Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture Discussion Group => Topic started by: M. Shea Sweeney on November 11, 2013, 02:57:45 PM
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http://www.golfsdrivingforce.com/2013/11/deane-bemans-remarks-at-usga-pace-of.html
Interesting thoughts. Will anyone listen?
Update- from the original article as highlighted on Geoff Shackelford's Blog-
The problem of slow play, as well as the decline in the growth and financial viability of golf in the U.S., has some of its seeds from the well-intended notion that in order to identify “a worthy champion” in major championships, it was necessary to alter the playing field to accomplish that objective.
The Red Sox won the World Series and they are the undisputed world champions of baseball. Baseball did not feel the need to add another 10 feet to get to first base, grow longer grass in the infield or move the home run fence farther out. They also have bifurcated rules that allow a designated hitter in one league versus the other and were able to make a mutual accommodation for the World Series for the good and harmony of the game. None of these actions would lessen the crown that Boston wears or harm baseball as a popular sport.
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Commissioner Beman was a very sharp fellow who insisted that not everything in golf should revolve around the Tour players' whims and the equipment companies who sponsored them.
Sadly, there is pretty much no one at the PGA TOUR today who cares to listen to what the former Commissioner has to say. The last of his top lieutenants from his days at the TOUR retired recently. But perhaps his comments will make some sense to Mike Davis, who understands equally well what's going on out there.
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Interesting read but why did he wait until he could do nothing about it? They should be aiming for a 3ball doing 18hole in three and a half hours or there abouts.
Jon
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Why do these guys always bark up the wrong tree?
Why are there foursomes at my club that play their 18 holes in 2.5 hours with no one holding them up?
And, why are there foursomes at my club that play their 18 holes in 4.5 hours with no one holding them up?
It's not because of bifurcation, length, forced carries, green size, talent, or any of the other suggestions the article puts forth.
As Arnold has said, if you are the slowest player in your group, then you are playing two slow.
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Interesting read but why did he wait until he could do nothing about it? They should be aiming for a 3ball doing 18hole in three and a half hours or there abouts.
Jon
His point is simply that it's impossible to play in 3:30 if they want fields of 144 within the TV confines. It's in the best interest of his players to have larger fields, and they need 2:10 of tee times off each tee to make 144 work.
If you only teed of #1, and started in 3balls at 7:00AM, the last group would tee off at 3:00, which doesn't work for at least half the year.
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As Arnold has said, if you are the slowest player in your group, then you are playing two slow.
We're not talking genius here, are we? This is an illogical quote. You are telling me that there is a slow player in your featured, 2.5 hour foursome?
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As Arnold has said, if you are the slowest player in your group, then you are playing two slow.
We're not talking genius here, are we? This is an illogical quote. You are telling me that there is a slow player in your featured, 2.5 hour foursome?
Perhaps one could be labelled illogical if they can't figure it out.
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I speak in certainties, while you insist on perhaps...there is no slow player in a 2.5 hour foursome. Any attempt to split that hair begs psychological treatment.
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Until we accept that many golfers play too fast we will never be able to address slow play.
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Interesting read but why did he wait until he could do nothing about it? They should be aiming for a 3ball doing 18hole in three and a half hours or there abouts.
Jon
His point is simply that it's impossible to play in 3:30 if they want fields of 144 within the TV confines. It's in the best interest of his players to have smaller fields, and they need 2:10 of tee times off each tee to make 144 work.
If you only teed of #1, and started in 3balls at 7:00AM, the last group would tee off at 3:00, which doesn't work for at least half the year.
I know where you are coming from Andrew and it would be easier if the Tour admitted that slow play helps make money but then they would be ripped apart for that. However if the playing time is 3.30 then you are looking at 8 minute tee time or first tee at 7am last tee at 1.24 pm which works all year round.
