Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture Discussion Group => Topic started by: Bill Satterfield on September 22, 2013, 11:29:32 PM
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Last month I played at Black Mesa along with a few other courses in New Mexico. The other courses were all in great shape but Black Mesa was in the worst shape I've seen at a course in a long time. The amount of weeds throughout was embarrassing by virtually anyone's standard. The turf was so thin that there were a few tee shots I hit straight down the middle that would hit and roll until it stopped in a bunker or ran all the way out to the rough/desert. When a course has that much undulation in the fairways and greens it becomes virtually unplayable in spots when the ground is that hard and turf that thin. You could tell the course has great bones with intriguing and scenic holes, but I was pretty disappointed with what I found there. Obviously this hasn't always been the case given the number of accolades Black Mesa has received over the years, so I was just curious if there was any insight on what is going on there.
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Good friend of mine just got back from playing there last weekend, same commentary. Sad.
As a side note, if I recall, wasn't Mr. Doak going to build a second course down there? What is the status of that?
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If they are having difficulty maintaining the first course, the chances of a second one being built seems remote.
TK
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This is interesting to know. I was seriously considering making a trip down there this coming month. If the conditions are truly this poor, maybe I will postpone my trip until next year. Does this appear to be a new issue, or is this something that has been happening for a while?
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I was out there earlier in the year and played Black Mesa along with several others. I was told that the conditioning of the golf course has suffered over the past couple years by a local resident who plays there regularly.
It's very unfortunate as the architecture out there is awesome. The conditioning needs to improve or the downward spiral will continue...
Mark
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Paging Andy Troeger......
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This is unfortunate if so--Apache Stronghold redux?
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I have not been up there this year. I played last year and the weeds were admittedly noticeable although I didn't think the conditions at that time affected the playability of the course. The course has always been very firm, but in a reasonable fashion.
We had been in a pretty awful drought up until about a month ago. We've had a lot of rain lately, although not like Colorado. I'm not sure if that would help or not.
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Well, I have not played it in some time, but it was super hard conditions back in the day. I don't know if the quality of the construction really was up to the design quality. Plus it IS New Mexico. Even though it is a short drive from Sante Fe, New Mexico is a very impoverished state, sort of the Southwest version of West Virginia. My son currently is n the PGM program at New Mexico State in Las Cruces, so I have spent my fair share of time in NM. The poverty is unbelievable. There just is not enough local money, along with tourism, to keep a course like Black Mesa in top condition. The courses in an around Albuquerque seem to do a better job of thriving.
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The condition of the fairways and speed of the greens reminded me of Donegal courses like Nairn and Port Noo and Port Salaon which have very small budgets, in the end conditions looked a lot worse than they played. Issues on the greens were more troublesome to me.
Overall I thought of it as Carne in New Mexico.
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Two interesting videos from Pat Brockwell, the super at Black Mesa, regarding the conditioning issues, particularly grubs. He is optimistic.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oYOEb3cBEO0&list=UUS-NJYb4Ln2BjMRYsMy33cw&index=2
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fiicLCwzsOE&list=UUS-NJYb4Ln2BjMRYsMy33cw&index=1
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Thanks for posting those Stewart. It is great to hear from Pat that this was just one of those things that can happen and that it should not affect operations in future seasons. I have a dusting of snow in the yard currently here in Albuquerque, so hopefully that does not have too much impact on growing in those spots!
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I was down there playing a few weeks ago and got some pictures. I will upload them and get them up ASAP. The area had some really good late summer rain that I am sure helped as it wasn't as bad as I feared it would be.
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8)
"The turf was so thin that there were a few tee shots I hit straight down the middle that would hit and roll until it stopped in a bunker or ran all the way out to the rough/desert."
hmmmm, it was like that when it opened, you're not supposed to hit it down the middle on many holes!
a couple years ago april we noticed they had a lot of dandelions on the hils, didn't affect play but are we talking carpet of weeds?
Pat Brockwell will get it back in tune, I'm sure,
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I played Black Mesa a few days ago. They are still experiencing some turf issues. I spoke to the pro who told me that they let Pat Brockwell go and have recently hired a new superintendent. In addition to the grub problem they have suffered from a long and difficult winter and irrigation issues. The pro said now that the overnight temps are in the 50's and they are being generous with watering he expects conditions to improve in the near term. I'm not sure if I see the current conditions as cup half full or half empty. I hope they get the course healthy. The place was pretty empty and some guys I met there decided to play Taos CC rather than re-play BM. The course was playable, but there are problems with a couple greens, many fairways and even some teeing areas being overrun with weeds and dandelions. Here are a few examples.
(https://farm3.staticflickr.com/2905/14191320188_b1f3f822fa_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/nC3e5h)Black Mesa #6 tee - Dandelions and other weeds on teeing grounds and parts of fairways r (https://flic.kr/p/nC3e5h)
(https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5238/14376495812_2ce8faf945_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/nUpiks)Black Mesa #5 view back r (https://flic.kr/p/nUpiks)
(https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5119/14374600531_b9fe0077b4_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/nUezWc)Black Mesa #7 from front tee r (https://flic.kr/p/nUezWc)
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This is disappointing to hear, I was going to try and play Black Mesa on August 1st, I am down with brown as the cool people around here say, but I am not down with dead.
