Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture Discussion Group => Topic started by: Sean_A on November 02, 2013, 07:29:28 PM
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I had the good fortune to visit North Carolina for a week or so. Of course, golf was on the cards; revisits to revamped Mid-Pines and Old Town plus a look at Dormie Club and a local Raleigh course - Wildwood Green. I visited a few interesting tourista sights along the way. Some of it enlightenining and some downright puzzling. Lets just say the Scots ain't got nothing on the Carolina folk when it comes to deep fried "food" :o .
The day after landing at RDU we made our way to Southern Pines. First up, Mid-Pines. I think of all the Donald Ross courses in the Sandhills, Mid-Pines remains the only example whereby all the holes are in the same place and order as Ross designed; this is quite remarkable considering Mid-Pines opened in 1921. The other extraordinary aspect of the course are the greens; they were never changed, so for the most part what we have are essentially the greens that Ross floated out. Of course, the K Franz renovation recaptured some of the lost greenspace which in many cases reveal the best or most difficult hole locations. The sense of space and width offered on what I think is about a 100 acre golf course is truly spectacular. In addition to the greens, the renovation saw the removal of trees, the creation of short grass around tees and the reintroduction of sandy areas on the periphary of the holes.
MID-PINES I&GC
The card reflects the simple demeanor of the course.
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Map of the course.
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The course says hello in spectacular fashion with a moderate length down n' up par 4.
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The green is deceptively uphill. At least one extra club will be needed for the approach and (hopefully) the uphill putt.
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The short 2nd too is a very good hole without being exceptional; an apt description for the entirety of Mid-Pines.
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The funky third has serious drainage problems which will hopefully be sorted out in the next few years. As of now, the hole merely serves as a gateway to the 4th, possibly the best and only great hole on the course. Playing uphill for its entire 330 yards (from the tips), the green is reachable, but a high number is there for the ill-advised golfer.
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Many tee shots will roll to the extreme right side of the fairway leaving a heroic shot to anywhere on the green, although a back hole location as seen in the photo is especially dicey.
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5 & 6 are back to back 5s which so far as that concept goes works alright as a couplet. The water is quite jarring on #5 as it can come into play for big hitters.
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A very attractive tee shot, one can just make out the mess of bunkers protecting the approach and 6th green.
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By the 7th I noticed a preponderance of left to right doglegs. Wondering if the course was going to follow this pattern throughout, I discovered the front mainly plays left to right while the back plays right to left. Generally, the fairways are wide enough to negate much of the advantage either way, but there is always the preference to the eye issue which is often overlooked.
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The 8th is a curious short hole, very reminiscent of the style one would find in the UK. The hole is innocent looking until a sideview of the green reveals its true nature.
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Nine is a short two-shotter heading back toward the house. At the turn and down the 10th the golfer can admire the outbuildings. Instead of upgrading to a modern homogenized resort style, the buildings have retained the charm of yesteryear. The 10th plays blindly over a crest, but it is the second which is interesting. There is a nest of bunkers/waste areas protecting the lay-up and green, but its difficult to make out their precise positions. A word about the bunkers and waste areas, apparently there are (I believe) 13 or 14 bunkers and these are identified as islands amonst grass. The waste areas run into the pine needles; in these areas the club can be grounded. I thought this was a clever way to delineate the two and make rulings simple. One question though, we had a player jammed under the lip of a waste area. There was some question as to the possibility of taking a penalty drop two club lengths no closer to the hole, but outside the waste area. That sounded right to me, but we never had the idea confirmed. Anyway, the approach to the 10th after a lay-up.
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#11 is another short hole and one that reminded me a bit of a simplified version of Old Town's 6th.
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I have a lot of time for the 12th; a sharpish legger left with probably the most severe green on the course.
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The next four holes don't really do much for me as a group. All are very competent holes, but don't add much to the course. The 13th is a banger par 3. 14 runs just below a ridge and calls for a right to left tee shot. The fifteenth is a three-shotter with an oddly circular green. It seems to me the green should spill left down the hill a bit. 16 is a sweeping downhill legger to the left. It is the 17th which really gets the course back on track. Turning hard right, there are great deceptive waste areas to the right. The prime driving zone is down the right for the green will not accept a shot from the safe driving zone to the left.
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The approach from the left of the fairway seems harmless, but that is far from the case.
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The home hole too is terrific. Not quite as severe a turn to the left as the 16th, but less generous off the tee.
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The green seems as if it broke free of trees and rests in a natural amphitheatre.
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While very impressive, Mid-Pines does have a repetitive nature with the left/right waste areas featured so often. Additionally, the length of the fours seem to be lacking in variety. On the positive side, the greens are very good, the walk is splendid, there are handsome views on offer, there is plenty of width to get all classes of players around the course in a timely manner and perhaps most of important of all, Mid Pines now feels like a Sand Hills course. Prior to the recent restoration and as is the case with many other courses in the area, the sandy nature of the site(s) were allowed to hibernate. While I am not keen on too much sand, it has to be better than wall to wall bermuda rough. Finally, I am impressed the design not only offers two loops of nine holes, but one can also play a few boozers loops which include 1-4; 1, 6, 17-18; 1, 6-9; 10-12, 7-9 and obviously a few longer loops. This must be a great boon for the members looking to bounce around visiting parties. The resort should be heartily commended for their efforts and lets hope the work eventually includes the awkward water hazard and drainage on #3. If Mid Pines were private, I reckon it would make an outstanding members course. 1* 2013
Ciao
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Sean,
I played Mid Pines after the Dixie Cup last month and really enjoyed the golf course. I would certainly include it on a return trip to Pinehurst.
I was quite enamoured with the new bunkering and rough removal, both more fitting to the sand hills setting. The tree clearing that was undertaken has given the course a very roomy feel, and opened up nice golf course views throughout the property. The felled trees allowed for the close proximity of greens & tees to be more greatly appreciated, namely the cluster of tees and greens at No. 1, 2, 5 & 6 and again at No. 7, 8, 11 & 12. The green surrounds bled into the adjacent tees which helps make the course feel whole, rather than 18 different parts. The added benefit of better air circulation and sunlight will prove beneficial to turf conditions for a good long while. The walk was excellent and the course full of good, solid holes, but nothing overly spectacular. I found the greens, while in very good condition, a little too subtle for my liking (faster green speeds would likely have alleviated this somewhat), with a notable exception to No. 7 which has some prominent internal contour. The other drawbacks which you noted, was the drainage on No. 3 fairway & the pond in the lay-up zone on No. 5.
TK
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Splendid tour Sean. Most impressive. Thanks for sharing. Greens very 'green' - occasional maintenance I presume.
All the best
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Another excellent tour Sean. Interesting looking course.
Jon
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Splendid tour Sean. Most impressive. Thanks for sharing. Greens very 'green' - occasional maintenance I presume.
All the best
If the greens are an ultradwarf bermuda, which they appear to be, they've already begun the winter "coloring process." This must be done well in advance of the turf actually going dormant. Much better than overseeding for the turf and the player.
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Splendid tour Sean. Most impressive. Thanks for sharing. Greens very 'green' - occasional maintenance I presume.
All the best
If the greens are an ultradwarf bermuda, which they appear to be, they've already begun the winter "coloring process." This must be done well in advance of the turf actually going dormant. Much better than overseeding for the turf and the player.
It was on the early morning of 10/10, a drizzly day with the dye getting on everything. Annoying, but necessary? Other than color/aesthetics, does it serve a purpose? The greens are MiniVerde. They were firm but not particularly fast. Most of the break is created by the back to front slope, which, with many of the greens sited on high ground (numerous downhill drives and uphill approaches), can be considerable. Enjoyable course with a very welcoming staff. I'd bet that Sean felt right at home even without a "proper English lunch".
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Sean, thanks very much for the photo tour...
I leave this Thursday for a long weekend at Pinehurst and Mid-Pines - I am playing #2 on Friday and then playing Mid Pines with my hickories and McIntrye ball over the weekend.
I will post some photos from the weekend and report back...
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Tyler
Yes, the greens were a bit slow when we played, but I expect they will speed up going into winter. I wonder if they were painted? The colour seemed a bit unnatural to my eye.
Sweet Lou
I did plan for a fine lunch, alas, my driver, the man who was later found to be drunk with head in hands, decided it was better to wing it for directions. Result; chili dogs on the run.
Golf's Most Beloved Figure made an appearance for dinner and to show us round a few local pubs, one of which was the rather odd Wine Cellar in Southern Pines. I reckon this is the new way to do wine cafes, stacks of wine with a counter available for inbibing; I rather enjoyed it, though I kept turning around hoping to get a glimpse of what was on sale. However, GMBF kept us too busy for browsing. The next stop was the Jefferson Inn where a tattooed lass from Bama was serving drinks. Suffice it to say, the bar had a strange clientele which reminded me of Detrot's Cass Corridor back in the day. Anyway, things in the S Pines Corridor seemed to be winding down so I took my very drunk pal back to his room - we were due on the tee for 9:30.
