Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture Discussion Group => Topic started by: Ryan Heiman on July 04, 2013, 05:09:18 PM
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Guys,
I'm more of a reader than a poster here, but I heard a rumor that there might be some new courses being built in the sandy terrain about 1/2 hour from Wisconsin Dells. That is all the info I have. Is there any truth to this, and any more details? It would be really exciting if it were true, living in the Twin Cities, MN this would be a great road trip.
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Ryan:
It's not a done deal yet, but it is a distinct possibility. That's all that anyone can say about it for probably a few months more.
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Guys,
I'm more of a reader than a poster here, but I heard a rumor that there might be some new courses being built in the sandy terrain about 1/2 hour from Wisconsin Dells. That is all the info I have. Is there any truth to this, and any more details? It would be really exciting if it were true, living in the Twin Cities, MN this would be a bad road trip.
Ryan,
In what direction? Who's involved?
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Sorry, 1/2 hour in what direction? There is sandy soil in that area?
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I don't know which direction. But growing up in WI and traveling through that area often, it is sandy all around there for miles.
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Looking forward to hearing more about this project if it progresses.
Brad
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It's a homerun with Lawsonia nearby. Throw in Kohler and Erin Hills for the belt-notching crowd and you have a hell of a destination trip.
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From the information provided (admittedly quite vague) the site or sites may be located somewhere within the sand plains that were left over when the prehistoric Glacial Lake Wisconsin drained through the Wisconsin Dells to the southeast. Knowing the relative reasonableness of WisDNR, my only concern would be if the site or sites contain wonderfulpreciousuntouchablewetlands.
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Any word on whether the courses are public, private, resort? Also, what's the season there? In Minneapolis, seems like I started one year in mid-to-late April.
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I'd guess the season is 4/15-10/31 ish.
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I'd guess the season is 4/15-10/31 ish.
That's about right. Most years you could go a little later into November but conditions tend to be pretty muddy and spotty into mid-May too. Of course, if the soil near the Dells is sandy enough, it might alleviate some of that.
Spring in Southern Wisconsin might be the crappiest season I've ever experienced. Fall in Southern Wisconsin is glorious though.
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So someplace right in here:
(http://img.geocaching.com/cache/58cfda26-125c-4b68-a96e-d3cccf98d3e0.jpg)
I've spent a fair amount of time around the Dells, but candidly I don't remember it being sandy. Guess it is though.
There are quite a few lack-luster resort courses in the area, but Lawsonia is only 30 min or so NE. Would be great if couple new golf courses would be built nearby (hopefully by Mr. Doak) as it would make for a perfect road trip down from the Twin Cities!
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Jackson County is one of my favorite outdoors recreation areas. The fishing is good, there is whitewater kayak area on the Black River and below the Black River Falls dam was a fantastic canoe camping trip. The scenery is stunning for a flatlander like me.
The soil is sandy by the river. The rest of the county I can't say.
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I've always thought the central sand plains and gentle hills of central Wisconsin would make ideal golfing land; as Pat's graphic points out, there is a significant area of sandy soils bordered roughly y the Wisconsin Dells in the south and Wisconsin Rapids in the north. It bears some similarity to the sandy terrain of North Carolina and its well-known Pinehurst-area courses. (Oddly, this thread popped up just as I drove through this area less than two weeks ago.)
But it's also one of the least densely populated areas of Wisconsin, for good reason. The soils there are so poor for growing things that the small farm towns found all over the southern two-thirds of the state never sprouted up there. There's some timber there, but most of the good timber land is much farther north. There is no community of any size in the central sands region of the state, unless you count Black River Falls and its 3,500 residents.
In short, I can't see how any golf endeavor built there could succeed unless it's a fairly high-end resort or destination course -- and I wonder just how many more of these the state can support. Kohler has his four big courses, but those have the lure of hosting major tournaments, and are tied to the very nice American Club resort in Kohler proper. Erin Hills has the cache of being a US Open course, and the accommodations there are growing and very well-done -- you can spend a very pleasant weekend there with fine food and housing without leaving the site. Lawsonia is sui generis -- really, the best (by far) Classic-era public course in the state, and tied to a conference center with plenty of housing and the Green Lake area, which has long drawn an old-money crowd from around the state and even Chicago. The Lake Geneva resort courses have a similar draw.
Throw in a bunch of other fairly high-end courses built in the past two decades -- Nicklaus' Bull at Pinehurst Farms outside Sheboygan, the Hanse-Fry Wild Rock (tied closely to a resort in the Dells), Lehman's Troy Burne near the Wisc.-Minn. border -- and I really question whether the state can keep drawing folks from the Twin Cities and Chicago to play all this. (I say that because the Wisconsin economy still continues to putter along, and the willingness of state golfers to keep paying close to -- or more than (alot more than) -- $100 for a round of golf strikes me as near its breaking point.)
That's not to say you couldn't build a great course in the central Wisconsin sand hills/plains -- you almost certainly could. But who's going to play it?
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I have heard for a few years now that one of the bigger golf course contractors has some land near Erin Hills and was contemplating a similar course. Probably permanently on hold.
Great memories of going up to build Lake Arrowhead in Nekoosa as a young pup for Killian and Nugent. I do recall a few holes had some very natural sand dunes that looked like Pine Valley, but Killian had one in particular taken down and shaped because it hid the base of the flag, but it ruined its character. We did leave one near 6 tee, though.
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The Dells area proper could probably use another course.... the only one I know of there of any note is Trapper's Turn, which is good but not spectacular.
Otherwise, there's a lot of mediocrity around.
If something high calibre had existed in the Dells area 15-20 years ago, I would have driven up from Janesville to play it.
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The Dells area proper could probably use another course.... the only one I know of there of any note is Trapper's Turn, which is good but not spectacular.
Otherwise, there's a lot of mediocrity around.
If something high calibre had existed in the Dells area 15-20 years ago, I would have driven up from Janesville to play it.
Matthew:
Have your played Wild Rock? I haven't, but it's in the Dells proper, tied to the Wilderness resort, and has generally gotten pretty good reviews. That's the new Hanse/Fry course. It opened a few years ago.
Also, a buddy of mine -- and a very good golfer -- came back from the old Coldwater Canyon course (now tied to the Chula Vista resort) after it had been renovated and absolutely raved about it.
And North's TT is now 27 holes of decent, solid golf -- I agree with your assessment of it.
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Jeff,
When you said mentioned yong pup, how young were you when you did Nekoosa?
Would you be in charge of the golf course design or did Nugent always make the final calls?
Did you shape features or did you work only from grading plans?
Sorry for the questions, I am always curious how others grew up in the business?
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The Dells area proper could probably use another course.... the only one I know of there of any note is Trapper's Turn, which is good but not spectacular.
Otherwise, there's a lot of mediocrity around.
If something high calibre had existed in the Dells area 15-20 years ago, I would have driven up from Janesville to play it.
Matthew:
Have your played Wild Rock? I haven't, but it's in the Dells proper, tied to the Wilderness resort, and has generally gotten pretty good reviews. That's the new Hanse/Fry course. It opened a few years ago.
Also, a buddy of mine -- and a very good golfer -- came back from the old Coldwater Canyon course (now tied to the Chula Vista resort) after it had been renovated and absolutely raved about it.
And North's TT is now 27 holes of decent, solid golf -- I agree with your assessment of it.
No, I haven't... it's been 11 years since I lived in Wisconsin. Hanse and Fry? Not Hurdzan?
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The area that is perfect for golf is the area from Lawsoina to Stevens Point back to Waupaca. It is covered in sand, lots of openings, mature oak trees/pines, and fairly good movement in the land. In fact some of land may have too much movement for golf but would be stunning to say the least. There are some wetlands but there is plenty of land out there with no wetlands that would be perfect for golf. I am honestly surprised no one like Tom Doak or C&C has built a golf course in this area. Lets chip in some $$ and get this thing started ;D
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The Dells area proper could probably use another course.... the only one I know of there of any note is Trapper's Turn, which is good but not spectacular.
Otherwise, there's a lot of mediocrity around.
If something high calibre had existed in the Dells area 15-20 years ago, I would have driven up from Janesville to play it.
Matthew:
Have your played Wild Rock? I haven't, but it's in the Dells proper, tied to the Wilderness resort, and has generally gotten pretty good reviews. That's the new Hanse/Fry course. It opened a few years ago.
Also, a buddy of mine -- and a very good golfer -- came back from the old Coldwater Canyon course (now tied to the Chula Vista resort) after it had been renovated and absolutely raved about it.
And North's TT is now 27 holes of decent, solid golf -- I agree with your assessment of it.
No, I haven't... it's been 11 years since I lived in Wisconsin. Hanse and Fry? Not Hurdzan?
You're right -- Hurdzan...
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Jeff,
When you said mentioned yong pup, how young were you when you did Nekoosa?
Would you be in charge of the golf course design or did Nugent always make the final calls?
Did you shape features or did you work only from grading plans?
Sorry for the questions, I am always curious how others grew up in the business?
Jim,
No problem. Back in those days, Killian and Nugent always drew grading plans. In some cases, they would bid to contractors and in others, send a field associate such as Bob Lohmann or myself up to build it using a bunch of sub contractors. They would explain you could perhaps save the 10 and 10% profit and overhead of a Wadsworth, but with an agreement specifically telling the owner that we didn't guarantee it.
In spring of 1979 I went to Lynchburg, VA to build a nine holer like that, got back and got sent right up to Nekoosa in the fall and the summer of 1980 to build the front nine at Lake Arrowhead. I was 25-25 and had been with KN since '77. BTW, the back nine got delayed a few years, and was built after K and N split up. With fewer manpower, we recommended a contractor, and Landscapes Unlimited got the bid, one of my first experiences with them. (Actually the first was a three hole remodel in Hammond, IN)
But, lucky me, I lived up there for most of that summer. I was 25 and had been at KN since May '77. Being single and Bob getting ready to be a dad factored into the scheduling.
We brought in a Chicago shaper named Hank Shall, and an irrigation foreman who had worked in WI. We used a Wisconsin earthmover from Plover (he had the most machines, and our theory was he would bring the right ones. Some smaller firms had only track hoes, so what do you know, they thought all dirt was track hoe dirt, or trucks, so it was truck dirt.) I recall the cut and fill as being 90K on plans, but the earth mover was pretty crafty at finding closer dirt. For anyone who has played there, the fifth tee was originally scheduled to get dirt from the pond across the street, but he made a large cut where the path is and built the tee up with that, all news to this then 25 year old! Most labor was from homeowners kids, which proved to be a challenge, working with teens and college kids.
So, I mostly set stakes and ran the crew, with some tractor work, but no shaping. Also recall putting out a forest fire one day......great learning for me. Would drive up every Monday leaving Chicago about 4AM, and drive back every Friday leaving at 4PM, but when seeding came, I stayed a few weekends to finish it out.
Two funny labor stories, though. One kid, college age, jumped out of the irrigation trench and started to leave. Asked where he was going, he said his dad told him if he hadn't gone to college, he would dig ditches all his life, and it just dawned on him that was just what was happening.
A high school kid was a real problem, no interest. We started edging bunkers and he asked why I was doing what I was doing with the spray can. At the end of the day he asked if he could try it and I let him. He was pretty good at it and looked forward to it so I let him keep doing it. One day a guy comes in asking for me. It was his father and he said that the kid had always been lazy but the last week he couldn't wait to get to work, was excited and pleasant, and he wanted to know what my motivation skills and techniques were! Still wonder about that kid to this day.
Good times, and I always thought it was a pretty nice course.
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But who's going to play it?
If Tom Doak, C&C, Hanse, etc built a couple courses in Central Wisconsin much like a Streamsong style resort I'd head down at least once a year. The fact that Lawsonia is also in the area makes it a slam dunk for me at least. As far as the Twin Cities market I'd say Erin Hills and Kohler are a little too far away for a one night stay. While the Dells are only a few hours and straight down 94. Plus it's close the Chicago and Milwaukee.
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Lake Arrowhead was where my older brother played in the 1989 Wisconsin state high school tournament. He didn't play that well, but I still remember the 50 foot putt he made on the par-3 (#7) for a deuce. Got up at 5 AM on the second day to drive up there from Janesville.
He was really looking forward to getting back there his senior year, but they moved it Fox Hills in Mischicot, which was a terrible mistake.
We all went to adopt a dog that night from the shelter, and the one we picked ended up living 18 years with us.
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Good news...
This morning on "Morning Drive," Matt Ginella confirmed the course in Wisconsin will be Mike Keiser's next U.S.-based destination. Matt subsequently tweeted (https://twitter.com/MattGinellaGC/with_replies (https://twitter.com/MattGinellaGC/with_replies)):
"Coming soon in Rome, WI, 2 hours from Milwaukee/3 from Chicago, Keiser's next destination. Doak, Urbina, Coore & Kidd have all been to site."