Jon
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tv golf is for tv. they (advertisers) pay a ton of money and are now on the air for the entire leaders 18h. the more time they get to fill with the high end products that pay the bills, the better. if you told travelers and the other companies that pay for the ads that they'd only get half the blocks because you'd prefer the golf to be over in 2/3rds of the time they now take, you would get stares and silence.
and a solution that tells them that they will get 3 hrs of tiger/phil and the other 2hrs of rory sabatini... they are not going to be happy paying the going rate because the majority of eyes will tend to leave if they don't see the big names out there on tv.
if there is a time problem, then the problem is localized, where it is up to members to make sure the play at their club moves along as they see fit.
i prefer 2.5hr operas to 90min. ;D
even the nfl is extending their tv blocks to 3 1/2 hrs when a couple years ago games rarely - if ever - went past 3hrs --- and they have a set time limit!!
it's all about tv time and tv is paid for by commercials. the more you get the more everyone makes.
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Mark,
that makes sense. I guess The Open Championship being on the BBC is the reason why they got round so quick this year.
Jon
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re: NFL game times being extended (as well other sports) for commericials
That's why I DVR and skip the commercials. I don't mind sitting through a few commercials (like the Masters) but the NFL and PGA Championship are unwatchable live due to the commercials.
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i'm just trying to say that the pga tour gains nothing by shortening up the time that it takes tiger to get his 18h in on sunday.
beman also throws out some points that don't stick with his argument. like the tennis nets not being raised at the us open... vs courses being toughened up for the golf us open - isn't this only because the usga wants to protect 'par'?
wasn't it long ago in britain the courses would adjust par on days depending on weather, etc. play marion as a par 64 :)
what is wrong with birdies? eagles?
if i want to watch bad golf i'll ask someone to video me and view that back when i'm at home.
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. . . even the nfl is extending their tv blocks to 3 1/2 hrs when a couple years ago games rarely - if ever - went past 3hrs --- and they have a set time limit!! it's all about tv time and tv is paid for by commercials. the more you get the more everyone makes.
I was just thinking about the same NFL analogy, too. My house is an easy walk, mile or so, to the stadium where the Carolina Panthers play. I rarely go. Why? All the waiting around for TV commercials just about every change of possession, during which time fans in the stadium are blasted with various kinds of noise - you can't even talk to the person next to you. The NFL games are made for TV, not the fan in the stadium, so why go to a game in person? The TV experience is much better. Exact same thing with PGA Tour golf. True, you can get a better feel for the course in person, but catching the action here and there on TV is much more convenient.
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I know where you are coming from Andrew and it would be easier if the Tour admitted that slow play helps make money but then they would be ripped apart for that. However if the playing time is 3.30 then you are looking at 8 minute tee time or first tee at 7am last tee at 1.24 pm which works all year round.
Jon
Thanks Jon
The conductor (PGA Tour) needs to require adherence to the tempo of the opera, er... tournament.
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As Arnold has said, if you are the slowest player in your group, then you are playing two slow.
We're not talking genius here, are we? This is an illogical quote.
You are telling me that there is a slow player in your featured, 2.5 hour foursome?
Ron, someone has to be the slowest player in the group.
Not necessarilly a slow player, just the slowest amongst the foursome.
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Interesting read but why did he wait until he could do nothing about it?
It's a great question.
They should be aiming for a 3ball doing 18hole in three and a half hours or there abouts.
Agreed.
The problem is the "culture" that's been created over the years and the proclivity for the viewer to emulate the best golfers in the world in terms of their manerisms and pace of play.
Jon
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Interesting read but why did he wait until he could do nothing about it?
It's a great question.
They should be aiming for a 3ball doing 18hole in three and a half hours or there abouts.
Agreed.
The problem is the "culture" that's been created over the years and the proclivity for the viewer to emulate the best golfers in the world in terms of their manerisms and pace of play.
Jon
It might be instructive to research how many slow play penalties were handed down during Beman's administration. Absent a large number, this is sort of a death-bed conversion and isn't all that interesting to me.
I don't know that a 3.5 hour pace is realistic, given what's at stake on Tour and the green speeds, etc; that's a pretty quick pace of play even for casual golf, and I've never played a tournament round in under 4 hours at the club level.
