Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture Discussion Group => Topic started by: Thomas Dai on October 09, 2013, 02:57:21 PM
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Following on from the Ganton thread and the Ganton-Woodhall Spa debate, I though a separate thread on the best heathland courses in the UK would perhaps be appropriate. There may have been such a thread before, but if so, I haven't been able to find it using the sites search engine.
One of the reasons I'd like to gather your thoughts is because I haven't played that many heathlands so I'd like to know where to target for future visits.
With his permission, and to get things rolling, here's Brains list from the Ganton thread plus a couple from my own admittedly limited heathland experience.
Sunningdale Old
Swinley Forest
Sunningdale New
Berkshire Red
Walton Heath Old / New neck and neck with...
...St George's Hill
Alwoodley
Berkshire Blue
New Zealand
Woodhall Spa
Notts (sorry Boony, you know I go for the Southern serenity over the Northern bruisers!!)
Liphook
Worplesdon
Royal Ashdown forest
Woking
Surrey and Berkshire Heaths are tough to beat for me...
PS - I assume we're calling Ganton links?
My own suggestions for inclusion - the wonderful (to me) Midlands courses built by Herbert Fowler at Beau Desert and Harry Colts at Whittington Heath plus Rosemount north of the border.
I'm also partial to the short on the card but still sweat Tadmarton Heath and the similar Green course at Frilford Heath plus the two courses at Enville. The Red at Frilford Heath is nice too.
All the best
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The one big gap in Brian's list is the cluster of heathland courses in Dorset. Broadstone and Parkstone in particular are very good candidates for inclusion in such a list.
I think also that if you regard Alwoodley as heath (technically I believe it would be moorland) then Gleneagles demands consideration.
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Thomas - Beau missed out by the tiniest smidgen of a hair. Go berserk on the place with a chainsaw and things would be different!
I reckon if I had £10 for every time tree removal has been suggested on GCA I'd already have a private jet and be half way to completing a world tour of top courses!
All the best
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West Sussex (Pulborough)?
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David - indeed, one that routinely gets overlooked.
For my money, it's every bit as good as Swinley and Walton Heath (Old), and well ahead of The Berkshire's two courses. 3-7 & 13-17 at Weat Sussex are magnificent stretches.
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West Sussex (Pulborough)?
If I were to pick 5, then it would be (in no particular order):
West Sussex
Woking
St Georges Hill
Alwoodley
Walton Heath
There are a few that I haven't seen but only a few (Swinley & New Zealand being the most prominent ones)... Going by everyone else, maybe Sunningdale should be there as well. But I've only visited once and the above 5 have elements that make them stand out more for me...
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Thomas - Beau missed out by the tiniest smidgen of a hair. Go berserk on the place with a chainsaw and things would be different!
I reckon if I had £10 for every time tree removal has been suggested on GCA I'd already have a private jet and be half way to completing a world tour of top courses!
All the best
Haha, absolutely. Sean has lead that charge but those listening to me in recent weeks must think I'm like a broken record. The man is right. He's right on that, and he's right on width and ROUGH! I'm not sure Sean has ever played a Doak which feels perverse to me. Their philosophies appear to be very closely aligned.
I'm of the Doak-Arble school myself, which is I guess why I keep prattling on about courses like (the admittedly non-healthland) but pretty much wide open and mainly treeless Minchinhampton Old. In fact, some of the £10-per-mention money would have been the result of my own comments herein. IMO the only things to benefit from having trees on golf courses are male dogs and over time, the pockets of tree felling companies (sic)!
As to courses, what do folks think about places I've heard good things about of but not played such as the likes Aldeburgh, Thetford etc? Although they may not be top of the list level contenders would they be worth visiting if in the area?
All the best
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Hankley Common?
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Hankley is obviously the most "heathy" of the lot. Woking the most overrated.
Wentworth still has some heathland on the West around 7, 8, 9, 11, 13, 14 & 15.
I'd add Purdis Heath in Ipswich.
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Sunny Old
Alwoodley (being open-minded)
St Georges Hill
Swinley Forest
Sunny New
Woking
Ganton (being open-minded)
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Beau Desert
Notts (being open-minded)
Addington
Woodhall Spa (being open minded)
Northamptonshire Co
NEED TO LEAVE SOME OPEN SPOTS FOR NEWBIES
Ciao
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UK or English ?
