Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture Discussion Group => Topic started by: Patrick_Mucci on August 26, 2013, 12:31:20 AM
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you've ever play on a course not prepared for a competition ?
Not long ago I played Tehama and was stunned by the green speeds.
I have never played greens at a club, not prepped for a competition, that were so fast.
And yes, I've played Oakmont.
They were easily 13+ and maybe 14+
It was a shock to play greens that fast.
They were true, but fast beyond belief.
What clubs keep their greens at high speeds for regular member play and how fast are they ?
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Pat,
I've also played Oakmont recently and those may be some of the fasted largest greens I've played. However my personal award for fastest greens goes to Royal Melbourne and Kingston Heath. I can't tell you the stimp but I can certainly say they were scary fast and really felt like putting on hilly marble. They were also extremely true and I was told to please put my bag down in the middle of the greens or where-ever my ball was. The other gentlemen had push carts and were members and pushed their carts right across the greens. That's how hard and impenetrable they were I guess.
And yes while Oakmont was fast they just weren't in the ball park of those two.
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Pat,
I've also played Oakmont recently and those may be some of the fasted largest greens I've played. However my personal award for fastest greens goes to Royal Melbourne and Kingston Heath. I can't tell you the stimp but I can certainly say they were scary fast and really felt like putting on hilly marble. They were also extremely true and I was told to please put my bag down in the middle of the greens or where-ever my ball was. The other gentlemen had push carts and were members and pushed their carts right across the greens. That's how hard and impenetrable they were I guess.
And yes while Oakmont was fast they just weren't in the ball park of those two.
David
RM's greens are as consistently fast as I've experienced anywhere. That said, they are more than manageable providing you aren't above the hole!
They no longer allow golfers to wheel their buggies across greens. This practice however, is more than common in the state of Victoria (Australia). In fact, RM is in the minority for not allowing it!
Ben
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Baltimore CC Five Farms course - they had to slow them down for a senior major.
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;D :D :D
Played Rolling Green in Philly in a qualifier many moons ago . That day they were incredibly fast.
Day in and day out , it's hard to be faster than Oakmont .
p.s. on #2 that day at Rolling Green , a big crowd of members was watching everyone three putt. I had a nasty putt from back to front, played twenty feet of break and lipped it out to their amazement . Not so lucky on # four . Had a 10 foot downhiller that just missed and rolled off the front and 75 yards down hill . Gimme the sand wedge lol!
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The Farm in Dalton, GA. The greens consistently run 12+ for regular weekday member play.
It was a startling experience; I had never played at that speed before. To lip out from 10' for birdie, come to rest 20 yds. off the green and end up picking up was, um, shocking.
It did, however, give me a completely different appreciation for what it means when pros play the Masters and don't three putt all week.
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Escondido in Austin, TX in January when they had their bent greens. A couple of feet faster than any round I've played at Oakmont.
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Played Aronimink back in Sept 2009 with fellow GCAer Dan B. Yowser, don't know what they stimped at but they were icy!
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Crystal Downs, Butler National, and Oakmont are the fastest I've played. Defensive putting at times.
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J Chrisham reminds me the that fastest green I've ever putted was the downhill putt from the back of the 11th green at Crystal Downs. I hit the green in regulation and finished the hole by picking up.
Bob
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Seminole at the end of the season and Sebonack in October are probably the two fastest green sets I've come across in recent times.
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Kinloch Golf Club on bentgrass in June, no less.
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It's not as known as some other popular choices, but Stonewall gets their greens unbelievably fast in the fall. Having less traffic out there than most GAP clubs probably helps. Ive played there a few times where I've been scared to hit putts.
Mark
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MPCC Shore in February; they were the fastest greens I have ever putted on.
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Baltimore CC Five Farms course - they had to slow them down for a senior major.
+1
Played Baltimore this summer and they were as difficult as any greens I've been on in a long time if not ever. very defensive coming down hill and just plain fast while still being reasonable given the amount of slope on the greens.
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J Chrisham reminds me the that fastest green I've ever putted was the downhill putt from the back of the 11th green at Crystal Downs. I hit the green in regulation and finished the hole by picking up.
Bob
Bob, That's funny because I hit one on the back left of 10 and putted off the green to a front right placement and eventually picked up as well. Just nasty! As you know 11 takes no prisoners, similar to #1 if you are above the hole.
Jack
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I'm going to go with:
LACC pre-renovation...played in April 06 or 07.
The Preserve in June 08.
Pikewood National, October 2010 or so.
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Mountain Lake this past March
I'm not an expert on stimp speeds but would guess it was 13+
They said that Graeme Mcdowell was there a week before to tune up for Augusta
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RTJ
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Grandfather, Pikewood, Oakmont, Sand Hills, get my vote.
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Cherry Downs in Pickering, Ontario
I found myself putting defensively the whole way around, which is not the most enjoyable experience.
TK
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They may have had done a little "extra" to them that particular week as it was Ryder Cup week and expecting more guests than usual, but Chicago GC last year were incredibly fast. I would hazard a guess they were in the 13-13.5 range for our round.