But certainly the pace of play on Tour is a major factor in the slow-play culture in the amateur game. ONLY when there are significant and consistent penalties on Tour will anything change, and that would be a wonderful day on several fronts. Play would speed up generally, and I could watch Furyk and Harrington and others play golf without screaming at them through my TV.
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AG,I agree with everything you said--the PGAT might have the most influence on pace of play but cares the least.
I'd be curious to hear Pat Burke's opinion on whether the PGAT would ever do anything drastic enough(penalty shots) to change things.Or,if they and the TV people are happy with things as they are.
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I don't know that a 3.5 hour pace is realistic, given what's at stake on Tour and the green speeds, etc; that's a pretty quick pace of play even for casual golf, and I've never played a tournament round in under 4 hours at the club level.
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From time to time some of the quick players draw the first tee time of the day, and go out and play their rounds in two hours. So perhaps 3.5 hours is glacial compared to what they are capable of even given what's at stake.
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Slow play comes down to the question of what do you mean by the phrase "to play golf". For some people, including a very few Tour players, it is very close to "hit the ball, find the ball, hit it again". But the normative belief nowadays is that conversations with a caddie or playing companion about the shot at hand, tossing grass in the air, puzzling over yardage books or electronic equivalent, approaching and backing off from the ball several times, practice swings, staring blankly into the middle distance while getting your mental checklist completed...
...all of these things comprise "playing golf" to most golfers. This is because they are told that on television and in the idiotic magazines they read, they see it demonstrated by Tour players on TV as well as the guys at their golf course every weekend and it just generally gets reinforced like any other social norm. The highly paid gentlemen with PhD's bolstering all this nonsense are simply jumping on the bandwagon but they do add an aura of rationality to what in fact is just a bunch of procrastination.
Trying to change any one element of that in hopes of setting off a chain reaction or "tipping point" seem futile to me. But I guess better to try that than just give up and accept every round of golf playing the USA to take 6+ hours a decade hence.
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I may be incorrect, but I thought I'd read somewhere years ago that Jack Nicklaus got the idea for mapping out course yardages/hazards etc in a pocket notebook from Dean Beman? Searching for exact or near-exact yardages, some may say one of the main contributors to the slowing down in the pace of play?
All the best
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I'm not sure why the discussion is all about the Tour. Here is the bottom line-- if you have never played in a big tournament then you will not understand why it takes 5 hours to play golf on the PGA Tour. 5 Hours is not bad.
The better discussion would be over DB's remarks on bifurcation, and how that changes the maintenance and architecture of golf courses.
Why do the ruling bodies have such a hallowed grip on "one set of rules". Does the average golfer, and you all on this website believe the Tour player, and guys at the Buda Cup are playing by the same set of rules anyway? For that matter, tourny's on the club pro level?
Give me a break--YOU'RE ALREADY PLAYING A BIFURCATED SET OF RULES!!!!!
Dean Deman's remarks on maintenance and architecture were so spot on. It is a must read.
Length, width, size of bunkers, outrageous native area's (but they look sooo good ::)), courses devoid of strategy--
The problem with the everyday golfer is that they are playing courses that are TOO MUCH for them!!!!!
Garland Bailey, why on earth should we be promoting 2.5 hour rounds? 3.5, 3.75, 4..fine. But it will only happen on a course that allows for it!!
ie: Bethpage Black effect
Recently played 36 Holes at Palmetto Golf Club on a day of a huge outing of everybody played 18++ holes. And we teed off at 9:50! No ranger, no time checks, 100+ bets, still got it done. Why? Because the course allows for it.
MS
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I may be incorrect, but I thought I'd read somewhere years ago that Jack Nicklaus got the idea for mapping out course yardages/hazards etc in a pocket notebook from Dean Beman? Searching for exact or near-exact yardages, some may say one of the main contributors to the slowing down in the pace of play?
All the best
I thought it was from Ben Hogan.
