Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture Discussion Group => Topic started by: Tom_Doak on August 15, 2013, 01:00:00 PM
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My intern Riley and I stopped at Yale yesterday evening on the way home, and they were nice enough to let us play 11 holes before dark. In fact Colin Sheehan caught up with us by the third green.
I had not been back there for about 15 years and while I remember the course pretty well, I was astounded by the scale of it on a re-visit. We think we are building dramatic stuff from time to time, but I haven't seen anything as big and bold as Yale since, well, probably since the last time I played at Yale. Out of the 11 holes we played, there is nobody today who would have the balls to build 7 of those holes:
You wouldn't build the carry off the first tee
You wouldn't build a bunker as deep as to the left of the second
You wouldn't build a blind shot over the ridge like the third
You wouldn't build a green with the pronounced bank of the eighth (or the bunkers at each side)
You wouldn't build an all-carry 200-yard Biarritz over water like the ninth
You wouldn't build either the tee shot OR the second shot at the tenth, and
You wouldn't even think of building the eighteenth
I can't think of another course you could say that about.
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Well put Tom. Yale sets the bar when I think of bold features at a golf course....and most courses can't come close.
The only two I can even think about making any sort of comparison are Eastward Ho! and Boston GC. (still dont surpass)
Mark
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Tom, couldn't agree more. Yale is one of my favorite courses and is one of the reasons I now prefer quirky courses over the modern homogenized tracks. I've played twice (shout out to my host who shall go unnamed) and both times I was severely thrashed by nine and ten. I call ten "the Fortress" (in my mind similar to #2 at PV but with a blind tee shot) as the defensive position would be almost unassailable. But that doesn't mean I wouldn't jump at chance to take a go at those two again. fun stuff.
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Playing Yale is like when Happy Gilmore walks into the batting cages to stand in front of pitches.
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Absolutely agree. I first played Yale in the late 90's when maintenance was a huge issue. After my first round there, I remember thinking it was such a shame that what was clearly a unique and spectacular layout had become almost a joke because of the conditions. I have a friend who coached soccer there, and I'd go back a few times a year. In the 2000s, it slowly started improving as they figured out their labor issues and the new greenskeeper brought some professionalism to the place. I haven't played as many courses as lots of folks on here, but in its current configuration Yale is in my top 5 in New England, just a fraction behind Kittansett, Newport and The Country Club. And I think someone could make the case that it's better than all three of those.
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A ginormous photo album of Yale from a fall visit a few years back is here:
http://xchem.villanova.edu/~bausch/images/albums/Yale/
Edit: I happen to like the album below much more, based mostly on a visit from April 2012:
http://xchem.villanova.edu/~bausch/images/albums/Yale2/
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I wanna be your intern. That young man is very lucky to have seen (with you) what he has seen in the last few days.
TS
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I played Yale for the first time in June. I was completely blown away by (among other things) the scale of the course. I can't recall having so much fun while getting beat up by a golf course. #2 and #8 were my favorite holes, as they stood out among a tremendous set of par 4s. I could spend hours on/around #8 green. Yale is an absolute must see for any gca enthusiast. I hope to make it back there soon.
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The only CBM I've had the good fortune of playing is Mid Ocean, and it made a significant impression on me. I knew it would be great, but my expectations were wildly exceeded.
Noticing that NGLA and Piping Rock were done almost 15 years earlier than Yale, and Chicago almost 30 years, are there discernible details that show a evolution in style with more Raynor/Banks influence?
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Tom, what score do you give Yale on the Doak scale?
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Have any changes been made to the par 5 16th in recent years? That''s the only hole on the course that I thought was boring/uninteresting.
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Jim,
I believe it was an 8 originally. Gotta get back out there having only seen the course in the mid 90's...
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My intern Riley and I stopped at Yale yesterday evening on the way home, and they were nice enough to let us play 11 holes before dark. In fact Colin Sheehan caught up with us by the third green.
I had not been back there for about 15 years and while I remember the course pretty well, I was astounded by the scale of it on a re-visit. We think we are building dramatic stuff from time to time, but I haven't seen anything as big and bold as Yale since, well, probably since the last time I played at Yale. Out of the 11 holes we played, there is nobody today who would have the balls to build 7 of those holes:
You wouldn't build the carry off the first tee
You wouldn't build a bunker as deep as to the left of the second
You wouldn't build a blind shot over the ridge like the third
You wouldn't build a green with the pronounced bank of the eighth (or the bunkers at each side)
You wouldn't build an all-carry 200-yard Biarritz over water like the ninthYou wouldn't build either the tee shot OR the second shot at the tenth, and
You wouldn't even think of building the eighteenth
I can't think of another course you could say that about.
How long is C&C's at Streamsong?
Edit: 208... that Bil Coore is a madman!
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My intern Riley and I stopped at Yale yesterday evening on the way home, and they were nice enough to let us play 11 holes before dark. In fact Colin Sheehan caught up with us by the third green.
I had not been back there for about 15 years and while I remember the course pretty well, I was astounded by the scale of it on a re-visit. We think we are building dramatic stuff from time to time, but I haven't seen anything as big and bold as Yale since, well, probably since the last time I played at Yale. Out of the 11 holes we played, there is nobody today who would have the balls to build 7 of those holes:
You wouldn't build the carry off the first tee
You wouldn't build a bunker as deep as to the left of the second
You wouldn't build a blind shot over the ridge like the third
You wouldn't build a green with the pronounced bank of the eighth (or the bunkers at each side)
You wouldn't build an all-carry 200-yard Biarritz over water like the ninth
You wouldn't build either the tee shot OR the second shot at the tenth, and
You wouldn't even think of building the eighteenth
I can't think of another course you could say that about.
Just googled this one... DAMN!
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My intern Riley and I stopped at Yale yesterday evening on the way home, and they were nice enough to let us play 11 holes before dark. In fact Colin Sheehan caught up with us by the third green.
I had not been back there for about 15 years and while I remember the course pretty well, I was astounded by the scale of it on a re-visit. We think we are building dramatic stuff from time to time, but I haven't seen anything as big and bold as Yale since, well, probably since the last time I played at Yale. Out of the 11 holes we played, there is nobody today who would have the balls to build 7 of those holes:
You wouldn't build the carry off the first tee
You wouldn't build a bunker as deep as to the left of the second
You wouldn't build a blind shot over the ridge like the third
You wouldn't build a green with the pronounced bank of the eighth (or the bunkers at each side)
You wouldn't build an all-carry 200-yard Biarritz over water like the ninth
You wouldn't build either the tee shot OR the second shot at the tenth, and
You wouldn't even think of building the eighteenth
I can't think of another course you could say that about.
Just googled this one... DAMN!
Indeed.
Good photos in Ran's tour: http://www.golfclubatlas.com/courses-by-country/usa/yale-university-golf-course-ct-usa/ (http://www.golfclubatlas.com/courses-by-country/usa/yale-university-golf-course-ct-usa/)
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A ginormous photo album of Yale from a fall visit a few years back is here:
http://xchem.villanova.edu/~bausch/images/albums/Yale/
Joe: those are some top notch photos. I had been searching for decent ones online and those are the best by a distance. Cheers.
I'm in the process of culling that herd. Some are pretty good, others are crappy. I'll finish the cull, re-process, and re-compile at some point!
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How long is C&C's at Streamsong?
Edit: 208... that Bil Coore is a madman!
Greg:
The hole at Streamsong has a forward tee at not much more than 100 yards, and a large bailout area to the left.
Yale has none of that. I guess you could putt it along the dam if you couldn't make the carry. The head on my 5-wood had come loose on the trip down, and I didn't think I could get over the water with my 4-iron (and certainly not over the swale), so my only play on the hole was to hit the patented Grant Rogers "bunt driver". Best shot of the day!
But, you are right ... that Bill Coore is a madman!
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You think Yale is bold? Try it with hickories! It opened in the hickory era and must have been a total bear to play. Every time I play Yale with hickories, I shake my head.
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I was wondering about that, Mike.
If I got the chance to play it, would it be playable/fun with hickories?
EDIT...I'm decent with hickories. I shoot in the high 80s, the majority of the time. And can hit drives 200-215.
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I was wondering about that, Mike.
If I got the chance to play it, would it be playable/fun with hickories?
EDIT...I'm decent with hickories. I shoot in the high 80s, the majority of the time. And can hit drives 200-215.
Mac-First go play it with your regular clubs. You can always come back and play it with hickories if you want.
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What Scott Ramsey has done since 2003 is no less than startling. Yale is an absolute marvel and as Tom Doak described the boldness of the design is off the charts. All hail to Mac/Raynor!
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Mac,
Play it with hickories. Playing Golden Age courses with hickories makes the architecture jump out at you. Ground games options are revealed the modern clubs just fly over.
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Never heard Yale described as such. While I figured I'd play it *sometime*, just got to my top 5 must plays.
Something about big, bold carries (Tobacco Road comes to mind) that makes a course memorable to me.
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Tom Doak,
WHY wouldn't you build those holes/features, especially knowing how incredible they are ?
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After a long pause between plays (12 years) my reaction was different from Tom's. I was shocked how much equipment had reduced the functional scale of the course. Despite adding years in age, I had to move to the blues to have roughly the same distances into the greens that were presented by the whites of yesteryear.
The other thing I do, sometimes, is play persimmon. That makes the whites plenty hard for me and restores the blues to the bear they once were.
As for the aesthetic scale, that really IS bigger than it used to be, for reasons Tim notes.
