Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture Discussion Group => Topic started by: Bill Brightly on April 23, 2013, 01:54:28 PM
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So I suggested Bandon Dunes as possible destination to my travel-crazy wife... and these two responses came up first when she researched it on Yahoo Trip Advisor. She read them out loud to a group of couples, and it really was pretty funny. I think these comments are fairly representative of US golfers who only like soft, cushy parkland courses!
http://travel.yahoo.com/p-travelguide-7010249-bandon_dunes_golf_resort_bandon-i
(printed below)
Cured!
By A Yahoo! Contributor, 8/27/10
Maybe your passion for golf is getting in the way of the rest of your life? Wife, family, job - all suffering from your lack of attention? I recommend a few days on the golf courses at Bandon Dunes. Play all four courses now - no cheating. Start with Pacific Dunes for your baptism in 30 - 50 mph winds. Fun, eh? Then maybe to the Bandon Dunes course for more wind and just to confirm that all the greens here are going to be ridiculously big and the surfaces too hard to handle anything but a putter from 50 yards in. On the most benign of mornings you might actually enjoy Old McDonald except for e-i-e-i-o those last four holes designed to remind you that this resort prides itself on bringing its guests to their knees. But on your last day, for your last round, be sure to walk Ben Crenshaw's unputtable, unplayable Bandon Trails. Ben, et. al., pride themselves on not moving much dirt to build this course. Hint: buy some shovels, boys, and start with the greens. These greens are so huge, hard and hilly that getting down in two when you finally do get the ball to stay on the "putting" surface is a world-class achievement. Rumor has it that Ben himself has yet to part #14. Nice vistas? You bet - above average grandeur! But this is hardly golf, no matter how Scottish-this or Irish-that you want to pretend it is. So, if you're a single-digit handicapper who enjoys shooting in the 90s and you love windburn and chap lips, make the jumbled up reservations that are required to reach this place (considering the convoluted travel arrangements required to get here, it's easier to get to Scotland or Ireland). Otherwise, consider this medicinal, an effective cure for your addiction to the game. I'm taking two weeks off, then I'm going to quit.
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Overrated
By Latham, 10/14/09
Given the quality of the greens and fairways, Bandon Dunes is highly overrated and not worth $220 per round. I stayed 2 nights in mid Oct and played three days with rounds on Bandon Dunes, Pacific Dunes and Old McDonald (10 hole preview) and was very disappointed. The greens were all hard, sandy and bare. The fairways were thin and dry. I learned from our caddie that they mow the fairways once a week which tells you the grass doesn't grow very well. If you appreciate well maintained courses you will be disappointed. I played Pine Valley two weeks ago and can tell you there is no comparison. Bandon seems to be resting on their laurels and my guess is things are catching up with them as it was not very busy and there were lots of open tee times. With so many other great options around the country, given the difficulty in getting there and the poor condition of the courses, I would go elsewhere. I will not be back any time soon.
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I think I played through that guy on my last trip out there. He was the one limping due to the blisters on his feet...because he had never actually walked 4 consecutive rounds in his life.
Lots of people call themselves "golfers"...pretenders like the folks who wrote those "reviews" above reveal themselves as "ugly Americans". You see them occassionally in the UK as well. They don't really understand golf (give me green and lush playing conditions!, no wind...and a golf cart!). I hope the one dude above was serious in his statement that he would take 2 weeks off and quit. Everyone is better served in that outcome.
I will look forward to my future trips to places like Oregon, Nova Scotia and the UK.
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hahahaha
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I have never played at Bandon but if it is harder than PV, which I have played it would surprise me. Still, the comments about the condition shows how difficult it is for people used to American style golf to see beyond the colour to the appreciate the playing surfaces.
Jon
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Lots of people call themselves "golfers"...pretenders like the folks who wrote those "reviews" above reveal themselves as "ugly Americans". You see them occassionally in the UK as well. They don't really understand golf (give me green and lush playing conditions!, no wind...and a golf cart!). I hope the one dude above was serious in his statement that he would take 2 weeks off and quit. Everyone is better served in that outcome.
I will look forward to my future trips to places like Oregon, Nova Scotia and the UK.