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Garland Bailey, why on earth should we be promoting 2.5 hour rounds? 3.5, 3.75, 4..fine. But it will only happen on a course that allows for it!!
ie: Bethpage Black effect
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I guess I don't know which of my comments you are referencing here. If it is the tour rounds in 2 hours, all courses allow tour rounds in 2 hours unless the player calls for a ruling. And that includes Bethpage Black.
If you are referencing my comment about the same unoccupied course being played in 2.5 hours and 4.5 hours by different foursomes. Then clearly the course referenced allows for it. That is completely beside the point. The point is that the difference is in players habits. The unfortunate thing is that when you tell the players that cause the 4.5 hour rounds that they are slow players, they don't believe they are. I've been thinking of developing an app for timing the individual players in a foursome. The proof is in the pudding as they say. ;)
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I think it was indeed Dean Beman who Jack specifically adopted his approach to yardages from. It was payed attention to by many players much earlier than that of course (perhaps including Hogan) but it was Beman's particularly detailed and organized approach that Jack adopted early in his career.
Thomas, I think you confuse knowing how far one is standing from the hole with standing around puzzling over infinite permutations of distances to multiple points on the course. There's no reason knowing ones distance from the green or distance from the hole has to take any longer than not knowing. It's the conversations, double-checking, over-thinking and general fussiness ABOUT those yardages that turns into several minutes per shot for some people.
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I think it was indeed Dean Beman who Jack specifically adopted his approach to yardages from. It was payed attention to by many players much earlier than that of course (perhaps including Hogan) but it was Beman's particularly detailed and organized approach that Jack adopted early in his career.
Thomas, I think you confuse knowing how far one is standing from the hole with standing around puzzling over infinite permutations of distances to multiple points on the course. There's no reason knowing ones distance from the green or distance from the hole has to take any longer than not knowing. It's the conversations, double-checking, over-thinking and general fussiness ABOUT those yardages that turns into several minutes per shot for some people.
No confusion from me, I said "some may say" not 'me say'!
BTW, have a look 5 mins and 30 secs into this yee olde film of Harry Vardon and Ted Ray from 1914 as first posted back in October by Bryan Izatt - http://ssa.nls.uk/film/3007 - amazing in this day and age to see the speed of their shot assessment followed by the speed of their play - and Ol' Harry and Ol' Ted only won a mere 9 Pro-Majors between them, and that back in the days when there were only two pro-Majors per year.
All the best.
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Garland Bailey, why on earth should we be promoting 2.5 hour rounds? 3.5, 3.75, 4..fine. But it will only happen on a course that allows for it!!
ie: Bethpage Black effect
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I guess I don't know which of my comments you are referencing here. If it is the tour rounds in 2 hours, all courses allow tour rounds in 2 hours unless the player calls for a ruling. And that includes Bethpage Black.
If you are referencing my comment about the same unoccupied course being played in 2.5 hours and 4.5 hours by different foursomes. Then clearly the course referenced allows for it. That is completely beside the point. The point is that the difference is in players habits. The unfortunate thing is that when you tell the players that cause the 4.5 hour rounds that they are slow players, they don't believe they are. I've been thinking of developing an app for timing the individual players in a foursome. The proof is in the pudding as they say. ;)
GB-
I don't want this to go into a petty argument, but you can't play Bethpage Black in 2 Hours. Won't happen. Have played 50+ rounds a BB, 35 sleeping in a car and getting the first few tee times. All collegiate players playing in a good clip. 4:00-5:00 for 4ball, maybe a 2 ball can go round in 3:15-3:45.
Top tier tournament golf is not played in 2.5 hours. It happens occasionally when the player gets the draw, and is not in contention. Tournament golf requires thought, REAL thought. What most golfers do not do.
Not saying it can't happen faster than it is--it can. But I think this is exactly the point--the tour and what's going on in everyday play SHOULD NOT BE THE COMPARISON--the two do not belong in the same sentence.