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UK or English ?
All of the UK hence Rosemount/Blairgowrie in my original post. What about the likes of Forfar & Alyth, Boat of Garten and the newer ones east of Edinburgh all from north of the border? Unable to presently recall any in Wales. What about some in Ireland?
All the best
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I was going to say Boat of Garten. What about Baildon or Ogden both are very good moorland courses that get better with each play. Surely Gleneagles Kings and Queens and G-West might soon be on that list. Strensil and Fulford by York are also good shouts thou not in the Alwoodley Sunningdale league.
Jon
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Thomas,
There are no heaths in Ireland... The three closest are Carlow, The Curragh and The Heath.... The first is an excellent course built on sandy soil but I don't know if it ever had heath characteristics - it certainly doesn't now.... The latter two had heath characteristics but have deliberately gone out of their way to follow a parkland style....
I'd like to have a crack at any of the three of them if I'm honest...
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No place for Hindhead? I personally think the back nine is all too easily disregarded.
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To me it is Sunningdale New and everything else is one class behind and in that class you have Sunningdale Old, Woodhall Spa, Ganton,Walton Heath times 2,St Georges Hill and RAF.
Hopefully next time I am home I will be able to add Swinley and New Zealand to that list.
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Not sure if Forfar would qualify as heathland, need to check my Price, but suggest Elgin would.
Niall
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I am in agreement with Michael Wharton-Palmer. The fascination with Sunningdale Old is the UK equivalent of the Maidstone infatuation in the US. I had the great fortune to play there a couple times a week in the summer of 1979 and the fun factor was even better than the Old. There is no way the Old is in the same league strategically and challenge wise with the New. In addition, the new has quite a few more interesting greens. The strategic driving value on the New is about as good as it gets in the British Iles.
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From an old thread on Heathland and there are many :)
http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,20383.25.html
I have one of those Scottish Greensavers books lying here .
They list Heathland courses in Scotland as :
Blairgowrie
Ballumbie Castle
Kemnay
Elgin
Lamlash
Ladybank
Alyth
Dunkeld & Birnam
Forfar
Kirriemuir
Falkirk Tryst
Boat of Garten
Fort Augustus
Torphin Hill
Edzell
Dufftown
Lauder
Moffat
Whitekirk
Lothianburn
The Dukes Course
Fort William
Port Bannatyne
Easter Moffat
Westerwood Hotel GC
Craigie Hill
Gleneagles Kings
Gleaneagles Queens
Gourock
Muir of Ord
Strathpeffer
Galasheils
Innerleithen
Selkirk
Abernethy
Carrbridge
Kingussie
Golspie
Grantown on Spey
Bonar Bridge
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I'm sure this won't be a comprehensive list, but here's a stab at English heathland courses:
The Berkshire (X2)
East Berkshire
Newbury and Crookham (not sure - I haven't been there for MANY years)
Royal Ascot (?)
Swinley Forest
Stoke Poges
Sandiway (though precious little heather survives)
Yelverton
Broadstone
Ferndown
Isle of Purbeck
Knighton Heath
Parkstone
Wareham (?)
South Moor (?)
Orsett
Army (?)
Blackmoor
Liphook
North Hants
Berkhamsted (probably not heath, but plays like one)
Rowany
Charnwood Forest
Woodhall Spa
Thetford
Coxmoor
Notts
Sherwood Forest
Tadmarton Heath
Luffenham Heath
Beau Desert
Penn (haven't been there since I was a boy, so memory may be dangerous)
Whittington Heath (in parts, like the curate's egg)
Aldeburgh
Ipswich (Purdis Heath)
Rushmere
Thorpeness (in parts)
Woodbridge
The Addington
Camberley Heath
Coombe Hill (is there any heather remaining?)
Farnham (part)
Hankley Common
Hindhead (parts)
New Zealand
RAC (X2 but it's over 30 years since last I was there)
Sunningdale (X2)
Sunningdale Ladies
Walton Heath (X2)
Wentworth (X2 - I'm not counting the Edinburgh)
West Hill
Woking
Worplesdon
Crowborough Beacon (bits)
West Sussex
Sutton Coldfield (bits)
Fulford (bits beyond the A64)
Alwoodley
Bingley St Ives (a bit)
Moortown (a little remains)
Sand Moor (does any remain?)
