Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture Discussion Group => Topic started by: Dan Kelly on March 26, 2013, 12:55:38 PM
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Mark Amundson has been hoping to post some pictures of the new Graham Marsh course at Sutton Bay (Agar, South Dakota), but had some trouble with uncooperative technology. So here they are, with Mark's (minimalist!) captions. He'll chime in later with further info on what we're seeing.
Oh, hell! I can't make my Photobucket pictures show up here, either.
You can see the Sutton Bay pictures (fingers crossed) here: http://s175.photobucket.com/user/kellys17_photos/library/New%20course%20at%20Sutton%20Bay?page=1 (http://s175.photobucket.com/user/kellys17_photos/library/New%20course%20at%20Sutton%20Bay?page=1)
Later ... Just testing now. EUREKA!
Hole #1 from landing area, Hole #8 green in background, #1 & #8 greens make up a double green complex:
(http://i175.photobucket.com/albums/w132/kellys17_photos/New%20course%20at%20Sutton%20Bay/suttonbay1_zps01a424f6.jpg?t=1364308262)
#2 green from elevated landing area, prairie view in background:
(http://i175.photobucket.com/albums/w132/kellys17_photos/New%20course%20at%20Sutton%20Bay/suttonbay2_zps62c0ac7c.jpg?t=1364307983)
Hole #4, driveable par 4:
(http://i175.photobucket.com/albums/w132/kellys17_photos/New%20course%20at%20Sutton%20Bay/suttonbay4_zps735972d9.jpg?t=1364307974)
Hole #7 green complex, long par 3:
(http://i175.photobucket.com/albums/w132/kellys17_photos/New%20course%20at%20Sutton%20Bay/suttonbay7_zps9a74b503.jpg?t=1364308152)
Hole #8, par 5, from 2nd landing area [Editor's note: near the 2nd landing area -- or does Mark really know our games?]:
(http://i175.photobucket.com/albums/w132/kellys17_photos/New%20course%20at%20Sutton%20Bay/suttonbay8_zps1021fefc.jpg?t=1364307956)
Hole #11, driveable par 4, 30-40 ft elevation fall from tee to green:
(http://i175.photobucket.com/albums/w132/kellys17_photos/New%20course%20at%20Sutton%20Bay/suttonbay11_zps0a4ea81c.jpg?t=1364308186)
Hole #13, 220 yard par 3, plays downhill, clubhouse in the distance:
(http://i175.photobucket.com/albums/w132/kellys17_photos/New%20course%20at%20Sutton%20Bay/suttonbay13_zps322a583a.jpg?t=1364307928)
Hole #17, par 3, 170 yards from back tees, plays to tip of plateau, near 18 tees of old course:
(http://i175.photobucket.com/albums/w132/kellys17_photos/New%20course%20at%20Sutton%20Bay/suttonbay17_zps13f059fc.jpg?t=1364307909)
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(http://i175.photobucket.com/albums/w132/kellys17_photos/New%20course%20at%20Sutton%20Bay/suttonbay17_zps13f059fc.jpg)
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very nice photographs, from what can be seen it should make maost on here happy.
Looks very much up our alley so to speak, what us the current condition of the other course, or when you say "new" is this the new version of the old one?
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Of course, I'd love to see this in person, and can't just make proclamations from photos.... but;
If I am understanding this correctly, much of the land that the new course loop is sited upon, was relatively flat. I am guessing that much of the contour of lovely ground features, is manufactured. If that is the case (with the caveat that I'm saying this from just looking at pictures) it 'appears' spectacularly done. ;D
It appears that the contours are very natural and sand hills in character. The little noses and poofs and such look very much like something further south in the real sand hills country. The bunker styles look amazing. If I'm not mistaken, the actual land where this is sited has its fair share of rocks and boulders and thus, this must be quite an earth moving project. But, I may be completely wrong, and will wait for what Mark says.
But, is Kevin's post above with no commentary and just a photo of that plateau or pennisula green sitenear where the old 18th tee was, and more importantly-near where the 17th green sloughed-off, a suggestion that it may be subject to more breaking? I have to imagine that the developers really did in-depth soil and analysis of the new siting, that they did not observe any evidence of soil cracking or failure, this time.