"Plenty of room for 4 courses in Rome, but for now, Keiser's planning 1 course in 60-ft. dunes along rapids of Wisc. River & modest lodging.".
"On Rome, Wisc: Keiser believes at least 2 courses make a destination. I'd expect/guess 1 in 3 years (Doak); 2 in 5 years (Coore & Crenshaw)."
"It wasn't too long ago Kohler marched around SW Coast of Oregon & considered competing with Keiser. Two can play that game. Knock, knock..."
According to the town website, Rome is "located on the northern border of Adams County, one and one half hours northwest of Madison and only 45-minutes north of the Wisconsin Dells area." (http://www.romewi.com/ (http://www.romewi.com/))
Anyone here familiar with the site or area? (Beyond Tom and Jim.)
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Would be great to get more details in bigger than 140 character snippets.
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Awesome news, for sure! And at only 3.5 hours from the Twin Cities!
Would love more detail, of course.
After scanning the area via satellite I can honestly say I don't see anything resembling dunes, but I trust that they are there.
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Seeing as the 2 lakes where the WI river is dammed-up make-up the majority of the western boundary of Adams CO, I'd venture a guess that the property in question is somewhere south of Castle Rock Lake, which would put it about an hour west of Lawsonia.
https://maps.google.com/maps?q=Adams+County,+WI&hl=en&ll=43.922626,-89.696503&spn=0.857586,1.837463&sll=44.123085,-89.594879&sspn=0.854691,1.837463&oq=+Adams+County&t=h&hnear=Adams,+Wisconsin&z=10
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Perhaps Mr. Keiser's dream of re-building the Lido is about to be realized?
"Is there any question this would be a winner?"
More...
http://www.golfworldmagazine.com/golfworld/20130128?pg=27#pg27
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According to the town website, Rome is "located on the northern border of Adams County, one and one half hours northwest of Madison and only 45-minutes north of the Wisconsin Dells area." (http://www.romewi.com/ (http://www.romewi.com/))
Anyone here familiar with the site or area? (Beyond Tom and Jim.)
Are their 2 Rome, WI's? From a quick google maps it's bringing me to a small town about halfway from Milwaukee and Madison. Way southeast of this discription.
That would be great, I wonder if they will be public or private.
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According to the town website, Rome is "located on the northern border of Adams County, one and one half hours northwest of Madison and only 45-minutes north of the Wisconsin Dells area." (http://www.romewi.com/ (http://www.romewi.com/))
Anyone here familiar with the site or area? (Beyond Tom and Jim.)
Are their 2 Rome, WI's? From a quick google maps it's bringing me to a small town about halfway from Milwaukee and Madison. Way southeast of this discription.
Yes -- one just east of Fort Atkinson, in southeast Wisconsin, and one just south of Wisc. Rapids, in central Wisconsin. It's the latter one under consideration.
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There is plenty of sand under those pines. It may very well be similar to the sand barren pines of N.C. around Pinehurst. That sort of area extends a great way. Even Camp McCoy is full of sand-pine barrens.
The question is.... will there be a market of golfers? There are 1000s of areas of sandy barrens in this country. But, are there golfers near or willing to travel to them? Sand Hills is special because of the vast alluring empty spaces to 'get away'. But, sandy pine barrens are in many places throughout the country, and not even as remote as Hooker Co and Mullen, etc. But, is Adams Co WI appealing and unique enough to be a destination? Camelot, Arrowhead, Castle Rock and that area are pretty saturated with cabin retreats already. As Jeff was saying, they were on that area 30 years ago with their project at Lake Arrowhead. Can the area support yet another project with enough draw from TCs and Chi-Milw-Madtown and Dells goers?
Besides Lake Arrowhead, a pretty decent private club is north of there in Wisconsin Rapids, Bullseye, designed by the Packards. That is also on a sandy pine barren site on the river.
Gotta admire the intrepid and entrepreneurial spirit of Keiser if he is the guy who is going to bring more great golf to that area for us Badgers, if it is in the realm of what Badgers will pay and afford... ;) ;D
Eric, Pinehurst-like, yes.... Lido, not so much given the terrain.
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This is phenomenal news. Keiser is my hero. Golf was meant to be played on sand. When you think of it in those terms it's a no-brainer. Any Chicagoan with a clue will make a beeline for this place. Kohler should be afraid, very afraid. I might call an audible on one of those GCA's however... ;)
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This is phenomenal news. Keiser is my hero. Golf was meant to be played on sand. When you think of it in those terms it's a no-brainer. Any Chicagoan with a clue will make will make a beeline for this place. Kohler should be afraid, very afraid. I might call an audible on one of those GCA's however... ;)
Sand is such a great soil ... if only I had the time to get to such locals with any regularity. :'(
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If it is a go, and Keiser picks Doak, then Brian Schneider ought to be a no-brainer to lead the project! 8)
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There is plenty of sand under those pines. It may very well be similar to the sand barren pines of N.C. around Pinehurst. That sort of area extends a great way. Even Camp McCoy is full of sand-pine barrens.
The question is.... will there be a market of golfers? There are 1000s of areas of sandy barrens in this country. But, are there golfers near or willing to travel to them? Sand Hills is special because of the vast alluring empty spaces to 'get away'. But, sandy pine barrens are in many places throughout the country, and not even as remote as Hooker Co and Mullen, etc. But, is Adams Co WI appealing and unique enough to be a destination? Camelot, Arrowhead, Castle Rock and that area are pretty saturated with cabin retreats already. As Jeff was saying, they were on that area 30 years ago with their project at Lake Arrowhead. Can the area support yet another project with enough draw from TCs and Chi-Milw-Madtown and Dells goers?
Besides Lake Arrowhead, a pretty decent private club is north of there in Wisconsin Rapids, Bullseye, designed by the Packards. That is also on a sandy pine barren site on the river.
Gotta admire the intrepid and entrepreneurial spirit of Keiser if he is the guy who is going to bring more great golf to that area for us Badgers, if it is in the realm of what Badgers will pay and afford... ;) ;D
Eric, Pinehurst-like, yes.... Lido, not so much given the terrain.
RJ,
It might be the best site in Wisconsin for a destination golf resort. Erin Hills, Kohler, and even Lawsonia might be too far away to capture day or one-night golfers from the Twin Cities. So while still being able to take advantage of Chicago, Milwaukee, Madison, and Green Bay golfers they can attract from the (bigger than you think) golfing population of the Twin Cities.
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Pat:
You do realize how "nowhere" this is, right? If it's the land I think it is, anyone who gets there from the Twin Cities in less than three hours is ignoring most speed limits (but perhaps not some of the state's finest :D).
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Pat:
You do realize how "nowhere" this is, right? If it's the land I think it is, anyone who gets there from the Twin Cities in less than three hours is ignoring most speed limits (but perhaps not some of the state's finest :D).
According to Google Maps (always more time accounted for than what it actually takes) Adams, WI is 3hr 15min from my house. It's 3hr40min from my old apartment in downtown Chicago (and it means it's only 3hr 20min from the affluent North Shore). It's 2hr 31min from Rochester, MN and it's thousands of doctors and IBM employees. It's roughly 2hr 24min from downtown Milwaukee, 2hr 13min from Green Bay, and 1hr 34 min from Madison. It's also only ~45min off of I-94 and ~45min north of the Wisconsin Dells. Even if not speeding, this place can be done in a day trip from any of the above starting points, if someone was up for it.
So, it's exactly in the middle of nowhere but it's also in almost the middle of every major metro in the upper Midwest.
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If I were to guess, the land for this project might be a large chunk of land -- all of it with a sandy-soil base -- just south of the Lake Arrowhead golf resort (that Jeff Brauer worked on in his youth... :) ) Just google "Lake Arrowhead WI" and go a little bit southwest; the land I'm thinking of is bordered by Highway 13 on the east side, 16th Avenue on the west, and south of Archer Avenue.
If I were a betting man, I'd guess nearly all of that land is or was once owned by the paper mills, as large mills exist (or did) in nearby Nekoosa, Port Edwards, and the giant Consolidated Papers complex in Wisc. Rapids. Some of it appears logged out, some of it still planted. As the paper mills in Wisconsin gear down their operations (http://www.jsonline.com/business/paper-industry-digital-china-wisconsin-182612951.html), it wouldn't surprise me if the mills have decided to sell off some of their land holdings.
There is a ton of land up there, almost all of it completely unoccupied, just barren with little in the way of roads or infrastructure of any kind -- in essence, a pretty blank slate, which probably appeals to Mr. Keiser (given some of the issues he faced with the Bandon property). Some interesting terrain up there, as well. If I get some time later this summer, I might be able to swing up there and grab some pictures.
Can this fly? Like RJ, I'm a bit skeptical at this point. There aren't any views of the Pacific Ocean, or even Lake Michigan, from south of Wisc. Rapids.
For the life of me, I can't figure out where the 60-foot dunes alongside the Wisconsin River are. ??? There are a couple of big chunks of undeveloped land along the river just south of Rapids, but it's land very similar to where Bull's Eye (private) was built.
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Remember when Kiser was lauded for picking new and/or outside of the box designers?
Even revolutionary can become formulaic.
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Pat:
The "close to lots of big cities" was the very same thinking that Herb Kohler had up his sleeve when people laughed at him (and I know people who literally did snicker) for putting up a bunch of high-end golf courses in the brat capitol of the world. And, yes, it worked for him.
But this Keiser project is not a day trip from the Twin Cities. I don't think it's a day trip from Milwaukee. It's maybe a day trip from Madison, or the Fox Valley. And it's going to have to be pretty good to get me to day-trip there instead of Lawsonia.
It's not that I don't think quality work could be done there; the soils at a minimum are ideal. It's just that I wonder just how much of this stuff the state can sustain. As others have mentioned, it's not like the utter isolation of the Sand Hills, or hanging on the rim of the Pacific Ocean. It's a bunch of logging land south of Wisconsin Rapids -- I don't know what the opposite term for "destination" is, but if there is one, that's where this is.
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If it is a go, and Keiser picks Doak, then Brian Schneider ought to be a no-brainer to lead the project! 8)
Why is that? I'm sure both Tom and Mike will have a say and it wouldn't surprise me if Jim Urbina or Bruce Hepner became involved.
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If it is a go, and Keiser picks Doak, then Brian Schneider ought to be a no-brainer to lead the project! 8)
Why is that? I'm sure both Tom and Mike will have a say and it wouldn't surprise me if Jim Urbina or Bruce Hepner became involved.
Joel:
I'm sure RJ said that because Brian Schneider lives in Wisconsin, and went to college there. Plus he's built a couple of great courses, too. However, at present I'm just one of many architects who would like to do the job, and that's all.
I would love to work on a project with Mr. Keiser again, and we'd love to work close to home. I'll be sure to let everyone know if and when there's something more to announce.
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Phil,
I doubt day-trippers are the ultimate target market. It's a perfect location for a weekend resort within reach of millions of people. How many golfers are within a 4 hour drive of this location? How many Doak 8 public courses (or private for that matter) built on sand are within the same radius? You've got Bandon, Bandon East (Cabot complex), and now perhaps Bandon Midwest. Top tier links golf within relatively easy reach of anyone in North America. I think this website should take full credit.... ;D
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I doubt day-trippers are the ultimate target market. It's a perfect location for a weekend resort within reach of millions of people.
And it's the best option possible for all the dads visiting the Dells with the family who don't want to set foot in a water park.
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I doubt day-trippers are the ultimate target market. It's a perfect location for a weekend resort within reach of millions of people.
And it's the best option possible for all the dads visiting the Dells with the family who don't want to set foot in a water park.
They certainly built all of those resorts at the Dells for a reason! Location, location, location....
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If it is a go, and Keiser picks Doak, then Brian Schneider ought to be a no-brainer to lead the project! 8)
Why is that? I'm sure both Tom and Mike will have a say and it wouldn't surprise me if Jim Urbina or Bruce Hepner became involved.
Joel:
I'm sure RJ said that because Brian Schneider lives in Wisconsin, and went to college there. Plus he's built a couple of great courses, too. However, at present I'm just one of many architects who would like to do the job, and that's all.
I would love to work on a project with Mr. Keiser again, and we'd love to work close to home. I'll be sure to let everyone know if and when there's something more to announce.
You're already working close to home....as is Brian. I am thankful for both of those things as the product looks spectacular.
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Phil,
I doubt day-trippers are the ultimate target market. It's a perfect location for a weekend resort within reach of millions of people. How many golfers are within a 4 hour drive of this location? How many Doak 8 public courses (or private for that matter) built on sand are within the same radius? You've got Bandon, Bandon East (Cabot complex), and now perhaps Bandon Midwest. Top tier links golf within relatively easy reach of anyone in North America. I think this website should take full credit.... ;D
Jud: It's a six-month season -- and that includes notoriously fickle May and October. It could maybe open in April, but I've driven through legitimate snowstorms in central Wisconsin in April. And October can be either heaven on earth or awful golf weather up there. And there is nothing of interest nearby -- there are probably five times as many good restaurants in Green Lake (pop. 960) as there is in Wisc. Rapids. It better be one solid and self-sustaining resort, of which there is exactly one other in Wisconsin (with views on one of its premier courses of Lake Michigan).