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Just a question gents, for anyone who might know:
In the US, it seems that some private courses/clubs take pride in the playing ability of their members -- i.e. they make no bones about their courses being difficult challenges/hard tests, and the membership can boast that it includes many golfers with low handicaps good enough to handle it.
Amongst these great UK&I healthland courses, do any stand out in the same way/have a similiar aura about them? Or is it instead different there?
thanks
Peter
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Peter,
Sunningdale and Wentworth both actively let it be known that they have a number of very good players and I think Wentworth even offers younger quality players a "deal" on dues.
Whilst at Sunningdale last week I spent a delightful hour talking to past Walker Cupper Ian Caldwell about their memebrship and he was very proud of the clubs heriatge of having a large number of near scratch players.
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All candidates are mentioned I guess but I feel Hankley Common deserves extra mention. The back 9 through the heather are (at the right time of year) nothing short of gorgeous.
Sunningdale New and Old would follow after that. There cant be much better in golf than the view from the 6th back tee on the New, esp heather wise.
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From an old thread on Heathland and there are many :)
http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,20383.25.html
I have one of those Scottish Greensavers books lying here .
They list Heathland courses in Scotland as :
Blairgowrie
Ballumbie Castle
Kemnay
Elgin
Lamlash
Ladybank
Alyth
Dunkeld & Birnam
Forfar
Kirriemuir
Falkirk Tryst
Boat of Garten
Fort Augustus
Torphin Hill
Edzell
Dufftown
Lauder
Moffat
Whitekirk
Lothianburn
The Dukes Course
Fort William
Port Bannatyne
Easter Moffat
Westerwood Hotel GC
Craigie Hill
Gleneagles Kings
Gleaneagles Queens
Gourock
Muir of Ord
Strathpeffer
Galasheils
Innerleithen
Selkirk
Abernethy
Carrbridge
Kingussie
Golspie
Grantown on Spey
Bonar Bridge
I can't speak to many of the others, but if Westerwood is heath then I am a Dutchman...
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All candidates are mentioned I guess but I feel Hankley Common deserves extra mention. The back 9 through the heather are (at the right time of year) nothing short of gorgeous.
Sunningdale New and Old would follow after that. There cant be much better in golf than the view from the 6th back tee on the New, esp heather wise.
Hankley is top drawer if beauty is your only priority but the golf is second tier at best. In particular the greens are far too dull to be regarded alongside the real big names.
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Peter,
Sunningdale and Wentworth both actively let it be known that they have a number of very good players and I think Wentworth even offers younger quality players a "deal" on dues.
Whilst at Sunningdale last week I spent a delightful hour talking to past Walker Cupper Ian Caldwell about their memebrship and he was very proud of the clubs heriatge of having a large number of near scratch players.
MWP - thank you. Another question then: are Sunningdale and Wentworth also, coincidentally or not, the 'toughest tests' among the top heathland courses?
Peter
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Sunningdale Old is one of the easier heathland courses. It is however a golfers club, attracting top blue blooded amateurs. Last time I played two ex-Ryder cuppers were having a quiet fourball in front of us. Both are "members" and regulars at the club. Care to name them?
Walton Heath Old & New are by far the hardest. Wentworth West is a competition course and therefore relentlessly hard & not exactly fun to play.
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thanks, Mark - that's interesting.
On the ex-Ryder Cuppers, the only one who comes to mind immediately is Paul McGinley, who I imagine playing golf all the time, just for the fun of it
Peter
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Sunningdale Old is one of the easier heathland courses. It is however a golfers club, attracting top blue blooded amateurs. Last time I played two ex-Ryder cuppers were having a quiet fourball in front of us. Both are "members" and regulars at the club. Care to name them?
Walton Heath Old & New are by far the hardest. Wentworth West is a competition course and therefore relentlessly hard & not exactly fun to play.
Agree, Sam Torrence, Agree, Agree
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I just returned from a fabulous trip to England and played many of the courses listed here. I was blown away by St. George's Hill. The variety of holes and shots coupled with the incredible topography was fantastic. As much as I liked Swinley Forest, Walton Heath, Sunningdale Old and New, and Woodhall Spa, I thought SGH was even better.
