Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture Discussion Group => Topic started by: Patrick_Mucci on October 13, 2013, 08:48:27 PM
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removal of rough from the perimeter of the green, allowing marginal shots to roll off the green into adjacent bunkers, chipping areas or greenside rough.
While the elimination and maintenance presents a bit of a challenge, it's a worthwhile challenge.
I've noticed a number of clubs cutting back on the rough surrounding the putting surface to allow the contour of the land to redirect the ball.
Somehow, I feel that this was the original intent, one that got lost in the name of "fairness"
Now that many clubs have reclaimed their lost putting surfaces, what clubs are starting to reclaim the perimeters ?
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removal of rough from the perimeter of the green, allowing marginal shots to roll off the green into adjacent bunkers, chipping areas or greenside rough.
While the elimination and maintenance presents a bit of a challenge, it's a worthwhile challenge.
I've noticed a number of clubs cutting back on the rough surrounding the putting surface to allow the contour of the land to redirect the ball.
Somehow, I feel that this was the original intent, one that got lost in the name of "fairness"
Now that many clubs have reclaimed their lost putting surfaces, what clubs are starting to reclaim the perimeters ?
Original intent or not we have vastly expanded short grass throughout the course, starting at the green complexes.
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removal of rough from the perimeter of the green, allowing marginal shots to roll off the green into adjacent bunkers, chipping areas or greenside rough.
While the elimination and maintenance presents a bit of a challenge, it's a worthwhile challenge.
I've noticed a number of clubs cutting back on the rough surrounding the putting surface to allow the contour of the land to redirect the ball.
Somehow, I feel that this was the original intent, one that got lost in the name of "fairness"
Now that many clubs have reclaimed their lost putting surfaces, what clubs are starting to reclaim the perimeters ?
Original intent or not we have vastly expanded short grass throughout the course, starting at the green complexes.
Greg,
Since when is mowing the putting surfaces back to the original foot pad expanding short grass throughout the course ?
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8) lots of fun when the perimeter runs 8-10... but many don't like it simply because it can destroy medal scores..
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My course has a ton of this and it makes for very interesting play. I have been working on the hybrid chip the last month and the jury is still out.
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Agreed. Our course has lots of this, too.
Now, if I could get them to cut down the rough around the bunkers....
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8) lots of fun when the perimeter runs 8-10... but many don't like it simply because it can destroy medal scores..
Steve,
Hasn't medal play been responsible for removing or dumbing down so many features on golf courses ?
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Pat,
Trend?
There are many places where what you describe is and always has been just the way things are done. It never goes out of style.
Come visit Australia or Britain some time!
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removal of rough from the perimeter of the green, allowing marginal shots to roll off the green into adjacent bunkers, chipping areas or greenside rough.
One of the better trends to have developed over the last few years on inland/parkland courses. It's one of the reasons why links/heathland golf has always been such fun to many, although sometimes so madly infuriating. Just about any green you miss at, for example, the likes of TOC or Royal Dornoch presents this kind of challenge. Remove collars of rough from around fairway bunkers as well. More firm and fast, less watering, less rough.
All the best
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Pat,
A trend whereby there is "…..removal of rough from the perimeter of the green"?
Albeit I have visited few enough courses around the world I am in lockstep with Scott Warren here. I have never felt that anywhere on the Australian, British, or American courses for that matter, that I have played was there an encroachment of rough upon the putting green surrounds. Pray tell me which American courses are suffering this indignity so that I can make sure to avoid them!!
Cheers Colin
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Pat,
A trend whereby there is "…..removal of rough from the perimeter of the green"?
Albeit I have visited few enough courses around the world I am in lockstep with Scott Warren here. I have never felt that anywhere on the Australian, British, or American courses for that matter, that I have played was there an encroachment of rough upon the putting green surrounds. Pray tell me which American courses are suffering this indignity so that I can make sure to avoid them!!
Cheers Colin
It is very common to see rough tail on the inside of green-side bunkers then to form a ringed wall 2 inches high. I have asked many times why this is the preferred cutting practice for so many clubs. I think the stock answer is that is the expected look.
Below are examples which aren't that bad because at least the flow into the green is fairly wide.