DORMIE CLUB
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About 5 miles north of Pinehurst, Coore & Crenshaw's design very much expouses the philosophy of Donald Ross; wide corridors and options. This was my first C&C course and I wasn't disappointed. I expected slopes, both in fairway and greens, to play a prominent role in the design and I wasn't wrong. The greens are generally fairly large and sloping rather than having a lot of contour. Earning the best angle in definitely pays dividends as most of the approaches can be tackled via air or ground. While the terrain is similar to Mid-Pines, the layout and feel of Dormie is far different. The course is on a huge site with 100 feet of elevation change and two lakes. An added benefit for the course is the housing phase is in a holding pattern. The house is a complete contrast to the site, it is diminutive, but very much in a positive way. If a tranquil experience was the goal of the developers, it was achieved in spades.
The view down #1 sets an admirable tone for the day. The fairway bunkers are well short of the green and difficult to reach from the tee. They do serve to cause yardage confusion, especially for those out of position.
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The approach is deceptively uphill.
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The second karooms left as if around a bank at Daytona. There are a few holes of this ilk and perhaps C&C got a bit carried away with this style. The short par four 3rd opens up considerably, but in practice, when the hole is cut in the rear of the green, there is little spare room.
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More to follow.
Ciao
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playing Mid Pines with my hickories and McIntrye ball over the weekend.
Anthony,
Thanks for the info ref winter colouring process. Is this practice common in this (or indeed other) parts of the US?
Chris,
which McIntyre ball do you use with your hickories and how does play in comparison to a modern (soft spec type) ball? Post photos of hickories too!
Sean,
Really enjoyed the Mid Pines tour. Looking to the forward rest of the Dormie Club.
All the best
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Splendid tour Sean. Most impressive. Thanks for sharing. Greens very 'green' - occasional maintenance I presume.
All the best
If the greens are an ultradwarf bermuda, which they appear to be, they've already begun the winter "coloring process." This must be done well in advance of the turf actually going dormant. Much better than overseeding for the turf and the player.
It was on the early morning of 10/10, a drizzly day with the dye getting on everything. Annoying, but necessary? Other than color/aesthetics, does it serve a purpose? The greens are MiniVerde. They were firm but not particularly fast. Most of the break is created by the back to front slope, which, with many of the greens sited on high ground (numerous downhill drives and uphill approaches), can be considerable. Enjoyable course with a very welcoming staff. I'd bet that Sean felt right at home even without a "proper English lunch".
It does serve a purpose. The color allows the mini verde to hold temperature longer and in the spring, warm up quicker. Painting of the turf is far greater than overseeding when it comes to playability. I'm sure that they are raising up the height of cut on greens to get a thick, healthier plant for the winter months.
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Thomas,
I play the Ouimet Ball - a photo is below...
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It is a mesh pattern replica, which was played between 1905-1930. As far as playability goes, I really like it and prefer it to a modern-day 'soft-spec ball.'
I wouldn't classify myself as an excellent hickory player (or modern-age player for that matter) - so to say I am looking for a competitive advantage when selecting my ball for my hickories would be an overstatement. I would guess that a modern day ball might be a little longer and straighter, but I have played so few rounds with a modern ball that I am only speculating. I will say that the McIntyre ball is certainly more cream-colored than the modern day balls, so finding them in the hay is a little more challenging.
I will send photos of my clubs and Mid-Pines next week - my set is all Tom Stewart's with the exception of my brassie...
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Sean - I found that back pin position on 3 at Dormie to be one of the easiest. There is a backboard and sideboards on both sides. While the green is not drivable there is a lot of strategy off the tee. Do you want a shorter shot that is easier to control or that you can run up the slopes of the green? Are willing to challenge the fairway bunker to do that and gain a better angle? A really good hole that would be fun to play on a continuous basis.
Also, I agree that the hard banking right to left fairway was overdone.
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playing Mid Pines with my hickories and McIntrye ball over the weekend.
Anthony,
Thanks for the info ref winter colouring process. Is this practice common in this (or indeed other) parts of the US?
Chris,
which McIntyre ball do you use with your hickories and how does play in comparison to a modern (soft spec type) ball? Post photos of hickories too!
Sean,
Really enjoyed the Mid Pines tour. Looking to the forward rest of the Dormie Club.
All the best
Thomas,
It is becoming more and more common to paint ultradwarfs instead of seeding. The benefits far outweigh the negatives, especially in the fall months when the conditions are perfect to enjoy golf and you're not having to play on wet, slow, soft greens as the overseed grows in. It's also much better at transition time as there is not any transition.
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For those wondering, the lines running down the fairways at +/- 18" intervals at Dormie are a result of injections to combat a nematode infestation in the turf.
TK
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Sean,
Those two fairway bunkers short of the green on No. 1 are definitely out-of-play from the tee, and I wondered about them after a first play. The second round saw my playing partners trying to extricate balls from each bunker, a result of being out-of-position from the tee and a legitimate second shot hazard for shorter hitters. Those "randomly" placed hazards Coore & Crenshaw build seem to have a propensity for gathering poorly thought-out or executed strokes.
I thought the third green was absolutely wonderful, and I witnessed a ball slalom down a few of those tiers after being played from the back bunker with not enough authority. There appears to be an infinite number of exciting putts on this green.
TK
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Steve
We fooled around the third green for a spell and both reckoned mid left (with a great back plate), where the far left ball is located in the pic was the easiest hole location for any random shot from the fairway. The back hole location requires a very precise shot from the left of the fairway. Anything from the right side of the fairway is problematic for any approach, but especially to the back of the green.
Tyler
I really admire bunkers like the two on #1. Its a modern take on the cross bunker, many of which still serve an excellent purpose in harrasing recovery shots from a less than good drive.
DORMIE CLUB CONT
It is hard to top the third, but maybe the fourth does. As on #2, the fairway slings left and has protecting sand on the corner. The bunkers look small, but the land sort of feeds into the sand. Besides, I am not sure getting tight to the sand is desireable. It may be better to go straight and then use the left green-side slope to kill an approach. However, I don't know how far one needs to drive to take advantage of the slope. I expect flat bellies just plow it down the centre and are left with a finicky pitch. To be fair, I am not sure how the finicky pitch can be avoided. Because the green was in shadows, I didn't have a clue as to how much slope fed into the green. At some point, the ball essentially wanders straight down the slope. The front hole location shown struck me as particularly evil. Other than capping off great back to back holes, I was amazed the hole measured 415 yards from the blue tee; it played far shorter.
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Just an incredible amount of short grass surrounding the green.
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While five is definitely a different look for a water hole, I didn't care for it. That said, it is a clever hole with wonderful geen running away from the fairway! The blind tee shot par five 6th didn't really do it for me, but it is different. The trouble up the right can be had, but many will play safer left leaving an awkward second. Its difficult to correctly guess how much the ball will roll down the slope for the approach. I suspect this hole would grow on me with further plays.
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We then make the long walk to the 7th. This brings up my only real issue about the design; other than the turbo boost holes turning left. There are a few long walks between greens and tees, plus some horrid natural areas which cannot be negotiated in front of tees. More than once I tried going through the natural areas only to be turned back by swampy conditions. Avoiding these areas essentially means a walk down a cart path. I didn't care for this off-course feeling. This is a great pity because the property is magnificent. The owners should visit Addington to see how a course with tough terrain can be transformed by boardwalks and bridges. Back to the hole at hand, this long par 3 gives the impression of exhibiting Redan-like qualities, but it doesn't really kick right.
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The 8th is yet another turbo boost hole swinging to the left. At 472 yards from the Blue tees one had better get a boost! The side ends with an attractive shortish one-shotter. The green is quite interesting as it flows downhill from the right.
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#9 from the 10th tee. The tier in the green can just be made out.
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More to follow.
Ciao
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Sean,
I echo your sentiments regarding the 4th. I really like the use of counter slopes especially in the relationship between the approach and the green surrounds. The day we played, the pin was in the same position as your photo. I would imagine that when the course is playing f&f, using the slope left of the green (with the right shot shape) could get your ball pretty close to even that front right hole location. Missing the green to the right, into what may be the deepest bunker on the course (?), would seem to be an absolute no-no.
The 4th may have been my favorite hole on the course, featuring a fun (if not especially difficult) drive, and an interesting approach to the sloping green.
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If #4 at Mid Pines is possibly the only great hole on the course, is it also the stealthiest? How else to explain that you took no pictures of it?
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Ron,
Both of the above pictures are of No. 4 at Mid Pines.
TK
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Sean,
The pictures do no justice to the severity of the feeder slope into No. 4 at Dormie.