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Sounds like an awesome visit! Riley is a good friend of mine and you have certainly shown him some great courses in the last week...he's a lucky boy!
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When in New England visiting Donald Ross courses in the late 1980s, in preparation for my book on the River Oaks Country Club in Houston, I asked for permission to play the Yale course, and was promptly invited. Within a couple of those daunting holes I realized I'd not seen anything like it. And when I was through playing the astonishing holes Tom Doak described, as well as the others with the rock outcroppings and the gigantic stone left in the fairway, I felt like I'd golfed on a course that was torn from the earth during the age of the dinosaurs. One of the most exhilarating and surprisingly inventive courses anywhere, Yale will keep you up nights, dreaming of the holes and reliving for years those unimaginable golfing experiences. Talk about a virtual liberal education!
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Tim, I couldn't agree with you more about all the great work Scott Ramsey and his staff have done to get the course to where it is (namely the tree removal project and drainage improvements). I feel the course plays better and better in my past four years at Yale.
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Tim, I couldn't agree with you more about all the great work Scott Ramsey and his staff have done to get the course to where it is (namely the tree removal project and drainage improvements). I feel the course plays better and better in my past four years at Yale.
Peter-Scott Ramsay is a rock star. It will continue to get better as time marches on. :)
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Cool aerial from an old thread:
http://course.bluegolf.com/bluegolf/course/course/yalegc/aerial.htm
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good timing here. playing next sunday.
would have liked to make it this sunday with y'all but i got parent/child sunday.
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and you didn't even fiinish. there was more to come. 18 is an absolute hoot
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Mark,
Sadly, we can say that about most classic courses, although all the rain this summer made many of them play long.
Tom,
If you need additional time or help in answering my question, just let me know ;D
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Tom Doak,
WHY wouldn't you build those holes/features, especially knowing how incredible they are ?
I was thinking the same thing. With your love for this wild stuff wouldn't you like to slip a little in here and there?
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Tom Doak,
WHY wouldn't you build those holes/features, especially knowing how incredible they are ?
One of the things that Colin Sheehan mentioned (somewhere in between his three birdies) was how the committee which oversaw the project wanted the course to be physically demanding and even emotionally demanding. The course would be deemed "unwalkable" by typical American golfers, even though we walked it just fine. And I mentioned to Riley a couple of times that I couldn't believe they let carts out on that terrain, because there is so much potential for accidents. The combination of those two factors is probably the main thing that would make clients ask their architect to tone things down on holes like #2 and #9 and #10 and #18, even if the architect was imaginative enough to come up with the hole in question.
Also, as I mentioned for #1 and #9, someone would insist today that there were more forward tee options on the water holes, especially on the opening tee shot ... which would rob it of some of its stark drama.
I do remember when we finally arrived at the solution for the 18th at Pacific Dunes [by moving the tee back and the green back], that I compared it to the 18th at Yale when trying to convince Mr. Keiser that such a long finishing hole was ok. However, if you think it's a round-killer now, you should have seen the original terrain! The carry on the second shot was MUCH more rugged that what you know today ... it was up and over a 20-foot ridge, that we pulled down so you can play around the back of it. That's the sort of change modern architects make, that C. B. Macdonald did not.
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Tom --
How fast were the greens running during your visit? I have had the good fortune to play Yale numerous times and have always lamented that the greens could be even better (is that possible?) at a quicker speed.
It's unfortunate that you didn't have time to see the other 7 holes, as I'd be particularly interested in whether revisiting some of the more blase holes (11, 14, 16) would have tempered your praise, your take on holes that have had notable work done (steeping the back of the Eden green; returning the Alps green-fronting bunker to a massive pit) and whether you still liked the Redan as much as in the Guide.
Best, Andrew
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I think one of the coolest things about the Yale course is how everyone is so overwhelmed by the HUGE scale, nobody ever notices how it tips out at just 6700 yards... While there is plenty of elevation to eat up any "shortcomings", when a golf course matches the scale of the property, the numbers on card dont seem to get noticed because the golf is so good.
Yale also has one of the best opening stretches. 1-4 are really among the best I've seen.
Greens #3 and 16 I believe are the only 2 that have been changed (I stand corrected, more have!). #3 was to close to the wetland between 3-4, I think there is a picture in The Evangelist of Golf that shows it was a blind double punchbowl!... extra bold... not sure what happened to #16, which is the weakest hole on the course.
Yale also had the highest construction budget recorded at the time it was build, tied with Lido at $500,000, due to all the rock blasting in the swamp! ... it can get a little soggy out there
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Tom --
How fast were the greens running during your visit? I have had the good fortune to play Yale numerous times and have always lamented that the greens could be even better (is that possible?) at a quicker speed.
It's unfortunate that you didn't have time to see the other 7 holes, as I'd be particularly interested in whether revisiting some of the more blase holes (11, 14, 16) would have tempered your praise, your take on holes that have had notable work done (steeping the back of the Eden green; returning the Alps green-fronting bunker to a massive pit) and whether you still liked the Redan as much as in the Guide.
Best, Andrew
What is it about the Knoll hole you dont like? I think its a great short-4, the ability to shape your tee shot can really gain you a ton of yards and the green has some of the best small contours on a MASSIVE course.
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Andrew, to each his own. In my opinion 11 used to be mundane but no longer is thanks to:
1) recapture of original green perimeter, and
2) equipment(!)
14 remains of great interest; 16 is mundane.
Jaeger, the 2nd, 3rd, 5th, 16th and 18th greens have been changed, some significantly some in relatively minor ways. AND very possibly the 9th: this Sunday we will discuss and debate the evidence.
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Tom, it looks like I missed you by a day.
I played Yale yesterday for the first time and it is almost an overwhelming experience. The scale of the property is almost without peer and as discussed here, the sheer audacity of some of the hole designs would never be considered if someone was building the course today.
The greens were great and rolling around 9 or so which is more than acceptable IMHO.
The fairways are in rough shape - heavy rains and then a subsequent heat wave burned out some of the grass but the playability is fine for the most part. I think they still need to cut a lot more trees, not for playability but to get needed morning sunlight and airflow on the turf. Playing at 8am yesterday gave me the chance to see all of the areas that weren't getting the morning sun and my playing partners indicate it's a work in progress. I had the good fortune of playing with the Reverend Bill Lee, I believe an 11-time club champ at Yale and highly decorated amateur player at the state and national level. What a character! A great thrill for me to learn about the nuances of the course from Bill.
Yale is an incredible golf course.
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Don't know if these pics have been seen on GCA.com but found them looking for photos of the original 3rd DP green.
https://webspace.yale.edu/Yale-golf-history/galleries/construction-gallery/Webpages/detail.np/detail-16.html
This older aerial shows a number of interesting features in original design: the huge (single) fronting bunker on #2, the single back bunker on #4 which looks to replicate the "road" much better than currently, the original front right bunkers on #6 & #7, topshot bunkers on #10, the huge single back bunker on Redan, two bunkers on the now bunkerless 14th, the original bunker configuration on #16, and a central fairway bunker on #18. Fascinating!
https://webspace.yale.edu/Yale-golf-history/galleries/construction-gallery/Webpages/originals/615.jpg
Enjoy if you haven't seen these pics!
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Andrew, to each his own. In my opinion 11 used to be mundane but no longer is thanks to:
1) recapture of original green perimeter, and
2) equipment(!)
14 remains of great interest; 16 is mundane.
Jaeger, the 2nd, 3rd, 5th, 16th and 18th greens have been changed, some significantly some in relatively minor ways. AND very possibly the 9th: this Sunday we will discuss and debate the evidence.
What Changed on #2, 5 and 18?
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George Bahto, white courtesy phone....
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LOVE going to Yale, and it gets more interesting every time I go. It is really like playing golf in a living museum. Not sure I would want to play it as my regular home club, but I am really enjoying playing the course a few times a year. Will be there in a few weeks, and back for an O C event mid October.
SPRINGDALE in Princeton, NJ, is my home course and the home course for the Princeton Univ men and women’s teams. It was re-designed by Flynn in 1927. It would be hard to imagine two courses more different other than they are both old:
SGC- 98 acres Yale: located in 750 acre preserve! (not sure actual course acreage- Estimate about 170 acres ??)
SGC – shortish course 6,400 yards, small greens, very compact, rolling with modest hills
Yale – 6,750 from the back, HUGE Greens, expansive terrain, hilly especially on the back nine.
SGC – located in downtown Princeton a small town, with PU undergrad, Grad and P U Theological Seminary buildings surrounding much of the course.
Yale – located in urban New Haven but the course is located in the woods outside of Town in a nature preserve, and there are no buildings around whatsoever.
SGC – originally laid out by Willie Dunn, Jr, additional nine added by Gerard Lambert and largely re-designed by William Flynn.
Yale – designed by Seth Raynor - who attended PRINCETON !! although I don’t think he actually played golf, so he is not affected by any experiences at Springdale (formerly known as the Princeton Golf Club.) Yale Coach Colin Sheehan and I have a fun time going back and forth about Raynor – he claims Raynor dropped out of Princeton and that does not reflect well on his Yale architecture.
I know the Princeton team is wary of Yale because of the huge home course advantage from knowing the course well.
Anyway, due to the scale, the authentic quirk, and the strength of the design, I love playing Yale, and it is really worth getting familiar with. Every round I play I am more fascinated by the course, and have generally played better each time as well. Managed to shoot a 78 last time, but not from the back tees. You really need be able to hit high bunker shots, long running chips, and truly blind tee shots without stressing out.