Any other suggestions for Santa Fe besides Paa Koo and Twin Warriors?
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I hope they can pull it together. It's a really neat place.
Mark
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That last photo of #7 is one of the best vistas on the course--I really hope they can get past all of this. I haven't been up since all of this started, it was always supposed to be brown, firm, and a bit rustic, but nothing like those photos.
Stewart, are those photos indicative of the entire course, or the worst of it? Just curious.
Jason--honestly I'd go to Black Mesa is the current condition and see it once. There's nothing else in NM that you're really missing out on as long as you see Paa-Ko. Paa-Ko is really good too, but those two are the most interesting to see by a long-shot. Other than Twin Warriors, for other rounds I'd go to Pueblo de Cochiti or UNM Championship (near ABQ airport). Marty Sanchez is a pretty good muni in Santa Fe. Make sure to schedule Paa-Ko on a day where you can play the original 18, if possible.
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I was there last July and they blamed the conditioning on an irrigation problem that they had supposedly fixed. That is the only time I have played there and was very disappointed.
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I was there last July and they blamed the conditioning on an irrigation problem that they had supposedly fixed. That is the only time I have played there and was very disappointed.
I was there in early May of last year and the condition was very poor. The locals blamed it on an unusually harsh winter.
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Any other suggestions for Santa Fe besides Paa Koo and Twin Warriors?
The two closest to Santa Fe are Marty Sanchez Muni, which is about 15 minutes South of SF and Towa which is about 20 minutes North at a Tribal Resort/Casino. Towa has 27 holes and exceeded my expectations.
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That last photo of #7 is one of the best vistas on the course--I really hope they can get past all of this. I haven't been up since all of this started, it was always supposed to be brown, firm, and a bit rustic, but nothing like those photos.
#7 is a nice vista among several nice vistas. I almost eagled #7. Tee shot into the left fairway bunker. 140 yard approach that hung on the lip. The pro and super drove by just as the ball came to rest and commented. Little did they know I had more double bogeys than anything else that day. :-[
Stewart, are those photos indicative of the entire course, or the worst of it? Just curious.
The holes posted are among the worst, but almost every hole has some dead areas and/or dandelions. Some just in small areas and others more wide-spread. The course was still playable, although I rolled the ball a few times in fairways where I landed in dead or damaged areas. I enjoyed my round despite my bad play and the conditions, but other players I spoke to were not happy.
Jason--honestly I'd go to Black Mesa is the current condition and see it once.
+1
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I was there this week as well, and the experience for me was an enlightening one. As a visual matter, I can't remember the last time I saw a course in such a state (clumpy teeing grounds; patchy fairways with 6" dandelions in places; some good greens, but many affected by dead spots). And yet, I still really enjoyed my time on the course, and would still recommend anyone on the DG that was in the area to at least check it out.
I'll admit it was a bit of a distracting walk, as I was constantly wondering what lead to the current state, and what would be needed to right the ship. But the turf played reasonably predictably, and did not prevent the interesting strategies of the course from rising to the top.
Unfortunately, as a commercial matter it seems like their target market is much less tolerant of these imperfections (again, some of which are quite significant). They have reduced their fees for the time being in light of the current course condition, but for me $50 for 36 holes was more than fair.
As an aside, for any agronomists among us (armchair or otherwise)- I took this picture of a divot taken out of one of the FW dry patches. I know it's not the best picture, but curious to see if anyone has any thoughts. The director of golf's basic message was that more watering was the prescription to get things back to health, but that seemed a bit simplistic to my untrained mind.
-Alan
(http://i.imgur.com/U6Ozkzq.jpg)
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Tough to see the photos. Apache Stronghold redux.
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(http://i.imgur.com/U6Ozkzq.jpg)
Is that a grub?
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Is that a grub?
It certainly looks like one. I was actually on the lookout for them, but didn't notice that one until looking at the picture after returning home. I don't know where grubs fall on the spectrum of turf issues, or whether they were in fact a big cause of the problems on the course, but those spotty dead-looking patches were fairly widespread.
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I played there today. I hadn't been there since 2007.
It seems to be in significantly better condition than it was a month ago--judging from the description and the pictures posted on June 10. Not great condition, nor top 100 public course worthy condition nor even good condition, but definitely playable. I was never distracted by the lack of conditions, although it would have made it funner. Still a very fun round of golf, at an appropriately discounted rate ($46 riding at 1130 on a Sunday). My guess and hope is that the (new, I think) management is trying to get things back to the way they were.
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That's great news, thanks for the update!
Mark
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Yeah, still a long way to go, but reason for cautious optimism I think.
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After some confusion over a defunct website and a phone that was busy for several hours, I am set for 7am this coming Friday if anyone else would like to join. I last played in October, 2003 in the officially sanctioned GCA event, looking forward to it.
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After some confusion over a defunct website and a phone that was busy for several hours, I am set for 7am this coming Friday if anyone else would like to join. I last played in October, 2003 in the officially sanctioned GCA event, looking forward to it.