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Sam Torrence yes, the other is one of the most well known Sunningdale faces but few know he actually played in the Ryder Cup.
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Sam Torrence yes, the other is one of the most well known Sunningdale faces but few know he actually played in the Ryder Cup.
Michael King?
Ciao
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Spot on Sean, Queenie King did play in one RC.
I've only played Woking once and wasn't overcome by the course so another visit tomorrow will be interesting, especially with Worpy on Sunday.
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Spot on Sean, Queenie King did play in one RC.
I've only played Woking once and wasn't overcome by the course so another visit tomorrow will be interesting, especially with Worpy on Sunday.
I thought I saw him when I was at Sunny a few years ago. I sort of recognized the guy, then did some research when I went home - that was the only name I could make fit, but I wasn't sure.
Ciao
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Spot on Sean, Queenie King did play in one RC.
I've only played Woking once and wasn't overcome by the course so another visit tomorrow will be interesting, especially with Worpy on Sunday.
I hope to hear you change your tune Chappers. I though Woking was a huge highlight of my trip and very underrated (in the rankings at least). 1-6 at Woking is simple strategic golf at it's best, 11-14 almost as good. I think it's well worth the game for 3,4,5,6 alone - brilliant holes.
9 is an awful hole, buts at least gets the impossible climb from the back of the course over in one hole.
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Spot on Sean, Queenie King did play in one RC.
I've only played Woking once and wasn't overcome by the course so another visit tomorrow will be interesting, especially with Worpy on Sunday.
I thought I saw him when I was at Sunny a few years ago. I sort of recognized the guy, then did some research when I went home - that was the only name I could make fit, but I wasn't sure.
Ciao
He's an EGD director too... They being also based in Sunningdale...
Mark - I have Woking in my top 5 heaths primarily for the greens. Some other great stuff there as well but the greens are like no others...
Will - Good to see some love for St Georges Hill... I agree
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Yes Ally, I too have Woking in my top group, but its also because of the bunkering and playability of the design. In truth, the London heathlands as a group are quite playable in terms of getting higher cappers around the courses without too much grief. Rough and trees are generally managed better than other places. New Zealand is quite tight though. With the exception of Sunny New & Ganton (which is only really called a heathland for lack of a better label), which are more challenging, I tend to rate the more forgiving heathland courses. In fact, I am going to cross off Ganton because its more than a stretch to call it a heathland - its an inland links (hey - its better than warm climate links :D)
Sunny Old
Alwoodley (being open-minded)
St Georges Hill
Swinley Forest
Sunny New
Woking
Ganton (not being open-minded)
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Beau Desert
Notts (being open-minded)
Addington
Woodhall Spa (being open minded)
Northamptonshire Co
Ciao
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Sean, we agree on Ganton(!) To call it a heathland course is to stretch things too far. I don't like the inland links description, either. Ganton is one of a kind, really. Could it be called moorland, sitting as it does on the edge of the North York Moors?
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Sean, we agree on Ganton(!) To call it a heathland course is to stretch things too far. I don't like the inland links description, either. Ganton is one of a kind, really. Could it be called moorland, sitting as it does on the edge of the North York Moors?
I think it is an inland links - a real one... Possibly the only one in GB&I... Still - I too hate that label because it sets a precedent for any parkland course without trees to use.
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Just call it Ganton then. Folks will have to see it to know its unique - or just trust others.
Ciao
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Amazed to hear there are none in Ireland.
Here are some others that get mentioned from time to time - not sure where they'd fit into a ranking though. I'll leave that to others more qualified to suggest.
Delamere Forest
Sherwood Forest
Lindrick
Worksop
Sutton Coldfield
Little Aston
Enville (36)
Copt Heath
Blackwell
Isle of Purbeck
Thorpeness
Luffenham
Broadstone
Parkstone
Ferndown
Wareham
Stoneham
Brokenhurst Manor
Remedy Oak
Dorset GCC
East Devon
Teignmouth
Also, desperately trying to get a Welsh course in this category, there's Llandrindod Wells and Mountain Ash too, on higher ground but well draining and heathery.
All the best
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Aren't heathland and moorland effectively the same thing?
Jon
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Aren't heathland and moorland effectively the same thing?
Jon
Yes. Moorland is a sub-category of "Heath"....