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A few years ago the super at Chicago Highlands decided to "US Open" the greens. No idea about stimp but I putted off a few, probably five four-putts. Everything had to be run up on the green or else it looked like you hit a cart path. No fun.
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Sand Hills in late summer / early fall has the fastest greens I've ever played. Absolutely love the greens out there, but get above the hole and you're a dead man (especially on hole #1).
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Squire Creek in Louisiana. Outside of that, Oakmont and Sebonack.
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I've played quite a few different places with really hard and fast greens, but it's always hard to tell if it's random or consistent due to weather conditions, green slopes, or something else.
Of all the courses I've played a bunch the most consistently fast greens I've played are at my home course, Town & Country in Saint Paul. They are old (I think most are at least 80+ y/o) classic greens that consist of mostly Poa and creeping bentgrass. Adding to the general speed is that there are a few greens with a ton of slope (mostly back to front) that can make keeping downhill putts on the putting surface difficult. The greens are fast most of the year but they hit another gear in the fall post Labor Day when the cooler temperatures allow for more aggressive cutting and rolling. I'm not really a speed freak when it comes to putting greens as I'll take smooth and slow any day...but the members at my course take a certain amount of pride in the speed and severity of our greens.
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Chicago Golf Club's greens were rolling at 15 last year during Ryder Cup week. They had the course as firm and fast as any I'd ever seen. I had one shot out of a bunker that landed ten feet on the green and came back into the bunker. My playing partner (no chop is he) putted a ball off the same green into the same bunker. Being above or on the wrong side of the hole ensured three or more putts. I don't know that they purposefully got the greens that fast to impress the many Ryder Cup guests who were in town, but it's at least a possibility. The last time I played there, the greens were running closer to 11.5-12 to my recollection.
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It has been a very long time since I played very fast greens. I think the fastest I have seen were at Brora maybe 10 years ago. They were extremely firm with little growth. I couldn't guess at a speed, but if it is true that some of these links roll at 10ish, then I would say 12+. In any case, they were too fast.
Ciao
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To echo Tony, Kinloch in June, and even faster in September. Throughout the year, on average, as fast as there are, within reason.
Lester
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It has been said, but Sand Hills in late July were the fastest set of greens I have played. They ran pure and the speed made placement of your approach shots very important.
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The craziest ones have tended to be not so much intentional. I'm thinking of courses a few days or weeks shy of shutting down for overseeding and they start to essentially scalp the greens and not water. I have played on a few such days and downhill putts essentially only stop by finding the hole or existing the green surface. I've always wondered what a Stimpmeter reading would be for that kind of situation.
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Cherry Downs in Pickering, Ontario
I found myself putting defensively the whole way around, which is not the most enjoyable experience.
TK
I'll second that. Those greens are far from flat as well.
They used to be faster before Clublink.
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J Chrisham reminds me the that fastest green I've ever putted was the downhill putt from the back of the 11th green at Crystal Downs. I hit the green in regulation and finished the hole by picking up.
My only real knock on the course is that green.
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The fastest greens that I've ever played were those at Brookside CC (Canton, OH) during the Ohio Am qualifier I played in May 2012. The weather leading up to the event was in the low 70s, no humidity and clear skies. The greens were frighteningly quick and rock hard. They were rolling true, but beware if you found yourself above the hole.
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I've certainly played on a number of courses with very quick greens. The two that stick out in my mind, where the greens were almost uncomfortably fast, are The Hideout GC in Naples, FL and Oyster Harbors Club in Osterville, MA.
I played The Hideout at the peak of season with good weather and I played Oyster Harbors in the middle of October with good weather.
- Andy
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The greens at The Olde Farm when I played a couple Octobers ago with Bart Bradley, Mike Hendren and Roger Wolfe were probably the fastest I've ever putted, in competition or otherwise. I looked like an absolute idiot MULTIPLE times that day on the greens, but it was a whole lot of fun.
RTJ GC and Shelter Harbor GC are in a tie for second in my recollection.
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It's hard for me to recall really fast greens from regular play because the three fastest greens I've played were in tournaments. From "slowest" to fastest.
3. Bandon Trails - 2007 Mid Am. The greens were very quick especially after the finish of the second round during the playoff to make match play. The second green was lightning putting down to the front-middle hole location. Thankfully I saw somebody chip down that way before my 40 footer or I might have putted it off the green.
2. Hyde Park Country Club - 2007 Mid Am Qualifier. Double-cut and rolled. Greens have a lot of slope and pins were on the edges of ridges and drop offs. I shot 71 with five three putts. I'd play the course many times over a 20 year period, but the greens were so fast I could never play enough break.
1. Carlton Woods - 2008 Carlton Woods Invitational. I don't know the Stimp reading but I'm guessing 13-14. I was playing with a member the first day. On the third, which is about 190 yard par 3 over water, the pin was in the front. The member and I both hit it on the back edge of the green. We had very similar lines but the member was about 5 feet further away. He putted off the green into the water. I was completely dumbfounded and figured I had no chance if the member did that. I managed to keep it on the green by about 6 inches. The fastest and truest greens I have ever played on. But, when you are unaccustomed to that speed it is really nerve wracking.