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Looking at the area of Lake Arrowhead, they sure covered up what sand dunes we were able to leave on the original course (Pines was the one I worked on....I believe Killian went back after I left to do the second one, which I haven't seen)
I think it will work. Chicagoans drive north for weekends. I actually think MSP folks do to, but with this property, they could be induced to go east for at least a few golf trips a year. I know Giants Ridge and Fortune Bay actually still get bus loads of golf groups. I once asked how full the tee sheets were and they told me, just two bookings....but each one was a bus of 64 guys. Very high participation rates up there.
If had the water views some suggest and the sand dunes unadulterated, it would work, IMHO. Not that I need to tell Keiser anything......
BTW, I always allowed four hours from Palatine, IL to the site. In the intervening 30 years, the highways may have widened in spots, but there is also more traffic, so it is still at least 4 hours from the NW suburbs.
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If it is a go, and Keiser picks Doak, then Brian Schneider ought to be a no-brainer to lead the project! 8)
Why is that? I'm sure both Tom and Mike will have a say and it wouldn't surprise me if Jim Urbina or Bruce Hepner became involved.
Joel:
I'm sure RJ said that because Brian Schneider lives in Wisconsin, and went to college there. Plus he's built a couple of great courses, too. However, at present I'm just one of many architects who would like to do the job, and that's all.
I would love to work on a project with Mr. Keiser again, and we'd love to work close to home. I'll be sure to let everyone know if and when there's something more to announce.
I only said that because your bench is quite deep. If you received the job I'm sure any of your associates would do a great job.
Good luck.
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Looking at the area of Lake Arrowhead, they sure covered up what sand dunes we were able to leave on the original course (Pines was the one I worked on....I believe Killian went back after I left to do the second one, which I haven't seen)
I think it will work. Chicagoans drive north for weekends. I actually think MSP folks do to, but with this property, they could be induced to go east for at least a few golf trips a year. I know Giants Ridge and Fortune Bay actually still get bus loads of golf groups. I once asked how full the tee sheets were and they told me, just two bookings....but each one was a bus of 64 guys. Very high participation rates up there.
If had the water views some suggest and the sand dunes unadulterated, it would work, IMHO. Not that I need to tell Keiser anything......
BTW, I always allowed four hours from Palatine, IL to the site. In the intervening 30 years, the highways may have widened in spots, but there is also more traffic, so it is still at least 4 hours from the NW suburbs.
When I lived in the Twin Cities I knew of lots of buddy golf trips to Arrowhead. Went several times myself and included rounds at at Sentry World in Stevens Point. There will be no problem getting bus loads from that part of the country.
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If the water park capital of the world is in WI Dells, then this course(s) will be just fine. MSP folk will drive there for sure. Very central in the state from all angles and great terrain to work with. We took a vacation to the area a few years back and there are so many cool dunes areas currently used for ATV trails. If that is some of the land Keiser is looking into, it will be stunning. Similar to Streamsong, just more trees. 60ft dunes are scattered all around there. I actually commented at the time how cool the terrain would be for a golf course. Much more dramatic than Lake arrowhead. I'll be in Rome next weekend for a family get together, I'll have to snoop around.
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Remember when Kiser was lauded for picking new and/or outside of the box designers?
Even revolutionary can become formulaic.
Are you sure that those lauding him knew what they were talking about?
How do you know that he wasn't simply choosing the designers that best fit his model?
I think sometimes we try and dig too deep into what makes people successful. Maybe Kaiser just figured out earlier then most in the golf business that it is more about the product then the name.
The question is.... will there be a market of golfers? There are 1000s of areas of sandy barrens in this country. But, are there golfers near or willing to travel to them? Sand Hills is special because of the vast alluring empty spaces to 'get away'. But, sandy pine barrens are in many places throughout the country, and not even as remote as Hooker Co and Mullen, etc. But, is Adams Co WI appealing and unique enough to be a destination? Camelot, Arrowhead, Castle Rock and that area are pretty saturated with cabin retreats already. As Jeff was saying, they were on that area 30 years ago with their project at Lake Arrowhead. Can the area support yet another project with enough draw from TCs and Chi-Milw-Madtown and Dells goers?
RJ, while I would never, ever discount the revenue side of the equation, based on what I've heard from someone who grew up in that exact area, a world class golf course could be built and maintained for much less then the norm because of the site, soil, water, and climate. We always spend time discussing and wondering how these out of the way places make it financially, but we hardly ever factor in the financial benefits of building a golf course on a great site where knowledge is more important then construction resources, where you have perfect soil for golf, abundant water and cheap energy. A balance sheet has two side and some of these great sites makes more sense then you might think.
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If the site is, in fact, in Rome Township in Adams County, I am guessing the site is south and west of the current Lake Arrowhead Golf Club along STH 13. According to WisDNR mapping this area has some interested topography (all sorts of ridges and swales ranging from elevation 980 to 1080). According to Addams County mapping this area is owned by a single owner (Plum Creek Timberlands).
I once took a 2-day Amtrak ride to get to Bandon. I'd much prefer a 2-hour drive... :)
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If the site is, in fact, in Rome Township in Adams County, I am guessing the site is south and west of the current Lake Arrowhead Golf Club along STH 13. According to WisDNR mapping this area has some interested topography (all sorts of ridges and swales ranging from elevation 980 to 1080). According to Addams County mapping this area is owned by a single owner (Plum Creek Timberlands).
I once took a 2-day Amtrak ride to get to Bandon. I'd much prefer a 2-hour drive... :)
Interesting. I think you found the plot of land.
Thanks to Google Street View the area does certainly remind me of the North Carolina sandhills. I don't see any dunes, however.
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A better look at where the land might be:
(http://www.plumcreek.com/Portals/0/Images/Wisconsin.jpg)
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I think sometimes we try and dig too deep into what makes people successful. Maybe Kaiser just figured out earlier then most in the golf business that it is more about the product then the name.
Bingo. Some still apparently need to get this drilled into their skulls...
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As a Minneapolitan this is great news and I couldn't be more thrilled. ;D
Depending on how it's developed I think this would pull in a different crowd than Kohler. My impression is that Kohler has evolved into an expensive business golf and couples golf/spa destination that draws mostly from Chicago.
If they stick to a buddy trip model I think they'll do quite well.
Day trips from the larger metros might be uncommon, but I bet they'd do well with 1 night/2 round and 2 night/3 round packages.
There are a lot of guys in Minneapolis with friends in Milwaukee, Chicago and Madison. This seems like a natural meeting place from a geographic standpoint.
Question - How's Erin Hills doing? What types of golfers are visiting there? That might be the most similar type of venue.
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Phil,
I doubt day-trippers are the ultimate target market. It's a perfect location for a weekend resort within reach of millions of people. How many golfers are within a 4 hour drive of this location? How many Doak 8 public courses (or private for that matter) built on sand are within the same radius? You've got Bandon, Bandon East (Cabot complex), and now perhaps Bandon Midwest. Top tier links golf within relatively easy reach of anyone in North America. I think this website should take full credit.... ;D
Jud: It's a six-month season -- and that includes notoriously fickle May and October. It could maybe open in April, but I've driven through legitimate snowstorms in central Wisconsin in April. And October can be either heaven on earth or awful golf weather up there.
Bandon is year round golf which most everything at sea level is on the west coast, eg Pebble, CP, Olympic, CB etc.... (except for the occasional storm)
It is difficult to understand how greatness in golf can only be available for 1/2 the year, but that is another topic, LOL.
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If the site is, in fact, in Rome Township in Adams County, I am guessing the site is south and west of the current Lake Arrowhead Golf Club along STH 13. According to WisDNR mapping this area has some interested topography (all sorts of ridges and swales ranging from elevation 980 to 1080). According to Addams County mapping this area is owned by a single owner (Plum Creek Timberlands).
I once took a 2-day Amtrak ride to get to Bandon. I'd much prefer a 2-hour drive... :)
There's 2 golf courses already there. It looks like there is a sand mine just south of one course. Surprising that both courses were part of housing developments. I wouldn't expect that in a little town.
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It is difficult to understand how greatness in golf can only be available for 1/2 the year, but that is another topic, LOL.
Bill:
There are plenty of great golf courses with 6-month seasons -- assuming Crystal Downs and Oakmont, to name two (with similar 6-month seasons) fit your definition of greatness.
But it's easier to sustain as a member's course. A resort dedicated solely to golf, with nothing nearby of much interest, open for only six months? It will be a challenge, no matter how good the course.
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It is difficult to understand how greatness in golf can only be available for 1/2 the year, but that is another topic, LOL.
Bill:
There are plenty of great golf courses with 6-month seasons -- assuming Crystal Downs and Oakmont, to name two (with similar 6-month seasons) fit your definition of greatness.
But it's easier to sustain as a member's course. A resort dedicated solely to golf, with nothing nearby of much interest, open for only six months? It will be a challenge, no matter how good the course.
Sounds just like Cabot, which is even more remote. Keiser is confident enough in the model to be building the second course.
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I think sometimes we try and dig too deep into what makes people successful. Maybe Kaiser just figured out earlier then most in the golf business that it is more about the product then the name.
Bingo. Some still apparently need to get this drilled into their skulls...
Until the name is part of the marketing....
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If the site is, in fact, in Rome Township in Adams County, I am guessing the site is south and west of the current Lake Arrowhead Golf Club along STH 13. According to WisDNR mapping this area has some interested topography (all sorts of ridges and swales ranging from elevation 980 to 1080). According to Addams County mapping this area is owned by a single owner (Plum Creek Timberlands).
I once took a 2-day Amtrak ride to get to Bandon. I'd much prefer a 2-hour drive... :)
There's 2 golf courses already there. It looks like there is a sand mine just south of one course. Surprising that both courses were part of housing developments. I wouldn't expect that in a little town.
Morgan:
Lake Arrowhead exists as a kind of semi-retirement, semi-weekend condo, semi-second-home resort with two nice golf courses. It's open for public play to anyone, and at a high-season (mid-May to Labor Day) rate of $52 walking/$68 cart, it still falls within the range of what I might call the upper-middle-class/not a special occasion golfing experience in the state. (The September rate, usually a wonderful time for golf around here, is terrific value at $26/42.)
Howard:
Mr. Keiser's built a successful resort next to the Pacific Ocean, and is attempting the same at Cabot next to the Atlantic Ocean -- both near some of the most stunning scenery in North American (the Oregon coast, Prince Edward Island).
Rome, WI, is....um.....not that.
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It is difficult to understand how greatness in golf can only be available for 1/2 the year, but that is another topic, LOL.
Bill:
There are plenty of great golf courses with 6-month seasons -- assuming Crystal Downs and Oakmont, to name two (with similar 6-month seasons) fit your definition of greatness.
But it's easier to sustain as a member's course. A resort dedicated solely to golf, with nothing nearby of much interest, open for only six months? It will be a challenge, no matter how good the course.
gotcha Phil
so then, if you have limited golf season, a great course may be best sustained if it is a private endeavor, like most of the limited season "great ones"
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Phil,
But for someone from Chicago or Minneapolis, having a top-of-the-line "buddy resort" course within a few hours drive would be great.
I say this as someone who has played Cabot each of the last two summers. From Connecticut my family and I drive 14 hours to the south shore of Nova Scotia, where my in-laws have a summer cottage. Then I drive (this year, with my non-golfer wife and daughter) another 4 hours or so each way to play Cabot. Why? Because it's the best public golf experience I can buy.
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Phil,
Kohler ain't exactly cheap, it's a pretty long day trip for most and only 1 course is on the lake. River frontage is more than enough for me if the course(s) are good enough.
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I wonder if another factor in the formula of investing in a project like Bandon, Cabot, Barneygoogles, or Sand Hills is that there needs to be a passionate and committed person there at all times. We see that in Ben and all he did to commit to the entire lifestyle of embracing Invernes. There is Chris Johnson at Dismal, who literally lives there the entire season and beyond with only a few home days. I don't know if Greg Ramsey was on site after the project principal partners changed. But, no doubts of his commitment and passion then and now at the new project. Bandon had on-site key people who adopted the town as home base.
I think that a great course on that land, as any number of architects could do, could work. But honestly, I don't think so at Kohler level prices.
Look at Lawsonia. It is a two course complex, resort in nature, in a very refined or long established resort community on Green Lake, with a conference center, and a national over seer and theme in the American Baptist Assembly. The place is long on history, and has a classic and more modern resort style course. But, look at their green fees. They aren't in the ball park of what Bandon or Kohler charge. If there is any component of this project plan in Adams county to count on some local play, I would be skeptical that there would be local support (like a 75mile radius defined local) that would pay more than $75 to play even a world beater course. Just my opinion... I could be very wrong. But, I know one thing, I'd never have the guts to put up many millions to create another course up there. I might take a chance on a pre-sold membership subscrition private club of a golf only with minimal F&B, where the subscriptions are very affordable, and the cost of the golf course construction allowed the modest fees.