If you want to talk about the tour players providing a good example, then ok, I get it. But for those of us running a golf course it comes down to educating our student's on how to play and getting the golf course set up correctly, and hopefully the canvas allows for it.
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MSS,
We'll just have to agree to disagree.
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GB-
I don't want this to go into a petty argument, but you can't play Bethpage Black in 2 Hours.
Won't happen.
Have played 50+ rounds a BB, 35 sleeping in a car and getting the first few tee times.
All collegiate players playing in a good clip. 4:00-5:00 for 4ball, maybe a 2 ball can go round in 3:15-3:45.
MSS, I'd agree, but, they're part of the problem.
The culture of golf, at competitive levels, has devolved into excrutiatingly long rounds.
I'd be willing to bet that my group of characters could play the course in under 3:00 without much difficulty.
While BPB is massive in scale, it's not much longer than GCGC, just down the road.
Granted that GCGC is more compact, green to tee, it's the culture, not the topography and/or design that prohibits fast play.
Top tier tournament golf is not played in 2.5 hours.
I completely agree, but, it shouldn't be played in 6.0, 5.5 or 5.0 either.
Slow play has become an erosive force that was allowed to become pervasive in tournament golf by the governing bodies.
They're all guilty, from the national level down to the regional and state level and ultimately, to the local level.
Now, it's not so easy to put the genie back in the bottle.
But, it can be done, if the governing bodies have the will, and I don't think they do.
Talk is cheap.
Put me in charge and I'd guarantee you that within five years, play would be at an acceptable pace.
It happens occasionally when the player gets the draw, and is not in contention.
Tournament golf requires thought, REAL thought. What most golfers do not do.
"Course management" requires thought, real thought, but, I'm not so sure that the act of hitting the ball requires that much thought for the skilled golfer who's hit a hundred thousand or more practice balls.
Not saying it can't happen faster than it is--it can. But I think this is exactly the point--the tour and what's going on in everyday play SHOULD NOT BE THE COMPARISON--the two do not belong in the same sentence.
Agreed
If you want to talk about the tour players providing a good example, then ok, I get it.
But for those of us running a golf course it comes down to educating our student's on how to play and getting the golf course set up correctly, and hopefully the canvas allows for it.
I think an inherent problem with slow play is that the retail or country club golfer wants to emulate the best golfers in the world, and I understand that, unfortunately, emulating them also includes their pace of play.
If I watch TV this week and the PGA Tour players start putting with one foot off the ground and affixed to the inside of their knee you can bet, within a week, that thousands of golfers will be trying that putting style (including me ;D)
When those you look up to are part of the problem, it's difficult to disengage your everyday golfer and his habits, from those he's trying to emulate.
Thus, the governing bodies have to be the ones to promote and enforce fast play.
ANGC might be a great place to start. ;D
And, just think, play began to slow down when they banned the Stymie.
Bring back the STYMIE ;D
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Matt Ward's take:
http://www.mynegm.com/golf/whats-news/usga-slow-play-symposium/
My article:
http://myphillygolf.com/detail.asp?id=2392&pid=11
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I find the argument in favour of 5+ hour rounds for tour/top flight ams perplexing. I can fully understand the issue where tv is concerned because advertising is so important, but that has nothing to do with "it should take that long". All US sports are slowed down for tv and golf is no different. Only golfers are somehow special because once they become great they need more time for some reason - sometimes more time than a commercial break :P. I am definitely one ex tour watcher solely because they play so slowly. If I want to catch a nap, there are few better ways to do so than an afternoon "watching" the tour on tv - it bores me to sleep.
Ciao
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Here in the UK we pay a TV licence which pays for the BBC which in turn produces quality (some of the time) programmes and no adverts. The Open Championship is shown on the BBC and the pace of play (at least this year) was pretty good. So I can see the argument about advertisers and sponsors wanting slower player is probably true.
For amateur play I would imagine that in the US the requirement to return a card for every round played (absolute nuts :() would make play slower. Here in the Scottish Highlands I cannot recall the last time it to over 3.5 hours to play 18.