Obviously there is a large cross-section of golfers to whom Bandon would not appeal, but I don't know that saying they're not "golfers" is accurate.
I love the point that Bandon can't compare to Pine Valley. If PV is your benchmark, prepare for disappointment!
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JL,
Exactly. It takes a particular personality type to want to play a seaside course exposed to frequent 20-30mph winds, much less to enjoy it while it's happening. It's like saying someone who stays home when it's raining isn't a "real golfer" because they don't enjoy dressing up in half a thousand bucks worth of GoreTex and slogging through standing water and mud for four miles.
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Well, it's not for everybody, that's for sure. I have a smattering of retail golfer friends who just didn't like it. Some because of the wind, some because of the wacky big greens, some because of the remoteness and some because of the lack of carts. It is not a resort that tries to appeal to everybody. I have one friend whose experience actually surprised me. He's around 68, but has been an athlete his whole life. In great shape. Has a lot of game. He's a member at Shoreacres, the Raynor gem north of Chicago and still walks pretty much every round with a caddie. He know and likes Mike Keiser, who is also a Shoreacres member. He knows good golf. But he positively hated his experience at Bandon Dunes because of the excessive wind and the grueling nature of the walk in the wind. I disagree, but I understand where he's coming from.
All of the negatives that I mentioned that I have heard from others are, sometimes perversely, positive attributes to me. To me, they whittle away the population of people that have ruined Pebble Beach on occasions for me. Don't get me wrong I love Pebble and the resort, but I would like it a lot better if it had some of the so-called "negatives" of Bandon Dunes.
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All of the negatives that I mentioned that I have heard from others are, sometimes perversely, positive attributes to me
Agreed. The only possible negatives to me are getting there and if you happen to catch a full week of 30+ mph winds mid summer. The fact that Bandon makes no excuses for what it is and separates the men from the boys is one of the things that makes it so special.
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Thanks, Bill -
What's interesting to me is that the rant came from someone who could write: "Hint: buy some shovels, boys, and start with the greens", which, I have to admit, is the pithiest put-down of minimalism I've ever read. An articulate -- and actually nuanced -- rant, which as rants go is pretty rare.
Peter
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Thanks, Bill -
What's interesting to me is that the rant came from someone who could write: "Hint: buy some shovels, boys, and start with the greens", which, I have to admit, is the pithiest put-down of minimalism I've ever read. An articulate -- and actually nuanced -- rant, which as rants go is pretty rare.
Peter
First, we'll kill all the Redans!
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Ha, ha - good one, TL!
Then we'll cut the Long down to size!! I mean, that mo-fo won't know what hit it -- it'll make the Short look like Wilt effing Chamberlain!
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I particularly like the complaints about the huge greens and the playing surface. Perhaps one should be required to lurk here for 6 months before playing...
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One thing that I have found is that the minority who do not care for Bandon really don't like it all. Most golfers love/like it to varying degrees, and few are indifferent.
I'm always hesitant to invite golfers who express reservations about the wind, the rain, etc. They may end up hating it, and that can bring the whole group down.
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"This place is nothing like the links courses we have in Arizona"
"As longs as Pebble Beach is around, this place will never get a US Open"
"These are the worst rakes I've ever seen in my life"
Quotes from fellow that was paired with us one time there on Pacific Dunes.
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No surprise at all. There are plenty of Americans who don't enjoy golf across the pond. These guys fit into that crowd.
But, wow anyone complaining Pacific Dunes isn't like golf in Arizona really takes the cake.
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"This place is nothing like the links courses we have in Arizona"
"As longs as Pebble Beach is around, this place will never get a US Open"
"These are the worst rakes I've ever seen in my life"
Quotes from fellow that was paired with us one time there on Pacific Dunes.
I'm sorry, but they are the worst rakes ever. If you are taller than say 5' 2" they require you adjust your posture enough that the old man gut is going to break your back. Moral of the story. Avoid hitting into bunkers if you haven't hired a caddy. Heck, avoid hitting into bunkers anyway.