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc430/SaltyLaw/Winchester/file_zpsb22fee33.jpg)
(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3440/3715726600_94e4288042_b.jpg)
More of the type which people are likely hammering on.
(http://xchem.villanova.edu/~bausch/images/huntington/2c.jpg)
Ciao
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Brian, Sean, Thomas,
It is a shock when you see it in the US. And it must be labour-intensive to mix and match between so many very different and distinct mowing heights around the greens when there's green cut, collar cut, fairway cut and rough cut.
Oakmont is the one that hangs in my memory from the pics in Ran's course review:
(http://www.golfclubatlas.com/images/Oakmont6g.jpg)
(http://www.golfclubatlas.com/images/Oakmont13g.jpg)
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Scott Warren,
What happened between 3:37 and 5:32 ?
Did Sean's photos cause an epiphany ?
It's been a common practice to see rough within the green footpad acting as a safety net of sorts, preventing balls from rolling down into bunkers or off the green.
I've always wondered if the Tri-plex was responsible or if it was the quest for "fairness"
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Pat,
As you have pointed out before, in your book I'm a moron. Perhaps as a result, you're going to need to explain where there is any inconsistency between Scott's two posts. One where he says that rough around greens doesn't tend to be a problem in Australia and the UK and another where he shows some pictures of the problem at Oakmont.
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Pat,
I would agree with you that rough holds balls near the green, different than the old Scottish courses, and that it was largely done specifically for that purpose to speed play, and keep maintenance costs down. It might also have been to keep the course tougher, as per the US Open mentality from 1951 on.
Then, in the '92 Open at Pebble, the USGA experimented with it for the first time (from memory, others can correct) and it slowly caught on from there. It might be a concession to both fun golf and older golfers, giving the finesse guys (who by and large are compensating for lost distance with more guile around the greens). So, even though it started out as an idea for variety in US Open set ups, this one might actually make sense for the everyday course, too.
As always, lots of stuff goes on at any point in history, and I might be missing things, but that is my general take on the situation.
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Pat, I couldn't agree more about this issue. One reason why I love watching tournaments in Australia. They seem to have it set up just perfect for my likings.
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Pat,
I would agree with you that rough holds balls near the green, different than the old Scottish courses, and that it was largely done specifically for that purpose to speed play, and keep maintenance costs down. It might also have been to keep the course tougher, as per the US Open mentality from 1951 on.
I think the real culprit was all the irrigation and fertilizer that was applied to golf courses from 1951 on. Before that, the rough on the bunker faces probably wasn't all that rough for most of the summer, and the golf ball rolled down into the hazards more easily. But all of the irrigation meant it all had to be cut much more often, and that's where they made a concession to maintenance costs.
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One of the great skills in golf is being able to get up and down from a thick lie around the greens. I watched players struggle with this (and some excel at it) at the US AM at TCC a few months ago. Being able to swing hard, hit a soft shot and control the rollout is very impressive. It is also a great skill to be able to get up and down from tight lies around the greens (at Pinehurst, for example). I don't think this is an either/or maintenance issue. There is room in the game for both styles.
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Pat,
I would agree with you that rough holds balls near the green, different than the old Scottish courses, and that it was largely done specifically for that purpose to speed play, and keep maintenance costs down. It might also have been to keep the course tougher, as per the US Open mentality from 1951 on.
I think the real culprit was all the irrigation and fertilizer that was applied to golf courses from 1951 on. Before that, the rough on the bunker faces probably wasn't all that rough for most of the summer, and the golf ball rolled down into the hazards more easily. But all of the irrigation meant it all had to be cut much more often, and that's where they made a concession to maintenance costs.
Also too part of the shift may have come about as the rotary mower became a reality. They weren’t really available until the 30’s in their early forms and it was probably 20 or so years until they had refined them enough to be used in a golf course application. Reel mowers (which have been around much longer) really aren’t much use for cutting grass at higher heights.
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Pat,
As you have pointed out before, in your book I'm a moron.
Yes, and you never fail to disappoint
Perhaps as a result, you're going to need to explain where there is any inconsistency between Scott's two posts.
No need to explain, just go back and reread them.