The fifth green also features a fair amount of left-to-right slope, meaning the fun is only beginning once the ball lands on the green.
What did you think of the 2-3 trees along the left side of the hole corridor on No. 8? The terrain and turbo boost seem to demand a draw from the tee, but those trees block a direct line to the green from this ideal spot. Given the distance to the green, going over wasn't really an option, but Coore & Crenshaw certainly provided room right of the green for a big drawing approach - it just seemed to ask too much for a well executed drive. I witnessed a number of approaches played after solid drives finished left of the one shown in the photo below.
(http://i1287.photobucket.com/albums/a631/kearns_t/DSC07951_zps52f2c7cc.jpg) (http://s1287.photobucket.com/user/kearns_t/media/DSC07951_zps52f2c7cc.jpg.html)
I liked the 9th hole a lot, and consistently enjoy the C & C collection of short par 3's.
TK
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Tyler
That slope on #4 is severe, but I bet shots get hung up there. I would need to kick some balls around that area to get a good idea of the best place to approach from and land; one go isn't enough.
The 8th, well, I didn't care for it. First, its another booster hole left. Second, bigger hitters are given a huge advantage. I don't mind a few clubs difference, but I reckon one can hit a good drive and remain on top while a very good drive can bound 60-70 yards ahead onto the flat. Thats a 6-8 club difference. I didn't quite get to the flat and had maybe 175 in. My playing partner had no chance from the top of the hill after a solid drive of maybe 230 yards. Third, I there isn't a sufficent kick in from the right to help a draw along. I think if the trees stay, then a kick in should be provided. All in all, I think #8 is one of the least compelling holes on the course. In fact, while Dormie has more highs than Mid-Pines, I think it also has more lows. The variety of shots and holes at Dormie is incredible.
DORMIE CLUB CONT
The 10th is a monster three-shotter bending left around (or over) some muckish vegetation. I didn't realize the hazard was there until walking much further up the fairway, which incidentally slopes toward the trouble. Upon reaching the second shot, the full wonder of the hole was revealed. I am not sure what to make of this hole, but first impressions weren't overly positive. Once again, however, the green was very good in a somewhat subdued way.
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I found the blind approach 11th quite perplexing if not wholly satisfying. The wee 12th is the sort of hole which always intrigues. We decided to play the awkward length of 99 yards from the whites. Of course, danger lurks, but there is predictably even more than meets the eye.
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On #13, once again, we chose to play the white tees (394 yards), mainly because my playing partner didn't like the open field look of the tee shot further back, down the slope. I really enjoyed the "nothingness" of this hole after the previous several holes. The approach is very handsome and quite deceptive. There is a swale just shy of the green and a kick in bank to the left. Using the bank will likely propel the ball to the back of the green.
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More to follow.
Ciao
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Sean,
The hazard on No. 10 used to extend right across the fairway, although in speaking to a member, the current hazard is going to be filled-in. Coore & Crenshaw were forced to keep it due to environmental regulations, however, it is no longer defined as wetlands. In addition to No. 8, our group found this to be the weakest link. Again, it seems like a much easier hole for the longer hitter, as the lay-up second shot (not across the hazard) is to the narrowest portion of the fairway and leaves a monster third shot into the green. Getting close to the hazard off the tee is ideal as it makes the shot across the hazard much less daunting, although the height of the vegetation in the hazard limits visibility and makes the landing area appear much smaller than it is.
Much like No. 9, I felt the 12th was another standout short one-shotter which featured some excellent green contours.
TK
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While very impressive, Mid-Pines does have a repetitive nature with the waste areas featured so often. Additionally, the lengths of the fours seem to be lacking in variety.
Ciao
I love the insights but cannot agree with either of these impressions. I thought there was a wide variety in par four effective hole lengths and the waste areas seemed like a significant improvement over bermuda rough such as can be found across the street.
Sean - did you play Number 2? I suspect you would find the waste areas there much more repetitive than here. There is less elevation change on most of Number 2 so the waste areas seemed much more prominent to me.
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Tyler
I agree, the longer hitter has a huge advantage on #10. Though I didn't like the juxtaposition of the wetland area with the Principal's Nose, the two are not congruous.
Jason
I definitely agree that the waste areas at Mid Pines are an improvement over what was there previously. That said, the stuff is basically a lot of bunkering right and left. Mind you, the most important aspect of the waste areas is they make Mid-Pines a Sand Hills course. Previously, the design did not reflect the character of the turf and soil. I just wish the waste areas were toned down a bit. I also would like to have seen at least one huge waste area covering a few holes and creating effectively a cross bunker situation. But I understand this was a renovation so that wasn't on the cards so far as I know.
We played a mix of blue and white tees which was probably about 6300 yards. Thinking on my approaches for the 4s; they ranged from 3 wedges, 3 eight irons which were punches or after a poor drive (which were wedge length), 2 six irons (one of which was 8 iron distance) and 2 five irons. There aren't really any long, testing 4s on the course - definitely a weakness in my book. I would like to see a bit more variety in that department.
I did not play #2; the price is just too steep for me. I can appreciate the course will look very different today, but the greens were always my main issue with the design. Forking out the cash would likely lead to huge dissapointment. Besides, I was quite content playing Mid-Pines and Dormie plus a b&b for considerably less than a game at #2.
DORMIE CLUB CONT.
Short, but steeply uphill, #14 does offer the banger a chance to hammer one home. I get the impression that erring left or right can result in a tough recovery. The green is fairly narrow so approaching from outside a narrow section of the corridor even from the fairway can be considered a recovery shot; clever design.
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Perhaps the best aspect of the current style of architecture of which C&C are leading proponents is the emphasis on recovery shots. IMO, any course which focuses on this attribute cannot go far wrong.
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Now then, #15. This must be considered the wow hole at Dormie. Its certainly intimidating from either the blue or black tee. I wasn't sure of the carry distance, but I guessed maybe 210 yards from the white tee hitting between the bunkers and longer if hitting more toward the green. One can play toward the left bunker, but we both thought that would leave a horrible approach.
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Once in the fairway, the approach is bewildering. My instincts told me a shot rolling down from the left would work, but I instead hit a full 9 to the left side of the green. In retrospect, it would have been better to play to the middle or right side of the green. Going above the hole on the left leaves little scope for a downhill putt to stop. Additionally, if one doesn't carry the green and get some grip, its dead easy to shoot off the down slope shy of the green and slip over the putting surface; its dead back there.
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Perhaps most impressive of all concerning the 15th is the forward tee. In my failed attempt to traverse the ravine I had a good look at the 260ish yard white tee. Its quite an interesting hole from that angle to the far left.
More to follow.
Ciao
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Re: 15 at the a Dormie Club, it's apparent that C&C have a higher opinion of the average player's carry distance reality. When I played it first a couple of years ago, the gunch shirt if the fairway was impenetrable. Lost ball. Look now, it's not only possible to find a ball in there but it will likely be playable. There has been much bush hogging.
The short tees on both 5 and 15 are available to shorter hitters, but I have to say you feel like a punk playing from there. ::) ::). I think it's a major fault of the course that those two two holes don't have a tee requiring a carry of say 160 yards.
Otherwise there are a lot of really good holes, possibly not including 10, and I love the golf only, small clubhouse, low key vibe.
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Bill - the gunch didn't look like that during the Dixie Cup just one month ago. It was thick, tall, and impenetrable. Supposedly they cut it down in the fall every year.
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Re: 15 at the a Dormie Club, it's apparent that C&C have a higher opinion of the average player's carry distance reality. When I played it first a couple of years ago, the gunch shirt if the fairway was impenetrable. Lost ball. Look now, it's not only possible to find a ball in there but it will likely be playable. There has been much bush hogging.
The short tees on both 5 and 15 are available to shorter hitters, but I have to say you feel like a punk playing from there. ::) ::) . I think it's a major fault of the course that those two two holes don't have a tee requiring a carry of say 160 yards.
Otherwise there are a lot of really good holes, possibly not including 10, and I love the golf only, small clubhouse, low key vibe.
Re: 15 at the a Dormie Club, it's apparent that C&C have a higher opinion of the average player's carry distance reality. When I played it first a couple of years ago, the gunch shirt if the fairway was impenetrable. Lost ball. Look now, it's not only possible to find a ball in there but it will likely be playable. There has been much bush hogging.
The short tees on both 5 and 15 are available to shorter hitters, but I have to say you feel like a punk playing from there. ::) ::) . I think it's a major fault of the course that those two two holes don't have a tee requiring a carry of say 160 yards.
Otherwise there are a lot of really good holes, possibly not including 10, and I love the golf only, small clubhouse, low key vibe.
Ace
You need a bit of luck to find your ball if you are just short of making the carry. Anything much further toward the middle is pretty much a lost cause - no place to drop. You would have to be extremely lucky to get a play out of that crap. Those chaps pictured were hacking away!