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The fastest greens I ever played were probably Sand Hills a few weeks ago, but I expected them with the heat and the anticipation of my first round out there.
The greens that totally shocked me was my one day at Old Waverly. They were probably nearly as fast, but totally unexpected. A member I played a few holes with told me they were running faster that Augusta during masters week. These had to be a true 12+ and I had never played a 10 or above before. They were magnificent.
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I played a men's guest day at Onwentsia probably 20 years ago (pretty sure it was prior to the work done by Renaissance). It had been a brutally hot, dry summer, and those dry conditions had extended into the fall. I could not make a ball mark on an approach shot, even with a lofted club's approach, and the greens had to be three or four feet faster than the normally very fast greens there. The three guys from my office who were in the group couldn't play dead. I don't believe any of them had more than one or two two putt holes for the day.
I found the challenge of the greens to be exhausting. I recall that my caddie was very good, and I think I made a couple based upon his reads, but putting from above the hole was almost impossible.
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Kinloch, but Lester designed them to roll that fast.
The Olde Farm can get really quick.
WW
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Sand Hills. Crazy fast. This, after a significant rain storm the previous evening.
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Dead Ones
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Dead Ones
Agreed.Several years ago,we re-grassed from bent to Champion on July 5th. We put no water on the greens for the entire preceding week.They were over the top fast for July 4th weekend.
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At Old Chatham in NC, they stimped the last day before conversion to Bermuda and it was 17. Presumably the outer limit for bent, permanently dormant
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Fastest bent greens I ever played was at Diamond Creek 3 or 4 years ago in the month of October with Roger Wolfe and Ed Oden. They were extremely lean (low fertility) and very firm...like putting on a pool table slick as glass!
Fastest Bermuda greens I ever played was at Columbia C.C. about 6 or 7 years ago. We were playing in a 4-person captain's choice fund raiser and they were nearly unputtable! Roger Wolfe was there too.
My two cents,
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Look at all the warriors gather round the bar and exchange stories about their fights with over-the-top green speeds. I wonder how many will champion a better maintenance expectation and the utter ridiculousness of green-speed envy while rolling up their shirt sleeve to proudly show their battle scars.
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More votes for Kinloch and Sand Hills. You've never seen a ball roll uphill better than putts at Kinloch when the greens are really fast. I'd say the fastest I ever saw them, they would have registered a Stimpmeter score of 15 feet.
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Look at all the warriors gather round the bar and exchange stories about their fights with over-the-top green speeds. I wonder how many will champion a better maintenance expectation and the utter ridiculousness of green-speed envy while rolling up their shirt sleeve to proudly show their battle scars.
Are you looking for stories about rounds on great courses that had greens that were too slow, because I have a couple of those ;)
I played both Ballyneal and Chambers Bay when they first opened and were rolling about 4 on the stimp. Took a long time for one to recover from its reputation of slow greens and one still is trying to recover. And both are truly great courses.
Too slow greens can have a negative affect too...
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At last year's Dixie Cup we played May River and those greens were really moving.
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I played in a tournament and watched the super measure the greens at 12-1/2. I thought they were slower than those at my club the week before.
The impact of speed depends so much on the slopes of the greens. Our greens are designed to be fast and are a bit boring at 10. If the greens got to 10 at my former club you had trouble keeping a putt on the surface for many regular pin positions.
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Deepdale takes the cake for me. Considering they get no play, they can really get them moving with no real concern for traffic on them.
I also just played Lawsonia links, it was surprising how lightning fast they were. I had never heard of them being so firm and fast. With greens this size, I was definitely putting defensively. Coming from continental Europe, it was a shock to the system.
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Deepdale takes the cake for me. Considering they get no play, they can really get them moving with no real concern for traffic on them.
I also just played Lawsonia links, it was surprising how lightning fast they were. I had never heard of them being so firm and fast. With greens this size, I was definitely putting defensively. Coming from continental Europe, it was a shock to the system.
Joey,
That's pretty interesting regarding Lawsonia's greens. The discussions 'round here are usually focused on whether or not they are too slow.
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MPCC Shore in February; they were the fastest greens I have ever putted on.
Kenny,
They're certainly very fast, but Tehama's were faster.
MPCC's two courses are spectacular and they're kept F&F.
I think they benefit from an unusual micro -climate and playing "culture".
Friends who are members of both tell me that MPCC's greens are close to Tehama, but, I never played greens as fast as Tehama's
And, I've played Sand Hills, Five Farms, Oakmont and other clubs mentioned and they don't come close to Tehama's.
I had uphill putts and degreened the first two holes.
Yikes, what a shock to your golfing system.
As to those whining about the cost to maintain those speeds, I believe that the unique micro-climate mitigates costs to maintain.
MPCC, Shore and Dunes, have to be two of the most enjoyable courses one could play.
Width combined with F&F and a little heavy air and breeze to boot.
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Patrick,
Personally I'm thinking Merion East and Stanwich were the fastest I have encountered.
I think this topic is a bit subjective as conditions can vary even on the most fined tuned courses. Depends on the day you are there.