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I wonder if another factor in the formula of investing in a project like Bandon, Cabot, Barneygoogles, or Sand Hills is that there needs to be a passionate and committed person there at all times. We see that in Ben and all he did to commit to the entire lifestyle of embracing Invernes. There is Chris Johnson at Dismal, who literally lives there the entire season and beyond with only a few home days. I don't know if Greg Ramsey was on site after the project principal partners changed.
RJ: There was somebody at Barnbougle every day making sure things went as they should, but it was Richard Sattler, not Greg. Greg was not around too much when we built the course, and he certainly wasn't running the show.
I think that a great course on that land, as any number of architects could do, could work. But honestly, I don't think so at Kohler level prices.
Look at Lawsonia. It is a two course complex, resort in nature, in a very refined or long established resort community on Green Lake, with a conference center, and a national over seer and theme in the American Baptist Assembly. The place is long on history, and has a classic and more modern resort style course. But, look at their green fees. They aren't in the ball park of what Bandon or Kohler charge. If there is any component of this project plan in Adams county to count on some local play, I would be skeptical that there would be local support (like a 75mile radius defined local) that would pay more than $75 to play even a world beater course. Just my opinion... I could be very wrong. But, I know one thing, I'd never have the guts to put up many millions to create another course up there. I might take a chance on a pre-sold membership subscrition private club of a golf only with minimal F&B, where the subscriptions are very affordable, and the cost of the golf course construction allowed the modest fees.
Lawsonia's a nice place, but Lawsonia is not the model for this. And you don't have to tell Mr. Keiser that a project away from the ocean probably won't be able to charge the same prices, unless it blows people's minds. That's why he's being cautious with this one. He's not going to build three or four courses at once, he'll wait to see how the first one does.
But, everyone's expectations seem pretty high now. If a project had to be as successful as Bandon Dunes to be worth doing, then I'd better find another line of work, because I probably won't see that again in my lifetime. Just remember, Mike's goals for Bandon Dunes were nowhere near as high as what it's become, but he thought it was worth doing anyway.
And what if one of us builds a course comparable to Pine Valley out there in the middle of Wisconsin? And then what if one of us builds something comparable to Sand Hills, or St. Andrews, or Shinnecock, just over the next ridge? You guys don't think that would be worth doing? That will be the standard, whoever winds up with the job.
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TD, does Streamsong have comparable characteristics and positioning in a market niche sort of way? I almost might be willing to bet that the actual terrain and sand nature of the soils is better in that Adams Co area.
I'd also have to make the bold statement that if it is down to needing locals to play to augment a regional national public golf seeker market, 3/4 of the retail golfers in that neck of the woods, never heard of Pine Valley. ::)
Yes, I think it is worth doing something great, particularly if it adds a measure of building on the concept that to be great doesn't require a boatload of cash the likes of what Whistling Straits and other very costly projects spent, which was then an automatic placement into a golf market category to which, I for one, don't relate...nor do many folk in that general area of WI, if I were to generalize.
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Tom:
Sure, I think Wisconsin's version of Pine Valley is worth doing. But whether it's "worth doing," vs. whether it can successful, is the skeptic's argument that I think RJ and I are making.
That's probably a bit afield for a website aimed at focusing on architecture, and not the financial risk/success of golf course projects. But the two sort of go hand-in-hand, no? Maybe it's the (former) journalist in me, but I have a hard time accepting the notion that the "best" of anything can be successful no matter any other considerations.
And at least for me, one of the reasons for the skepticism is that Wisconsin has seen quite a bit of this. If Mr. Keiser plans to go slowly, and build out only one course initially, how does that differ -- for the consumer -- from Erin Hills (building more and more -- and quite nice -- accommodations by the day, and with the added cache of being a US Open course, something the Rome WI project presumably will lack)? You can argue -- well, the Rome WI course will be superior to Erin Hills (and it may very well be), but that argument will hold sway with a very small slice of the golfing public (disproportionately represented here at GCA... ;))
Lawsonia may not be the model, either, but it will certainly be the competition -- an architecturally significant course in rural Wisconsin. And even Lawsonia appeals to a fairly narrow slice of the Wisconsin golfing public -- the folks I'd like to hang out with (and have), but not most of the folks you find on Madison's or Milwaukee's muni's.
Add in the 20+ years of success that Kohler has had with his four courses, and I just wonder....
Perhaps there's an argument that -- like Apple -- Mr. Keiser is creating demand for a product none of us really realized we wanted until it was available (and one can argue -- I would -- that Kohler has spent the past 20 years doing that here with his courses). The Bandon courses are selling, essentially, the top-level UK links experience (with better showers :D) on home soil. Sand Hills and Dismal seem to be selling the equivalent of golf on Mars -- a place so remote, and so good and unique, you have to experience it once (or perhaps more, if that's your thing). Cabot -- looks great, I just don't know if I'll ever get there in my lifetime, when getting to Scotland seems a lot easier.
Rome, WI? I'm willing to suspend some of my skepticism....but not all of it.
(RJ -- Wisconsin has 72 counties; only 13 have a lower per capita income than Adams County. Local use of the course I'd, charitably, suspect to be nominal.)
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I wonder if there isn't some angle to shoot regarding the financial structure, considering the land may be a logged out tract. Is there some sort of property tax incentive related to depletion or some tax or finance treatment that would encourage an investor to take a leap at this? I have no idea. If the land can be obtained cheap, and the abundance of irrigation water is good, and the sand is in a state of topography and quality that construction is very economical along with turf growing, then what the heck... ::) ;D
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RJ:
I'm sure the land is coming cheap -- Plum Creek is sitting on a bunch of second- and third-growth timber land that none of the mills are buying anymore (well, that's a bit of an exaggeration, but the troubles of the paper industry in Wisconsin are if anything under-stated -- see my reply #38). That may be enough, tax or no tax incentive program. It is a totally blank canvas up there, and I can't imagine the permitting process will be all that challenging, especially if they avoid those 60-foot dunes on the banks of the Wisconsin River. ???
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But, everyone's expectations seem pretty high now. If a project had to be as successful as Bandon Dunes to be worth doing, then I'd better find another line of work, because I probably won't see that again in my lifetime. Just remember, Mike's goals for Bandon Dunes were nowhere near as high as what it's become, but he thought it was worth doing anyway.
And what if one of us builds a course comparable to Pine Valley out there in the middle of Wisconsin? And then what if one of us builds something comparable to Sand Hills, or St. Andrews, or Shinnecock, just over the next ridge? You guys don't think that would be worth doing? That will be the standard, whoever winds up with the job.
Thanks Tom,
FWIW, TOC is a year round golf course, the others mentioned that are great are limited in their golf season.
and THANK YOU MIKE KEISER
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Couple of other observations -
This location has great freeway access.
In terms of getting golfers from outside the area, don't forget the large number of folks who will practically drive right by this course on their way to their cabins.
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Rome, WI, is....um.....not that.
Neither is Pinehurst, Phil. :) ;)
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I'm more worried for Kohler and Erin Hills than I am for Keiser's effort, sight unseen. Fortunately, none of them have to worry about where their next meal is coming from... Phil, just picture this scenario: One of the GCA's mentioned builds a phenomenal course on sand in a climate that will support cool weather grasses and real F&F links conditions. It gets rave reviews. It is priced at or below Whistling Straights and Erin Hills. It has some lake or river views. Perhaps they even allow carts ( :o). Mid to high handicappers who play it find it more fun and forgiving than either of the above tournament venues. It sneaks up the rankings lists. They build out nice, but not overly expensive lodging. They make their own brats. 8) They hire another interesting GCA for a second course. Sound familiar?
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I'm more worried for Kohler and Erin Hills than I am for Keiser's effort, sight unseen. Fortunately, none of them have to worry about where their next meal is coming from... Phil, just picture this scenario: One of the GCA's mentioned builds a phenomenal course on sand in a climate that will support cool weather grasses and real F&F links conditions. It gets rave reviews. It is priced at or below Whistling Straights and Erin Hills. It has some lake or river views. Perhaps they even allow carts ( :o). Mid to high handicappers who play it find it more fun and forgiving than either of the above tournament venues. It sneaks up the rankings lists. They build out nice, but not overly expensive lodging. They make their own brats. 8) They hire another interesting GCA for a second course. Sound familiar?
+1...And they have a great fish fry!
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Well, Kohler and EH will both have major championships on their resumes, and Rome, WI will never host one of those.....
That said, I still say it will work, and all three will stay in business, perhaps at an altered rate structure as the market separates out what is the favorite.
In 30 plus years in this biz, I have found that when times are really tough, golfers don't quit, but they get cheap. Bandon Dunes may be out (heck, they tell me 66% of their golfers arrive by private jet, so it was never really the working man's destination.....). Myrtle Beach and Hilton Head gives way to a closer in trip, etc.
Given the golf participation rates in WI, IA and MN are the highest in the nation, and a probable trend to more regional golf trips, it should still work just fine, especially given Keiser's reputation.
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Phil,
Kohler ain't exactly cheap, it's a pretty long day trip for most and only 1 course is on the lake. River frontage is more than enough for me if the course(s) are good enough.
There really isn't a discernible difference in cost between Kohler and Bandon in the summer. I would be surprised if this new venture provides much of a discount vs. Kohler considering the short season.
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There really isn't a discernible difference in cost between Kohler and Bandon in the summer.
That's accurate if you're looking Kohler's pricing for the River. The Irish and Meadows Valley are even less expensive than the Bandon greens fees. However, the cost for the Straits is an entirely different ballgame for high season. Even the replay rate on Straits is more expensive.
Straits:
Greens fee: $360
Mandatory caddie fee: $60 + tip
Replay: $250
Bandon (4 18-hole courses):
Resort guest greens fee: $235
Replay: $120
http://www.americanclubresort.com/rates/golf_rates.html (http://www.americanclubresort.com/rates/golf_rates.html)
http://www.bandondunesgolf.com/pages/green_fees/118.php (http://www.bandondunesgolf.com/pages/green_fees/118.php)
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That's why he's being cautious with this one. He's not going to build three or four courses at once, he'll wait to see how the first one does.
Granted, I certainly am not an expert in the field, but assuming this is going to be a public or resort access facility, I would think there would be some measure of difficulty measuring the ability of a multi-course project to succeed based on the results achieved when only one course exists.
With so many high end, multi-course complexes in the region for the avid (if not quite a discerning as GCA crowd) golfing crowd, I could see results being drastically different with only one course vs having two courses open. I certainly understand stepping in slowly, and since I live 3 hours from there, I hope it happens.
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There really isn't a discernible difference in cost between Kohler and Bandon in the summer.
That's accurate if you're looking Kohler's pricing for the River. The Irish and Meadows Valley are even less expensive than the Bandon greens fees. However, the cost for the Straits is an entirely different ballgame for high season. Even the replay rate on Straits is more expensive.
Straits:
Greens fee: $360
Mandatory caddie fee: $60 + tip
Replay: $250
Bandon (4 18-hole courses):
Resort guest greens fee: $235
Replay: $120
http://www.americanclubresort.com/rates/golf_rates.html (http://www.americanclubresort.com/rates/golf_rates.html)
http://www.bandondunesgolf.com/pages/green_fees/118.php (http://www.bandondunesgolf.com/pages/green_fees/118.php)
Fair, I was more looking at a summer golf package.
If you wish to stay 3 nights in the most modest double room and play all 4 courses over 3 days it is $1,320 at Bandon, and $1,453 at Kohler (which includes caddy's at the 2 walking only courses). My point was simply that considering Bandon can be supported with year round play, I can't see the new project being that much less expensive than Kohler in the long run. I would suspect if the resort gets up and running, the difference between the two will be experience, not price.
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Fair, I was more looking at a summer golf package.
If you wish to stay 3 nights in the most modest double room and play all 4 courses over 3 days it is $1,320 at Bandon, and $1,453 at Kohler (which includes caddy's at the 2 walking only courses). My point was simply that considering Bandon can be supported with year round play, I can't see the new project being that much less expensive than Kohler in the long run. I would suspect if the resort gets up and running, the difference between the two will be experience, not price.
That makes sense on the pricing.
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I'm more worried for Kohler and Erin Hills than I am for Keiser's effort, sight unseen. Fortunately, none of them have to worry about where their next meal is coming from... Phil, just picture this scenario: One of the GCA's mentioned builds a phenomenal course on sand in a climate that will support cool weather grasses and real F&F links conditions. It gets rave reviews. It is priced at or below Whistling Straights and Erin Hills. It has some lake or river views. Perhaps they even allow carts ( :o). Mid to high handicappers who play it find it more fun and forgiving than either of the above tournament venues. It sneaks up the rankings lists. They build out nice, but not overly expensive lodging. They make their own brats. 8) They hire another interesting GCA for a second course. Sound familiar?