The only real criticism I have is that the back nine is hard to walk, especially if you have one of their trolleys which are heavy and only get oiled once every five years. Course conditioning has been decent last few years, although I know that have been an issue in the past. The range condition is not pretty.
I highly recommend Yale to anyone with an interest in Golf Course Architecture.
Wm Flynnfan
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Tom Dunne had already told me to include it on my last trip to the NYC area, will need to do for sure on my next NYC trip.....
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I can't think of another course you could say that about.
Looking at Joe Bausch's pics, if you combine the quirky holes of De Pan and Royal Hague you get a long way......
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Having been fortunate enough to spend 7 years as a member at Yale I must say the superlatives are many and manifold. And deserved.
Tom- It makes me wonder, if you havent been back in so long and then had what I take in your prose as a sense of wonder at what is still at Yale and what it took balls to design, what are we to make of the Confidential Guide where maybe a second visit or re-visit might jigger your rankings? Ah, the new Guide hopefully will rectify that..Also, the 17th tee shot took some cajones because the ridge one hits over now has been lowered by several feet from what was once there.. It was severely imposing if one looks at the construction photos.
Even with the 18th in its current configuration, it can kill a round, I've hit iron off the back tee and then hit 3 wood, 4 iron and made birdie and once bombed a driver from the member tee onto the ridge after the fairway and had shot to make it in two and made 8... The hole is epic for a reason..
Frank P.--There is only one real cousin/brother to Royal Hague in the US (from my estimation) and that is Eastward Ho!.. Yale is rollicking but does not have the folds/creases in the land you see at the Ho! or Hague in my opinion..
The real expert on Yale is Dr. Geoff Childs who advocated a return to glory for Yale that is moving minutely but in the right direction.. The threads are all in the annals of this website..
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Noel: literally, seven feet was taken off the hill fronting the 17th tee by the old super, many years ago. Too many players were banging balls into the hill, not clearing it.
3-green was moved more than one full green width to the left (blind, behind the hill) and for years many thought it was an Alps hole. Too many balls were hit into the pond when 3-green was first built. Remember this was a course built for students, faculty and such, not for a group of low handicappers. Many approaches were sliced into the pond. Also, the area where 3green "lived" was quite low.
Losing that great green was a travesty. It was one of Raynor's best green. Very few with this configuration were ever built. The most notable being the 6th at Creek.
Couple more issues:
16 green was originally in a low spot ....... I.e.: 30 yards shorter than today and a green-width to the left of where it is today. You can still see the remnants (dent impression) of the old green side bunkers. I showed this to David Patterson one rainy afternoon.
The Knoll hole has always puzzled me for a couple of reasons. Most Knoll holes were hardly ever over 325 yards as per original at Scotscraig in Scotland and the classic, 13 Piping Rock. Also they usually (I'll go out on a limb and say"always") had a single rear plateau. Since the original super really did a lot of free lancing on the course long ago. Perhaps, not understanding the design, I would suggest he may have cut off the plateau.
As is, that hole has absolutely no semblance to the Knoll hole concept.
I love that tee shot, even though it is out of character to the original concept.
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Tom Doak,
It's unfortunate that the legal climate in the U.S. has had such a dampening effect on dramatic, striking and/or quirky architecture and that the evolving culture in golf is resistant to layouts such as Yale.
It's also unfortunate that those who watch golf on TV never get to see the more dramatic, striking and/or quirky courses.
Seeing Yale, NGLA, Pacific Dunes, Sand Hills and many other courses might just cause a shift in that culture that would result in a clamoring for more dramatic, striking and/or quirky courses.
I was hoping that the telecasts featuring Sebonack and NGLA would have a positive influence on the quest for unique architecture, but, I think viewers are more interested in the golfers than the golf courses.
I'd be curious as to how your interpretive CBM design, Old Macdonald, been received by golfers visiting Bandon ?
Years ago, I was playing NGLA with a large group of golfers who had never seen it.
Many didn't understand it, and some flat out didn't like it.
When I asked "why" ? They said that they thought it was too radical.
That it presented shots that they were unfamiliar with.
My conclusion was that it took them out of their comfort zone.
They were used to bland, straight forward courses, without dramatic, striking and unique architecture..
My guess is that most golfers feel the same way, which is unfortunate.
Yet, there's a timelessness about Yale, NGLA and other classic courses.
Mike Keiser engaged you to create a modern day course with a foundation built on CBM's principles.
It would seem to me, that he would be a developer more apt to allow you to create a more dramatic, striking and unique course, containing features/holes, not disimilar to Yale's.
But, how many Mike Keiser's are there ?
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Has The Donald played Yale :)
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3-green was moved more than one full green width to the left (blind, behind the hill) and for years many thought it was an Alps hole. Too many balls were hit into the pond when 3-green was first built. Remember this was a course built for students, faculty and such, not for a group of low handicappers. Many approaches were sliced into the pond. Also, the area where 3green "lived" was quite low.
Losing that great green was a travesty. It was one of Raynor's best green. Very few with this configuration were ever built. The most notable being the 6th at Creek.
My first trip trek around Yale's course was about 25 years ago. I hit a tee shot on #3 to 'position A', then proceeded to hit an approach right over the center of the saddle, only to find out that the green wasn't where I thought it would be. ;)
Twelve years later I met George and found out that I was right . ;D
'Biggest' course I have ever seen.
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Many years ago, I played the Yale course on a regular basis, and it is still burned lovingly into my memory. But, when I played it a few years ago, for the first time in decades, I was struck by how many of the cross-bunkers had been eliminated. Was my memory of these being eliminated accurate? Does anyone know why? Dumbing it down for the massive public, non-University play they have? It still remained the course of my youth and one of my all time favorites, but I miss the cross-bunkering I remember.
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Tom Doak,
Forgetting about the legal aspects for the moment, if match play were the only form of play, what, if anything, would be different about your design philosophy and the courses you produce ?
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Many years ago, I played the Yale course on a regular basis, and it is still burned lovingly into my memory. But, when I played it a few years ago, for the first time in decades, I was struck by how many of the cross-bunkers had been eliminated. Was my memory of these being eliminated accurate? Does anyone know why? Dumbing it down for the massive public, non-University play they have? It still remained the course of my youth and one of my all time favorites, but I miss the cross-bunkering I remember.
Check out HistoricAerials.com Jim to see if it confirms your memories of the cross-bunkers. I just took a quick glance and with the years they have, I don't see them.
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Here is 1934 vs 2013 aerials. I only see the 18th cross bunker missing now and that was taken out a long long time ago:
http://golfcoursehistories.com/Yale.html
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Besides 18, 10 used to have cross bunkers.
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I can't think of another course you could say that about.
Looking at Joe Bausch's pics, if you combine the quirky holes of De Pan and Royal Hague you get a long way......
Frank,
You're right about the scale of Royal Hague being in the same bracket. I loved De Pan but it didn't strike me as quirky to anywhere near the same extent as Yale.
Another course that struck me as being on a grand scale in a similar way to Yale was Lawsonia Links.
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Jim Hoak: there a fairway bunker on 18.
On the 10th there were originally 2 bunkers built into the face of the hill on your tee-ball but was removes many many moons ago
A bunker way off left on the seventh and a bunker in the area between first and second fairways (in the rough)
That was the extent of the non green side bunkering on the course.
Raynor let the topography and his routing be his fairway strategy.
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Thanks, George. My memory is clouded--maybe from all the beer in College. Been many years too.
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George,
Why wouldn't or won't they restore the removed features ?
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George,
Why wouldn't or won't they restore the removed features ?
They did add back in the left fairway bunker on #1, and the cross bunker on #12 when Rulewich did his work. Take a look at Mark's aerial.
http://golfcoursehistories.com/Yale.html
The ones on #10 appear to be directional bunkers, and not really in play. The others seem to be out of play with the exception of #18. That terrain on 18 really does not need a bunker, IMO, but you can argue otherwise later today. I am sure the Yale Board REALLY values the opinion of South Bend graduates :)
That green on #3 actually looks like it IS in a similar position to the original. It looks like they made the lake smaller to fit in the cart path. I always thought they moved the green away from the water. Today, clearly #3 is not the best green on the course, but it is still one of the most unique holes in USA golf.
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Well put Tom. Yale sets the bar when I think of bold features at a golf course....and most courses can't come close.
The only two I can even think about making any sort of comparison are Eastward Ho! and Boston GC. (still dont surpass)
Mark
Very interesting -- I just played Eastward Ho! for the first time and the course I thought it most resembled was BCG.
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It has been incredibly fun to follow this post as I got ready to play the course today for the GCA outing. The descriptions on here did not disappoint. It was a pleasure to meet so many of the people who contribute so much to this board, and I certainly felt like I had googly eyes the entire round.
My playing partner Jon Stein asked me how I compared it to the Old White course at the Greenbrier. For me, Yale compared much more favorably. Sure, the golf course may not be in as good a shape, but in terms of boldness, it reminded me much more of Camargo. Yale was on a much bigger scale, unlike anything I've ever seen. The greens had more character than most I've seen all summer, ok'd by their slower, yet smooth speeds. As the course gets in better shape in the future, firm conditions will make Yale play particularly well.
It's places like this that remind me how much fun the game can be. As far as rounds on this trip go, along with the rounds at Dismal, Yale was as much fun as I've had all trip. I could play that golf course every day for the rest of my life and be happy.