Cheers,
Malcolm
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Saticoy CC during any winter. Santa Ana winds will take them up above the 14 mark.
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Personally I'm thinking Merion East and Stanwich were the fastest I have encountered.
Malcolm,
I've played them both and they don't come close
I think this topic is a bit subjective as conditions can vary even on the most fined tuned courses. Depends on the day you are there.
Not so.
I was warned that Tehama keeps their greens at very high speeds ALL the time.
Ditto MPCC Shore
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Played at Alpine a number of years and they were shockingly fast, especially for their slopes.
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I played in a tournament and watched the super measure the greens at 12-1/2. I thought they were slower than those at my club the week before.
The impact of speed depends so much on the slopes of the greens. Our greens are designed to be fast and are a bit boring at 10. If the greens got to 10 at my former club you had trouble keeping a putt on the surface for many regular pin positions.
I think this is a key point. Speed is one thing; speed with heavy contour is something else entirely.
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How many places have the actual speeds posted in the locker room?
I played East Lake a couple years ago and they had 12.8 on the stimpmeter posted up. I found this a bit strange and also didn't feel like the greens even touched 12.8
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Double Eagle GC in Columbus. Every time I play there the greens are really quick...13 or so if I had to guess.
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I played a men's guest day at Onwentsia probably 20 years ago (pretty sure it was prior to the work done by Renaissance). It had been a brutally hot, dry summer, and those dry conditions had extended into the fall. I could not make a ball mark on an approach shot, even with a lofted club's approach, and the greens had to be three or four feet faster than the normally very fast greens there. The three guys from my office who were in the group couldn't play dead. I don't believe any of them had more than one or two two putt holes for the day.
I found the challenge of the greens to be exhausting. I recall that my caddie was very good, and I think I made a couple based upon his reads, but putting from above the hole was almost impossible.
Mark,
I played in a US Junior qualifier at Onwentsia years ago and those were some of the fastest greens I have ever seen, still to this day. After 36 holes of competitive golf on those greens in 90* heat I was mentally fried.
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Chambers Bay on June 16th this year.
I can only assume the supers were trying to burn out the Poa from the Fescue greens as they were bone dry, very straw coloured and like lightening. A number of approach shots trickled off the greens into bunkers and a couple of the Par 3's could not be held, requiring an alternative bounce in from kickers (great fun).
I didn't have many downhill putts as the balls tended to find the lowest point, however putts were generally very slippery but playable.
Some of the fairways were similar, where strongly inclined areas could propel the ball at speed off the fairway into the waste areas.
I've no idea of the Stimpmeter reading.
Chambers Bay - please keep the set up that way for the US Open 2015.
The course would still be playable, but the players will have to put course management very high on the agenda to make sure they avoid the wrong parts of the fairway and are on the right side of the pin when putting.
The entertainment value of watching wayward balls bouncing off into waste areas would make for compulsive viewing. ;D
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Surely it's not a case of what green speeds can be achieved on one given day or for the period of a tournament, but what are consistently the fastest greens over a prolonged period of time, like a whole season or several seasons? As an aside, I can recall uphill putts that were downwind being faster than downhill putts that were into the wind! Crazy game sometimes. Still love it though.
All the best.
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No doubt- Sherwood CC. 13 on a normal day. It was totally unreal.
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I'm really surprised there is so little love for the sand belt greens. While a lot of people are mentioned the one time it was 100 degrees and there was a draught back in 67' and the greens were baked out as the fastest, I'm certain that this hard fast conditioning is normal in OZ. Incidentally, every year during the Masters when the comment on green speed the commentators always chime in about the fastest greens in the world being in the Sand Belt as well. Perhaps they are not the experts I guess.
Sand Hills was about 38 degrees on the two days I was there and sure the greens were fast, MPCC courses, sure also fast but not even close to Sand Belt courses. Go putt on the marble floor at your local bank, that's more like it ha ha...
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Northland CC downhill down grain.
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I agree with the Deepdale nomination. Between the pace and slopes, those greens are a serious test.
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I played a men's guest day at Onwentsia probably 20 years ago (pretty sure it was prior to the work done by Renaissance). It had been a brutally hot, dry summer, and those dry conditions had extended into the fall. I could not make a ball mark on an approach shot, even with a lofted club's approach, and the greens had to be three or four feet faster than the normally very fast greens there. The three guys from my office who were in the group couldn't play dead. I don't believe any of them had more than one or two two putt holes for the day.
I found the challenge of the greens to be exhausting. I recall that my caddie was very good, and I think I made a couple based upon his reads, but putting from above the hole was almost impossible.
Mark,
I played in a US Junior qualifier at Onwentsia years ago and those were some of the fastest greens I have ever seen, still to this day. After 36 holes of competitive golf on those greens in 90* heat I was mentally fried.
funny ... was it around 1992'ish? If so I was in that field, and immediately remembered putting it off one of the greens that day. I believe it was the first hole of my second 18, and I believe they actually mowed the greens again between rounds.
I had the same thought as you when I saw the original post. I wasn't sure if they were really *that* fast, or if my lack of experience at the time had framed my memory, but the were a shock to the system for sure.
