right over the years? I thought I saw a tee in the 1953 aerial more to the left, but I couldn't be sure at that resolution. It appeared like the development plan had the left bunker as more of a "cross hazard" rather than a "flanking hazard" (as it appears now).
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From Phil Young:
In effect then, by his use of the the fairway bunkers as planned, he made a masterful twisting fairway, a feature in many of his designed par-4s.
Bethpage is the one course that really that cemented the value of diagonal lading zones in my mind. While many people are amazed by the scale of the course (which is inspiring), my main architectural takeaway from the course was the use of diagonals, adding a layer of interest to the tee shots beyond the normal "how far right or left of center can I miss it."
I just returned from a Pinehurst trip with Ron Montesano and two other non GCA-nerd types. On the ride home we tried to engage in a little architectural discussion and what we usually look for from the tee. Eventually, we were shut down with "I don't care about those things, I just focus on executing my swing. You guys over-complicate things, when all you need to do is hit at the middle of the fairway and middle of the green."
A course like Bethpage would be difficult for this type of player, because the "middle" of the fairway is different for every player depending on their length. This guy is a bigger hitter and I suspect he'd be frustrated after hitting through too many landing areas (which is the beauty of the design).
Tying it back to the theme of this thread, this is also the same guy who stood on the tee of a well-designed centerline hazard / split fairway hole and exclaimed "What a stupid hole! You can hit a perfect drive down the middle and be in a bunker.' Some people do NOT enjoy complexity.
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Kevin,
Looks like when I drew my picture I was thinking about the plan drawings that Joe helpfully posted. I added a bit much to that second fairway but I guess it was just to create a similar effect to what was in the plans. Either way, I agree that the bunker was definitely not meant to be carried. I also did draw the original planned location of the tee, but you have to scroll the image to see it.
Does anyone have a link to the 1938 aerial? I can't find it anywhere. There's only this one, which I'm told is not a photo but a model of some sort (regardless of what Bethpage's own website says): https://www.bethpageproshop.com/photos/1938AerialView.jpg. I'll have to photograph the one hanging in the clubhouse next time I'm there.
Here's a blown up 1953:
(http://i175.photobucket.com/albums/w122/markfedeli/BPR131950.png)
Blown up even further, you could also say there may have been some second fairway there, at least within the lines i drew below. The color/consistency of the grass certainly doesn't change as it swings back around:
(http://i175.photobucket.com/albums/w122/markfedeli/BPR131950close.png)
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I'm glad this came up again. My thing with it is that there are basically six places you can hit it. Left trees, left fairway, center bunkers, right fairway, right rough or short of the center bunkers. Of those, the difficulty of the following shot from easiest to hardest is as follows:
left fairway
right fairway
right rough
short of the center bunkers
center bunkers
.
.
.
.
.
left trees
Of the fairway options, the ease of hitting each is in order:
short of the center bunkers
right fairway
left fairway
I always used to play short of the center bunkers, but I'd play it a little safe and then not focus and I ended up hitting 5 iron to the green all the time and it's offset against you and awkward, so I have dropped that option. So the best option is left fairway, but it's harder to hit than the right fairway and the risk of the left trees is pretty high. Hit it in there and you're playing a long third shot, virtually guaranteed. The right edge of the fairway as an aiming line gives me the safest set of options. I should hit either the fairway or the right rough. That rough is pretty light, so doesn't really hinder an approach shot all that much. Plus I hit my wedges pretty high, so that shot from out there can hold the green and worst case I have a chip or maybe a bunker shot.
Of course, with Mark's shot shape, hitting that right fairway is fairly hard and so I can certainly see how the left option works better for him. Takes all sorts.
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I'm glad this came up again. My thing with it is that there are basically six places you can hit it. Left trees, left fairway, center bunkers, right fairway, right rough or short of the center bunkers. Of those, the difficulty of the following shot from easiest to hardest is as follows:
left fairway
right fairway
right rough
short of the center bunkers
center bunkers
.
.
.
.
.
left trees
Of the fairway options, the ease of hitting each is in order:
short of the center bunkers
right fairway
left fairway
I always used to play short of the center bunkers, but I'd play it a little safe and then not focus and I ended up hitting 5 iron to the green all the time and it's offset against you and awkward, so I have dropped that option. So the best option is left fairway, but it's harder to hit than the right fairway and the risk of the left trees is pretty high. Hit it in there and you're playing a long third shot, virtually guaranteed. The right edge of the fairway as an aiming line gives me the safest set of options. I should hit either the fairway or the right rough. That rough is pretty light, so doesn't really hinder an approach shot all that much. Plus I hit my wedges pretty high, so that shot from out there can hold the green and worst case I have a chip or maybe a bunker shot.
Of course, with Mark's shot shape, hitting that right fairway is fairly hard and so I can certainly see how the left option works better for him. Takes all sorts.
:)
Michael, since we agree that the far right rough is a better place to be than the sides of the left fairway, I was worried you wouldn't give me anything to chew on. But I take exception to one thing you said above: "the best option is left fairway, but it's harder to hit than the right fairway"
If we're taking trees completely out of the equation and talking purely about hitting fairway, all things equal, I still disagree that any part of the right fairway is any easier to hit than the left. I think it only looks easier from the tee. Let's say that, because of the difference in carry requirements and angles to the green, the average player would need to have 125yds from the right fairway to equal the ease of approach he'd have at 140yds from the left fairway. To achieve that equality on the right, he would need a much more heroic drive: higher, longer, more precise. To wit:
(http://i175.photobucket.com/albums/w122/markfedeli/BPR13Shots.jpg)
Knowing my game, it's probably also no surprise to you that in some cases I would prefer to hit a 140yd punch shot from beneath the left trees than a 140yd shot with height from the center sand. So, I would rank the trees regular last and not . . . . . . . . . last.
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Ah but up the left, I'm aiming at the bit that's level with your target line on the right. At that point, that fairway is pretty darn narrow. And maybe it's just me, but a fairway that looks easier to hit normally is easier to hit if only for the psychological. I tense up when I aim down the left and frequently end up in those trees. There the rough is quite heavy and the trees hang down pretty low.
Having said all that, maybe there's some future in hitting to the wider shorter part of that left hand side. Might have to give that a go next time I'm there.
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Ah but up the left, I'm aiming at the bit that's level with your target line on the right. At that point, that fairway is pretty darn narrow. And maybe it's just me, but a fairway that looks easier to hit normally is easier to hit if only for the psychological. I tense up when I aim down the left and frequently end up in those trees. There the rough is quite heavy and the trees hang down pretty low.
Having said all that, maybe there's some future in hitting to the wider shorter part of that left hand side. Might have to give that a go next time I'm there.
oh, no doubt. you have the ability to carry it 260 in the air so that opens up more options for going right (as well as more options when missing right). my last bit was more about the average player who drives it a total of 240 or hits it low.
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I believe I read somewhere that Lawsonia Link's 13th had a split fairway in the area that is now large white pines. I always thought that would be interesting to restore that feature.
Talking with some fellow Wisconsinites and was told that most if not all of the trees on #13 at Lawsonia Links have been cut down this winter. Maybe my dream of restoring the double fairway is not so far fetched.
Steve Blake