You mean like Wild Horse? ;)
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I can't see the new project being that much less expensive than Kohler in the long run. I would suspect if the resort gets up and running, the difference between the two will be experience, not price.
Well, for starters, how about lower costs for land, construction and maintenance?
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Well, Kohler and EH will both have major championships on their resumes, and Rome, WI will never host one of those.....
That said, I still say it will work, and all three will stay in business, perhaps at an altered rate structure as the market separates out what is the favorite.
In 30 plus years in this biz, I have found that when times are really tough, golfers don't quit, but they get cheap. Bandon Dunes may be out (heck, they tell me 66% of their golfers arrive by private jet, so it was never really the working man's destination.....). Myrtle Beach and Hilton Head gives way to a closer in trip, etc.
Given the golf participation rates in WI, IA and MN are the highest in the nation, and a probable trend to more regional golf trips, it should still work just fine, especially given Keiser's reputation.
I have a very hard time believing that figure.
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I can't see the new project being that much less expensive than Kohler in the long run. I would suspect if the resort gets up and running, the difference between the two will be experience, not price.
Well, for starters, how about lower costs for land, construction and maintenance?
I hope you're right ... I am the target audience for this course, and I would certainly welcome a chance to take a nice couple day trip (or even a long day drive) and not have to spend twice what it costs for annual dues at some decent semi-private courses in our area. I would be pleasantly surprised if that is the case.
In the end, based on the very little information we know (Location, developer, potential GCA's), I would anticipate the cost is much closer to Kohler than Lawsiona or a place like Geneva National. I hope I'm wrong here.
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Older, partially paid off courses nearly always have a financial advantage over new ones.
You are overestimating the cost savings of "minimalism" and maybe even land purchase, since it is a small part of the total cost. While earthmoving will be less, irrigation cost has exploded over the last decade, even if a cost conscious Don Mahaffey designs and installs it. With sandy soils, it will be necessary. Ditto any structure or infrastructure costs.
Greg,
The 66% figure came right from the GM of BD, whom was giving a quick presentation to members of ASGCA who showed up to play a few years back. So, it is - or at least was - right on. Unless you want to say the GM was lying, which is hard for ME to believe.......
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Older, partially paid off courses nearly always have a financial advantage over new ones.
You are overestimating the cost savings of "minimalism" and maybe even land purchase, since it is a small part of the total cost. While earthmoving will be less, irrigation cost has exploded over the last decade, even if a cost conscious Don Mahaffey designs and installs it. With sandy soils, it will be necessary. Ditto any structure or infrastructure costs.
Greg,
The 66% figure came right from the GM of BD, whom was giving a quick presentation to members of ASGCA who showed up to play a few years back. So, it is - or at least was - right on. Unless you want to say the GM was lying, which is hard for ME to believe.......
Simply saying I have a hard time believing the figure. Nothing less, nothing more.
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Older, partially paid off courses nearly always have a financial advantage over new ones.
You are overestimating the cost savings of "minimalism" and maybe even land purchase, since it is a small part of the total cost. While earthmoving will be less, irrigation cost has exploded over the last decade, even if a cost conscious Don Mahaffey designs and installs it. With sandy soils, it will be necessary. Ditto any structure or infrastructure costs.
Greg,
The 66% figure came right from the GM of BD, whom was giving a quick presentation to members of ASGCA who showed up to play a few years back. So, it is - or at least was - right on. Unless you want to say the GM was lying, which is hard for ME to believe.......
Jeff:
You're underestimating the savings of minimalism, and of Don's work, I think.
Also, I do not know the correct figure for the number of visitors to Bandon Dunes who arrive by private jet, I would bet my next year's design fees that it is nowhere near 66% of the total. Maybe the figure you cited was the number of visitors who arrive by air? Because I am pretty sure that 20-30% of Bandon's annual traffic is from residents of Washington and Oregon who DRIVE there, and when you take that out of the equation, the % attributable to private jets would be impossibly high.
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You're underestimating the savings of minimalism, and of Don's work, I think.
I'm out of my element in knowing the true savings of a fully minimalist design (build and maintain) vs. Erin Hills vs. Kohler.
Having said that, I would really only anticipate those savings being passed to the consumer if they needed to to increase demand for the course. It would not surprise me at all for a first course to be built, and the resort to initially offer fees that are half of Kohler and Erin Hills to build demand. However, if that is successful enough that a decision was made to expand to multiple courses, I would anticipate the cost charged to consumer to elevate to the same neighborhood as the other venues, even if the initial capital outlay and maintenance cost aren't as great.
That said, even if it comes with a hefty price tag, I hope it happens and is successful. With young kids at this time, and the relative difficulty getting to Bandon from the midwest, I don't envision being able to make that trip in the next 5 - 8 years. If this comes to fruition, I'd almost certainly make it happen on a semi-regular basis.
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Tom and Greg,
I was as stunned as you were, as were the others. But, it was Steve Lesnik of Kemper, and someone asked him again. I recall the context was right after AIG cancelled a bunch of tee times at Pebble after taking govt bail out money. My memory may be fuzzy, as in it might have been 60 instead of 65%, but his point was very clear - Bandon was primarily a corporate entertainment venue, and didn't fill as many tee times with golf or architecture enthusiasts as we might think.
Fast forward 4 years and both sides of the equation are more cost conscious, I believe. Not that most of us and businesses ever weren't.
Back in the go go days, I recall being at Giant's Ridge and the guy in the next booth at breakfast figured out who I was from my conversations. Now, GR has the 1 and 5ish public courses in the state, and they are 19/88 nationally. So, he tells me how much he loves the place, which of course puffed me up a bit. He then goes on to say he was a corporate account entertainment guy for a bank and he was always bringing customers up there, and it was his favorite place to entertain their customers. More puffed up. Then he closes with, "I can golf 'em, feed 'em, and sleep 'em for the same amount I pay for golf over in Brainerd." Less puffed up, but lesson learned. Cost matters to almost everyone, and figures into the value they perceive. Luckily, they got what they thought were better courses, but more importantly, for a little less money overall.
At least, that is the MN mentality (politically liberal (i.e. spending others money) but fiscally conservative (when spending their own.....) I got out of that. Naturally they want a different place on most road trips, but they do put their favorites back in the rotation more often. Again, all bodes well for a course that I presume will be perceived as equal or better to its competition, but it still needs to be competitively priced. It may be that it comes in 10% higher in price, which is fine, as long as its perceived as 10% better a golf course.
OT, but somewhat related because we are discussing buddy trips, a source in Myrtle Beach tells me a part of their drop in rounds (from 4M at the peak to just over 3M now) isn't fewer trips.....its that they no longer play 36 per day to "max out" their golf trip. He wasn't sure what percentage opted out of round two for aging legs and what percentage opted to save a little cash by avoiding the replay, but seemed to think it was as much or more aging crowds.
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http://www.wisconsinrapidstribune.com/article/20130726/WRT01/307260192/
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Well, Kohler and EH will both have major championships on their resumes, and Rome, WI will never host one of those.....
That said, I still say it will work, and all three will stay in business, perhaps at an altered rate structure as the market separates out what is the favorite.
In 30 plus years in this biz, I have found that when times are really tough, golfers don't quit, but they get cheap. Bandon Dunes may be out (heck, they tell me 66% of their golfers arrive by private jet, so it was never really the working man's destination.....). Myrtle Beach and Hilton Head gives way to a closer in trip, etc.
Given the golf participation rates in WI, IA and MN are the highest in the nation, and a probable trend to more regional golf trips, it should still work just fine, especially given Keiser's reputation.
I have a very hard time believing that figure.
yes that number is totally inaccurate ::)
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Tom and Greg,
I was as stunned as you were, as were the others. But, it was Steve Lesnik of Kemper, and someone asked him again. I recall the context was right after AIG cancelled a bunch of tee times at Pebble after taking govt bail out money. My memory may be fuzzy, as in it might have been 60 instead of 65%, but his point was very clear - Bandon was primarily a corporate entertainment venue, and didn't fill as many tee times with golf or architecture enthusiasts as we might think.
Bandon is still a huge corporate outing golf facility, there is no doubt, yet it's the quality of the golf/archictecture that pushes the 16 corporate guys to the Southern Coast of Oregon
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http://www.wisconsinrapidstribune.com/article/20130726/WRT01/307260192/
Not to toot my own horn, but...
In July 2011, Haltom said Oliphant had a small group of private investors interested in building a golf course on 350 acres in Rome owned by Plum Creek Timberlands. The company had an option to purchase the land off of Badger Avenue, near 15th Avenue.
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Well, Kohler and EH will both have major championships on their resumes, and Rome, WI will never host one of those.....
That said, I still say it will work, and all three will stay in business, perhaps at an altered rate structure as the market separates out what is the favorite.
In 30 plus years in this biz, I have found that when times are really tough, golfers don't quit, but they get cheap. Bandon Dunes may be out (heck, they tell me 66% of their golfers arrive by private jet, so it was never really the working man's destination.....). Myrtle Beach and Hilton Head gives way to a closer in trip, etc.
Given the golf participation rates in WI, IA and MN are the highest in the nation, and a probable trend to more regional golf trips, it should still work just fine, especially given Keiser's reputation.
I have a very hard time believing that figure.
yes that number is totally inaccurate ::)
Less than 20% arrive private air - straight from the top. 60-70% of play is from pacific northwest.
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Unfortunately, I re-read this thread and realize I goofed up today. I had to make a trip to Tomah WI today, and had time late this afternoon on the way home to Green Bay, so I thought I'd take a drive-by what I thought was this land in question. However, I went by memory of the thread and thought is was the sections of land bounded by 13 and Badger Ave. So I diverted to that location and did a 3 side of the tract there including Hwy 13, Badger Ave, and County O. Well, I intended to get out and scout a bit, but most every piece of that area is posted no trespassing, and is basically a flat sand/gravel, silt and wetland, scrub pine and thick tangle of deer,lyme tick and turkey infested area. It has some smallish pot-kettle lake called Dorro Couche Lake (any French speakers that can translate that?).
Anyway, it turns out the land in question is about a mile and a half west on Badger Ave than where I was at. The map/aerial looks like there 'may' be a bit of variance from what I saw at 13 and Badger. Well I sure hope so, because that section I looked at was just plain crap! Flat, silty sand plain, wetland and exactly one mail box down from nowhere, WI RFD.
As you can see by link of map, convert to aerial and it may be better terrain at Badger and 15th Ave. with perhaps some elevation change. I sure hope so! ::)
https://maps.google.com/maps?ie=UTF-8&hl=en&tab=wl&authuser=0 (https://maps.google.com/maps?ie=UTF-8&hl=en&tab=wl&authuser=0)
I honestly just can't see the kind of world class or even regional class potential here. And, note on the map that the Lake Arrowhead courses that Jeff was involved with, are a mere 2 miles at the most, north of this property.
Man, if Mr. Kaiser wants to get some land in WI to do a new project, I think I can find him something better than this; land quality and location! ::)
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Man, if Mr. Kaiser wants to get some land in WI to do a new project, I think I can find him something better than this; land quality and location! ::)
RJ: If you know of great, sandy land that could be had cheaply and could be permitted for a golf course, you can come directly to me, and I will scout it for Mr. Keiser.
However, rest assured that the land in question is anything but flat. Some sections of it might be TOO STEEP for a great course, but with 2000 acres to choose from, no architect should have a problem finding something really good.
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RJ:
I'm about 99 percent certain that all of the land under consideration is west of state Highway 13 (and almost certainly west of 13th Avenue, which if you travel north of where you were cuts directly through the Lake Arrowhead courses); east of 16th Avenue; south of Archer Avenue; and north of Badger Avenue. (Adams County, WI, for those looking at maps at home.) Aspen Avenue runs east-west west of Highway 13 through the property , and 15th Avenue runs south from Aspen Avenue through the property. The best land appears to be the stuff directly on either side of 15th Avenue, and either side of Aspen Avenue.
I doubt (speculating here) Mr. Keiser wants to go near Dorro Couche Lake, or any of the nearby wetlands, given DNR oversight of that land for fishing and other activities. The land under consideration has little that I can tell of navigable/fishable waters, and is all (or nearly all) sandy based land.
I agree with your mailbox from nowhere sentiments, however. ;)
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Yes I believe the land in question is west of hwy 13.
RJ and Phil,
I disagree with your belief that the land in question is not all that good. Miles and miles of open ATV trails is a great way to view the property. I thought it was very good!!