I liked the forward tee on 15. Other than the long walk, it really helps make the hole workable for all - feeling like a punk or no. On the other hand, if there are no restrictions about the wet area, a bridge feeding to the short tee would be awesome.
DORMIE CLUB CONT.
Strip away the sand and #16 is a fairly basic short hole, though not quite a dumb blonde 8) .
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The penultimate hole was the most surprising for me. I hadn't registered that we were so far below the level of the house. I knew over the first part of the front nine there was a gradual descent, but I failed to pick up on the ascent. I have been critical of the three-shotters and I am afraid that trend continues. I am not sure this hole works well as a par 5. After a lovely drive, the second is a pure lay-up, leaving a tough third straight uphill.
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The 18th mercifully plays along level ground (one of the very few at Dormie) and bends a bit left. The flat bellies need to be concerned about a crossing waste area. For most, the approach will likely require some form of long iron/wood. This is a solid if unspectacular finishing hole.
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Behind the green.
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I am in two minds concerning Dormie. On the one hand, the experience of the course and club is excellent; very low key and calming. There are what I think of as three great holes; numbers 3, 4 and 15. The diversity of shots and holes is remarkable. The greens are full of interest without being onerous. The course was in superb nick. On the other hand, I think the design over-reaches itself. With the three great holes and the odd bit of unusual design here and there, enough is enough. Additionally, I don't care for the forced walks to the edge of play. In a word, I would prefer for the tee to green aspect of the design to be simplified. That said, I think further plays would increase my admiration and understanding for the design. However, the one aspect of Dormie Club which should not be overlooked is the huge impact it had in the Sandhills. Do Mid Pines, #2 and Pine Needles get the dramatic Sand Hills treatment without Dormie Club arriving on the scene? I don't think so. One could even take the argument further and question if Old Town reaches it's potential so quickly after Dormie Club making a splash. The course itself may be struggling and the club never took hold, but make no mistake that C&C's work at Dormie Club is one of the most influential designs of the last 20 years. 2013
Ciao
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The penultimate hole was the most surprising for me. I hadn't registered that we were so far below the level of the house. I knew over the first part of the front nine there was a gradual descent, but I failed to pick up on the ascent. I ahve been critical of the three-shotters and I am afraid that trend continues. I am not sure this hole works well as a par 5. After a lovely drive, the second is a pure lay-up, leaving a tough third straight uphill.
This is one of the first complaints I have ever heard about 17. I love the hole. The "Hell's Half Acre-like" waste area, which requires a heroic carry to get home in two, provides great strategy. I don't think it is a pure lay-up, as the landing zone leaves around 220-230 if I remember correctly. Plus there are ~30 yards of short grass after the waste area before the green. And its not like the layup leaves a 6-iron. It should be a 110 yard shot or so. I think it is one of the best on the course.
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Sean,
You had mentioned earlier your distaste for a few of the walks that cross the naturalized areas (#7 & #15), and indeed, they presented some difficulty for the walking golfer. Apparently these walks were much better cared for when the club was walking only with caddies, and now that that scenario is no longer the primary means of getting around the course, those areas have deteriorated.
TK
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Sean, I agree almost completely with your take on Dormie Club. My only change to your review would be to swap 15 and 17. I thought the latter to be a fantastic hole while the former didn't do it for me.
The setting really gives the course a pleasant vibe. It feels relaxing and isolated and smells great. And it does have a handful of really good holes. But too much of the course felt uninspired to me. While I agree with Tyler that 9 and 12 are good short par 3s on their own, I thought they were far too similar in the context of a four hole span on a single course. It also gets pretty sloggy and repetitive in general around that mid-round stretch. From 7-13 it feels like you're playing mostly long to very long holes with the two uphill short 3s thrown in for a failed respite. I really didn't care for that stretch, and the handful of great holes doesn't quite make up for it for me.
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The short tees on both 5 and 15 are available to shorter hitters, but I have to say you feel like a punk playing from there. ::) ::). I think it's a major fault of the course that those two two holes don't have a tee requiring a carry of say 160 yards.
I completely agree with these comments. Organizing a group of 16 with handicaps ranging from 24 to plus 1 there was not a good solution at Dormie because of these carries and (possibly) one other on a par 3. I either had to have everyone play from a very short distance, thereby gutting the character of these holes or attempt a carry I knew a few people would not be able to make. I knew I would deal with grumbling whichever option I went with.
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One question though, we had a player jammed under the lip of a waste area. There was some question as to the possibility of taking a penalty drop two club lengths no closer to the hole, but outside the waste area. That sounded right to me, but we never had the idea confirmed.
Sean, Surely enjoyed playing with you and your brother in law. I checked at the pro shop and and the ruling would be as you indicated. Since the waste area is not considered a hazard a drop in the fairway within 2 club lengths no nearer the hole is proper.
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I played Mid Pines and Pine Needles back in 2007. From the looks of the Mid Pines renovation, it looks as if the course now has a bit more character and attention to detail. That being said, I liked Pine Needles (and the 4 hole loop) a lot better for some odd reason.
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The short tees on both 5 and 15 are available to shorter hitters, but I have to say you feel like a punk playing from there. ::) ::). I think it's a major fault of the course that those two two holes don't have a tee requiring a carry of say 160 yards.
I completely agree with these comments. Organizing a group of 16 with handicaps ranging from 24 to plus 1 there was not a good solution at Dormie because of these carries and (possibly) one other on a par 3. I either had to have everyone play from a very short distance, thereby gutting the character of these holes or attempt a carry I knew a few people would not be able to make. I knew I would deal with grumbling whichever option I went with.
The course has many very large discrepancies in yardage between white tees and blue tees. It seems like a huge chunk of the 650 yard difference comes at #s 2, 5, 13 &15. In theory, I think this sounds a good way to cope with some odd land. In practice, it makes sense for #s 5 & 15. I am not sure it does for 2 & 13, but I don't know what the restrictions are for the native areas between tees. 13 was the one that really stuck out. I can't see any reason for the huge difference in tees.
I can't see why there is a red, white and blue tee. The white and blues can easily be combined for a yardage of about 6350. Anybody wanting a shorter hole here and there can move up to the reds or just stick to reds or a longer hole here or there can move back to the blacks.
To me, the four sets are unnecessary.
Ciao
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17 at Dormie was reachable for me. Driver- 3 wood into the front right bunker. I'm not an overly long hitter either. And, even if you are forced to lay up it is still just a short iron to the green.
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Jeepers, 17 must normally play downwind. I hit driver short of the right bunker. No hope of carrying the waste, layed-up with a 7 wood. Then 5 iron in. Even downwind, to reach a 490 yard hole in two with that much elevation change is what I think of as much, much longer than the average golfer. I don't think a very high percentage of golfers can reach in two from the white tees. Unless I say otherwise, my comments centre around a guy who can carry the ball maybe 230 at most, so usually about a 215 carry or less. For instance, for my rabbit golfer, the carry on #15 from the white tees is very daunting and for a huge percentage of golfers, impossible.
If it wasn't for the walk forward, I would prefer the red tee for #17. Thinking on it, I would like the red tee for #s 3, 10 & 11 as well. I reckon that would give me a 6100 yard course that I would enjoy more than any individual tee set.
Ciao
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Jeepers, 17 must normally play downwind. I hit driver short of the right bunker. No hope of carrying the waste, layed-up with a 7 wood. Then 5 iron in. Even downwind, to reach a 490 yard hole in two with that much elevation change is what I think of as much, much longer than the average golfer. I don't think a very high percentage of golfers can reach in two from the white tees. Unless I say otherwise, my comments centre around a guy who can carry the ball maybe 230 at most, so usually about a 215 carry or less.
Ciao
Sean,
Perhaps you should follow your own advice regarding moving up the the reds on some holes ;D ;D ;) ;)
nice tours by the way
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During the week of the Affordable Golf Symposium, I played both Dormie & Mid Pines (re-played, first play prior to remodeling).
I am a shortter hitting mid-single digit handicapper.
Dormie, I classify as a play once a year type of course, because of the severity of scoring. I did play the blue tees and walked the course in which I was pooped by hole 15, but was fortunate to break 80. The weather was perfect, lower 70's and not much humidity. I could not walk the course in the summer heat. The approach shots at Dormie, must be played conservatively because of green firmness and speed. Hole 17 needs a complete re-do IMO. At $175, I was OK for a single play one time, but am reluctant to go back for a steady dose. There are other courses on my bucket list.
The Mid-Pines renovation is visually attractive. The waste areas - bunkers are used a bit repetitively, I would like to see an occasional cross bunker or center line waste area. The renovation, for me, did not alter the way the holes are played. It is now a toned down Tobacco Road. It was a $125 round for me.