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What is it about the Knoll hole you dont like? I think its a great short-4, the ability to shape your tee shot can really gain you a ton of yards and the green has some of the best small contours on a MASSIVE course.
Hi Jaeger -
It's not that I don't like the Knoll hole -- as you note, the tee shot is interesting and its more modest scale is palpable -- it's that I don't like it as much as many of the others. I don't recall the small contours on the green being noteworthy, but perhaps that's because so many others are all-world.
Cheers, Andrew
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Andrew, to each his own. In my opinion 11 used to be mundane but no longer is thanks to:
1) recapture of original green perimeter, and
2) equipment(!)
14 remains of great interest; 16 is mundane.
Jaeger, the 2nd, 3rd, 5th, 16th and 18th greens have been changed, some significantly some in relatively minor ways. AND very possibly the 9th: this Sunday we will discuss and debate the evidence.
Hi Mark -
I played the course during the ~2005-09 timeframe, so perhaps that predated the green recapture on 11?
Also, I'm interested in what you mean by equipment. I don't recall the hole being drive-able -- although perhaps for somebody who hits the ball tour distances?
Best, Andrew
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Andrew, I think 14 is the most underrated hole on the course. If you hit driver, you're often confronted with a sand or gap wedge from a fairly severe hanging lie. It's an awkward shot. Over the years I've made more pars either after mis-hit drives or by laying back with a 5-wood--the fairway is much flatter out by the 150 marker.
I guess the hole probably is drivable for the collegians, but they play a game with which I am not familiar.
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Courtesy of Professor Bausch
(http://i40.tinypic.com/wtyse9.jpg)
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I've only played Yale a too-small handful of times but would echo the expert Tom Dunne on 14's underratedness. The approach is one of the more interesting wedge shots with which I am familiar.
My favorite feature at Yale, though, is the 12th green. It challenging to conquer in a golf sense and could also be defended militarily. You could essentially put Leonidas' 300 Spartans on the green and they'd be able to defend it like Thermopylae. Just an amazing feature.
I would love to see Yale give a Raynor-/Macdonald-learnèd architect license to make the 16th green complex a bit less mundane, as its relative flatness sticks out somewhat. Same goes, I think (though to a lesser extent), for the 5th and 6th greens. But the golf course is so good--so unrelentingly fun--that if it was just preserved as-is the golf world would be a good and just one.
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One nice SUNY afternoon I spent the better part of three hours with the old super, jogging his memory about the many alterations he had done to the original course. He also gave me his notes on some not the things he did to "improve" the. Playability.
He had just gotten a dozer and went to work.
I'll post some of the things along the way but the moving of 3 green was hitherto most dramatic, to me.
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I've put together a new, smaller, and much better IMHO photo album of Yale based on pictures mostly from an April 2012 visit:
http://xchem.villanova.edu/~bausch/images/albums/Yale2/
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Jim Hoak: there a fairway bunker on 18.
On the 10th there were originally 2 bunkers built into the face of the hill on your tee-ball but was removes many many moons ago
A bunker way off left on the seventh and a bunker in the area between first and second fairways (in the rough)
That was the extent of the non green side bunkering on the course.
Raynor let the topography and his routing be his fairway strategy.
Plus that wonderfully craggy Principal's Nose on 17! ;D
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What would a full blown restoration of Yale cost? Let's pick a ridiculous number like $5mm. That's roughly how much interest the Yale endowment earned this past weekend while GCAers trod the fairways. This is purely a political football where elitist Yale alumns see golf as elitist IMNSHO. Same goes for a beefed up maintenance budget. One would think that places like Yale and Michigan would treasure these historic tracks and see them as a feather in their cap. Don't many of the wealthiest alumni play golf? Wouldn't a fund-raiser at the course for benefactors be a no-brainer? Political correctness run amok. At least Michigan had the good sense to begin a restoration, albeit a long-term plan, and that's probably only because the new AD is a golfer...
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What would a full blown restoration of Yale cost?
What would a full blown restoration of Yale cost?! I want to know what it would cost to build the second course originally planned! If approved, which firm would you want to see build it?
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What would a full blown restoration of Yale cost?
What would a full blown restoration of Yale cost?! I want to know what it would cost to build the second course originally planned! If approved, which firm would you want to see build it?
The land was apparently sold so the cause is lost. But it would be fitting for Brian Silva to do the work given his wonderful Raynor-esque course at Black Creek
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What would a full blown restoration of Yale cost?
What would a full blown restoration of Yale cost?! I want to know what it would cost to build the second course originally planned! If approved, which firm would you want to see build it?
The land was apparently sold so the cause is lost. But it would be fitting for Brian Silva to do the work given his wonderful Raynor-esque course at Black Creek
>:(
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What would a full blown restoration of Yale cost? Let's pick a ridiculous number like $5mm.
Why not pick a realistic number.
First, there's very little in the way of major work.
# 3 green and # 16 green (don't see it improving the course, hence would question the restoration))
Raising # 17 fronting bluff
Restore a few bunkers
Restore hump in # 2
What else needs to be done ?
Cost ?
250-500 K to 1 M
That's roughly how much interest the Yale endowment earned this past weekend while GCAers trod the fairways.
This is purely a political football where elitist Yale alumns see golf as elitist IMNSHO.
Same goes for a beefed up maintenance budget.
Maintenance budget is 1.7 M.
How much more would you like it beefed up ?
One would think that places like Yale and Michigan would treasure these historic tracks and see them as a feather in their cap. Don't many of the wealthiest alumni play golf? Wouldn't a fund-raiser at the course for benefactors be a no-brainer? Political correctness run amok. At least Michigan had the good sense to begin a restoration, albeit a long-term plan, and that's probably only because the new AD is a golfer...
Unfortunately, the golf course is the red headed step child.
You'd think that 30,000+ rounds a year would set off a light bulb with someone.
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My intern Riley and I stopped at Yale yesterday evening on the way home, and they were nice enough to let us play 11 holes before dark. In fact Colin Sheehan caught up with us by the third green.
I had not been back there for about 15 years and while I remember the course pretty well, I was astounded by the scale of it on a re-visit. We think we are building dramatic stuff from time to time, but I haven't seen anything as big and bold as Yale since, well, probably since the last time I played at Yale. Out of the 11 holes we played, there is nobody today who would have the balls to build 7 of those holes:
You wouldn't build the carry off the first tee
You wouldn't build a bunker as deep as to the left of the second
You wouldn't build a blind shot over the ridge like the third
You wouldn't build a green with the pronounced bank of the eighth (or the bunkers at each side)
You wouldn't build an all-carry 200-yard Biarritz over water like the ninth
You wouldn't build either the tee shot OR the second shot at the tenth, and
You wouldn't even think of building the eighteenth
And yet, when you put all of that together, Yale is fun to play.
How do you account for 30,000+ rounds on a golf course with such dramatic architecture ?
So, it seems like Yogi saying, "nobody goes there anymore, it's too crowded"
Obviously, there's great appeal to the individual features and holes and the collective of same.
How do you account for that when the course would seem to be the antithesis of the regular/retail golfer's tastes ?
It's counter intuitive isn't it.
I think that "score" has been a great impediment or inhibitor to having fun.
I can see someone, having the time, fun and game of their life, standing on the 18th tee, one up against an opponent far better than them, and losing the hole to a double bogey, and walking off the course beeming and joyful regarding the day/round that they just had.
I think a hole that produces a high number can sometimes doom a course's popularity amonst the card and pencil set.
But, in the environment of match play, how can you not have an absolute blast playing Yale.
And, the crazier, bolder the hole locations, the more fun you'll have.
So, what's the disconnect between the modern golfer and the genius in the design at Yale.
I'm puzzled.
I love the course and could play it every day for the rest of my life and, I'd go to bed ecstatic with anticipation of playing it tomorrow.
What about the dramatic architecture wouldn't appeal to the modern golfer ?
Conversely, are you stating that you have to dumb down your design in order to appeal to the modern day golfer ?
I can't think of another course you could say that about.
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$1.7mm maintenance budget? Don't they have a school of Landscape Architecture for fresh meat? ;)
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Does the school lose money on the course? i.e. do they net/net positive or negative?
If they lose money, or barely make any, they may not see the incentive to sink more capital into it.
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Does the school lose money on the course? i.e. do they net/net positive or negative?
If they lose money, or barely make any, they may not see the incentive to sink more capital into it.
Jim,
$ 1,700,000 divided by 30,000 equals $ 56.67 per round
If they charged an average of $ 57 per round, they'd be making money.
Anything above an average of $ 57 per round is incremental profit.
But, I wouldn't imagine that they're looking to the golf course to be a profit center, rather a convenience to students, faculty, alumni, members and guests of same.
What gets lost in the general number, and what's critical to conditions, is how it's divided up.
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That's 1.7 million only for the maintenence budget. There are numerous other costs involved, staffing the clubhouse and pro shop, administrative, security, taxes, and not least capital expense, you need to constantly be replacing worn out and obsolete equipment.
I know that Yale is a union shop and the greenkeeping crew do very well there, the highest paid greenkeepers I have ever met. Starting wages come to about $60k/year with overtime plus just about every benefit you can think of. [/pre]
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I may be nuts but for 1.7mm you ought to be able to eat sashimi off that turf...Gotta love those unions....