1. Lots and lots of sand. The sand has a different texture than many of the sands you will find it Wisconsin. It doesn't appear to be as loamy and almost looks as if native sand could be used for bunkers once stone where removed. Warning the back roads are made from sand ... be careful if you have a small car! :(
2. Large blow outs in spots.
3. Good movement in the land albeit some spots may be too steep.
4. Lots of open area with minimal clearing ... in some cases.
I do agree that the location is in the middle of nowhere but so is Bandon Dunes Resort and Streamsong. I pretty sure the land is much better that what you find in the Pinehurst area and a couple of those courses are highly regarded.
If Tom builds it ... they will come! Had to throw that from my favorite baseball movie!
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Steven:
I've never said the land there is not good; quite the opposite, in fact (see posts 13, 38 ((sort of)) and 40 in this thread). My questions have centered around building a public destination course near not much of anything in one of the poorest parts of the state.
Bandon Dunes overlooks the Pacific Ocean; Pine Valley (to which this project has been compared, by Tom Doak) sits in the middle of the nation's 6th largest metropolitan area (and is private); Streamsong's financial success is hardly assured.
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Phil
Your right I lumped you in with RJ ... my condolences! ;)
Yes time will tell if a resort in that area in a 6-7 month golf season can work as sucsessfully as bandon and streamsomg where golf can be played year round.
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Also just to clarify, I admitted I got the wrong sections and looked at three sides of the land bounded by Badger, hwy13 and O. I misremembered the cross roads. So, if the land changes dramatically in a few miles or less, west of what I saw, then I hope that is the case. What I did say is IMO, what I saw was unremarkable scrub land, and surely no Pine Valley. I know land can change dramatically in a short distance. As a matter of fact, places like Wild Horse (one of my most favorite courses anywhere, sits next to relatively unremarkable land flat land, but itself has very nice rolls and just the right amount of elevation changes. And of course, there is the sand...
I also do believe that developing a market of destination golfers, regionally is a tall order, even for a Tom Doak course. Just look at High Pointe for a comparison. It was reasonably priced golf. That was a nice piece of land (particularly the back 9) and located on the edge of a nice city in Traverse City, and across the road from another highly developed more pricey resort, yet the market and circumstances didn't stand up to the forces of that situation.
There has to be more to the project than just a great golf course, IMHO. Bandon does have an ocean and great resort facility, and Cabot Links does have same with the St Lawrence Gulf and Atlantic Ocean upon a unique remote destination vacation area.
Adams County, not so much... ::) :-\
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Kohler seems to be doing fairly well with a shortened season in the semi-middle of nowhere. This place is perfect for a long weekend from Chicago, Milwaukee and Minneapolis/St. Paul, not to mention Green Bay etc. Roughly 18 million people within a 4 hour drive. What percentage of those play golf? 10%? What percentage of that 1.8mm is a luxury market player? 10%? So using this back of the envelope calculation, there's 180,000 potential visitors. Say they each come once every 4 years and play 2 rounds per visit to be conservative. That's 90,000 rounds per year, and we haven't even discussed folks coming in by air if the place ends up with 2 highly rated courses of distinction.
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Jud, will this market of potential players come without a world class lodge, i.e. "the American Club"? And, if some excellent facility is built, it needs to have great on-site amenities, it seems to me. Would you say the Bandon Resorts is more like camping, or high end lodge with amenities?
On one hand we have TD telling us part of the consideration is that the land is priced right, which implies a low budget. Then we consider if that 180,000 potential you talk about that would have to drive from TC, Mad, Milw, Chi and would they be content with a grill and very modest sleep motel, and not too much in the way of great food?
BTW, if the idea is to have "amenities" of good lodging and food, I have to believe that such an F&B operation requires a pretty stiff check - no matter how cheap you get the land. And, I don't care how great the sandy barrens might be, they won't build a course that doesn't start out pencilling out a green fee of less than $50. But, I think we both know if it has TD or C&C cache, it isn't going to pencil out at a green fee of $50! So, if I were to suggest a modification on how you arrive at the 180,000 potential golfers; perhaps begin with out of the 1.8 million, how many are 1%ers, then whittle down your potential market from there.
Look at Green Lake and Lawsonia. It is an established century old resort haven of tradition for the wealthy up from the cities and a serene retreat for the ABA to this day. It is a beautiful established resort area down in town, with the famed Heidel House and several other famous establishments. And, you can play a world class classic like the Links or a very nice woodland resort course for as little as $30-75! And, they aren't actually breaking any profit records over there. ::)
But, a pox on me for suggesting all this negativity. I'd love to see Mr. Kaiser hit a home run.... again! He can do something spectacular, if he wants, I suppose. ;) ;D 8)
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Jud, I read the golf season in WI is about six months: May through October. To get 90K rounds per year, the course will have to average 15,000 rounds per month. Is that realistic, for a single course hours 2-to-3 hours away from the major population centers?
I also read that golfers played 115,000 rounds on Rancho Park in 2005. That's playing 12 months a year, in the second biggest metro area in the U.S., on one of the nation's busiest courses.
I'm guessing the 90,000 figure should be way lower. Maybe take Bandon Dunes' early figures, before PD opened, and cut them nearly in half, for a ball-park guesstimate.
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Jim,
I meant potential rounds for 2+ courses.
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From the tone of some of the comments, you'd think this place was in the middle of the Canadian wilderness, inaccessible by anything but seaplane. Let's face it, it'll be more accessible than either Bandon Dunes or Cabot Links. True, it won't have oceanfront scenery, but there's cows, corn fields and cheese curds for as far as the eye can see.
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David, it seems to me one main thing it won't have is a full golf season. While Bandon is open 12 months, this will probably only open for six. Seems like that has to affect the financials.
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True, it won't have oceanfront scenery, but there's cows, corn fields and cheese curds for as far as the eye can see.
There is scarce dairy farms in this area of WI. I don't believe I saw a cow within 50 miles of this area on my recent drive around there. It is a lot of scrub land, some row planted timber for pulp, some Christmas tree farms, and mostly scrub woodsy thicket or low wetland for miles around. Two courses? They already have two courses at Arrowhead. They do not do half of 90,000 rounds a year. I would be willing to say there is no golf course in WI that does 45,000 rounds a year. This area of WI arguably has 4 months of decent golf weather, and 2 months of dicey weather. The realistic window of even passionate golfers that would drive regionally to this area is June to mid Sept.
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David, it seems to me one main thing it won't have is a full golf season. While Bandon is open 12 months, this will probably only open for six. Seems like that has to affect the financials.
It would certainly impact financials some, however if they are courses of similar caliber, you probably could charge a little more and shut the doors for November - March 15. As pointed out, you have a very substantial population withing driving distance, and really no other world class "golf only" options like this. It's pretty difficult for almost anyone to get to Bandon without spending at least $500 plus considerable time.
That said, I do understand the concern, and considering you could take a trip to Lawsiona, rent a house for 3 nights and play 4 rounds for under $400, it's reasonable to question if people will be willing to spend the $1,000 it will likely cost here (similar to Kohler). I hope it works, but if I'm being honest not sure I'd want to be a main investor.
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RJ,
I'm just talking about potential golfers. How many rounds does Whistling Straits do? 35,000? at $360 a head? that's $12.6mm. Seems to me that 20,000 at $150 a head is more than enough to pay the light bill. I'd invest in this in a heartbeat. What Erin Hills and Whistling Straits have are difficulty and tournament cred. While I love Lawsonia as much or more than just about anyone here, it's not built on sand and I've yet to have enough interest to even see the other course. What Kohler brings is something far more interesting and valuable- a phenomenal experience for real golfers that is unavailable elsewhere in the local market. How many people go to Whistling Straits to check it off their list and how many return year in and year out because they simply love the experience so much?
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RJ,
I'm just talking about potential golfers. How many rounds does Whistling Straights do? 35,000? at $360 a head? that's $12.6mm. Seems to me that 20,000 at $150 a head is more than enough to pay the light bill. I'd invest in this in a heartbeat. What Erin Hills and Whistling Straights have are difficulty and tournament cred. What Kohler brings is something far more interesting and valuable. A phenomenal golf experience for real golfers that is unavailable elsewhere in the local market. How many people go to Whistling Straights to check it off their list and how many return year in and year out because they simply love the experience so much?
All depends on the initial cash outlay for development.
That said, if Mr Keiser is doing it, I'm sure he has a good feel it will be able to survive. I don't know the man, so I have no idea if his passion for the game and bringing these opportunities enables him to take the risk for a lower ROI than what a typical developer would desire to take the risk.
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Hey guys, I'm a newly registered member but a longtime fan of this site. The location of this is property is only about 15 miles from me/my hometown so I'm pretty excited about it and hopeful that it will happen. I went out there three times on weekends in early September to check it out and take pictures. I thought they might be of interest to everyone here. I walked through different parts of the area each time. There are 116 pictures. I geotagged them and uploaded them to my Panoramio account so you can see exactly where they were taken. Hope you enjoy them.
http://www.panoramio.com/user/3526258/tags/Future%20Golf%20Course%20Site%3F
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Brian:
Thanks a ton for posting these -- saves me a trip up there to do the same! I can see why Tom Doak has visions of Pine Valley in his mind -- some nice contouring to the land there.
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Brian:
Thanks a ton for posting these -- saves me a trip up there to do the same! I can see why Tom Doak has visions of Pine Valley in his mind -- some nice contouring to the land there.
+1
Look at all that sand! These pics are terrific and should remove any doubts about the potential of the site.
Welcome to the site, Brian!
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Thanks for posting Brian! The property looks incredible. Will be great to see what Mike Kaiser & Company do with it.
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I imagine Aldo Leopoldo is rolling over in his grave.
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Yup, that land is 1000% better than what I mistakenly thought was the sections about 1.5 miles due east. The land apparently changes there abruptly. In fact, it appears it may be a similar situation of land changing fairly abruptly like BallyNeal. BallyNeal is in deed an island of great golf course terrain amid a sea boringness. And, perhaps this is like BallyNeal in that it is in a remote part of NE CO, and a fairly long drive from a major city in Denver. So, maybe we have a market of potential customers regionally and national membership potential like BallyNeal.
It is just that I don't think so.... ::) :-\
I have little doubt Doak could actually design a world class golf course there. In fact, on great land, it would be harder for for him to design something off the mark than it would be for him to tease a great routing and course from that terrain. The question is will they come, that far into a relatively undeveloped area, and for what else?
Just for giggles, consider this: We have talked for years and sung the praises of Lawsonia. We have had many threads and raved about the course, and how special it is in fall. We even had a minor GCA gathering there as a broader weekend of Langford and Morreau tribute. We have several other smaller gatherings. It has some rank of public classic courses on some of the magazine lists. And for all that reputation and ranking, Pete Pittock and I played there last week on a dead solid perfect fall day, and we literally had the course to ourselves and maybe two other groups anywhere on the course in sight. And, Green Lake has other attractions! It is closer to population centers. Now, consider Adams County and what it has to offer.
Frankly, to continue on my pessimistic bent, consider that Sentry World with all its purdy flowerbeds and long time reputation as a road trip for regional golfers to go see it, is in the process of nearly a complete remodel. Their customer base has dried up from apparently having seen it once or twice and now yawn at the prospect of driving to play there. Why? And, I'd even go further and say that of the regional market of folk looking for a day or weekend trip to go play somewhere nice, a huge number of said people, if given the choice of going to play a Tom Doak masterpiece in the pine barrens, or go where they have them purdy flowers, would go to Sentry World.
Welcome to GCA Brian. Do you live in Rapids or Point, or other? Where do you play most of your golf?
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It's a good thing RJ wasn't the analyst in charge of deciding whether he should go ahead with Bandon.
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It's a good thing RJ wasn't the analyst in charge of deciding whether he should go ahead with Bandon.
...which overlooks the Pacific Ocean...
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Phil,
How many people live within a 4 hour drive of Bandon? How many live within a 4 hour drive of this site? Lawsonia is a red herring. They have 1 Doak 6 course, they have no lodging to speak of on site and they didn't even sell beer till last year. Chicago has 1 Doak 8 that virtually nobody can access. Whistling Straights and Erin Hills are both overrated IMO. How many Doak 8's are there in Milwaukee and Minneapolis again? And oh yeah, exactly zero of these courses are built on sand. Put 2 Doak 8's on a sandy site with quality room and board in this location and you and RJ will be flipping burgers and brats for me at the turn from here to eternity... 8)
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Jud:
You're talking to a constituency of about 1,500 people -- coincidentally, roughly the same number of posters as we have here on GCA. ;)
I won't repeat my previous arguments on this thread about the potential viability of this project. But I'd suggest it didn't take a genius to think building a golf course on sandy soil and beautiful terrain on cliffs overlooking the Pacific Ocean might work. Keiser's genius wasn't the site selection; it was his ability to stitch Bandon together, working with skeptical locals and wary environmental officials, and he had the luxury of time (i.e., money) to do so.