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Carl
We walked Dormie as well. The pro suggested it wasn't too bad a walk (and it isn't really awful to be fair), but when we came in a bit surprised by some of the hikes the pro then admitted he hadn't walked more than 10 holes at a time - and felt dogged afterward! In the future, I would consider taking the free cart and getting a forecaddie to drive it when we didn't want to, but be on hand to give us lifts past the harsh walks.
Jeff (Sherman) Warne
I have no qualms with moving forward. I did, however, notice some of my would be southern brethren didn't much like the idea of playing from Reds on occassion.
LOCAL FLAVOUR
We just happened to be in town for the North Carolina State Fair. Despite my bro-in-law not being enthusiastic about dropping by, we managed to convince him that attending these sorts of "affairs" are part of his duty as a newly minted US citizen - even if it was never mentioned on the application form. Yet another fantastic fall day was on hand, very much the sort we associate with Saturday College ball. It had been about 20 years since I last attended a State Fair. Things have changed slightly since my days in Michigan. I heard the music from outside the hall and drifted in to see the biggest three-legged cow in Wake County or the fattest chicken east of the Mississippi. I didn't get to see anything of that ilk, instead we were treated to what I can only presume is a no-name country band. Now, back in my day we were used to watching bands like The Ramones, Mitch Ryder or Iggy Pop at the State Fair...mind you, these country boys were quite good and I was diggin' on the Allman Bros tunes until the shrill voiced skinny as Twiggy appeared on stage...I exited. I guess the good ole boys don't need no Detroiters hangin' round anyhow. Cleverly, the tobacco market doubles as a stage.
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After a less than thrilling family acrobatic show, an array of large pumpkins (900 pounders!) and a display of less than interesting home-made objet d'art, I thought the gig was over. How wrong I was. An entirely new world of haute cuisine appeared magically under the Carolina sun. Deep fried Kool-Aid - zowie! They will deep fry your shoe for a few bucks.
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More to come.
Ciao
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The Mid-Pines renovation is visually attractive. The waste areas - bunkers are used a bit repetitively, I would like to see an occasional cross bunker or center line waste area. The renovation, for me, did not alter the way the holes are played. It is now a toned down Tobacco Road. It was a $125 round for me.
One more thought about Mid-Pines. I think it needs a large tree clearing program to tie together more of the waste areas, making them bigger in scale.
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Yes, I think more trees could come out, but as you say, more importantly I would have liked some of the waste areas to be more in my face like at Dormie. I suspect that sort of thing wasn't original to Ross though, but I could be wrong. Ross was quite inventive when he needed/wanted to be. Still, I really liked the course and can't really point to a true architectural weakness. I could be happy with Mid Pines as my home club. Throwing in Pine Needles is nothing to sneeze at either.
Ciao
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Oh yeah, play at Mid-Pines all the time if I was close and a little wealthier ...
I have yet to play Pine Needles
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LOCAL FLAVOUR CONT.
All the times I visited Raleigh and this was the first time I made it to the city centre. Nothing particularly special to see, although I enjoyed touring the State Capitol building. It was mighty generous of Sherman not to burn it down. Amongst the various statues, proclamations and plaques, I was especially taken by the one below. Its poorly phrased, but we get the message; the Brits were a mean lot back in the day.
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I spose Raleigh's most famous son is Andrew Johnson. I don't think he had it too bad growing up in the house below. I am told Lincoln's childhood home was worse...
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Even in the South commercialism is the true religion, but the old time variety is never far away. The concept of separation of church and state always struck me as right and proper. Its an idea many Brits don't fully understand. Ironically, because some aspect of faith is expected of American politicians (particularly southern politicians), it can be argued that the UK, even with the Queen as Head of State and Church has more separation between church & state than exists in the US.
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A LOCAL COURSE
Wildwood Green is a mid-80s design by John Lafoy, an architect who has done quite a bit of work in Georgia and the Carolinas. This is a tough site to create a memorable design because of the OOB necessitated by the housing estate and the over-abundance of water. I don't think the course is as good as the individual holes suggest simply because of the constant threat of hitting a shot which results in a replay or a drop. That said, some of the holes are very good and the club is keen improve the course. Just recently (August 2017) the greens were relaid with a variety of Bermuda grass and some trees were taken out...though many more trees need to be removed to mitigate the pressure of OOB.
The Ross-like 2nd.
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The do or die 6th features a spine down the middle of the green making recovery shots from the opposite side of the green quite entertaining.
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The par five 7th may be the best hole on the course.
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The drive is very hemmed in on the 8th, but the greensite is excellent despite the heavy-handed shaping.
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Quite an interesting hole, the 9th works between OOB left and right. Most of the time, the best angle of approach requires a slight lay-up just shy of the bunker.
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Legging left and downhill, the 10th is very dangerous; OOB left and the perfect drive still leaves a good length carry over water.
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Threading trouble left and right, the approach to 14 is excellent.
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#16 was a hole I really liked - straight forward, no nonsense golf. Although, the shadows cast across the fairway tell the story where trees are concerned.
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Perhaps the best hole was saved for last. Sweeping downhill and right, the 18th then heads steeply uphill to a long, narrow green for the approach.
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Ciao
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OLD TOWN CLUB
Although the current greens are a close approximation of Maxwell's originals, The Old Course homage double green for #s 8 & 17 and movement of the greens in general most reflect Maxwell’s admiration for St Andrews. The great architect was also very impressed by how well so many of the holes on Scottish championship courses lay on the land. These two design principles would be beacons for the entirety of Perry Maxwell’s architectural career.
An unforeseeable event happened during Maxwell's epic 1919 journey to Scotland. The coincidental meeting with Dr Alister Mackenzie, was to eventually lead to a partnership between the two. For Mackenzie, it was his modus operandi to work with creative and industrious people in bringing many of his most famous designs to fruition. For Maxwell, it was a double edged sword. There can be little doubt working with Mackenzie was a feather in his cap, but many later golf historians would mistakenly consider Maxwell’s legacy mainly in terms of a Mackenzie associate. Thankfully, in the past the ten years or so, that misconception has been rectified.
Classic architecture is about many things, but a sense of connection surely must be one of the most important aspects of that period. From approximately 1900 to the Great Depression there necessarily existed a much tighter community in the business of golf than exists today and Old Town is one of the greatest products of this coterie. Consider the timeline below:
1913: Maxwell designs a first effort for Dornick Hills.
1919: Maxwell visits Scotland to experience many championship courses, but most especially TOC.
1919: During the Scottish trip, Maxwell meets Alistair Mackenzie, the two hit it off and, before parting make loose plans to work together should Mackenzie come to the USA.
1920-1926: Maxwell designs several courses including Twin Hills in Oklahoma City.
1924: Mackenzie appointed consultant to the R&A.
1926: Mackenzie visits Maxwell at Twin Hills in Oklahoma City.
1927-1931: Mackenzie, now quite a famous architect, teams with Maxwell for several projects, including; Oklahoma City CC, Melrose CC in Philadelphia, Crystal Downs Club in Michigan and the University of Michigan GC in Ann Arbor.
1933: Augusta National GC designed by Mackenzie and Bob Jones shortly before Mackenzie’s death; Jones is a great admirer of TOC and the design principles of ANGC are closely associated with TOC.
1933: Maxwell works on Pine Valley GC; a course which was significantly enhanced by HS Colt, a former partner of Mackenzie.
1934: Maxwell co-designs Colonial CC.
1935: Maxwell works on National Golf Links of America. Course designed by CB Macdonald who attended The University of St Andrews and became well acquainted with TOC.
1935: Maxwell designs Southern Hills CC in Tulsa.
1936: Mackenzie works on Links Club.
1937: Maxwell designs the 9 hole Prairie Dunes CC in Hutchinson, Kansas.
1937-38: Maxwell works on Augusta National GC and Merion GC. Clifford Roberts, co-founder of ANGC, is hired to work for the firm of Reynolds & Company (later to become Dean, Witter, Reynolds). He would then recommend Maxwell for the Old Town job.
1938: The Babcocks (daughter of RJ Reynolds) donate 165 acres of the Reynolda estate to found Old Town Club.
1939: The Maxwell designed Old Town Club opens in Winston Salem. Many believe this is the final course designed on classic principles.
1939: Maxwell works on Maidstone GC & Westchester CC.
1940: Maxwell works on Colonial CC.
1946-48: Maxwell designs Austin CC, and stays periodically with Harvey Pennick, the long serving head professional of the club. The original course was Ben Crenshaw’s home course in the 1960s before attending the University of Texas. Like Old Town, Austin featured many Maxwell trademarks: downhill front and back nine opening tee shots, uphill finishing holes for each nine, many greens tightly bunkered and rolling greens. Crenshaw’s famous putting skills were honed at Austin CC. It is well known that TOC is one of Crenshaw’s favourite courses and one he looks to for inspiration in design.
1949: A Palmer wins the Southern Conference Championship at Old Town.