Although the heath we usually associate golf with is actually also a subset of "Heath", more low lying and dry heath... and different to Moorland (upper and wetter)...
That Scottish list of courses is really broadening it out too far...
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Although the heath we usually associate golf with is actually also a subset of "Heath", more low lying and dry heath... and different to Moorland (upper and wetter)...
That makes sense. So what the question here really is is "top 25 low lying dry heathland cousrse".
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Although the heath we usually associate golf with is actually also a subset of "Heath", more low lying and dry heath... and different to Moorland (upper and wetter)...
That makes sense. So what the question here really is is "top 25 low lying dry heathland cousrse".
top 25 low lying dry heathland courses
As that's pretty much what I was trying to get at this definition is fine and I shall amend the threads title accordingly.
All the best
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So, following a copy-n-paste exercise, these are courses mentioned.
Would someone more knowledgable than me now care to do a heavy edit to reduce the list to the top 25.
By all means have a 26-50 listing as well. Some exclusions detailed are the bottom of the listing.
top 25-ish low lying dry UK&I heathlands - contenders
The Berkshire Blue and Red
East Berkshire
Newbury and Crookham
Royal Ascot
Swinley Forest
Stoke Poges
Sandiway
Broadstone
Ferndown
Isle of Purbeck
Knighton Heath
Parkstone
Wareham
South Moor
Orsett
Army
Blackmoor
Liphook
North Hants
Berkhamsted
Rowany
Charnwood Forest
Woodhall Spa
Thetford
Coxmoor
Notts Hollinwell
Sherwood Forest
Tadmarton Heath
Luffenham Heath
Beau Desert
Penn
Whittington Heath
Aldeburgh
Purdis Heath
Rushmere
Thorpeness
Woodbridge
The Addington
Camberley Heath
Coombe Hill
Farnham
Hankley Common
Hindhead
New Zealand
RAC
Sunningdale Old and New
Sunningdale Ladies
Walton Heath Old and New
Wentworth East
West Hill
Woking
Worplesdon
Crowborough Beacon
West Sussex
Sutton Coldfield
Fulford
Alwoodley
Bingley St Ives
Moortown
Sand Moor
Delamere Forest
Sherwood Forest
Lindrick
Worksop
Nothamptonshire County
Frilford Heath Red and Green
Enville Highgate and Lodge
Copt Heath
Blackwell
Luffenham Heath
Stoneham
Brokenhurst Manor
Remedy Oak
Dorset GCC
East Devon
Teignmouth
Northumberland
Strensil
Downfield
Ballumbie Castle
Kemnay
Elgin
Lamlash
Ladybank
Alyth
Dunkeld & Birnam
Forfar
Kirriemuir
Falkirk Tryst
Fort Augustus
Torphin Hill
Edzell
Lauder
Moffat
Whitekirk
Lothianburn
The Dukes Course at StA
Fort William
Port Bannatyne
Easter Moffat
Craigie Hill
Gourock
Muir of Ord
Strathpeffer
Galasheils
Innerleithen
Selkirk
Bonar Bridge
Not included as not sufficiently low lying -
Gleneagles Kings & Queens
G-West
Llandrindod Wells
Mountain Ash
Yelverton
Kingussie*
Grantown on Spey*
Boat of Garten*
Abernethy*
Carrbridge*
Ogden*
Baildon*
Ski slopes
Dufftown*
Heathland like but not included as too close to the sea -
Formby
Formby Ladies
Golspie
Panmure
Monifieth
Scotscraig
Carnoustie Burnside
Archerfield Fidra and Dirleton
Renaissance
Not included for simply being Ganton -
Ganton
* = later revision
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I'd kill 90% of the Scottish ones in that... Can't think of a genuine dry heath Scottish course... and some of those are straight out parkland...
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If low lying is part of the qualification then you can take out more than Gleneagles from the Scottish list. Kingussie for a start although it would be firmly in the moorland subset I would suggest. Likewise nearby Grantown and Boat of Garton etc.
Dufftown would be in it sown sub-set of heathland headed "Ski Slope".