In many respects, I'm guessing he has even fewer hurdles to overcome in building a golf course(s) in Adams County on this land. But that's not really the issue, is it? Nor is it the quality of course that could be built up there; heck, give R.J and I some topo maps and a few months, and we could probably come up with something passable (Doak 4? 8))
But your view that there is a large group of golfers out there parsing the difference among Erin Hills (a public U.S. Open course, by the way, of which there is exactly one in the Midwest), Whistling Straits (a public Ryder Cup course, of which there is exactly one in the Midwest) and Rome/Pine Valley -- and choosing the latter over the other two -- is one I'm skeptical of.
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Welcome Brian, and thanks for the pictures.
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Frankly, to continue on my pessimistic bent, consider that Sentry World with all its purdy flowerbeds and long time reputation as a road trip for regional golfers to go see it, is in the process of nearly a complete remodel. Their customer base has dried up from apparently having seen it once or twice and now yawn at the prospect of driving to play there. Why? And, I'd even go further and say that of the regional market of folk looking for a day or weekend trip to go play somewhere nice, a huge number of said people, if given the choice of going to play a Tom Doak masterpiece in the pine barrens, or go where they have them purdy flowers, would go to Sentry World.
While I certainly think there is reason to be skeptical, if executed correctly the sheep will go to the Doak 8 in the middle of nowhere, because the publications and word of mouth will tell them to go tot he Doak 8 in the middle of nowhere. I have only taken part of this site for 4 - 5 months, however I have studied golf courses for over 2/3rds of my 38 years on Earth, and I've lived in Northern Illinois my whole life. I barely knew Lawsiona existed before this site, but I KNEW Bandon was a once in a lifetime experience since it's inception. Maybe because I bought the hype, maybe because everyone who went there reported it was golfing heaven, but I knew it was different (without this site) and even different than Kohler, which I somewhat enjoy.
It does have to be great, and it does have to be reasonable (defined as slightly less than Kohler) to succeed, IMO, but if it's great, it will. Magazine/Digest/Week will tell us all we need to go, and if it's great we'll all report back.
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Great pictures and if there are courses built here that are top notch, I have no doubts people will come.
I wonder if there are any homes for sale next to that property and how much they are going for, time to do a little research.
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Phil,
I know quite a few (many) golfers that drive over to Wisconsin to play the Kohler courses and Erin Hills. If (better?) courses were built by world class architects a couple hours closer, I'm guessing most would go there instead. Even average golfers know Bandon Dunes now...if you tell most Midwest golfers that the same team is doing a Wisconsin version, they would jump all over it. Of course that's just my opinion.
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I don't know about this "it'll never work out there" mentality. Certainly, some remote courses have failed. Sometimes a bad idea, often poor execution, and sometimes just bad timing.
But, I remember being in AZ many moons ago when everyone thought Lyle Anderson was crazy for hiring Jack Nicklaus and spending all that money to develop Desert Mountain way out there in the boonies.
The he was crazy for doing the same at Superstition Mountain.
Wonder how many thought Dick Youngscap was smart for building a course far out in the middle of nowhere.
Same with so many other developments. Conventional wisdom says it's crazy to build something so far away. But, the world is shrinking in that travel is easier then ever, and, AND, these remote courses are built on land perfect for golf so the construction and maintenance costs are nothing compared to building on flat mud near a population base.
Doing something great is going against convention.
Lastly, I've been in the golf business a long time, and there is one myth I'd like to dispel, and that is a long season means more net revenue. What you want is a busy season, and a season with no expenses. Everyone thinks southern courses are more profitable because they have a long season, but what they have is year round expenses and their highest expense months (summer) often are their lowest revenue months (Thinking SW US). Open when busy and closed when slow is better then paying a lot for upkeep when you have few golfers playing on discounted rates.
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Don,
Agree on the long season not being more profitable.
MN and WI have many, many weekend resorts (think Giants Ridge, Fortune Bay, Black Bear, Big Fish, all of Brainerd, etc.) that do all right. The participation rate and demographics are great for golf up there, and the golf buddy trip is alive and well. In some cases, the recession only helps places like that - to save a little money and still play golf, the northern golfers skips FL or Myrtle Beach in favor of closer in summer trips.
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Jeff and Don,
I agree with what you both said about the seasonal nature of golf, but the sidebar to that [which you both know but didn't mention] is that a shorter season makes a much longer payback time on infrastructure. "Just a golf course" can operate pretty effectively in a short-season environment, but if you've gotta build a lodging component, it costs the same to build as a full 12-month operation but you don't make nearly as much in a given year to pay it off. That requires caution against building any more facility than you really need. Dick Youngscap understood that part better than any other developer I've met.
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When I was building the golf course up the road, I stayed at a variety of motels, none better than the motel 6. It was good enough for then 25 year old me.......why not the patrons of this new resort? LOL. And some really decent, but not fancy corner bars serving way too big dinners. Fond memories up there, and those dusty hotels......
But, the rustic cabins would sure work up in those Northwoods, and you could build them 3-4 at a time as the demand went up.
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You're welcome guys, glad you like the pictures.
Welcome to GCA Brian. Do you live in Rapids or Point, or other? Where do you play most of your golf?
I'm in Rapids. Officially on my handicap my home course is The Ridges. It has some fun risk reward holes bringing ponds and a creek into play and then there are some bad holes with forced layups. It has pretty flat boring greens, not much interesting going on there. I haven't played there much this year though, they had a lot of winter kill on the greens that never really recovered and at the same time raised their rate, a bad combination.
I like Bull's Eye, they are private but they are offering tee times to non-members now so I have been there about a half dozen times a year the last couple years. It has a fair amount of elevation change with a nice mix of uphill and downhill holes. The greens also have a lot of contour to them and are fast. To score well you have to know where to hit it to stay below the hole.
I hit the Lake Arrowhead courses about 8-10 times a year. Not as much elevation change as the proposed new property but still some interesting holes in a mostly natural sandy setting. There are houses around but they aren't too much of an eye sore as they are tucked into the trees. It is annoying that if you do get into the trees OB is usually nearby. I like the Pines course the best. You guys did a pretty good job with it Jeff, although now that I know about this land just south of it I wish it was built there!
I'm not much of a fan of Sentry. Way overpriced and not much fun to play. Too many forced layups and to me natural settings are more beautiful than a flower garden. I'd take Lake Arrowhead any day over this and it is half the price. Don't know about the changes they are making. I heard they are putting in new tee boxes, maybe that will help with some of the forced layups but I'm not counting on it.
That's about it for this area. There's a couple 9 hole courses good for a quick golf fix but not all that interesting from a design perspective. I venture out into the 50 mile radius area about 5-10 times a year with a different mix of golf course and about twice a year go beyond that.
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Brian, if you want to drive about 65 miles and I'll do same, I'll be glad to meet you at Lawsonia for a hit. ;D It is as good as I've ever seen it this fall, and the price is right after 1Pm when they start their twilight. I didn't get enough of it last week with GCAer, Pete Pittock. Bring a friend.
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I'd love to go play Lawsonia but with the long drive I'm not sure if I can fit it into my schedule right now. I only have weekends off with my regular job and I'm going to be pretty busy over the next 3 weeks with my side job which is creating 3D digital models of golf courses for a golf simulator company.
By the way, if there is any interest in having this course design digitally created as viewable/playable on a computer or simulator, before or after it is created for real, let me know. I'm willing to work for future free/discounted golf instead of getting paid in this case. ;D Actually I'm willing to help in almost any way to help make this happen. I use LiDAR data to import elevations very accurately and can easily create a 3D model of the land. I can go out and take more pictures or video of things too. Those with connections let me know if there is anything I can do to help.
I honestly don't know the business side well enough to know if it will work in this area or not. My opinion on it doesn't count as I'm pretty biased. Obviously I hope it is successful but from my perspective I'd rather have it built and fail then never built at all. I guess it's easy to say that when it's not your money. :) Just the chance to see a world class golf course created by the likes of Tom Doak or C&C almost in your backyard is pretty exciting let alone getting the chance to play it.
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http://www.jsonline.com/blogs/sports/227229941.html?ipad=y
Here is an article on the project, now called "Sand Valley". Mr Doak and C&C to design two courses. With 1500 acres they will have room for 5 courses.
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http://www.jsonline.com/blogs/sports/227229941.html?ipad=y
Here is an article on the project, now called "Sand Valley". Mr Doak and C&C to design two courses. With 1500 acres they will have room for 5 courses.
Thanks for the link, Pat. Interesting. Sand Valley is also the name of GCAer Tony Ristola's project in Poland that has been discussed a bit here on GCA.
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Sand Valley was the working name for Pacific Dunes, for a while. It's Mike's fallback name when he has yet to come up with something better -- a combination of Sand Hills and Pine Valley.
And despite the last post, I haven't been hired yet, and don't know whether I will be.
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Sand Valley was the working name for Pacific Dunes, for a while. It's Mike's fallback name when he has yet to come up with something better -- a combination of Sand Hills and Pine Valley.
I liked this comment on the Journal Sentinel story:
Mr Fairway - Oct 10 at 10:37 AM
While I think it would be cool to have high-end courses like Keiser builds in central Wisconsin, he has to find a better name than Sand Valley, which makes it sound like it's one big bunker. Even Red Pine or Plum Creek would be better.
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I like the sound of Red Pine. Combo of Dismal Red and Pine Valley?
Way better than Dismal Valley, at any rate....
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They could call it Streamsong North with a Red course and a Pine course. ;D
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Wow - great photos. Looks to be nearly ideal land.
Wisconsin Rapids is less than 250 miles from the 3rd, 16th, and 39th largest metro areas in the country (Chicago, Mpls./StP, and Milwaukee, respectively). Madison and Green Bay are 2 middle size markets that are even closer.
There are more than enough golfers in those metros to make this successful.
Remember, people thought Tommy Bartlett was crazy when he started water ski shows in the Wisconsin Dells.
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I liked this comment on the Journal Sentinel story:
Mr Fairway - Oct 10 at 10:37 AM
While I think it would be cool to have high-end courses like Keiser builds in central Wisconsin, he has to find a better name than Sand Valley, which makes it sound like it's one big bunker. Even Red Pine or Plum Creek would be better.
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I like the sound of Red Pine. Combo of Dismal Red and Pine Valley?
Way better than Dismal Valley, at any rate....
I'm going with this combo: "Badger Dunes."
(insert smiley face emoticon)
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Wow - great photos. Looks to be nearly ideal land.
Wisconsin Rapids is less than 250 miles from the 3rd, 16th, and 39th largest metro areas in the country (Chicago, Mpls./StP, and Milwaukee, respectively). Madison and Green Bay are 2 middle size markets that are even closer.
There are more than enough golfers in those metros to make this successful.
Remember, people thought Tommy Bartlett was crazy when he started water ski shows in the Wisconsin Dells.
Morgan,
My sentiments exactly. I don't see how this won't be a success. It's just a matter of whether it's a modest success or a home run IMO. Either way it's a win-win for midwestern golfers used to teeing it up on clay...
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midwestern golfers used to teeing it up on clay ???
Do they all live in Carolina like me? The midwest has dense, loamy and nutrient rich soils with certain areas having sand from glaciers and pre-historic lakes. Not a lot of clay in the midwest.
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I was actually at this meeting that the jsonline article talks about. From what Mike Keiser said, he seemed extremely optimistic that this project would be a success, commenting that even his friends that told him Bandon would never be a success were sold on the project. Even though the articles says the meeting was for potential investors, Keiser said that they already had plenty of investors and the talk was more about just explaining what he expected this new project to be like. They also showed some pictures of what they expected the course to look like, and I cant even imagine that this project would not be a success. It seems to be creating quite a buzz among Wisconsin golfers, and I am sure that plenty of people will be making the trip up there when it opens.
Tim
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I, for one am very excited about this project. And can attest that the buzz in Wisconsin is growing. You would be surprised at how many golfers from the upper Midwest have already made the trek to Bandon, and they have spread the word. It is truly a great time to be a golfer living in Wisconsin.
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I feel uncomfortable mentioning any negatives about this idea, in the face of all the positive blue sky talk. So, don't get me wrong... I am thrilled with the notion that a world class golf developer might bring his formula to our corner of the market and probably employ some of the best architects or our time to design something here.
Far be it from me to say that something like this isn't a slam dunk in the face of all the talent and experience Kaiser will bring. But, being a contrary SOB, I guess I still think of some aspects of the WI market that I think I "might" have a sense about. Really, I am not saying I have 'any' real expertise; just been around here a while.
So, I'm thinking about what one poster says above about nearby Green Bay/Fox Valley metro golfers supporting this, and the Madison market. What little I know, it just seems to me that by comparison, my guess is not 50 golfers a year from this Green Bay market and maybe 100 from the metro area play one round at Whistling Straits if paying rack rates. There may be a few more that go on some corp's dime and that may be no distinction to the Kohler operations as far as who rings the register. But, even with corp freebies and such, I can't imagine this area sends 300 paying rounds to WS and not 500 rounds to both Straits and BWR courses. Then, consider how many golfers travel to Erin Hills to tee it up even once a year... and again, not that many, which is opinion not backed up by any facts I know for sure.