Unfortunately, you're combining two seperate thoughts, as expressed in two distinct sentences, into one thought/sentence.
As I said, you never fail to disappoint.
One where he says that rough around greens doesn't tend to be a problem in Australia and the UK and another where he shows some pictures of the problem at Oakmont.
Go back and reread Scott's two replies
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Tom Doak,
Don't you think that the advent and popularity of the tri-plex played a roll in this ?
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Tom Doak,
Don't you think that the advent and popularity of the tri-plex played a roll in this ?
No pun intended...
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Below is an example of the problem in England. Blackwell is a very good design completely compromised by cut lines (and trees). The problem is especially apparent in winter when the grass stays claggy because the sun doesn't hit the grass for long periods of time. The last time there everybody in our party was much discouraged by the course presentation. The depth of the rough doesn't look too bad, but pay attention to the golfer on the right, his left shoe is out of sight.
(http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff114/seanrobertarble/BLACKWELL/031-1.jpg) (http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff114/seanrobertarble/BLACKWELL/031-1.jpg)
Ciao
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Dan - isn't it a far greater skill and more fun to have numerous options presented to you? On a links there can be ten ways of playing the same shot. Greens choked with rough present one option with a lofted club.
Strange how most of us "morons" play around the world experiencing golf in all its various guises.
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Chappers - I am not sure why Mucci takes exception to Scott's idea that no such trend exists in the UK or Oz, but one never knows with Mucci. To be honest, I wish a trend did exist for England's parkland courses.
Here are a few classic examples at Ridgewood
(http://xchem.villanova.edu/~bausch/images/Ridgewood/6c.jpg)
(http://xchem.villanova.edu/~bausch/images/Ridgewood/6d.jpg)
(http://xchem.villanova.edu/~bausch/images/Ridgewood/8a.jpg)
Below is the grand daddy of them all - bunkers pinching the front entrance with rough on the inside leaving enough space for maybe four golfers to walk through the neck. This look is associated with championship US courses across the country. On these tours, barely a person mentions the cut lines.
(http://xchem.villanova.edu/~bausch/images/Ridgewood/14c.jpg)
Ciao
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It's a mystery, maybe he has lost his passport. For someone who appears to like the classics, which are modelled on the real thing, he appears to avoid the real thing.
I enjoyed Woking on Saturday, the greens do have lots of movement, I need to play them when they are quick! 1 & 9 are very ordinary holes. The new 16th looks neat and it's nice to see a club give a hole a full year to grown in. I guess it will open in the spring. Despite huge amounts of rain Worplesdon remained playable (just) on Sunday. Having won a scrappy knockout in the morning we lunched well and my partner and I were -1 when we dished out a licence in the afternoon. Splendid weekend of foursomes.
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Pat,
If Scott's two posts reflect two seperate thoughts, what led you to believe there had to have been an epiphany between them? Since it was you that originally compared the two posts, no doubt you'll be able to explain why.
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I must admit, when I first saw this thread's title I hoped that it might be off-topic and Patrick would, in the OP, declare a fondness for hipster beards, ladies with full-sleeve tattoos, manufactured reality TV music groups or the paleo diet. No such luck!
Patrick,
I'm sorry you've struggled to understand my two separate points. Let's see if I can't help you out.
It's a shame the game has gone the way it has in America and thick ribbons, sometimes seas, of rough separate the greens from their hazards at many, many courses. It's a shame that one of the great constant joys of golf elsewhere is a rare treat, a trend, in your home country.
As has been noted, the joy of playing golf courses where the hazards and green must be encountered as one cannot be beat. And we are fortunate to have entire continents where this is no "trend".
Here's a great example of what I'm talking about in Britain. The hole is the 16th at Royal St George's. pay attention not only to the bunker shots returning to the sand, but how the tee shot spends so long on the green before finding its resting place in the bunker.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5MZSziSUBWA
And this at Metropolitan in Melbourne needs no description:
(http://img593.imageshack.us/img593/4992/dscn0528hq.jpg)
I hope that has helped you make sense of my earlier contributions.
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Have to concur with Scott here. The end result of the roughification in the US removes the real art and demand of shotmaking.
Regardless the causes, this has helped to take real fun and creativity out of the game.