Niall
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I am at a bit of a loss as to what parameters being set for this. Gleneagles, Boat of Garten or Grantown out for being too high yet Abernethy, Carrbridge, Ogden and Baildon which are much higher, still in. Maybe height above sea level should be set ::). To be a little pedantic, moorland is something that occurs naturally where as heathland is manmade and as such it is heathland that is a subset of moorland ;).
ps. Golspie so cruelly thrown out twice :'(
Jon
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You can spin it any way. Moor sometimes needs man managed as well but given certain variants are heather clad, I prefer to see it as the subset. Either way it comes down to slightly different soil, vegetation and climate says I. Dry vs Wet is probably easier than low vs high
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We should probably include Northumberland in our master list.
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You can spin it any way. Moor sometimes needs man managed as well but given certain variants are heather clad, I prefer to see it as the subset. Either way it comes down to slightly different soil, vegetation and climate says I. Dry vs Wet is probably easier than low vs high
There are the goalpost!!! Oh no, moved again ;D
Ally,
heathlands always need human intervention otherwise they revert back to their natural state.
Mark,
yes, I would agree Northumberland should be on there.
Jon
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Revisions for Abernethy, Carrbridge, Ogden, Baildon, Northumberland & Golspie (only once!) made.
Which other courses should be deleted/moved to another category (ie the 90% of the Scottish ones)? Any other suggested courses for inclusion?
All the best
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You can spin it any way. Moor sometimes needs man managed as well but given certain variants are heather clad, I prefer to see it as the subset. Either way it comes down to slightly different soil, vegetation and climate says I. Dry vs Wet is probably easier than low vs high
There are the goalpost!!! Oh no, moved again ;D
Ally,
heathlands always need human intervention otherwise they revert back to their natural state.
Jon
As will many of the moors.... and even the links.... They all follow succession to trees in the end, just some quicker than others... Links are only links because they are accreted anew. Once static, they will become big pine forests in the end...
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Yes Ally,
Moorland and Dune/Linksland can be natural habitats where as Heathland is ALWAYS manmade is the point I was making. The exception might prove the rule but it does not make it.
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Outside of this group, I have never heard anything negative or indeed less than glowing about Hankley other than they sometime close too early!! I think the greens have a lot of interest - one or two are on the flat side but nowhere near as flat as Woodhall, but several have a lot of breaks and not so subtle changes. And the greens are nearly always on the quick side. Still one of my top 5 favourite courses and vies with Sunny New, for me, at the top of the pack among heaths. I played Westhill for the first time in years last week - and that is a superb course and I now rate that as best of the 3 Ws - at least this week!!
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Aren't heathland and moorland effectively the same thing?
Jon
What point are you making Jon?... This was your question back at the start of this discussion...
Low lying dry heaths are always manmade - mainly because the succession to forestry is quicker - wet heaths / moors are not necessarily manmade in the same fashion (i.e they will be a lot slower to turn back to forestry, same with duneland)... But they will still need intervention over time... And heather (from where the word heath derives) can be found in these habitats as well...
In other words there is a difference, best designated by soil type, altitude, geographical location and climate... But they all form part of the bigger family of "Heath"... That's if you decide a moor is a subset of a heath...
Why did you even bother with your (mis)leading question above if you had decided what your answer was - No.
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Outside of this group, I have never heard anything negative or indeed less than glowing about Hankley other than they sometime close too early!! I think the greens have a lot of interest - one or two are on the flat side but nowhere near as flat as Woodhall, but several have a lot of breaks and not so subtle changes. And the greens are nearly always on the quick side. Still one of my top 5 favourite courses and vies with Sunny New, for me, at the top of the pack among heaths. I played Westhill for the first time in years last week - and that is a superb course and I now rate that as best of the 3 Ws - at least this week!!
I think Westhill is really good as well... Always gets completely overlooked...
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Ally,
you have to keep statements in the context of their order. I initially suggested that moorland and heathland are in the same category from a golfing point of view hence my initial question as I wanted to know if moorland courses where up for consideration.
In a later post it was suggested that moorland is a sub set of heathland but as moorland is usually naturally forming where as heathland is always manmade and there is far more moorland both in the UK and worldwide than heathland it seems to me that actually heathland is the subset of moorland and not the other way round. That was my point. I would also imagine there are also more moorland course than heathland courses.
I get the impression that many here think that heathland really means courses looking like Sunningdale and the heading has been steadily redefined to exclude any other type. It was an interesting initial question that is becoming narrowly bland in a rapidly decreasing manner :'(
Jon