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No doubt- Sherwood CC. 13 on a normal day. It was totally unreal.
While I certainly don't doubt that many on here have played some of the fastest greens anywhere, I think it's really hard for most club golfers to understand how crazy fast 13 is. I played in a state am qualifier at Pekin Country Club a couple years ago and they were a "legit" 13. I remember player after player dropping balls on the putting green and proceeding to putt a 10 foot attempt 50 feet and off the green.
Most people see it so rarely, that it's just a number until you feel it.
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No love for Winged Foot, either course?
Played there two years ago and watched a good friend who can really putt degreen himself four times. I forget the hole, a par three, where the caddy told him to just touch it, which he did. Watched the putt roll forever.
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I understand your thoughts on what the number is, being a professional, and playing on some of the larger stages in golf, I have seen what those numbers are and what it feels like. Day in and day out, Tour courses are prepped well in advance and are very careful until the event. I have played all the courses on this forum page, well most of them and yes Oakmont and Winged Foot and Onwentsia are all crazy, but Deepdale and Seminole and Augusta even are great. But until you saw Sherwood, on a Thursday in March, its beyond all those others. This is an open discussion about this and is very very subjective to each player, but I absolutely know what 13 feels like.
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I understand your thoughts on what the number is, being a professional, and playing on some of the larger stages in golf, I have seen what those numbers are and what it feels like. Day in and day out, Tour courses are prepped well in advance and are very careful until the event. I have played all the courses on this forum page, well most of them and yes Oakmont and Winged Foot and Onwentsia are all crazy, but Deepdale and Seminole and Augusta even are great. But until you saw Sherwood, on a Thursday in March, its beyond all those others. This is an open discussion about this and is very very subjective to each player, but I absolutely know what 13 feels like.
I apologize if my response came off in a way that contested your understanding of the number, it really wasn't meant to be. It was designed more as an affirmation that 13, IMO, is indeed unreal. My contention is most member players (not this group) have no idea what they are asking for when they want greens to roll 13.
My response was mostly because from reading this thread, I got the impression some think 13 "isn't that fast". I was trying to make a general statement building on your statement that 13 at Sherwood on a regular day is unreal.
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double post
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Pronghorn Fazio. They apologized to me because the greens were only stimping at 13.
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A greenspeed of 13, or any other greenspeed number for that matter, is of course, an average taken from two opposing directions. 13 averaged on the flat is going to produce a much higher number when you're putting downhill on that same surface, yet it's the speed-of-light downhill putts that stick in the memory. As an aside, I've putted on greens that were like glass downhill, real hit it with your shadow style, but uphill on the same green, jeez you had to absolutely wack the ball to get it up to holeside.
All the best.
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Ok, just tossing this out to the brethern. Does really fast equal really good? Is the game better when you wrap your putter in cotton?
Personally I find defensive putting offensive. Standing over a downhill ten footer at Merion recently I was wondering if I should have brought the wedge over with me. Making it was out of the question, keeping it on the green was the primary objective.
Are we better off at these speeds or just crazy, well moronic, sorry.
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Ed,
Thanks for being only the second guy in 75 posts to stop the insanity. This thread backs up the theory that many on GCA.com talk good game, but end up being just like all the other average joe golfers. They want their stump...er Stimp to be bigger than the other guys'.
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Ed,
Thanks for being only the second guy in 75 posts to stop the insanity. This thread backs up the theory that many on GCA.com talk good game, but end up being just like all the other average joe golfers. They want their stump...er Stimp to be bigger than the other guys'.
I disagree with this being insanity. Okay, maybe a high Stimp rating isn't the end-all be-all, but fast greens are not per se bad. I'd much rather play quick greens than extremely slow. If that makes me a bad person, so be it. I make no apologies for liking fast greens. But, I definitely don't care about any particular Stimp rating.
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Ed,
Thanks for being only the second guy in 75 posts to stop the insanity. This thread backs up the theory that many on GCA.com talk good game, but end up being just like all the other average joe golfers. They want their stump...er Stimp to be bigger than the other guys'.
I think the goal of this thread was to identify the fastest greens and many of the posters have done just that in their realm of experience. If anything people seem to think that the examples they are referencing were scary/over the top. I am missing the insanity reference as to those members that have weighed in.
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When looking at the UK based Finegolf website I came across a device called the 'Greenstester', a different approach to the Stimpmeter, focusing on trueness of roll rather than speed.
Here's the weblink - http://www.finegolf.co.uk/what-is-fine-golf/value-in-finegolf/the-greenstester/
Anyone have experience of it or anything similar?
All the best.
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I also just played Lawsonia links, it was surprising how lightning fast they were. I had never heard of them being so firm and fast. With greens this size, I was definitely putting defensively. Coming from continental Europe, it was a shock to the system.
Wow - that makes me want to get up there this fall even more than I already wanted to. Those greens are so good but all three times I've played the course I have always wanted them to be a little bit faster to make the undulations really stand out.
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Greens are always the fastest (quickest) just before they die.
Do you remember who said that, Ian?