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The 6 days of cooler weather and the healing process has begun.... Beautiful day today:
(https://sphotos-a-lga.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/599266_10101182574907205_1147575391_n.jpg)
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I'm with Jud. $1.7mm seems RIDICULOUSLY high. :o
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I'm with Jud. $1.7mm seems RIDICULOUSLY high. :o
Great, the Midwest guys agree!
Reasons why Yale has a high maintenance cost:
1. Scott Ramsey measures the green in ACRES, not square feet! He has increased their size by probably 20+% in some cases to the point that there are now sprinkler heads ON MANY GREENS. The sprinkler system was put in later in life and Scott and Yale decided to take greens back closer to their original size. This cost money, but GCA.com goobers love it! I am told that Yale's greens are probably top 10 in the world in terms of size. No way to verify this.
2. The size of the property is massive. The only courses that compare on the EAST COAST are Bethpage, Shinnecock, Pine Valley, Fishers Island, National. None of those properties have the severity of Yale's property which creates lots of drainage issues, more to come on this.
3. Yale Golf Course is part of the Athletic Department. It is there for the benefit of the team, students, faculty and staff. Considering there are 11,000 employees at Yale, 30,000 rounds is less than I would have expected. The Athletic Department is roughly the same size in terms of student athletes (roughly 900) as Michigan State University. Yale has 5500 students versus 35,000 or so at MSU. There is never enough money in any Ivy League, Patriot League or NESCAC athletic department as these places run huge athletic departments without the benefit of TV money. See the data here:
http://ope.ed.gov/athletics/GetOneInstitutionData.aspx
ESPN only shows up for the Frozen Four and Lax playoffs:
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/08/25/sports/ncaafootball/college-footballs-most-dominant-player-its-espn.html
4. Assuming the above statement is true (I don't know), with salaries in the $60,000+ range for the greens staff, obviously the cost structure is high. 10 workers gets you to a third of the budget. As one of the larger employers in Connecticut, Yale can't do seasonal employees or immigrant workers without official paperwork. From 2004 interview:
https://webspace.yale.edu/Yale-golf-history/interviews/summaries/040907_Ramsay.htm
When he first arrived at Yale, the union staff had just gone on strike so Scott used coaches, administrators, and members to maintain the course for several weeks. Since then he has improved union management relations; after only one year he had a staff triple the size of that when he arrived. His staff consists of permanent full time, full time seasonal, and part time seasonal (dinning hall staff and students) employees, with 16-20 employed at the peak. With this staff and new equipment, the greens can be cut daily and the fairways groomed every 2-3 days before play begins.
5. Water - I don't understand all the issues, but Yale Golf Course has had a huge water problem to the extent that Scott has to negotiate directly with the State over restrictions in some years. It is my understanding that much of this work is under control. From a recent newsletter:
"Unfortunately most of the improvements are regulatory and " back of the house" expenses that must be done and aren't apparent (or enhance) your golf experience. We were required to install an equipment wash area this year and that has just become operational, a very expensive project. We also completed all of the necessary CT DEEP water diversion upgrades. Last year we completed the irrigation enhancements to improve our water use efficiency. Currently the cart path on 9 is on top of a water dam which the CT DEEP has asked Yale to inspect and perform some remedial repairs. Lots of activity and money spent."
6. Drainage - Before Scott, drainage was ignored. Simple things like pulling leaves out of the woods was not performed. 50-60 years of leaves piling up screws up the drainage. The course sits on clay and stone as opposed to sand 20+ miles south at Friars Head. Glaciers brought the wild terrain that is loved at Yale, but they also screw up drainage for a golf course. From the same newsletter:
The old axiom is, " moving water cools and standing water cooks." The biggest challenge in front of us is getting the water to move. More to follow.
Scott came out on a Sunday to speak to our group, his one day off. The guy is totally dedicated to the golf course, and sooner or later someone will wave a big check in front of him. I hope he stays through the next 10 years of transformation.
7. Community - I am told Yale University had bad community relations back in the 70's and 80's. Now the athletic facilities are open to many groups locally including a First Tee program and high school matches at the golf course. This all creates extra wear and tear on the course.
I am sure there are others, but Yale sitting in a urban environment that seems like a nature wilderness is unique to golf in many ways beyond the architecture.
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3. Yale Golf Course is part of the Athletic Department. It is there for the benefit of the team, students, faculty and staff. Considering there are 11,000 employees at Yale, 30,000 rounds is less than I would have expected. The Athletic Department is roughly the same size in terms of student athletes (roughly 900) as Michigan State University. Yale has 5500 students versus 35,000 or so at MSU. There is never enough money in any Ivy League, Patriot League or NESCAC athletic department as these places run huge athletic departments without the benefit of TV money. See the data here:
A few things you ought to know about the Michigan State University before you use it as a point of comparison:
1. The university has 2, 18 hole golf courses, along with a short-game facility the size of a full driving range (because it used to be one) with a half dozen greens and several bunkers, a double end driving range over 350 yards long and a massive practice green. Whatever the square acreage of the Yale golf course, I'm pretty sure MSU has it beat as far as maintained areas.
2. The golf courses are not operated as part of the athletic budget. The golf courses are maintained as part of the Landscape Services (read: grounds) department and the golf operations are a part of the self-sustaining and non-budgeted Spartan Hospitality Group that includes the university's hotels, alumni chapel, bakery and other hospitality related functions. Also, the size of the student body at Michigan State as compared to Yale is irrelevant because the Athletic Department is also self-sustaining, in fact, it gives ~$10mm to the university every year.
3. The total budget for the 2011-2012 academic year for the Landscape Services department was $3.24mm. In addition to the maintenance of the golf courses, the department website says:
"Landscape Services maintains all horticultural material and outdoor litter and debris control. The staff also maintains roads, bridges, walks, ornamental pools and outdoor furniture. The department works at construction sites to install or repair the landscape around those areas. It maintains informational and traffic signs on campus as well as repairing operation and service equipment used in grounds maintenance operations.
While it is possible the golf courses take up 55% of this budget, I doubt it.
As an aside, it has long been a source of contention at MSU that the school with the best turf grass department in the country has its grounds department running its golf courses; but government departments have never been ones to shed things once given.
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As an aside, it has long been a source of contention at MSU that the school with the best turf grass department in the country has its grounds department running its golf courses;
That sounds more than a little biased. There are some excellent turf schools in the U.S.
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They may be second class citizens in most disciplines, but one thing they know about in East Lansing is grass..
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As an aside, it has long been a source of contention at MSU that the school with the best turf grass department in the country has its grounds department running its golf courses;
That sounds more than a little biased. There are some excellent turf schools in the U.S.
I didn't say there weren't.
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They may be second class citizens in most disciplines, but one thing they know about in East Lansing is grass..
Two words: hash bash.
Learn your own history!
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We are getting pretty far OT, but as an MSU Alum, I hate that the golf courses are part of the hospitality group. Mainly because Akers West has been severely compromised due to the shuffling of the holes to accommodate the conference center. I much prefer the original layout.
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They may be second class citizens in most disciplines, but one thing they know about in East Lansing is grass..
Two words: hash bash.
Learn your own history!
My bad. It's all a bit hazy...
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We are getting pretty far OT, but as an MSU Alum, I hate that the golf courses are part of the hospitality group. Mainly because Akers West has been severely compromised due to the shuffling of the holes to accommodate the conference center. I much prefer the original layout.
Agree completely. Though the courses have never been particularly well managed.
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JC
Yale cost a bomb to build and that usually means it will cost a bomb to maintain. In any case, what does it matter? Its not like Yale is sucking the state's teat and the uni can afford it.
Ciao
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JC
Yale cost a bomb to build and that usually means it will cost a bomb to maintain. In any case, what does it matter? Its not like Yale is sucking the state's teat and the uni can afford it.
Ciao
Sean,
State universities aren't exactly getting much from that teat anymore, but that is irrelevant.
It doesn't really matter at all what their maintenance budget is, other than it speaks to the general sustainability of the game.
A course that wasn't subsidized by an endowment that could cover Michigan State's budget for the next 20 years, doing 30,000 rounds per year, would have to charge $60 for walkers just to make back the maintenance budget. Tack on whatever else to cover operations and carts, call it $15-20, would take that to $75-80 just to break even. We talk about how the cost of the game is a barrier to entry, perhaps large maintenance budgets should take some of the blame.
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So Tom,
Can we expect Yale to be a 10 next go around?
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We talk about how the cost of the game is a barrier to entry, perhaps large maintenance budgets should take some of the blame.
Ailing Memorial Golf Club in New Haven is $34 max for a non-resident for 18 holes. Does every course have to be affordable?
http://www.allingmemorialgolfclub.com/
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Affordable is relative.
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JC
Yale cost a bomb to build and that usually means it will cost a bomb to maintain. In any case, what does it matter? Its not like Yale is sucking the state's teat and the uni can afford it.
Ciao
Sean,
State universities aren't exactly getting much from that teat anymore, but that is irrelevant.
It doesn't really matter at all what their maintenance budget is, other than it speaks to the general sustainability of the game.
A course that wasn't subsidized by an endowment that could cover Michigan State's budget for the next 20 years, doing 30,000 rounds per year, would have to charge $60 for walkers just to make back the maintenance budget. Tack on whatever else to cover operations and carts, call it $15-20, would take that to $75-80 just to break even. We talk about how the cost of the game is a barrier to entry, perhaps large maintenance budgets should take some of the blame.