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Sounds like the golfers I know and love. All golfers are the product of their experience. If they see something new, something requiring a different approach to the game they know, it sucks. The estimates of folks on this site about how many golfers fall into this category are way too low when it involves American golfers. Unless properly introduced to links golf, ninety-some percent hate it. I know several who think Bandon is the worst piece of crap that they have ever played.
My advice for newbies: take a caddie, tell him on the first tee that you don’t care what you shoot, tell him you want him to teach you the clubs and shots you need, play the shots, and have fun. If you must have a game with your pals, match play only.
Embrace the weather as part of the fun. When we used to float the Middle Fork of the Salmon River as often as we could, and someone was wet, cold, and miserable, we’d shrug: “So, you didn’t spend enough on your gear?”
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Gee, I love the big bowl of root vegetables with the Fred Flintstone shank of meat after an energetic day of walking on the big bluff. The beds are comfortable, and I usually sleep like a baby.
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Some of the complaints are ridiculous. For example, why complain about the lack of carts and the lack of things to do in Bandon town--these are known or should be known prior to arrival. The people who complain about the food or beds are pampered babies--the food is fine, well above average, and, like John K, I've never had any trouble sleeping at Bandon.
Bandon is expensive, especially if you're not taking advantage of the replay rate. Of course, I don't know why you would go to Bandon and not play 36 holes as much as possible.
I can understand the weather complaints, to a degree. I've played at Bandon in heavy rain for the majority of two consecutive days and that's not fun. And the summer wind can be brutal, necessiting a change of mindset into survival mode. Not everyone would want to take a chance on the variable Bandon weather and risk having a challenging experience on their vacation or once a year (or more) golf trip with their friends. I can appreciate that. For me, the quality of the golf makes that risk worth taking, but not everyone will agree.
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Why must everyone who visits like it?
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I really think this site has no idea about how so many view golf design. It's similar to music. The majority of the music lovers I know enjoy classic rock or country etc but could care less for classical music. The average golfer is the same way. And in many cases the average country club member is the same. They equate perfect conditions etc with good design. My personal take on Bandon is that it has done a great job of introducing the average golfer to this type of golf and more like it than dislike it.
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My first trip in 2010 was mixed. The rough conditions and the tough walk are nothing like the Mid Atlantic USA. I will go back in February of 2014.
I now know what to expect.
I will walk 18 at least once a week and wear out the elliptical at the gym months ahead of time.
Taking all 14 clubs may not be the answer either.
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Grant - I'm with you. I play 95% of my golf on links courses, most of my guests love the experience and really embrace the challenge but not everyone gets it. I understand and respect their view. Some people love rose wine and cannot stand red or drink red but not white, all humans are different. Some golfers say revetted bunkers are too severe and the punishment disproportionate yet love a green with a lake biting into the edges. Life would be very boring if we all liked the same things.
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Not for the first time in my life I realise there is a touch of the sadist in me. I love playing golf with the architecturally ignorant. Four hours with me and they'll either appreciate what they've been taught and we'll part company as friends or they'll be furious with my continually patronising them. ;D
It's ultimately their ego which decides the outcome.
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Neither side is right or wrong.
That is wrong.
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Neither side is right or wrong.
That is wrong.
I think their wrong, but does that make me right?
Yep. ;D
But seriously, there's a difference between not liking something and not being capable of understanding it. I've never been to Bandon but am fairly sure that most of the naysayers, with exceptions such as the example given by Terry Lavin, fall into the latter category.
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Correct me if I am wrong but isn't part of the issue that some large population centres in the US have rather homogenous golf experiences?
If you live in London or Melbourne, for example, you are likely to play a wide range of courses in a wide range of conditions throughout the various seasons.
You might not get that in some US cities. If you only have parkland courses that are kept soft all year, then playing bandon or scottish links are going to be very foreign and often unsuited to the way you play golf.
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Neither side is right or wrong.
That is wrong.
I think their wrong, but does that make me right?
Yes, but your grammar isn't... 8)
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You might not get that in some US cities. If you only have parkland courses that are kept soft all year, then playing bandon or scottish links are going to be very foreign and often unsuited to the way you play golf.