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Ed,
Thanks for being only the second guy in 75 posts to stop the insanity. This thread backs up the theory that many on GCA.com talk good game, but end up being just like all the other average joe golfers. They want their stump...er Stimp to be bigger than the other guys'.
I think the goal of this thread was to identify the fastest greens and many of the posters have done just that in their realm of experience. If anything people seem to think that the examples they are referencing were scary/over the top. I am missing the insanity reference as to those members that have weighed in.
That's certainly how I read the thread. It would be like asking "What course has the longest primary rough?" Answering that question doesn't mean you think long rough is the greatest thing in the world.
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Fastest greens I ever played were at Plainfield and at Winged Foot, granted this was about 6 years ago, so I have no idea how they are rolling in 2013 but, all I remember is putting and starting to laugh a few seconds later.
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MPCC Shore in February; they were the fastest greens I have ever putted on.
Kenny,
After giving it more thought, I'd agree with you.
I think the micro climate at MPCC lends itself to maintaining the greens at high speeds at all times, whereas other courses have to be more conscious of the weather in order to achieve fast and firm, whereas MPCC can do it on a consistent daily basis.
P.S. the Dunes course's greens aren't much slower.
Both courses promote fast and firm conditions with ideal playing surface.
Interestingly, both courses have different grass.
On is Bent, the other Rye.
They have to form the best 36 hole complex of any course in the U.S.
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MPCC Shore in February; they were the fastest greens I have ever putted on.
Kenny,
After giving it more thought, I'd agree with you.
I think the micro climate at MPCC lends itself to maintaining the greens at high speeds at all times, whereas other courses have to be more conscious of the weather in order to achieve fast and firm, whereas MPCC can do it on a consistent daily basis.
P.S. the Dunes course's greens aren't much slower.
Both courses promote fast and firm conditions with ideal playing surface.
Interestingly, both courses have different grass.
On is Bent, the other Rye.
They have to form the best 36 hole complex of any course in the U.S.
Better than Winged Foot ,Oakland Hills, Olympia Fields,and Baltusrol ?
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JCrisham,
ABSOLUTELY
They are sensational and each has a distinct personality
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JCrisham,
ABSOLUTELY
They are sensational and each has a distinct personality
I've always considered MPCC the club I would join if I lived in PB-on the west coast I enjoy it more than LACC or Riv. The 36 hole clubs I listed are clubs that have extremely strong second courses that are often overshadowed. The Shore and Dunes are a toss up in my book- hard to pick which is better. The only questionable hole on the Shore is 18- as they say it is what it is. Tough piece of property to fashion the finisher on. You surprised me- I assumed wrongly that WF would be your top 36 hole club!
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I played Oakmont in November and the greens were ridiculous. Wonder what they are like for the member guest?
Can anyone compare them with Augusta?
I'm sure any super can ramp up the speed for an event and we'd be very impressed. My 9 hole courses greens are fantastic and super fast - niot sure of a number right now - this is right after the club championship. Not sure I want them that fast day to day.
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Pat,
I have only played MPCC shore and dunes 1x each both in Feb of this yr. I am used to fast greens, I belong to a club that consistently keeps our greens at 11-13 during spring and fall. I have seen the super measure them and they are posted. The Dunes had fast greens, what I was "used" to, the Shore were a notch above that. They were absolute lighting.
I would rather have fast greens any day of the week. It makes the architecture shine an increases the thought and challenge on every shot approaching and around the greens. Same as why I like fast and firm fairways. I suppose greens can get to fast but I have rarely seen it. An example I can give is East Lake, when they replaced their greens and were able to firm and increase the speed it improved the quality of the course 10 fold.
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JCrisham,
ABSOLUTELY
They are sensational and each has a distinct personality
I've always considered MPCC the club I would join if I lived in PB-on the west coast I enjoy it more than LACC or Riv. The 36 hole clubs I listed are clubs that have extremely strong second courses that are often overshadowed. The Shore and Dunes are a toss up in my book- hard to pick which is better. The only questionable hole on the Shore is 18- as they say it is what it is. Tough piece of property to fashion the finisher on. You surprised me- I assumed wrongly that WF would be your top 36 hole club!
By what criteria ?
Difficulty ?
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I played Oakmont in November and the greens were ridiculous. Wonder what they are like for the member guest?
I bet they're even faster in January when they're covered in ice
Can anyone compare them with Augusta?
I can, and MPCC's are faster.
The problem is you morons are trying to compare the greens on courses that are prepared for PGA Tour players versus every day play
I'm sure any super can ramp up the speed for an event and we'd be very impressed. My 9 hole courses greens are fantastic and super fast - niot sure of a number right now - this is right after the club championship. Not sure I want them that fast day to day.
It's not just that they're fast, they're also firm.
And that combination effects your approach and recovery shots
And, working backwards, you tee shots
Like Oakmont and other courses that keep their greens fast, I think the members adapt to it.
The member we played with had an uncanny ability to read the greens at the proper pace.
I loved hitting bunker shots to those greens because you didn't have to muscle the ball, just hit it to the proper spot and let it feed to the hole.
And, since the fairways are so tight, the rescue/3-wood from 10 to 50 yards off the green was fun.