Probably too much focus on "tour" conditions.
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Rough around the greens, plus rough length fairway bunker collars, is also prevalent at many UK inland/parkland courses. Transatlantic colour TV coverage of tour events and magazine photos have IMO contributed in promoting this look. Hopefully the look is (slowly) disappearing although I'm not holding my breath.
As others have said, shotmaking skills and creativity are removed from the game when it's purely rough around a green, ie. miss a green with rough at the sides, it's gouge a sand/lob wedge time. Low cut, firm and fast green surrounds with run-offs etc provide for a great variety of recovery shots and skills. Great fun as well, conjuring up an unusual recovery shot from an interesting spot, plus balls roll further away from greens when the green surrounds are cut low.
All the best
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Have to concur with Scott here. The end result of the roughification in the US removes the real art and demand of shotmaking.
Regardless the causes, this has helped to take real fun and creativity out of the game.
Probably too much focus on "tour" conditions.
I agree with your first and second second statements--but I'm not sure about the third.
At my place,every green and bunker is virtually ringed with Bermuda.For us,it's 100% a maintenance dollars issue.The guys making the decision have no interest in PGAT conditions--they just don't know how to prioritize a maintenance budget.
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Tom Doak,
Don't you think that the advent and popularity of the tri-plex played a roll in this ?
No pun intended...
How do you know ?
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Chappers - I am not sure why Mucci takes exception to Scott's idea that no such trend exists in the UK or Oz, but one never knows with Mucci.
Sean A,
Well maybe you ought to read what you type.
YOU took exception to "Scott's idea that no such trend exists in the UK" in your reply # 23 when you stated:
Below is an example of the problem in England
Here are a few classic examples at Ridgewood
(http://xchem.villanova.edu/~bausch/images/Ridgewood/6c.jpg)
(http://xchem.villanova.edu/~bausch/images/Ridgewood/6d.jpg)
(http://xchem.villanova.edu/~bausch/images/Ridgewood/8a.jpg)
Have you ever played Ridgewood ?
Have you played it this year ?
Below is the grand daddy of them all - bunkers pinching the front entrance with rough on the inside leaving enough space for maybe four golfers to walk through the neck. This look is associated with championship US courses across the country. On these tours, barely a person mentions the cut lines.
Your lack of familiarity with the steep and pitched terrain is causing you to draw flawed conclusions.
Stick to commenting on courses you've actually been on and your views will have more credibility
(http://xchem.villanova.edu/~bausch/images/Ridgewood/14c.jpg)
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Scott,
Courses like Seminole, NGLA and others are restoring the function of the terrain in the U.S.
For a variety of reasons, buffers have been introduced within the body of the hole and at the green end.
I have to believe that the turning radius of a Tri-plex and the inherent danger in the use of a tri-plex on an elevated green with steep banks played a role in the encroachment of rough into areas never intended to be rough.
In the body of the hole, I think the introduction of single center line automated irrigation systems in the 50's and 60's played a part.
The throw radius of those systems turned benign rough into challenging rough and in many cases resulted in the shrinking of fairways.
As golf's popularity grew and clubs diversified their memberships, "fairness" replaced "penal" as an object or condition of play.
Like the growth of a tree, encroachment was a slow almost imperceptible process. And like the removal of a tree in one swift blow, the removal of the rough becomes controversial due to the immediate visibility, so, there is resistance to change despite the return of function, function not readily understood by most golfers and green chairs.
The good news is that when the iconic clubs engage in the practice, the trickle down effect takes hold and those clubs about to remove the rough can cite the iconic clubs as "exhibit A" , giving the project credibility
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Pat,
Places like Sunningdale New have this down to a fine art, no greenside rough and the wonderful subtle contours carry the ball into adjacent bunkers or some of the greatest greenside collection areas I have ever seen.
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MWP,
One of the most excruciating feelings in golf is watching a marginally or misjudged shot follow the terrain/contours, knowing that the result will not be favorable.
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Mucci
Are you actually following the same thread as Mark, Scott and myself? Yet again, your mind is on vacation and your mouth is running overtime. This has become habitual behaviour, is it something you picked up from Happydale Farms?
Ciao