Not just hackers, either. A young fellow I know made the trip over to England a few years back to play in the Amateur Championship. It was his first and only exposure to links turf. Although he was a very accomplished junior and collegiate player 100% of his experience was on softer, mostly warm-climate grasses. He got to the UK with time for just two practice rounds before the competition.
He did not play horribly but said he just could not make the ball react the way he expected off that unfamiliar turf. That made it particuarly difficult to control his ball flight in the wind but even chipping and putting was just "off" a bit all week. Missed making the match play by several strokes.
I don't when if ever he'll go back and I'm not sure he'd particularly relish Bandon. His entire life is focused on competing and preparing for competition in a certain type of conditions. He said if he ever were going to play another event on a links course he'd have to go over there at least 3-4 weeks ahead of time just to learn how to adapt his swing and his short game to the turf.
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And even Tom Watson was left confused after his first ever trip to these shores. Fortunately he was a humble enough man to recognise he might still have a lot to learn and the rest of course is history.
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David Elvins,
Having lived and worked in quite a few US cities, I would basically agree with you.
Not many Americans have seen a place like Bandon.
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I played with an individual that was going to the Oregon Coast on his honeymoon and was looking to play golf. I bragged about Bandon and recommended he consider it. I saw him the next summer and asked him if he had stopped there. His face gave a disappointing expression and proceeded to tell me how difficult it was for him "trying to stop a ball on a basketball court". It is not everyone's cup of tea. For many many people, the wind, rain, lower temperatures, tight lies, difficult bunkering, firm and fast conditions, fescue grass, remote location and lack of carts are just too much from the pristine conditions that we tend to play on in the US.
My wife, a non-golfer who is very supportive of my trips to Bandon, had a similar reaction the first time she walked the courses with me. The look of a links golf course is shocking to many the first time around. Her perspective has changed somewhat as she has come to understand what I love about links golf. She really enjoys walking the courses with me and she has been a real trouper in some conditions many avid golfers wouldn't leave the house in.
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I can recall a time in Minnesota when the vast majority of golfers really did get their clubs out of the closet around Memorial Day, and put them away after Labor Day. It's not that way anymore. There are still fair-weather golfers, of course, but those I know and play with love the game too much to let cold, wind or even rain keep them from playing. As overall participation in golf declines, the hard core seems to grow. The hard core took to Bandon instantly, but every now and then one of those Memorial Day to Labor Day types will give it a try and regret leaving their comfort zone.
The golf industry might be able to check its slide if resorts like Bandon can win over some of those fair-weather players.
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These comments seam very familar for me. As you would be suprised how many people vist St.Andrews and complain about the wind or the lack of golf carts. I without fail on the weeks that I work The Old always ask why they can't have a golf cart. When they are more than capable of walking. I think it all comes down to two views of the game of golf. One is more tradtional with the heart and soul of the game held above all else. These players Mike Keiser calls retail golfers. People who will go out of their way and pay good money to have a great golf experiance and they understand what makes it special. In any other industry this cohort would be refered to as
connoisseurs. People who's experiances and knowlege guide them towards the more adventurous and nuanced experiances. The other is where the social aspect of the game is king. These are the individuals that are out to hang out with friends or family they could be playing on a dirt patch in the back of a field and still have a great time. They are not looking to be challenged all their looking for is the time to socialize and relax. These two categories are not mutually exclusive. But on the whole I belive they fit most of the rounds played on the golf courses that I have worked at or been to. Some resorts cater to both some are more focused on golf whichcan make them less attractive to the second group. But still leaving them in a more than valid postion in the market place. Some resorts like Disney have golf but from my play there and the images I have seen since is have pla fall more in the catagory suited to the second group.
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I am very unlikely ever to have the opportunitty to visit Bandon, but these attitudes are very familiar to me.
Within an hour I can drive to Hoylake, Birkdale, Royal Lytham, Formby, Wallasey, and a couple of dozen other top class links courses. Almost anywhere in Scotland is less than four hours away. Yet where do most of my golfing friends choose for their trips?
Spain, Portugal or Turkey!
The allure of lush greens and fairways, manicured surroundings, and guaranteed sun is greater for many than that of classic f & f golf. 40 guys from our club have just paid over a thousand pounds a head for four rounds of golf in Turkey interspersed with 3 days getting completely rat-arsed.