Neil Regan would be on cloud nine.
And then there's the heavy breeze off the ocean and the fog to contend with
I had always heard great things about MPCC, but my experience has exceeded my expectations
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Ed,
Thanks for being only the second guy in 75 posts to stop the insanity. This thread backs up the theory that many on GCA.com talk good game, but end up being just like all the other average joe golfers. They want their stump...er Stimp to be bigger than the other guys'.
Because someone named a few courses with really fast greens means they want every course to have really fast greens??? No. I like my greens to be smooth and roll true. Medium or fast is fine. Even slow like Scotland is fine as long as they roll true.
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Pat, have you ever played Grandfather G&CC?
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Even more insane than the nonsense this thread has become is the way that people posting on attempt to deny that it is, really, a thread glorifying insane green speeds. People may say that the greens were "scary" or "over the top" (actually, very few have even hidden behind that) but, in all of those cases it's clear that that their "scary" or "over the top" is rather like Spinal Tap taking the volume to 11. It's seen as a good thing. As if putting on greens stimping at 13 is some sort of test of manhood. If the denizens of a site like this are so beholden to stupid green speeds, what hope fior the rest of the golfing population? Really rather depressing.
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Even more insane than the nonsense this thread has become is the way that people posting on attempt to deny that it is, really, a thread glorifying insane green speeds. People may say that the greens were "scary" or "over the top" (actually, very few have even hidden behind that) but, in all of those cases it's clear that that their "scary" or "over the top" is rather like Spinal Tap taking the volume to 11. It's seen as a good thing. As if putting on greens stimping at 13 is some sort of test of manhood. If the denizens of a site like this are so beholden to stupid green speeds, what hope fior the rest of the golfing population? Really rather depressing.
Is this any thread any different than a most difficult course you have played thread? Isn't is possible that this thread can be read two ways like that one is? For some for sure it is a badge of honor, and for some it give them the opportunity to stand on their soapbox and lament all that is not pure in the game.
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Speaking of stupid green speeds given the architecture I have a story from a few years back that always stuck with me.
I was playing in a 3-day team tournament at Blue Ridge Country Club in Harrisburg, PA. The course was known for fast greens and they mostly sloped pretty hard back to front. As one member summed up the course, hit it straight and keep it below the hole and then do it again and again. So, the day that the tournament was a two-man scramble my partner and I were teamed up with two Blue Ridge members and we were on the 8th hole. They hit their approaches and one ended up just past the hole, maybe 15 feet away and the other was short of the left front bunker in the rough. The members chose the ball in the rough and tried to get up and down. Talking to them afterwards they said that they knew they were off the green if they missed the putt and thought they could stop the chip in a better place. Interestingly they felt that this was something to be proud of.
Even though I tend to putt faster greens better than slower ones, I never understood green speed fetish, especially when the architecture is not consistent with the maintenance practices.
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Even more insane than the nonsense this thread has become is the way that people posting on attempt to deny that it is, really, a thread glorifying insane green speeds. People may say that the greens were "scary" or "over the top" (actually, very few have even hidden behind that) but, in all of those cases it's clear that that their "scary" or "over the top" is rather like Spinal Tap taking the volume to 11. It's seen as a good thing. As if putting on greens stimping at 13 is some sort of test of manhood. If the denizens of a site like this are so beholden to stupid green speeds, what hope fior the rest of the golfing population? Really rather depressing.
Is this any thread any different than a most difficult course you have played thread?
No, it isn't. Doesn't make it any better, though. Isn't is possible that this thread can be read two ways like that one is?
Only if you are being particularly generous to the participants. For some for sure it is a badge of honor, and for some it give them the opportunity to stand on their soapbox and lament all that is not pure in the game.
And for a particularly confused majority, it's both.
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Even more insane than the nonsense this thread has become is the way that people posting on attempt to deny that it is, really, a thread glorifying insane green speeds. People may say that the greens were "scary" or "over the top" (actually, very few have even hidden behind that) but, in all of those cases it's clear that that their "scary" or "over the top" is rather like Spinal Tap taking the volume to 11. It's seen as a good thing. As if putting on greens stimping at 13 is some sort of test of manhood. If the denizens of a site like this are so beholden to stupid green speeds, what hope fior the rest of the golfing population? Really rather depressing.
Is this any thread any different than a most difficult course you have played thread?
No, it isn't. Doesn't make it any better, though. Isn't is possible that this thread can be read two ways like that one is?
Only if you are being particularly generous to the participants. For some for sure it is a badge of honor, and for some it give them the opportunity to stand on their soapbox and lament all that is not pure in the game.
And for a particularly confused majority, it's both.
I keep seeing words like shocking that describe the green speed. I read about people putting off greens. Not sure how one couldn't see these descriptions as possibly a negative in some peoples minds.
As far as the hardest course threads, I know when I see someone describe a course as over the top hard, I see that as a negative.
People that like greens that are fast aren't "right". But they aren't "wrong" either.
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Some people here have an aversion to speedy greens?