JC
I am all for affordable, sustainable golf, but so long as a course/club isn't in some form of government owned I am not bothered about large maintenance budgets. I think its unnecessary, but then so are huge pick up trucks...and so what? What difference does it make to Joe Bloggs what they do at Yale? Yale can worry about Yale problems.
Ciao
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Sean,
The issue to me isn't the cost of golf at Yale. The cost to play is very reasonable if you compare it to joining a club in the area, and as you say it's their choice, it's the apparent quality of the playing surface for the price. Yes they do double the rounds, but for 1.7mm I'd expect conditions very similar to the best private clubs in the area. If some of the best minds in academia can't figure out how to bust a union and get some scab students in there, or throw even more money at the problem, we may have to alert the ratings panel at US News & World Report...
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Jud
I spose I look at Yale as an exceptionally difficult course to maintain well and cheaply. Of course, there is a certain percentage of union wage wastage as well.
I belonged to Pennard so I know about ropey conditions. Being in your camp, I would have been very much against spending tons of money to make the course comparable condition-wise to Porthcawl. Its fine the way it is - there really isn't a middle ground. Much more water is needed to improve conditions, but then there has to be a way of retaining the water for more than 5 seconds! The site is so sandy and sloping toward the sea that an incredible amount of water would be wasted unless the course were overhauled to better suit watering needs. I guess I look at Yale that way except their 1.7 mil is their low end for that site whereas Pennard can get by as is on a fraction of 1.7 mil - its all relative. I could be wrong though, but man that site looks very extreme. All that said, I do agree that in general clubs spend too much money on maintenance. Even though I am a keen golfer, I would be all in favour of charging clubs excess fees for water over certain limits or if there is significant wastage/leakage. Private or no, clubs shouldn't be allowed to pour water away (unless they own the supply) regardless if they can afford it.
Ciao
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Yesterday I played Yale for the first time and OMG is right. The Course was fantastic as was the day. Why did I wait so long?
http://www.flickr.com/photos/golfcoursepix/sets/72157636605032736/with/10302615064/ (http://www.flickr.com/photos/golfcoursepix/sets/72157636605032736/with/10302615064/) =Full set of pix
(http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5501/10302787026_21e1770256_c.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/golfcoursepix/10302787026/)
Yale #1 from tee r (http://www.flickr.com/photos/golfcoursepix/10302787026/) by tewiespix (http://www.flickr.com/people/golfcoursepix/), on Flickr
(http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3807/10302694064_c7a24c697f_c.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/golfcoursepix/10302694064/)
Yale #2 pitch frpm left side of fairway red (http://www.flickr.com/photos/golfcoursepix/10302694064/) by tewiespix (http://www.flickr.com/people/golfcoursepix/), on Flickr
(http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2806/10302689134_17696b8aeb_c.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/golfcoursepix/10302689134/)
Yale #3 from tee r (http://www.flickr.com/photos/golfcoursepix/10302689134/) by tewiespix (http://www.flickr.com/people/golfcoursepix/), on Flickr
(http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3745/10302769856_a5cd67a477_c.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/golfcoursepix/10302769856/)
Yale #4 from tee r (http://www.flickr.com/photos/golfcoursepix/10302769856/) by tewiespix (http://www.flickr.com/people/golfcoursepix/), on Flickr
(http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5538/10302680874_9bb5e0a816_c.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/golfcoursepix/10302680874/)
Yale #5 'Short' par 3 from back tee r (http://www.flickr.com/photos/golfcoursepix/10302680874/) by tewiespix (http://www.flickr.com/people/golfcoursepix/), on Flickr
(http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2884/10302759606_d4975f83b8_c.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/golfcoursepix/10302759606/)
Yale #7 from front tee zoomed r (http://www.flickr.com/photos/golfcoursepix/10302759606/) by tewiespix (http://www.flickr.com/people/golfcoursepix/), on Flickr
(http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2845/10302753756_ce3305f508_c.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/golfcoursepix/10302753756/)
Yale #8 chip to green r (http://www.flickr.com/photos/golfcoursepix/10302753756/) by tewiespix (http://www.flickr.com/people/golfcoursepix/), on Flickr
(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7389/10302664394_6f74f70b63_c.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/golfcoursepix/10302664394/)
Yale #9 200+ yard par 3 r (http://www.flickr.com/photos/golfcoursepix/10302664394/) by tewiespix (http://www.flickr.com/people/golfcoursepix/), on Flickr
(http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5534/10302858303_8760817a8d_c.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/golfcoursepix/10302858303/)
Yale #10 view from credt of hill r (http://www.flickr.com/photos/golfcoursepix/10302858303/) by tewiespix (http://www.flickr.com/people/golfcoursepix/), on Flickr
(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7425/10302639044_d4bf92ac3c_c.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/golfcoursepix/10302639044/)
Yale #13 par 3 200 yard redan r (http://www.flickr.com/photos/golfcoursepix/10302639044/) by tewiespix (http://www.flickr.com/people/golfcoursepix/), on Flickr
(http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3707/10302708885_50de8b4ebb_c.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/golfcoursepix/10302708885/)
Yale #14 pitch to green r (http://www.flickr.com/photos/golfcoursepix/10302708885/) by tewiespix (http://www.flickr.com/people/golfcoursepix/), on Flickr
(http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2840/10302632944_58534063f8_c.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/golfcoursepix/10302632944/)
Yale #15 par 3 Eden r (http://www.flickr.com/photos/golfcoursepix/10302632944/) by tewiespix (http://www.flickr.com/people/golfcoursepix/), on Flickr
(http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3714/10302829523_39a411ddab_c.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/golfcoursepix/10302829523/)
Yale #17 from tee r (http://www.flickr.com/photos/golfcoursepix/10302829523/) by tewiespix (http://www.flickr.com/people/golfcoursepix/), on Flickr
(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7331/10302615064_fee60c9eac_c.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/golfcoursepix/10302615064/)
Yale #18 par 5 approach r ed (http://www.flickr.com/photos/golfcoursepix/10302615064/) by tewiespix (http://www.flickr.com/people/golfcoursepix/), on Flickr
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The Metropolitan Hickory Society held its final tournament of the year, "The Old School" at Yale on Tuesday. It was a full field two man best ball tourney. The day was picture perfect and the greens were humming.
What a wild ride Yale is with hickories! Everyone loved the course. It was like walking back in time playing such classic architecture with 1920's clubs and mesh reproduction balls.
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I noticed Illinois recently shot 33 under to win Yale's tournament by 25 shots. It really is amazing how good these collegiate golfers have become.
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I noticed Illinois recently shot 33 under to win Yale's tournament by 25 shots. It really is amazing how good these collegiate golfers have become.
A couple of years ago when Yale hosted the NCAA regional a freshman from the University of Texas named Cody Gribble shot 63 in the opening round. Although distance is not an issue the green speeds were close to the limit considering the amount of slope and contouring. Pretty darn solid for someone who just saw the course for the first time the week of the tournament. His dad told me that he had quite a bit of success on Golden Age courses as they were members of Tillinghast's Brook Hollow in Dallas.
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Those photos are amazingly good. And the day looked spectacular.
It's funny how seeing pictures of golf holes from long ago in your life brings back a rush of memories of so many extraneous things--kind of like a song does.
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Stewart,
Great photos.
# 10 has to be one of the great par 4's in golf.
It is incredibly unique, from tee to DZ to green.
And, it's incredibly challenging.
The architectural creativity is pure genius.
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Stewart,
Great photos.
# 10 has to be one of the great par 4's in golf.
It is incredibly unique, from tee to DZ to green.
And, it's incredibly challenging.
The architectural creativity is pure genius.
I agree 10 is unique, Pat... And that green is a beauty...
But No. 8 trumped it for me. Had a fondness for 14 as well... And 3... 17 too...
So many great holes
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Stewart, Great Pictures. I too had the privilege to play Yale a week ago. I just did not get the great day for photos you had as I had a weak Nor'Easter blanket the sky with grey clouds. Nonetheless, I was blown away having played the course for the first time.
Hole after hole, the course rarely gives you pause, as it's one great hole after another. I will agree with many here though that as unique and special as the the #10 Biarritz hole is, the preceding hole, #9 Cape has to be the showstopper. I'd like to hear GCA'er opine if there is Cape better than #9 at Yale anywhere. The peculiar angle of the tee shot, a semi-blind landing area, the actual two tier cape green with an abyss left and very formidable bunkers right. The hole plays with your head big time.
Of note also...
#11 Carries, where your second shot is targeted to something equivalent to a the roof of two to three story house is quite a memory for this Florida Golfer.
#14 Knoll. Fairways sloping downhill from right to left in golf are everywhere except Florida) However here at Yale, the unique green complex is set upon a knoll. It is one of the few small and demanding GIR to hit, especially with the predominant side hill fairway lies.
#18 Home, encapsulates the course. There is no let up of show stopping holes, around and over a mini mountain in three shots to hit a par five green. Crazy. Crazy Good Stuff.
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Tom,
Late to the game here and I can't go back to read every post so forgive me if this is repetitive.
I have always referred to Yale GC a an example of the MacDonald school of golf architecture on steroids.
Unfortunately, there are major issues with golf club maintenance at Yale. Those huge bunker facings and other steep banks are not mowable except by hand. Therefore they do bot get mowed. That is possibly a reason why similar features are not built today.
Yet, hat's off to Raynor for building this course. Probably his finest!