1954: In his final year at Wake Forest, Arnold Palmer leads the team to a 2nd place ACC finish at Old Town and wins the US Amateur. He would be the first of many players, including Curtis Strange, Darren Clark, Lanny Wadkins and Jay Sigel, to be groomed by Old Town for a successful career in golf.
1956: Wake Forest University Golf Team begins a long and close association with Old Town Club, two years before the university moves to Winston Salem.
1962: Bill Coore enrols at Wake Forest University. He played a minor role on the golf team, but never played in a Varsity match. Coore greatly admires the work of Maxwell, especially his greens and routings and counts Old Town as one of his favourite courses.
1982: After spending a decade cutting his teeth with Pete Dye, Coore starts his own architecture firm.
1984: Coore starts a long partnership with Prairie Dunes as a consultant. It could well be that this is the big bang point for the current minimalist movement.
1986: Ben Crenshaw joins Bill Coore as a partner.
1992: Coore and Crenshaw open Sand Hills to critical acclaim. Many believe it to be the best course opened since Old Town Club.
1995: Bob Cupp renovation of Old Town.
2002: Long term tree management project begins.
2004: Coore & Crenshaw renovate Prairie Dunes.
2012-2013: Fresh off renovating Pinehurst #2 to rave reviews, Coore & Crenshaw hired to renovate Old Town; the course reopened in August 2013.
One can easily see the incredible connections between TOC, Old Town, ANGC, Prairie Dunes, Mackenzie, Maxwell, Jones, Coore and Crenshaw. However, it takes a will power on the part of a club to effect change and Dunlop White iii has been at the helm of this process of improvement at Old Town for over a decade. Once meeting Dunlop it is clear he is a strong advocate for proper tree management and preserving principles of classic design. Old Town Club and golfers in general are extremely lucky to have a man of vision guiding the re-birth of one of the best courses in the US.
Dunlop explains the nine month renovation work:
1. Restored the approximate size, shape and dimensions of Maxwell’s original bunkers.
2. Reinstated some of Maxwell’s common bunker formations:
-- Scabs: "islands of turf", often called "scabs", were reinstated.
-- Big and Little Bunker Sets: Maxwell’s bunker systems tended to feature one large bunker with a smaller one tagging along.
3. Revived the artistic character of Maxwell’s natural bunker style.
-- Jagged Edges: we recaptured Maxwell’s rugged bunkers with jagged-laced edges, rumpled lips, and exposed dirt face variations.
-- Native Plant Patina: we recaptured stalks of native bluestems, known as Broomsedge, which will once again envelope the edges.
4. Restored the original depths of bunker floors. In coring out the bunkers, their original depths were idnetified by unearthing old sand layers and drainage tiles approximately two feet below the current bunker floors.
5. Returned to local creek-bed sand from the nearest harvester -- the Yadkin River.
6. Restored 68 bunkers in their original locations, and added 9 bunkers in new locations.
7. Restored the close relationship and proximity between bunkers/greens. An important element of the restoration was tying the bunkers and the greens back together seamlessly.
8. The double green was 8,200 square feet in 2012. The restored version is 16,300 square feet which closer resemble its source of inspiration at The Old Course -- home to seven large double greens.
9. Re-contoured hole 5 green which had lost its Maxwell "rolls".
10. Expanded the size of the putting surface on nine (9) greens closer to their original foot prints.
11. Expanded the fairways from 35 acres to 52 acres to recapture the width revealed in the old aerial photos.
12. Repaved the cart trails (re-routed some trails and removed others altogether)
13. Removed dozens of huge trees which had outgrown their welcome.
14. Re-constructed over 22 tee boxes by slightly adjusting their distance or their orientation to the fairway.
15. Native area work will commence in the fall.
16. Plan to increase fairway acreage to approximately 80 acres; including a massive expance of fairway between #s 4, 7, 8, 9, 17 & 18.
17. Plan to eliminate Bermuda rough, leaving only native areas and fairway (similar to Pinehurst #2 with all waste areas and fairway – no Bermuda rough).
18. Plan to switch the 9th and 18th tees.
With the lengthy intro it should be more than obvious I am greatly affected by Old Town and the recent work. I thought very highly of the design after first seeing Old Town maybe four years ago. Dunlop enthusiastically spoke about further tree removal to create interior views, something I am always in favour of especially on a site with limited potential for exterior views, but I was not prepared for the Coore & Crenshaw renovations. While much the same course, Old Town is aesthetically vastly improved and in spots visually more intimidating. I was impressed by Mid-Pines’ renovation, but the work at Old Town could very well be considered THE model renovation. It seems to me that every possible improvement which could be made is at the very least on the table for discussion. In fact, the very day I played Old Town it was decided to switch the 9 and 18th tees. Dunlop asked us to step over to the 18th tee (all of a few feet!), look up the 9th fairway and see the improvement for ourselves. I have to admit that keeping the ball safely left did strike me as a more obvious play from the 18th tee and playing to the right side of the 18th fairway more imperative when playing from the 9th tee. Life can be quite simple! Onto the course.
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A very attractive opening tee shot conceals the danger of a nasty native area left and a creek crossing the fairway.
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On #2 the golfer is treated to a wonderful par 3 whose bunkers have been radically overhauled.
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The lay of the land wants to shove tee shots left into tree trouble, but a good drive on #3 leaves an approach from just shy of what I think is a new bunker, or perhaps a repositioned bunker. I seem to recall a bunker being more centre-line. In any case, the land movement heads directly for the bunker in the foreground so its placement makes a lot of sense. The green moves almost imperceptively right to left! I had an interesting incident occur. From the left rough I caught a flyer, my 9 iron, which I chose because I didn't think I could reach that blasted black Merc, flew over the green, hit directly on the mound, took one bounce over the black Merc and slammed into a maintenance fence. While searching for the ball I jokingly said it would be difficult to explain to our host how I broke a window. Dunlop later confessed the black Merc was his, though I wasn't totally convinced this was the case until he unlocked the door! Whew!
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More to follow.
Ciao
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Wonderful Old Town post, Sean - thanks.
You really have become an invaluable part of this site.
Peter
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Pietro - thank you very much.
OLD TOWN CLUB CONT
Some people will point toward the slightly awkward walk across the car park to reach the 4th tee, however, crossing the lot does create two very good boozer's loops of 1-3 and 4-9. My immediate thought concerning the 4th is the huge advantage big hitters enjoy - essentially making this par 5 a very good birdie opportunity. The dogleg corner is out of reach from the tee, consequently most golfers' second shot will have to work right around the dogleg or lay-up to a convenient distance. Because the fairway flows into the 7th, very short hitters do not have the onus of an exact placement shot at the turn, there is some recovery wiggle room should the second run through the fairway. Flat bellies have a huge advantage on the approach as well. As on the first, there is a blind creek crossing the fairway which more likely than not will effect guys who can't carry the ball at least 225. Behind the green is evidence of tree clearing to expose the 5th, 6th and 7th. I believe the two rear bunkers are new as well. They may hide the cart path and perhaps break-up a sightline which isn't quite right.
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Legging around the 6th green (see flag on the left of the photo) and over corner bunkers, which is a bigger carry than it appears, the 5th is a shortish, but devilish par four. There is space over the far right bunkers for a lay-up, but predictably, that leaves a longer approach into a raised green (a feature throughout at Old Town) which feeds away from the fairway. I believe the far left bunker is new. I expect this may give flat bellies much more to think about for the tee shot.
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The 150-160 yard approach after a cowardly lay-up.
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#6, #6, #6 ......DIFFICULT! Playing downhill, the green too runs away from play. Additionally, there is a spine running maybe 2/3s of the way from the right. With the location front left, it is best to play pin-high right and try to two putt up the spine. Running to the rear of the green leaves a putt which needs some rehearsing to learn. Diabolically, C&C have placed a bunker hiding and protecting the safe landing zone on the right. Incidentally, loads of trees have come out behind the green creating a more open feel.
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In the mist of a great stretch of holes, the 7th is a sleeper which in truth is the match of 5, 6, & 8. For all the space on view it can be difficult to ascertain the best line off the tee. The new bunkers left protect the ideal line of approach and the trees right can block out a lazy tee shot which leaks down the hill. Below is a look at seven (on the left) and seventeen. Incidentally, the left bunkers are on double duty as they are in play for the 4th hole as well. I am sure there were trees near this area before the renovation.
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From the fairway the green looks wide, but in fact it is set at an angle being long and narrow, thus placing a premium on the tee shot.
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More to follow.
Ciao
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I know it is just because the grass is formant but I like Sean's pictures with the brown grass better than the others I have seen with green grass. Old Town looks like one marvelous golf course. I can't wait to see it after they complete the plan of eliminating all rough and returning it to natural broken ground.