I think the main concern shouldn't be about the speed necessarily. The concern should be when interesting undulatiing greens and fairways are dumbed down to make the maintenance and playability of the greens easier using the stimpmeter as an argument.
Links fairways and greens in Scotland can also get very fast in high summer when the grass stops growing, (see Muirfield). It makes for some really interesting golf. The rest of the year the speeds will drop as the greens can't be cut low enough due to the undulations.
So for me there is nothing wrong with high speeds now and then, as long as the greens and fairways remain undulating.
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I have told every superintendent I have ever worked with that SMOOTH was much more important that FAST. I have seen so many guys get caught up in the speed discussion that they harm the course, their reputation and their patrons by trying to win the speed contest.
When certain members of certain clubs carry Stimpmeters in their golf bags to "compare" their greens to others in the community, it brings unnecessary burden on the maintenance operation to "measure up".
Let the supers do their jobs and provide the best (smooth, healthy, consistent) conditions their course can handle (taking green slopes, size and design characteristics into mind) and stop the madness of members helping by keeping track of what others are doing.
Lester
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Well said Lester.
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For you supers out there, at what speed would you prefer to keep your greens?
For you golfers out there, at what speed would you prefer your greens to roll?
I always thought that on thoughtfully designed greens, 9-10 should be spot on.
Ciao
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I think green speeds of 11 are ideal for everyday play through the summer at the courses I manage(factoring slope, pin locations, pace of play, turf health, and all of the other factors). It is not to hard to get them going 12 to 13 in spring and fall with little effort and some kindness from mother nature, but probably isn't completely necessary. I am finding out more this year that climate and weather play a huge factor in conditioning, sometimes much more than our maintenance practices. We have had a very wet summer in our region, which in turn made us work our greens a little more this season to try and achieve our target. But a lot of times, we were still coming up short of the target due to excessive moisture. Not to metion when you are out there double cutting and rolling on wet greens, it takes a toll on the turf, and if not carefull you can start losing grass pretty quickly.
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For you supers out there, at what speed would you prefer to keep your greens?
For you golfers out there, at what speed would you prefer your greens to roll?
I always thought that on thoughtfully designed greens, 9-10 should be spot on.
Ciao
We try to keep ours between 10 and 11, occasionally speeding them to 12 which is about as far we go. Typically if we err it is on the slow side as the greens will sometimes run in the 9 to 9.5 range which to be honest is too slow for the greens we have. For me 11 is perfect, keeps you attention but nothing silly.
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Lester said it best "Fast does not equal good" Having worked on grounds crews I can tell you 10ish is more than fine. Having said that, I have played Oakmont in a charity outing when the caddies were laughing because on this windy day the speeds were much faster than the US Open and it was not fun at all getting beat up by already devious greens.
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I have told every superintendent I have ever worked with that SMOOTH was much more important that FAST. I have seen so many guys get caught up in the speed discussion that they harm the course, their reputation and their patrons by trying to win the speed contest.
When certain members of certain clubs carry Stimpmeters in their golf bags to "compare" their greens to others in the community, it brings unnecessary burden on the maintenance operation to "measure up".
Let the supers do their jobs and provide the best (smooth, healthy, consistent) conditions their course can handle (taking green slopes, size and design characteristics into mind) and stop the madness of members helping by keeping track of what others are doing.
Lester
I could not agree more... However, you must acknowledge that when you get greens that are smooth, they must also be a little firm... This combination alone makes them faster.
I call perfection, in order of importance, as Smooth, Firm & 12 stimp.
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[size=10pt
For you supers out there, at what speed would you prefer to keep your greens?
For you golfers out there, at what speed would you prefer your greens to roll?
I always thought that on thoughtfully designed greens, 9-10 should be spot on.
Sean,
So much depends upon the configuration of the greens.
How much slope ?
How much contour ?
What size ?
What weather environment ?
The extremely fast greens at MPCC were appropriate in the context of the above.
Ciao
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Pat, have you ever played Grandfather G&CC?
NO
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I think it's safe to say that slower green speeds are a condition of the past.
I've generally opposed flattening greens to accomodate higher green speeds.
I think compromising contour and/or slope in the name of faster stimps is an architectural mistake.
The putting surfaces at MPCC aren't severe, either in contour or slope, although, there are a few with dual tiers with significant elevation changes, but, those tiers are more about one's approach than one's putting.
MPCC's greens enjoy a unique micro-climate, one where moisture in the air, is beneficial.
Some call if fog.
It comes and goes.
In addition, MPCC and the courses in that area aren't affected by weather anomalies.
They don't tend to get 90 degree days and as such, I think they can "dial in" the conditions the membership desires.
Putting on them was a culture shock to me, but, I adjusted and after playing them for a few days, putted rather well, although, those cups have to have the sharpest edges I've ever seen.
Even in a similar micro-climate, configuration of the greens can make an enormous difference.
Anyone who's played Baltusrol Upper and Lower can attest to that.
If both courses stimped at the same speed, the Upper would be far more difficult to putt, due to contour and slope.
So, speed is not a universal or general condition, but, one confined to the club and it's particular greens, climate, etc., etc..
MPCC was simply spectacular and FUN to play.