Has it really been that long since the Land of Enchantment Tour? :o
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8) Bill Yes it has and we've been back there twice... and to paa ko ridge.. but you may better remember the group's outing to a local fav
(https://farm3.static.flickr.com/2322/2481768605_cd34cd10f1_o.jpg)
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8) Bill Yes it has and we've been back there twice... and to paa ko ridge.. but you may better remember the group's outing to a local fav
(https://farm3.static.flickr.com/2322/2481768605_cd34cd10f1_o.jpg)
I took a group of four couples there in May 2008. Had a great time, played Black Mesa twice. They weren't exactly sure what to make of it! And yes, dinner at both the Pink Adobe and Shed. Green sauce.
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A quick update before we head up the mountain for a morning hike. I arrived at the course before most of the staff and read some of the announcements in the windows apologizing to patrons for the watering during the day and that they want to get the course conditions back to where they were in the past. It had rained an inch the night before and the sprinklers were on when I arrived. The fairways still had some bump and run, however the greens were fairly slow from what I remembered. Overall, conditions were much better than I was expecting and probably have improved since Bill started this thread almost a year ago.
There were some bare spots in the fairways and my guess is that you had about a 25% chance that your ball was going to end up in one of the spots. There were still a decent amount of dandelions in the fairways and especially the rough, but quite honestly, everything was mowed down and did not affect the overall playability in my opinion. You do get sense that conditions have and are improving.
I will say that I was happy that I returned after 11 years and that the fun factor still remains. I love some of the blind drives over the flags on #1 and #4 and hit the drive of my life on #10 over the left side bunkers cutting the corner. #11 is a very scenic par three and #13 with the hump in the middle is still a hoot. The par 5, #16 which goes straight up the hill to a hill top green with a tremendous amount of movement is a hole where the design matches it’s beauty to me.
I have attached a few low quality photos of the day.
#7
(https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5567/14809193865_6abbd467ca_z.jpg)
#11
(https://farm3.staticflickr.com/2909/14622549529_7c607f2679_z.jpg)
#16
(https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5570/14809213735_5f399a2a99_z.jpg)
#17 I believe this is one of the rock formations used in the filming of "Looney Tunes", poor coyote..
(https://farm3.staticflickr.com/2911/14808865412_f20b20d8c5_z.jpg)
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Thanks for the skinny.
And that Moses ray pic is sick.
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I played there yesterday. Turfgrass (other than greens) was thicker and healthier looking than I remember it from last year, perhaps because NM has gotten a lot of rain this year. Grass was fairly high though in the fairway--not really firm nor fast. Towa, just down the road, which I also played yesterday was not in great shape either-lot of bare spots or over-watered spots, despite probably having a much bigger maintenance budget. Also, it was hard to get a tee to stick in their tee boxes and still have it high enough to be the appropriate height to tee a driver. Probably the local climate is not great for growing and maintaining grass, or else Towa's superintendent is not very good.
About 14 of the 18 greens on Black Mesa had brown lines and/or patches all over them, with several black spots with no grass. One of the 20ish year old Native Americans who man the pro shop said the issues with the greens were due to thatch, perhaps due to not aerating in the spring. They are scheduled to aerate this week, which he said he hoped would fix the issue after a while. I don't know enough about grass to know if that makes sense. The greens were slow as a result. (6 or 7 on the stimp I would guess, but that's just a guess)
Still I thought the conditions were ok for play and didn't really affect my score. I wouldn't take a non Kool-Aid drinking buddy out there this year though.
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Alex,
When I was there in March the fairways were spotty and the ball would settle down and this sweeper had to resort to preferred lies to have an enjoyable game. Is that still the case? The greens were in good condition for coming out of the winter.
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Alex,
When I was there in March the fairways were spotty and the ball would settle down and this sweeper had to resort to preferred lies to have an enjoyable game. Is that still the case? The greens were in good condition for coming out of the winter.
No, the ball generally sat up pretty well on the fairways and rough. Summer is the rainiest season here and we got more than usual this year so most of the courses have been in good shape. There were a few bare spots, but I didn't end up in any of them. Not sure what your standard is though. I never fix a lie unless I'm playing in a competition that allows it.
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Played there in May. Ranger told me they are under yet another management change and run by one of the tribes now and golf is not a big emphasis. Said it was a budget issue. Every other course in NM of note is always in grand shape.
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Not to thread jack, but this seems a good place to ask if anyone has been out to Santa Fe CC lately. While it wasn't spectacular when I used to go there the greens would be nice a firm and the course better than people thought.Walked some beautiful high desert days out there.
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Not to thread jack, but this seems a good place to ask if anyone has been out to Santa Fe CC lately. While it wasn't spectacular when I used to go there the greens would be nice a firm and the course better than people thought.Walked some beautiful high desert days out there.
It is an ok course. Conditioning was much improved this year. I much prefer Marty Sanchez Links just down the road from it.
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I went there a few years ago (3-4 years) and the fairways and greens were in excellent shape....sad to hear they've been having issues.
The course is a gem IMO and would be a shame to become a dog track conditions wise...