Now just project that out to Milwaukee and Minneapolis and how many will pay rack rates to go even one and done to the Kohler or EH courses. Throw in some other mid-high end offerings like The Bull (Nicklaus) and golf architecture fan favorite Lawsonia Links, along with belt notch seekers who get invites to the likes of Milwaukee CC or Blue Mounds, and I just don't see these immediate metro areas contributing more than a thousand basically one and done rounds to visit Adams County version of Pine Valley. Particularly if the rack rate for golfers is $150+. So the next tier is; what does the Twin Cities and Chi town contribute? Then throw in the 'rest-of-the-world' like Bandon and Cabot seem to have to rely upon...? And, what sort of facilities have to be built to lodge the denizens it will require to support even 15,000 rounds a year?
It seems to me that it will take an extraordinary developer to pull this off and absorb the costs to build it out on some sort of long term vision basis. There is little question that Mr. Kaiser fits the bill. So, I hope he will bring the magic. ;D 8)
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Jeez,
Based on that analysis everyone whose not a muni should just plow their courses under and plant potatoes. If they can get every high end golfer in Chicago to make the trip twice a decade that alone would probably cover their nut. It's obviously a hit or miss endeavor. If they can create enough of a buzz, there's more than enough flush warm bodies to pack the tee sheets. If not then they probably didn't execute things the way they anticipated. It obviously hinges on these not being simply another high priced couple of course but something really special and unique to the region.
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:-X
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I think it is important to note that normally Keiser looks for three things when developing courses, sand, water, and good architecture. Of course this will be the first project which he has developed that is missing the water. This would help to explain why he was skeptical of taking on the project at first. I personally think that the project will be successful, but will admit that it is definitely a pretty big risk considering that it is the first project that has ventured from his formula which has proved successful time and time again.
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Off of Twitter from an hour ago:
Robert Thompson @Going4theGreen
Just off the phone w/ @BandonDunesGolf's Mike Keiser who tells me Tom Doak and Coore/Crenshaw will design his 36 hole project in Wisconsin.
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Looks like Matt Ginella today talked with Keiser about the Wisconsin project. Matt tweeted about the discussion:
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On Bandon owner Mike Keiser's project in Wisconsin, Keiser's still in process of acquiring land, but very likely it happens...
He'll start with 1 course, but Keiser believes it takes at least 2 courses to make a destination, & his business formula is: 1+1=3...
So who builds No. 1? It's Doak or Coore/Crenshaw. And No. 1 will depend on schedule/availability. With C&C at Cabot, Doak likely to get nod.
If Doak gets No. 1, if and when it makes sense to build No. 2, then all things being equal, it's Coore/Crenshaw.
Look for a first course & a modest clubhouse, but given the suitable options in the area, Keiser will hold off on any lodging. For now.
Keiser's successful formula has always featured remote locations, minimalist architects & water. (He won't have water in Wisconsin.)
Keiser told me the land reminds him of Pine Valley. He wants to build "a PV for the public."
https://twitter.com/mattginellagc (https://twitter.com/mattginellagc)
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I think Mike DeVries deserves a shot.
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Cannot wait for these courses to be built. We need some solid new courses in the Midwest
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Look for a first course & a modest clubhouse, but given the suitable options in the area, Keiser will hold off on any lodging. For now.
I really, really hope this happens.
What are the suitable option in the area? Isn't this still a hike from the Dells?
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Between Lake Arrowhead rentals and WI Rapids hotels, there is a fair amount of lodging in the immediate area.
WI Dells is an hour drive, but an easy day trip, and so much lodging.
Stevens Point isn't too far with plenty of lodging too.
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Looks like Matt Ginella today talked with Keiser about the Wisconsin project. Matt tweeted about the discussion:
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On Bandon owner Mike Keiser's project in Wisconsin, Keiser's still in process of acquiring land, but very likely it happens...
He'll start with 1 course, but Keiser believes it takes at least 2 courses to make a destination, & his business formula is: 1+1=3...
So who builds No. 1? It's Doak or Coore/Crenshaw. And No. 1 will depend on schedule/availability. With C&C at Cabot, Doak likely to get nod.
If Doak gets No. 1, if and when it makes sense to build No. 2, then all things being equal, it's Coore/Crenshaw.
Look for a first course & a modest clubhouse, but given the suitable options in the area, Keiser will hold off on any lodging. For now.
Keiser's successful formula has always featured remote locations, minimalist architects & water. (He won't have water in Wisconsin.)
Keiser told me the land reminds him of Pine Valley. He wants to build "a PV for the public."
https://twitter.com/mattginellagc (https://twitter.com/mattginellagc)
C&C at Cabot and Doak at Forest Dunes, perhaps this is further down the road than we think?
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Keiser told me the land reminds him of Pine Valley. He wants to build "a PV for the public."
Picture the headline on GCA (or the Onion):
"Doak designs course with 153 slope. Upper middle class hackers across the heartland commit Hara-Kari with dusty 3-iron."
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I can't wait to hear who is on the starting lineups of the construction teams. ;D 8)
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Between Lake Arrowhead rentals and WI Rapids hotels, there is a fair amount of lodging in the immediate area.
WI Dells is an hour drive, but an easy day trip, and so much lodging.
Stevens Point isn't too far with plenty of lodging too.
Ryan:
I've looked for two years for decent lodging in Stevens Point; let me know when you find it. ;) (Hilltop has good burgers, though...)
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Looks like Matt Ginella today talked with Keiser about the Wisconsin project. Matt tweeted about the discussion:
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On Bandon owner Mike Keiser's project in Wisconsin, Keiser's still in process of acquiring land, but very likely it happens...
He'll start with 1 course, but Keiser believes it takes at least 2 courses to make a destination, & his business formula is: 1+1=3...
So who builds No. 1? It's Doak or Coore/Crenshaw. And No. 1 will depend on schedule/availability. With C&C at Cabot, Doak likely to get nod.
If Doak gets No. 1, if and when it makes sense to build No. 2, then all things being equal, it's Coore/Crenshaw.
Look for a first course & a modest clubhouse, but given the suitable options in the area, Keiser will hold off on any lodging. For now.
Keiser's successful formula has always featured remote locations, minimalist architects & water. (He won't have water in Wisconsin.)
Keiser told me the land reminds him of Pine Valley. He wants to build "a PV for the public."
https://twitter.com/mattginellagc (https://twitter.com/mattginellagc)
C&C at Cabot and Doak at Forest Dunes, perhaps this is further down the road than we think?
Can't the architect firms work on more than one project at a time?
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Certainly shuttling between Forest Dunes and this project wouldn't be that difficult as long as he's got enough good associates to go around. In fact it might be the easiest commute Tom's had in a while.
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the data from Bandon's success does point to year round golf in a low maintenance fashion as successful
however, closing down a business can be better than running it when it is costly to keep the doors open.
the data from Bandon no doubt also confirms the passion of the golfer from Minnesota and Wisconsin not to mention Chicago
the Sand Valley courses could end up being the best golf courses within 200 miles of Minneapolis, "can you say road trip" 8)
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Between Lake Arrowhead rentals and WI Rapids hotels, there is a fair amount of lodging in the immediate area.
WI Dells is an hour drive, but an easy day trip, and so much lodging.
Stevens Point isn't too far with plenty of lodging too.
Ryan:
I've looked for two years for decent lodging in Stevens Point; let me know when you find it. Wink (Hilltop has good burgers, though...)
I spent 6 months in Stevens Point (Sentryworld) this year and there is not much for high end lodging. I would say the Holiday Inn is the best hotel in town. The Holiday Inn has plenty of rooms as it has a convention center with it. There might be some other lodging south of Point in Plover. BTW, the best dive bar in Point is Papa Joe's.
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An update from the Milwaukee paper, with a not-so-thinly veiled reference to this very thread midway through the story, and details on pricing and opening:
http://www.jsonline.com/sports/golf/golf-course-visionary-plans-resort-near-wisconsin-rapids-b99145788z1-232685361.html
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Phil - Thanks for posting.
Interesting to see that David McLay Kidd is in the architect mix.
All the decisions about this project seem so smart.
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This is going to be, as Mr. Trump might put it, HUGE.
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"It would make Wisconsin the best summertime place for golf in the world," Keiser said.
Ah...I'm sure it will be good...but best in the world is a nice goal.
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In the law, such statements are called "puffing". Mike is a great salesman and quite the puffer. Hyperbole or not, it will be great. I've spoken with Keiser and Josh Lesnik and I've seen the photos. Awesome potential.
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Sorry if this was already posted, but here is yet another article on this exciting (for me) development.
http://www.jsonline.com/sports/golf/golf-course-visionary-plans-resort-near-wisconsin-rapids-b99145788z1-232685361.html
Being from the Midwest, I would definitely take the short flight from Cincinnati or Dayton to Milwaukee for a destination trip. I just discovered so much good public golf is not that far from me up in Wisconsin, and this would make it that much better.
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This begs to question... With a 36 + hole complex in Wisconsin Rapids, Whistling Straits, Blackwolf Run, Erin Hills, Lawsonia Links, The Bull at Pinehurst Farms, Big Fish, Wild Rock, University Ridge, Troy Burne and Sentry World. Has Wisconsin moved itself into the top 5 best places to go for public golf? What states are better?
Steve Blake
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Matty G tweeted this morning:
@MattGinellaGC: BREAKING (in world of courses & resorts): Bill Coore & Ben Crenshaw will build 1st course for Mike Keiser in Nekoosa, Wisc. #SandValley
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I'm sure we'll soon find out which crew members will work the ground. Some of them are interchangeable with Renaissance crew, I think. I know I would love to go visit during construction to watch the art work go forward, if invited. ;D 8)
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This begs to question... With a 36 + hole complex in Wisconsin Rapids, Whistling Straits, Blackwolf Run, Erin Hills, Lawsonia Links, The Bull at Pinehurst Farms, Big Fish, Wild Rock, University Ridge, Troy Burne and Sentry World. Has Wisconsin moved itself into the top 5 best places to go for public golf? What states are better?
Steve Blake
Great question, and I think you are correct. California and Oregon are probably better than Wi. But after that it's a tough call...
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That is both great and disappointing news! Great in that C&C are fantastic architects and it will be a gift to have one of their courses both so near by and also public. Disappointing in that I would of liked to have Tom Doak get the first course. Oh well, hopefully he's on tap for #2 in a few years.
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This begs to question... With a 36 + hole complex in Wisconsin Rapids, Whistling Straits, Blackwolf Run, Erin Hills, Lawsonia Links, The Bull at Pinehurst Farms, Big Fish, Wild Rock, University Ridge, Troy Burne and Sentry World. Has Wisconsin moved itself into the top 5 best places to go for public golf? What states are better?
Steve Blake
Depends on the time of year :) In summer/fall though, I would say Wisconsin is pretty tough to beat.
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Sort of a new course- the Craig Haltom work at Lac La Belle looks very interesting. I grew up playing the prior version a fair amount and it was very swampy and a mosquito haven. But the bones were good and the history of the place is really strong. One of the oldest clubs and the first 3 presidents were Alex Smith, Robert Simpson, and Willie Anderson.
My understanding is that he tried to restore the original/ historic 9 holes and rerouted the other 9 using additional land to avoid the areas that have always struggled with drainage.
It's probably a bit of a passion play, so I hope that they are successful.
(https://clubatlaclabelle.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/10/cll-golf-gallery-0480.jpg)
(https://clubatlaclabelle.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/10/cll-golf-gallery-0727.jpg)
(https://clubatlaclabelle.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/10/cll-golf-gallery-0396.jpg)
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Before or after the 2020 Midwest Mashie, I am giving a lot of thought to trip to WI. It looks like you have identified the best options.
I live in VA, not getting any younger and will never have another excuse-reason to do it.
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Before or after the 2020 Midwest Mashie, I am giving a lot of thought to trip to WI. It looks like you have identified the best options.
I live in VA, not getting any younger and will never have another excuse-reason to do it.
We will presumably be working in Wisconsin right then, shaping some of the last few holes of our course after grassing what we could get done before the first of September. Not a bad time to visit if you want to see a construction site!
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Before or after the 2020 Midwest Mashie, I am giving a lot of thought to trip to WI. It looks like you have identified the best options.
I live in VA, not getting any younger and will never have another excuse-reason to do it.
We will presumably be working in Wisconsin right then, shaping some of the last few holes of our course after grassing what we could get done before the first of September. Not a bad time to visit if you want to see a construction site!
If you remember back January 2006, I saw one at the Bay of Dreams.
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We will presumably be working in Wisconsin right then, shaping some of the last few holes of our course after grassing what we could get done before the first of September. Not a bad time to visit if you want to see a construction site!
If you remember back January 2006, I saw one at the Bay of Dreams.
Yes, I remembered that very well, but my invitation was not meant to be solely to you ;)