I'm the one left feeling somewhat perverse for preferring the idea of several trips to Southport...
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Ben,
With respect, I think your conflation of walking the "heart and soul of the game" is dodgy. Hopefully this comment won't make me a pariah around here but I feel no affinity whatsoever for "the game" in terms of the touchy-feely stuff like "heart and soul". I always walk to play golf purely because I enjoy walking when I play and do not enjoy playing the game from a cart. No mystical or sentimental element to it at all. Just a preference like enjoying a steak but saying no to a tofu burger.
I personally think an able-bodied golfer who chooses to play all of their golf from a golf cart is missing out on a real treat. Likewise I think anyone who'd rather play a lush, overwatered course with waterfalls and flowerbeds instead of going to Bandon is REALLY missing out on a treat. But it doesn't mean they lack some quasi-religious connection with "the game". It just means they prefer looking at flowers to hitting a 5-iron off crisp links turf (and then watching it bound over the green, never to be seen again).
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Over the last few weeks the weather turned here and I have gotten out a few times. The first time out after four and a half months off (except for nine in January) left me struggling to hit good shots on the back nine because I did not have my legs under me yet. But after playing four times I'm back in shape and ready to go 27 tomorrow.
However, if one is a cart baller then one must make a concerted effort to get in shape to enjoy walking three days in a row. And if one is spending a good dollar to walk and one is physically unprepared to do so then I could see feeling ripped off by not having a cart.
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For a few years, I've been planning a trip to Bandon to celebrate some of my buddies' life milestones (50th / 60th birthdays). We are going forward in 2014.
Earlier this year, one of my other friends came up to me out-of-the-blue and said "we have got to get out to this place call Bandon Resort. I saw an article in Golf Digest and it's the best place in the US." So I told him about the planned trip and he said "add me to the list." Now this guy's a decent golfer and went to Pinehurst with me, so he gets my "architecture obsession," but I was surprised that he even knew about Bandon.
Inspired (or warned) by the messages on this thread, I decided to have "the conversation" yesterday during post-round drinks.
Me: "You are aware what you're getting into when we go to Bandon, right?"
Him: "What do you mean?"
Me: "It's a different type of golf. Wind and firm conditions. You hit a 6-iron next to the pin, it's bouncing off."
Him: "OK..."
Me: "...and it's walking only.."
Him: "WHAT!!??"
Me: "You looked at the pictures, but didn't actually read the article, did you?"
Him: "Wait, walking 18-36 a day for 4 straight days?"
Me: "Well, you can get a caddy for the week. Plus, these courses are routed well, so you don't have ridiculous walks between greens & tees." (These assurances did not seem to help).
I think my trip just got a little smaller.
But I'm not sure he's the exception to the rule. I think some guys see a great rating for a course (or collection of courses) and really don't look deeper than the rating and the gorgeous pics. You set up that level of expectation with the Bandon price tag, and I think you can expect some of the reviews like we saw at the beginning of this thread.
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I can certainly understand Bandon not being everyone's cup of tea; but anyone who goes there who doesn't know that it's walking only, links golf/turf, wind, rain, etc. deserves what they get IMO. That's like saying "I innocently ordered the ghost pepper hot wings and I spent the next 24 hours on the toilet". Duh...
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I can certainly understand Bandon not being everyone's cup of tea; but anyone who goes there who doesn't know that it's walking only, links golf/turf, wind, rain, etc. deserves what they get IMO. That's like saying "I innocently ordered the ghost pepper hot wings and I spent the next 24 hours on the toilet". Duh...
Amen! Speaking of the toilet...be sure to bring some Golden Bond for chap-ass!
In my 5 months of caddying, I never, I repeat never, had a client who was disappointed with the pure golfing experience. I like to think I am a good caddie who, over the course of a few rounds, can actually teach my player(s) a bit about how to play certain shots in said f&f windy links conditions if they need it (having been a PGA Apprentice for many years prior helps). But, I give much more credit to the quality of the course and resort and, to the golfers themselves for their self-enjoyment. I remain a bit shocked by the poor reviews but guarantee they represent the VAST minority of golfers who make the journey.
Cheers