Jon
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Aye Jon,
A quick roond and time enough for a wee dram!
Cheers Colin
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GB-
I don't want this to go into a petty argument, but you can't play Bethpage Black in 2 Hours.
Won't happen.
Have played 50+ rounds a BB, 35 sleeping in a car and getting the first few tee times.
All collegiate players playing in a good clip. 4:00-5:00 for 4ball, maybe a 2 ball can go round in 3:15-3:45.
MSS, I'd agree, but, they're part of the problem.
The culture of golf, at competitive levels, has devolved into excrutiatingly long rounds.
I'd be willing to bet that my group of characters could play the course in under 3:00 without much difficulty.
While BPB is massive in scale, it's not much longer than GCGC, just down the road.
Granted that GCGC is more compact, green to tee, it's the culture, not the topography and/or design that prohibits fast play.
Top tier tournament golf is not played in 2.5 hours.
I completely agree, but, it shouldn't be played in 6.0, 5.5 or 5.0 either.
Slow play has become an erosive force that was allowed to become pervasive in tournament golf by the governing bodies.
They're all guilty, from the national level down to the regional and state level and ultimately, to the local level.
Now, it's not so easy to put the genie back in the bottle.
But, it can be done, if the governing bodies have the will, and I don't think they do.
Talk is cheap.
Put me in charge and I'd guarantee you that within five years, play would be at an acceptable pace.
It happens occasionally when the player gets the draw, and is not in contention.
Tournament golf requires thought, REAL thought. What most golfers do not do.
"Course management" requires thought, real thought, but, I'm not so sure that the act of hitting the ball requires that much thought for the skilled golfer who's hit a hundred thousand or more practice balls.
Not saying it can't happen faster than it is--it can. But I think this is exactly the point--the tour and what's going on in everyday play SHOULD NOT BE THE COMPARISON--the two do not belong in the same sentence.
Agreed
If you want to talk about the tour players providing a good example, then ok, I get it.
But for those of us running a golf course it comes down to educating our student's on how to play and getting the golf course set up correctly, and hopefully the canvas allows for it.
I think an inherent problem with slow play is that the retail or country club golfer wants to emulate the best golfers in the world, and I understand that, unfortunately, emulating them also includes their pace of play.
If I watch TV this week and the PGA Tour players start putting with one foot off the ground and affixed to the inside of their knee you can bet, within a week, that thousands of golfers will be trying that putting style (including me ;D)
When those you look up to are part of the problem, it's difficult to disengage your everyday golfer and his habits, from those he's trying to emulate.
Thus, the governing bodies have to be the ones to promote and enforce fast play.
ANGC might be a great place to start. ;D
And, just think, play began to slow down when they banned the Stymie.
Bring back the STYMIE ;D
The men's golf team from UNC Charlotte is permitted access to my course (Carolina Golf Club) on Wednesday mornings during the fall and spring. The young men usually play in either twosomes or threesomes depending on how many kids the coach brings and how many tee times we make available to them (2 or 3). They of course walk and carry their own bags. Coach walks with each of the groups and observes. I have observed these young players (talented players too, mind you) on numerous occasions and I can tell you the future of professional golf will only be getting slower. These guys take FOREVER to play golf. I have NEVER witnessed one player ever putt out, they always mark and wait even for the shortest of tap-ins. I mentioned these observations of mine to our Head Golf Professional over lunch one day. Our pro played collegiately at Lamar back in the 90's and he tells me back then coaches DRILLED into their players to go through their entire routine before every shot, even the shortest of putts...because if you miss a two-footer because you didn't take your time, and that one shot cost your team a match it would be your "head on a platter" so to speak. Thus the kids coming through the collegiate ranks today are just going to continue the current slow trend, which I find unfortunate.
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??? ??? ???
What am I missing , the majority of viewers don't watch golf on Thursday or Friday , but do so on the weekend . So why the argument about 144 players . Isn't there a cut for weekends?