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The photos of Old Town gives me a sort of Aussie vibe. Could that be possible? It would seem to be a very interesting course when or if it plays firm and fast. I like the looks of it.
A wonderful photo journey, as always, Sean. 8)
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Steve & RJ - thank you very much.
OLD TOWN CLUB CONT
The glorious golf continues. Some well known designers have made it known they believe double greens to be hokey. This is a curious stance as in my experience they are rare and there have been situations where I think combining nearby greens would add flair to a design. Needless to say, the standout aspect of the 8th is the shared green with #17. As part of the recent renovation, the green size has been doubled. The blind drive can be a bit bewildering. Its important not to stray too far left and be caught in the Bermuda. Digging out a down lie to a green just beyond water is not ideal! For many, it will also be important not to be left with an overly downhill lie. The photo below is from a level spot at the top of the hill.
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The new rear bunkers conceal the cart path, thus dramatically improving the aesthetics of this green.
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Much of the left side of the green is new.
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The front nine finishes with a tough uphill legger right. The lay of the land moves with the shape of the dogleg so it is very easy to be caught in trees. While the approach is quite steep, there is some relief due to a bank at the rear of the green which can be used quite effectively when the hole is cut on the back half of the green. Back to the changing of the tees for #s 9 & 18; it seems to me the entire tee pad can be used for both holes. Why not simply put 9 & 18 tee markers across the width of the pad and let the player choose his line?
At first glance the 10th tee seems to be located in an odd spot as it is the hub of a busy as bees area. The hole plays blindly downhill. The hill which influences the ball movement on 9 & 18 also does so on 10. There is a small wood down the right over the crest of the hill which can very easily be in play. I expect many people lay-up, but there can be an advantage to taking the trees on. Below are photos of the distinct approaches.
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The short 11th brings a well featured creek back into play. In fact, I think there are at least three creeks on the property; all in one way or another running beyond #s 10 & 11.
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More to follow.
Ciao
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The photos of Old Town gives me a sort of Aussie vibe. Could that be possible? It would seem to be a very interesting course when or if it plays firm and fast. I like the looks of it.
Funny that. I was sitting here thinking 'I've never seen a more British-looking course in America'.
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The photos of Old Town gives me a sort of Aussie vibe. Could that be possible? It would seem to be a very interesting course when or if it plays firm and fast. I like the looks of it.
Funny that. I was sitting here thinking 'I've never seen a more British-looking course in America'.
Adam - really? I don't know of a trapped inland UK course which has anywhere near the sense of space as Old Town. Add in the incredible number of direct water hazards and OTC really is quite apart from anything I know in UK.
OLD TOWN CLUB CONT.
For some reason, twelve grabs the attention of many, including myself. The drive to a two-tier fairway is nothing special and the green, while very good, is not a standout among Old Town's gems. I think the aesthetic of the approach is superb; especially the lovely specimen tree in the background. This is the way specimen trees should be showcased on a golf course, though the scene is compromised a bit by the shaggy evergreen further right in the background. I am reliably told that offending tree and others are now removed. Maybe someone more astute than me can explain the attraction. Below is a look from beyond the drive zone, most will face a blind approach.
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One of two holes which from the tee unsettled me; the 13th hole features a blind drive framed by fairly tight tree lines left and right. I have played narrower holes, but this seemed uncharacteristically narrow for Old Town. The green though is excellent. The short two-shotter 14th may look the most radically different hole on the course. Trees where water runs down the left have been cleared and the bunker work to the rear of the long, skinny green has transformed its look. By the time we reached the 15th tee, another hole with water playing a role, two things became clear to me. First, no matter how well the course uses the hills, there was no way to avoid incorporating a lot of water shots. I count at least nine holes where water can cause grief. Second, it is incredible how well fairway width and green placement mitigate the full impact of the creeks. However, this fact remains, five approaches require some form of aerial shot due to water.
Other than #11, perhaps the 15th is the most intimidating. While a carry is not required, water does crowd the green's left side. This long par 3 looks Redanish, but it would be awfully difficult to sling a low hooking runner to the left side of the green.
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More to follow.
Ciao
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It's the landscape rather than anything else. In the flesh I'm sure you're right Sean. But a sense of space doesn't come over too easily in photographs.
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It's the landscape rather than anything else. In the flesh I'm sure you're right Sean. But a sense of space doesn't come over too easily in photographs.
Adam
Your landscape comment is interesting. I think I can see where you are coming from, but can you give some examples?
Ciao
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This is a most impressive photo tour. Well done Sean. When viewed in conjunction with the current but separate GCA restoration thread http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,54419.0.html - and the WF websites before/after renovation photos - http://grfx.cstv.com/photos/schools/wake/sports/m-golf/auto_pdf/2012-13/misc_non_event/otcredesign.pdf - it becomes even more impressive.
Looking forward to seeing the rest of the holes on this tour.
All the best
PS - does anyone have a course map? It would help understanding the routing around the 4th/7th holes and the use of the streams.
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Thomas
Thanks.
I am not sure about copyright protection so I don't include aerial images in my writeups. However, in Saltzy's terrific tour, there is numbered aerial.
http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,52184.0.html
Ciao
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Sean,
Thanks for this. Now I understanding the routing. The difference in the grass colour is presumably seasonal variance with your tour being in late Autumn and Marks being in May. With theses Autumn grass colours I can appreciate RJD's comment about an 'Aussie vibe', it does kinda remind me of the Tom Roberts painting 'Breakaway'.
All the best.
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OLD TOWN CLUB CONT.
Most of Old Town's blind or obscured tee shots don't offer a guiding bunker. Until the renovation, among #s 1, 4, 8, 10, 12, 13 & 16, only the 8th featured fairway bunkers. This current renovation saw C&C place two new bunkers on the 16th; one high and one low on the banked left to right fairway. To be honest, I am not sure they work very well. I understand the goal of trying to break-up the tree frame look, but perhaps only one bunker was necessary. I managed to hit a power fade to the bottom of the hill only to leave myself an awkward distance for the very steep second. The tabletop green is fairly small and quite contoured, it pays dividends to keep the approach below the hole, which I managed to do...way below the hole! My kick up to the front hole location failed and I found myself looking toward the sky again.
The final par 5 takes us over a creek, past bunkers and back to the double green in the far distance. The oddly placed far right bunker is new.
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Thinking the centre-line bunker was protecting something special, I decided to take the what I later found out is the foolish route down the right. Hoping to have the length of the green to hit up, I was disappointed my "clever" second didn't yield a reward.
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Its a bit of a wild idea, but upon reaching the creek I immediately thought that it would be cool if there was a land bridge some 15 yards wide feeding to the green. For sure it would be a risky play for bigger hitters, but it would be fun to try and eliminate one of the forced carries.
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One last look at 8 & 17 from the final tee.
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There isn't quite as much going on with the home hole as on the 9th, but I rather like the simplicty of the design.
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Its quite clear to me that the front nine is superior to a very good back nine, but the 10th, 12th & 18th are all first class holes. The flow of Old Town's routing is excellent. Very much like many fine English designs, the length of the course isn't distressing. The player is afforded opportunities to bang and roll shots. The greens are top notch. The course was in superb nick. The views are very handsome. The only real drawback I can muster is the amount of water. I would prefer less, but at least there are no ponds and many of the holes where water threatens offer lay-ups and/or plenty of width to avoid trouble. I think Old Town merits 2*, its that good! If the club can find some way to eliminate the Bermuda and further increase fairway acerage, it can only make the course better.
SCORECARD (daily tees)
Par 70
6280 Yards
1. 394
2. 143 !
3. 369
4. 516
5. 363 !
6. 173 !
7. 345 !
8. 382 !
9. 396
10. 398 !
11. 178
12. 413 !
13. 421
14. 317 !
15. 189
16. 358
17. 557
18. 368
My order of favourites on this trip from the visitor PoV:
1.Old Town - the only one of the 3 to make my Whip It Out List
GAP
2. Dormie
GAP
3. Mid Pines
SEVERAL GAPS
4. Wildwood Green
Order of best on this trip:
1a. Old Town
2. Dormie - while I am not entirely sold on the course, diversity is something I value a ton and Dormie has two tons of diversity
3. Mid-Pines - no slouch to finish third, would take it as a members' course over Dormie in a heartbeat
4. Wildwood Green
Ciao
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Sean - did you play from the back tee on 17? The bunkers left are perfectly placed from there because, if they did not otherwise exist, many people would hit it there. Dunlop told us they were out of reach and promptly put one in them.
I would be interested to hear the thinking behind the bunker on the right but but the hole would look pretty bland without it.
Dunlop told us that the architects were very careful to make sure the fairway bunkers parrellelled the creek that angles across the fairway.
I don't have a problem with forced carries over creeks, expecially in front of the green. When they become ponds, I find them less desireable.