Malcolm
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Hole after hole, the course rarely gives you pause, as it's one great hole after another. I will agree with many here though that as unique and special as the the #10 Biarritz hole is, the preceding hole, #9 Cape has to be the showstopper. I'd like to hear GCA'er opine if there is Cape better than #9 at Yale anywhere. The peculiar angle of the tee shot, a semi-blind landing area, the actual two tier cape green with an abyss left and very formidable bunkers right. The hole plays with your head big time.
J.,
You mean #8 & #9.
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Unfortunately, there are major issues with golf club maintenance at Yale. Those huge bunker facings and other steep banks are not mowable except by hand. Therefore they do bot get mowed. That is possibly a reason why similar features are not built today.
Malcolm,
When was your last trip to New Haven:
(http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3807/10302694064_c7a24c697f_c.jpg)
Scott Ramsey is down to two issues in my mind.
1. A tiny bit of speed in the greens. I am told this Fall has killed a bunch of historical issues and that the greens are the best ever. Sadly I have not seen it in person since August when the summer was very tough.
2. Fairway consistency/drainage in a few spots. I would say the issues are 50% of what they were 5 years ago, but it is a BIG course and takes time.
Come to New Haven soon.
Mike Sweeney
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Tom,
Late to the game here and I can't go back to read every post so forgive me if this is repetitive.
I have always referred to Yale GC a an example of the MacDonald school of golf architecture on steroids.
Unfortunately, there are major issues with golf club maintenance at Yale. Those huge bunker facings and other steep banks are not mowable except by hand. Therefore they do bot get mowed. That is possibly a reason why similar features are not built today.
I'd disagree, NGLA, Fishers Island and almost every Charles Banks course have those same huge bunker facings and steep banks.
Yale's maintenance issue is budget related, not technique related.
As to being built today, I think it may be "Fairness" rather than maintenance that's the impediment
Yet, hat's off to Raynor for building this course. Probably his finest!
Fishers Island and NGLA are equally as impressive
Malcolm
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I played Yale again last week. The lighting was good at times and hence I've built another photo album choosing pictures from my 4 or 5 visits there now:
http://xchem.villanova.edu/~bausch/images/albums/yale3/
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Yale is definitely one of my favorite courses. Raynor's designs intrigue me, mainly because it's fascinating how he made such rigid geometrical features seem so naturally blended in the terrain. Beyond the design, the atmosphere is terrific, with the drive in going past the Tenth and Eighteenth, then curving around to get a glimpse of the First. Just a great example of distinct design that makes for a particularly enjoyable round.
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Wow.
For a course that has been WAAAAAAAAY over documented on GCA.com, there are some fabulous pictures on this thread. I forwarded them to the Big Guns at Yale.
;)
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How come Shi$ hasn't commented in this thread.. ???
MM
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Agreed with Sweeney. These are such good photos that I think we should commission Stewart to tour the top 20 courses, camera in hand. The pictures are outstanding on several levels.
By the way, what camera did you use?
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Mike,
Nice to see that Yale has stepped up the budget and is mowing the steep faces! My dad is a Yale alumna (1961) and always praised the course while bemoaning the lack of course maintenance. When I played it last many years ago the faces were hayfields.
Had an invitation to play there this week with a friend who is an Outpost Club member but had to decline as I was entertaining customers at my club in South Carolina, Musgrove Mill.
Like Mr. Doak I need to get back,
Mike and Tim, I will be in touch! Let me know if you are planning to be in Princeton so I can take you onto Springdale.
Patrick,
I have played at Yale and Fisher's many times and Yale seemed by far much more bulked up with deeper bunkers and extreme green contours. Sad to say that I have not seen NGLA as of yet, but have played Piping Rock many times which was pretty subdued in it's features, I may be incorrect but I attribute, based on my readings, the Creek, Yale and Fisher's more to Raynor.
Is NGLA similar to Yale in it's oversized features? I really enjoyed having the opportunity to see it on TV this summer with the Walker Cup
One of my favorites of this genre is the Charlie Banks set of nine holes at Montclair GC., almost as severe as Yale.
Malcolm
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Malcolm, The Knoll has some pretty severe features as well. If anyone hasn't been there yet, its a daily fee course and worth a visit!
Mark
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Malcolm,
I think that the terrain has a good deal to do with the dramatic features found at Yale, Fishers Island and NGLA.
I think you could say the same about the 4th nine at Montclair and to a degree about the Knoll, a wonderful, underrated golf course.
NGLA has some of the same large, bold features, integrated with subtle features.
It's special and shouldn't be missed.
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Thanks to all for the kind comments. It's hard to take credit for these photos though as it is the course itself and the weather that makes them what they are. There aren't many courses that provide as many favorite holes as Yale.
It's funny how seeing pictures of golf holes from long ago in your life brings back a rush of memories of so many extraneous things--kind of like a song does.
Jim - Before I started taking photos of courses I had a difficult time remembering much about many courses that I played only once or twice. The photos enable me to remember just about every shot and lots of "extraneous" things like who told what joke where, and what song I was whistling at the time. Even if I played like crap, the photos seem to provide good memories.
Insert Quote
I think we should commission Stewart to tour the top 20 courses, camera in hand. The pictures are outstanding on several levels.
By the way, what camera did you use?
Charlie - Where do I sign up? Shoot, I'll be happy to photograph any of the top 20. I used a Lumix FZ 200. It's a bit bigger than I'd like, but for a non SLR it is not bad and provides enough range to pan and zoom that you can frame a shot nicely from wherever your ball lands and it is pretty good in low light for twilight rounds.
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Malcolm,
I think that the terrain has a good deal to do with the dramatic features found at Yale, Fishers Island and NGLA.
I think you could say the same about the 4th nine at Montclair and to a degree about the Knoll, a wonderful, underrated golf course.
NGLA has some of the same large, bold features, integrated with subtle features.
It's special and shouldn't be missed.
Pat, you need to go convince those guys at the Knoll to expand their greens out to the original sizes. The course would be dramatically improved! When I was out there last year, that was my biggest concern...otherwise, its great!
Mark
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Mark,
When you consider who owns The Knoll, I think my advice would fall on deaf ears.
Years ago my club in Wayne considered a swap for The Knoll.
I wish we had executed that swap.
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What kind of swap?
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What kind of swap?
Clubs/courses
Preakness Hills for The Knoll
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This thread makes me want to make the trek to New Haven, CT. What a great thread, and a great course as well.
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JD,
The course is stunning in scale and in the quality of the architecture.
If you venture to New Haven, other than with the weather, you won't be disappointed.
It's a golfer's treat.
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Excellent Thurs and Friday at Yale.
Thursday greens were fastest I have experienced there, could be close to 11. CONTINUE and loads of break. Saw a good young golfer in front of us putt off the 7th green and down the hill. LOVE the 8th, one of the best holes in the world (I M H O)
27 holes of alternate shot at O C "Punch Bowl" event on Friday with greens slower, perhaps nearer to 10. Awesome (!!) 27th hole with all 50 plus members taking a shot to the back pin on upper plateau of the #9 Biarritz green - about 230 yards !!
Best conditions I have experienced at Yale, fairly firm and fast. Even the leaves weren't too bad.
Wm Flynnfan
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I think 8 is one of the most under rated when people talk about Yale. Maybe because it sits right in line with 9 and 10 which tend to dominate conversation. 8 is ceratainly one of the best on the course.
Mark
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I think Bill's praises of number 8 are well deserved its a great hole and certainly overlooked. I played there yesterday as well as last Friday, playing 2 rounds over a few days really helps open the eyes and see even more great things about this gem. Yale is one of the few golf courses that you play 18 holes that all feel very unique and different.
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Mark,
One of the reasons I think # 8 is perceived as great by many people is that it doesn't overwhelm the golfer in terms of demands on distance.
It's the uniqueness of the features that golfers tend to fall in love with.
Probably a great example of how a hole can be great without excessive difficulty.
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Is 8 really overlooked?
It was my immediate favourite on first play... It's got the best ground movement through the green, the best green and the boldest bunkering... (all arguably, of course)
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A recent revisit of Yale was with fall colors farther along than any of my previous times. My latest updated photo album is well worth the visit, IMHO, and now includes hole diagrams too:
http://xchem.villanova.edu/~bausch/images/albums/Yale/
Please, enjoy!
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Great pictures and almost a year to the date since the last post on this thread.
Reading back, I agree with everything said about Yale. I visited this past summer with few expectations and was blown away by the topography and the bold features of many of the holes. I was disappointed by the conditions of the course, however, and hope they continue to work on this.
The best part of the day though was seeing the number of beginners getting to experience a course like Yale as their "home" course
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Last week, I played Yale for the first time in 12 years. I plan to become a semi-regular there, so I'll have many more thoughts and photos to share at some point, but here are a few "third impressions":
Of course, my memory of how the course looked in 2002 is foggy, but I think that the tree removal project has greatly improved the intimate feeling of this big golf course. This view of the eighth green shows how clearly you can see the second hole:
(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-EpS0bIhZ770/VG-CTO9BBWI/AAAAAAAAJP4/p-S91jGVbv4/s800/IMG_0030.jpg)
I don't remember that I realized the fifth and 15th greens were so close together, as another example. The project is ongoing: a number of trees have been felled and are awaiting cleanup between the 12th and 17th fairways. In addition, the tree removal also adds width and playability. On such a demanding golf course, the width is very helpful.
I thought the course was in excellent condition. They were in the middle of what seemed to be a staged aerification project, so I can't comment on the greens in particular except to say I thought they were in very good shape for punched greens.