Hello
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Yardage books started in the amateur ranks in the '50's and one can credit a gentleman by the name of Gene Andrews, Deane probably picked it up as it trickled down from Gene.
Hogan was not big on yardages. He always felt that every shot had a look, a certain " feel" to it. He would say, " Hell, I might want a four iron from 155"
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Yardage books started in the amateur ranks in the '50's and one can credit a gentleman by the name of Gene Andrews, Deane probably picked it up as it trickled down from Gene.
Hogan was not big on yardages. He always felt that every shot had a look, a certain " feel" to it. He would say, " Hell, I might want a four iron from 155"
But did Hogan want to know that it was 155?
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The Red Sox won the World Series and they are the undisputed world champions of baseball.
On the other hand, they do make the game last a lot longer... Boston's insistence at only swinging at pitches in the strike zone resulted in 1-0 games taking 3.5+ hours... In their case, it is done to gain competitive advantage.. to get starting pitchers like Justin Verlander out of the game and into the opposition bullpen. Expect more of the same next season from the Red Sox and other teams...
The competitive advantage created by slow play on the golf course is dubious at best. On the professional level, it is most likely caused by the swing gurus and other headshrinkers who construct a one minute pre-shot routine for every shot. It makes sense for dealing with the pressure of the back nine on Sunday, but most of them go with it straight out of the gate on Thursday morning.
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Perhaps improving pace of play needs some drastic out of the box thinking; Enforcing some new rules that would hardly change the game for amateurs who play at a decent pace, but that would change pace of play for pro's and amateurs in tournaments dramatically. For instance:
* The Flag always stays in the hole.
* You are not allowed on the green until your ball is on the green.
* In 3/4ball play: Usage of yardage books is only allowed if it is not your turn to play.
* Maximum 2 practice strokes/swings
* If a 3 ball loose more than a hole on the previous group AND take longer than 4 hours, a stroke is added to the score of all members of the group. (Yes the slower player will hurt the others in the group theoretically, but watch what peer pressure will accomplish)
These rules would save round times by almost an hour per 4ball I reckon, on any course. It sounds drastic, but if you think of it, it is not really that dramatic. Any disadvantages to scoring opportunities would be equal to all players. So what if everybody would score one or two strokes more on average? I would much rather watch a tournament under these rules and I would surely rather play on a course where everybody abides by these rules.
What other simple rules can improve pace of play?
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If you have never played top tier golf and actually had to play for something then I promise you can't understand why it takes longer in that venue, so it's not worth arguing.
WITH THAT SAID---the top player would do better to play more off instinct then second guess--- where the problems really start internally and externally (slow play).
Blame whatever you want for that, but I bet one of you is a JACK LOVER--go watch the 71 US Open--how was that pace of play? . The players in the "golden age" were working with complex idea's--- the idea that technicality in the game is new is total bullshit. The players in the by gone era's were probably more technical then today's players---and get this-- they did it without a video camera and $30,000 missile radar!!
Get this straight--I AM BY NO MEANS CONDOING SLOW PLAY ON THE PGA TOUR. It happens to be part of the game, and the ENTIRE point of the thread is to highlight that we need not focus as much energy to the tour as our OWN clubs and courses.
To FOCUS on the BULLSHIT MAINTENANCE practiced by so many clubs that is directly contributing to slow play. Get the KNOW NOTHING Green Chairman's OUT. If I play one more New York Metro course with NATIVE that squeezes the life out of another one of these beauties I am going to PUKE. BIG UPs to Shinnecock for getting this right.
Trim the menacing limbs that encroach play and take away strategy. WIDEN THE COORIDORS. Get this--SLOW THE GREENS DOWN. :o :o :o
Yea, let's get the tour playing faster. I AM WITH YOU. But there's a reason why my slow ass 4 ball playing with more bets that most on this website see in a year could play 36 holes at the GREAT Palmetto Golf Club after sleeping in and playing amongst a 100 player outing all playing 27+ holes!!