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Sean -- Great write-up! The Reynolds estate was 1000 acres large, and Maxwell had his "pick of the litter" for the course (165 acres). The topography is off-the-charts -- most agree. But you're correct that the creeks are a common theme throughout. In fact, the primary waterway called Silas Creek and its branches are located on 13 of the 18 holes. However, these creeks do not really threaten play on Holes 5, 7, 9 and 18. (May need the assistance of Ed Oden, Chris Clouser or Mark Saltzman here -- as I remember perhaps creeks working through other Maxwell courses like this, perhaps Dornock Hills?)
The cross-bunkers recovered on Hole 16 were Maxwell originals. They were abandoned and covered up in the 50's. I have always been a huge fan of cross-bunkers for their visual and directional impact -- defining the landing area ahead that you cannot readily see from the tee and even pointing you in the direction of the green. Plus, these cross-bunkers visually broke up a hillside of monotone green.
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Sean -- Great write-up! The Reynolds estate was 1000 acres large, and Maxwell had his "pick of the litter" for the course (165 acres). The topography is off-the-charts -- most agree. But you're correct that the creeks are a common theme throughout. In fact, the primary waterway called Silas Creek and its branches are located on 13 of the 18 holes. However, these creeks do not really threaten play on Holes 5, 7, 9 and 18. (May need the assistance of Ed Oden, Chris Clouser or Mark Saltzman here -- as I remember perhaps creeks working through other Maxwell courses like this, perhaps Dornock Hills?)
The cross-bunkers recovered on Hole 16 were Maxwell originals. They were abandoned and covered up in the 50's. I have always been a huge fan of cross-bunkers for their visual and directional impact -- defining the landing area ahead that you cannot readily see from the tee and even pointing you in the direction of the green. Plus, these cross-bunkers visually broke up a hillside of monotone green.
Dunlop,
Not to take the focus away from Old Town, but the first thing that popped into my head was Oklahoma City. Here is what I wrote in a tour of OKCGCC:
While the front nine has several strong holes (of particular note are the 2nd, 5th and 7th), the real genius of OCGCC is the routing of a five-hole stretch on a tiny piece of land on the other side of a road.
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc430/SaltyLaw/Oklahoma%20City/9b86bc29.jpg)
Maxwell makes maximum use of the stream, having it cross in front and left of the green on 10...
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc430/SaltyLaw/Oklahoma%20City/bab989c6.jpg)
It must runs short and right of the green on the 11th...
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc430/SaltyLaw/Oklahoma%20City/b1e388bf.jpg)
It must be crossed twice at the 12th, and it protects the left side of the green...
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc430/SaltyLaw/Oklahoma%20City/4c0135bc.jpg)
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc430/SaltyLaw/Oklahoma%20City/36118836.jpg)
It runs right of and beyond the 13th green...
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc430/SaltyLaw/Oklahoma%20City/992b1298.jpg)
And must be carried yet again on the approach to the 14th...
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc430/SaltyLaw/Oklahoma%20City/16591e38.jpg)
To steal a line from Ed Oden, Maxwell found a feature he liked and figuratively bashes you over the head with it.
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Mark, Sean - you two should combine to create a website or book or ebook based on the courses you've played and like best and write about most fully. I mean it - you're both excellent at what you do, and your courses-choices are always interesting and just enough off the beaten track to get and keep our attention.
Peter
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They could call it The Confidential Guide or something~
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I was thinking "Arble & Mark" (sounds quite classy and upscale, in a British way); or "Saltzman & Sean" (sounds more American upscale). Either way, they'd be "Purveyors of Fine Quality Golf Courses - Worldwide".
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OLD TOWN CLUB CONT.
(http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff114/seanrobertarble/OLD%20TOWN%20CLUB/152_zps63de07a2.jpg) (http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff114/seanrobertarble/OLD%20TOWN%20CLUB/152_zps63de07a2.jpg)
Excellent, thorough course tours (as always). A real pleasure to view and read. Well done Sean.
Mischievously I can't help but wonder what say, the 13th at ANGC would look like with a similarly looking shaggy stream and beige/brown fairways? I guess it was like that once upon a time, time of year dependant though.
All the best.
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Old Town looks like an absolute treat. Much prefer the look of this course to many more heralded ones I've seen photo tours of.
Think I need to see myself some Maxwell sometime.
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I agree Ally. I don't think I've ever played a Maxwell, but Old Town sure makes me want to.
Regarding the 13th green at Dormie, that photo doesn't do it justice. The green and surrounds tilt left to right pretty good. A low running shot can work its way to the back right nicely. Also, the depression on the right is a little more than the photo shows. When I played Dormie the first time I thought the photos I had seen didn't do justice to the topography.
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Steve is right, there is more of an accentuated left to right tilt to the green than it appears. Pretty much from where the pin is toward the front of the green tilts toward the fairway down to the swale - not a severe false front, but when the green is firm its a challenge to keep an approach below the hole.
Kelly - remember, many folks will be hitting woods or long irons into this green so holding the back section of the green on the fly is a big ask unless the player is quite good. I have a lot of time for this straight forward design approach - its a welcome break at Dormie.
Ciao
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After a really good drive from the regular tee I still had a 6 iron in. The next day a so-so drive left a hybrid. For many people it's going to be all they've got on the second shot.
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Kelly - remember, many folks will be hitting woods or long irons into this green so holding the back section of the green on the fly is a big ask unless the player is quite good. I have a lot of time for this straight forward design approach - its a welcome break at Dormie.
Ciao
This Is hole 13 at 390 yards?
I was imagining a wedge or 9 iron approach shot.
Yes, from the whites (there are two further back tees), its 390, but you could imagine going to the back tee, 100 yards back down the hill.
I hit driver/8 iron. I was caught between minds trying to figure out if I should carry the green or bounce one in - should have bounced one in. I would rather be off the green below the hole than on it with 60+ foot putt
Ciao
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Kelly - remember, many folks will be hitting woods or long irons into this green so holding the back section of the green on the fly is a big ask unless the player is quite good. I have a lot of time for this straight forward design approach - its a welcome break at Dormie.
Ciao
This Is hole 13 at 390 yards?
I was imagining a wedge or 9 iron approach shot.
It's very hard for me to imagine too many players who have chosen the white tees (with two sets further back) to be hitting 9 irons or wedges to a 394 yard hole.
But then I spend a lot of time watching players of this ability level who claim to hit it 270 ;)
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I agree Jeff, even from 390 on firm ground many guys will be hitting at least mid-irons.
Ciao
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I played one tee up from the back. Not sure of the actual yardage, but the whole was fairly lengthy. I truly hit it about 265-270 on average off the tee. :)
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I was thinking "Arble & Mark" (sounds quite classy and upscale, in a British way); or "Saltzman & Sean" (sounds more American upscale). Either way, they'd be "Purveyors of Fine Quality Golf Courses - Worldwide".
Pietro
You are always very gracious with your comments. While not with Saltzy, I did have a conversation with a few chaps about a golf guides. We figured guides for folks is well trodden so favoured the idea of a Dog's Guide to Golf. Our preliminary discussions didn't go much further than
Ciao
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Top Prize
(http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f140/buffalogolfer/GCA%20January%202014%20Contest/IMG_3844.jpg)
This top dog is squatting beneath the lighthouse at Highland Links, Truro, Massachusetts...if you were unsure of the architectural merit of the post.
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I had the good fortune to revisit Dormie Club a few weeks ago. My, what an interesting design! Its a dog gone shame they haven't built bridges and boardwalks to make the walk worth taking on. Beside what is currently in the ground, I am struck by how influential Dormie Club is for the Sand Hills. Do folks think Mid Pines, #2 and Pine Needles get the renovations they did without the advent of Dormie Club? I don't think so, at least not in the very quick time frame it all happened...within 10 years of Dormie Club opening. Whatever one thinks of the design as part of Coore & Crenshaw's portfolio, it is readily apparent that this is one of their most influential courses to date. See the updated tour....scroll past Mid Pines.
http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,57154.0.html (http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,57154.0.html)
Ciao
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No doubt Sean but don't discount the boldness of Tobacco Road that showed that all golf courses are not alike.
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Jay
Yes, I agree about Tobacco Road, but it isn't as polished as #2 or Mid Pines, even though it is far edgier and polarizing.
Ciao
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Splendid tour Sean. Most impressive. Thanks for sharing. Greens very 'green' - occasional maintenance I presume.
All the best
If the greens are an ultradwarf bermuda, which they appear to be, they've already begun the winter "coloring process." This must be done well in advance of the turf actually going dormant. Much better than overseeding for the turf and the player.
Anthony
I missed this the first time around...really interesting. Is colouring a common practice for these newish Bermuda strains?
Ciao
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I believe coloring the new Bermuda strains has been around for 10+ years. At first it was purely aesthetic. Now,if I understand correctly,the newer (5 years?) "paint" actually provides some protection to the greens.