It was one of the most walkable courses I've played in recent memory. Green-to-tee walks are nonexistent, except for between nine and ten, if you are playing the right tees.
A few thoughts on specific holes and shots:
The eighth tee shot reminded me of the 16th at Pasatiempo. Surely it wasn't a template hole for MacKenzie, but it's an interesting coincidence, given that they were built within a few years of each other.
The approach to the tenth is just astonishing, given the technology of that era. The seventh and 12th are similar, but somehow not quite as extreme to me.
The 13th, a downhill Redan, was interesting to me because you can see the entire green from the tee despite the green sloping away.
Has anyone ever played #17 from the fringe behind the 16th green? Looks like a fun but scary tee shot, over the pond and ridge, between or over the trees, and turns the hole into a 470-yard par 4.
From the championship tees, 18 might be the first par 5.5 I've ever played. Unless you're long enough to carry the first mountain, the fairway seems too narrow for a driver. Maybe I'll change my mind about this over the years. Maybe it's not that long, and I wasn't able to carry it because of the wind?
(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-SdX-QFprdY0/VG-ByKQgXdI/AAAAAAAAJPw/JIJ6-uB0-0A/s800/IMG_0025.jpg)
(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-AOsEHctxYLI/VG-CVdBMthI/AAAAAAAAJQA/YfK6DYSRsbs/s800/IMG_0031.jpg)
Two more notes: They're constructing a new driving range across the street from the current one, and turning the existing one into a three-hole par-3 course. Does anyone know who's doing the work?
On a warmish Friday at noon, my playing partner and I had the place to ourselves. One foursome teed off behind us, and we encountered two random singles who seemed to be practicing or skipping around. I can't believe a gem like this isn't packed every single day, regardless of the season.
JB
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I found 18 to be pretty long and I'm a decent length hitter and I played it on a relatively calm day. I think the play is to lay up short of the hill--the hole sort of forces one to do that and I really don't have a problem with that
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Two more notes: They're constructing a new driving range across the street from the current one, and turning the existing one into a three-hole par-3 course. Does anyone know who's doing the work?
On a warmish Friday at noon, my playing partner and I had the place to ourselves. One foursome teed off behind us, and we encountered two random singles who seemed to be practicing or skipping around. I can't believe a gem like this isn't packed every single day, regardless of the season.
JB
I played Yale in September and also noticed the plans for the new practice area. I asked Peter Pulaski about it and he said it was still out to bid. (As of September 4th)
I have been fortunate to play Yale at least once a year for the last 10 years. Yale annually hosts the CSGA State Four-Ball Championship. I am amazed every year I go back at how much work has been done from the prior year. The course has really come alive in the 10 years that I've played it. Two years ago as we approached the fifth hole, Scott was out on the green laying down sod to recapture some of the old pin locations.
In the last two years they have added new tee boxes on 3 of the Par. 3's. The 5th, 13th and 15th. The new 5th tee is only a few steps off of the fourth green. 13 is on top of the hill near the directional flag for the 12th hole, making this hole well over 220 yards. This year I noticed a lot of trees recently cleared on 14 into 15, which opened up a new tee box for 15. Yale is hosting the NCAA Eastern Regional Championships May 14-16, 2015
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A recent revisit of Yale was with fall colors farther along than any of my previous times. My latest updated photo album is well worth the visit, IMHO, and now includes hole diagrams too:
http://xchem.villanova.edu/~bausch/images/albums/Yale/
Please, enjoy!
The autumn roll of the dice-colors or clear sky or both?
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Guys:
As great as Yale, no discussion of the course would be complete without mentioning it as the venue for one of the great moments in GolfCubAtlas.com history: the famous "tough love" talk by Tommy Naccarato that left the Yale brass speechless.
It was a classic every bit as much as the course is a classic.
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Transcript, please.
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Transcript, please.
Ronald,
Perhaps that should be left to our host Geoffrey Childs.
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Is 8 really overlooked?
It was my immediate favourite on first play... It's got the best ground movement through the green, the best green and the boldest bunkering... (all arguably, of course)
Ally,
It's one of my favorites as well.
For some reason it seems to be placed lower on the totem pole by many.
I think it's spectacular, from tee to green and then, on the green.
Perhaps some forget it's appeal and value because they're dazzled by the next hole !
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Even a few months removed from my first and only trip to Yale thus far, so many of the holes stand out to me. Truly amazing place. Number 2 stands out to me as an underrated hole. 8, 9, and 10 is about as varied and dramatic a three hole stretch as I've seen as well
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https://photos.app.goo.gl/toDeThf1LGxcMjfn1 (https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__photos.app.goo.gl_toDeThf1LGxcMjfn1&d=DwMFaQ&c=cjytLXgP8ixuoHflwc-poQ&r=o_ACjwA0SGyHaiflS4zyIRJk45GVecqp5Fo__UIF2Pk&m=n_UgKQLhUR-ybuD5Ae_ASCD9VXSDCEHSqHPhFlsKWvo&s=G3Ko2GyWaUGHjlLw06CAdZFCFDsQxNmFq5VPWgQ5KHQ&e=)
Here's a link to some still images of Yale's greens (holes 1, 2, 3, 7, 8, & 9) from this past October. And each has been quickly photo shopped based on the 1934 aerial images. A few of those original bunkers were among the largest from that era. While we took care to be as precise as possible, it was done quickly and isn't meant to be the final word on the actual dimensions.
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Among the many dumb decisions I made when I was young, near (or at) the top of the list is being too busy hanging out and/or too lazy to play there more than a few times when I was a student some 40 years ago. Even through the fog of time, the course remains a memory of brilliance in variety, scale, and audacity (and difficulty).
Ira
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I have 3 questions.
Has any restoration work been done on Yale in the last few years?
Is Scott still the superintendent?
What happened to the Gil Hanse restoration project and building a 2nd course?
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"The biggest changes over the last few years have been the continued green expansions, and removal of trees. Colin is showing us some future possibilities for additional green expansions."
From June 2019 visit:
And the process continues at Yale with the removal of trees at the 6th hole dogleg:
(https://static1.squarespace.com/static/57408b97f85082130768fb62/t/5d09f0381b1858000164b70b/1560932413849/tkHajq2iSCCydBEoJ77FVA.jpg?format=1000w)
Trees gone around 6th Green:
(https://static1.squarespace.com/static/57408b97f85082130768fb62/t/5d09f04d2c88210001f06485/1560932435465/8%2BRAQPsUSNi0D%2BNCBgg27A.jpg?format=1000w)
Not sure if the 8th Green is larger, but it is not getting any smaller:
(https://static1.squarespace.com/static/57408b97f85082130768fb62/t/5d09f071f10b3f0001d472a1/1560932469125/YpyXzMowQvmbGRv35m7JFQ.jpg?format=1000w)
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I edited my old post above by accident but added the new pictures from last week of the tree removal on #6. Colin, Scott, and Peter make the place better and better every day. Here is Colin's old green sketches:
https://photos.google.com/share/AF1QipO2WGAbLvLj9aHI3-yXq2Vm14Vl_8q9azV2KH9qn9jMD1g8_KdMFMGnBnz4tQBrOg?key=cVpmNUhSM0k1NU9CZmNKZzBqYkJiZ2tueE43MmFR (https://photos.google.com/share/AF1QipO2WGAbLvLj9aHI3-yXq2Vm14Vl_8q9azV2KH9qn9jMD1g8_KdMFMGnBnz4tQBrOg?key=cVpmNUhSM0k1NU9CZmNKZzBqYkJiZ2tueE43MmFR)
They are also starting to cut down the rough on some of the fairway mound landing areas on #18. I forgot to take a picture of that, but you can see the deep hay is cut on the front and bailout/blocked right side mounds of #13:
(https://static1.squarespace.com/static/57408b97f85082130768fb62/t/5d09f29ac4cfd1000178af29/1560933024857/kxyp2zR9Q26VtIAkjN6OvA.jpg?format=1000w)
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Mike,
I'm glad you got such a gorgeous day on Friday.
There remains only three trees left which would improve the architecture upon their removal: the two behind the second green and the one left of eight. Everything after that would be for corridor width, airflow and circulation.
Last year's drainage work on 7, 8, 10, 14, 16, 17 and 18 has been miraculous. There's about (or even less than) $100K in remaining drainage work: parts of the 18th fairway near the green, some bits to the right of the 16th fairway, some slit drainage on 6.
Fairway expansion on the right of 16 on the high mound has been fantastic. So is the fairway width on 10.
Incremental green & tight mow expansion from last year has come in really well. Other than restoring the double punchbowl third green, the only major green expansion that remains is on hole 6. Everywhere else it's just an extra pass or two of the triplex: front right and back rim of 1, front right of 2, front left of 4, back right of 7, front left of 8 and its back rim, the back rim of 9, right side of 12, and front right protruding elbow of 18.
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Yale is just fantastic
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When I was a Freshman at Yale the year Don January won the Vardon Trophy, I was hitting balls in the net in the gym and a guy stopped to watch. A couple of days later, he was back and introduced himself as the Golf Coach. He suggested that I tryout for the team. When I explained that my practice swing was much better than my course swing, he replied that at least I would get a couple of free rounds at a great course.
After the tryouts, the Coach in good humor told me that I had good self-awareness of the quality of my game. But I did get those free rounds on a wonderful course. Plus I naturally chalk up part of the reason for my scores to how difficult the course is.
Ira