Whether you are right on the old edge of the slopes looking down into the river basin, or slightly back, inland, the views are still grand, and combined with great golf design (that I am confident Graham Marsh has created) it sure seems like a place to go play and enjoy.
Good Luck!
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Looks interesting! I hope to get there this summer, and compare it to the "old."
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Just look at this: are we in the Dakotas or the Hebrides???
(http://i175.photobucket.com/albums/w132/kellys17_photos/New%20course%20at%20Sutton%20Bay/suttonbay8_zps1021fefc.jpg?t=1364307956)
Beautiful.
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Just look at this: are we in the Dakotas or the Hebrides???
(http://i175.photobucket.com/albums/w132/kellys17_photos/New%20course%20at%20Sutton%20Bay/suttonbay8_zps1021fefc.jpg?t=1364307956)
Beautiful.
Yes, it is.
It's not the easiest place to get to -- but it's well worth the trip.
To verify that it's beautiful not just in Mark's carefully chosen pictures, but all of the time, I invite you to check these out -- taken during half a dozen visits, over seven years:
http://s175.photobucket.com/user/kellys17_photos/library/Sutton%20Bay%202003%20to%202009?page=1 (http://s175.photobucket.com/user/kellys17_photos/library/Sutton%20Bay%202003%20to%202009?page=1)
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Those are some nice pictures. That 17th hole must be stunning - I guessed as much from the aerial maps that show the course partially constructed.
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(http://i175.photobucket.com/albums/w132/kellys17_photos/New%20course%20at%20Sutton%20Bay/suttonbay17_zps13f059fc.jpg)
All looks very nice, good credible shaping, and stunning views obviously.
Hole 17 is almost a reversed version of Calamity....
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Dan and Mark,
Thank's for publishing these pictures. It looks really good. The bunkering with the ruffled top edges looks wild and fitting for the site. You can only see a little of the strategy, but it sure looks like bunker placement has been set to the line of play to encourage choice, and with that usually comes risk.
Someday, I need to get there. A second course enhances the reason.
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Gentlemen:
I would first like to thank Dan for his technical help. I am close to hopeless when it comes to some of these things, THANKS DAN!
The new golf course was constructed on a site that had only 1-2 feet of fall across the top of the plateau so the front nine has been shaped and all shapes you see were designed and planned. The back nine has more natural elevation change to it, thus on hole #11 for example, that 30-40 ft fall is natural. All of the shapes in the fairways and greens were designed and all the bunkers were shaped and designed. Contrary to the original course, which was inundated with rocks, there were very rocks on the plateau which made things much easier. A great deal of care was taken to control all of the water and thus there are many drainage pits on the course and the water is directed off the course, either to the east or over the edge of the ridge down to the old course in pipes so no erosion takes place. Soil borings were done and we are confident the course was built in good soils and will stay where it belongs. Graham has done a wonderful job of designing a course that is very walkable for those who choose to do that, one that offers many options and many strategies which will take a round or two to appreciate, and a set of greens that are always fun to put and will drive you nuts if you do not understand where to go. As I have said before, if you are interested in coming out this summer just drop me an email or give me a call and we can figure out a time that works.
Mark
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Mark --
The overall "look" of the new course, in these pictures, makes it an obvious sibling to the original course (R.I.P.).
Did Mr. Marsh reproduce, in whole or in part, the look and strategy of any of the holes on the original course?
I thought there were several unique (and excellent) holes on the original Sutton Bay: No. 2, No. 5, No. 6, No. 8, No. 9, No. 11, No. 16 -- to name those that stood out as most distinctive among the 17 (of 18) holes I liked. (Never grew to like No. 1.)
Will any of the new holes put me in mind of those?
Dan
P.S. If many of the greens out there resemble No. 2's, I can't wait! As I said here in my first review of Sutton Bay, 10 years ago, I thought the greens were the best of the good parts of the course. Send me some green pictures, and I'll post them -- unless, by then, I've forgotten how!
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Is anyone building a course in north Dakota oil boom country? There is money to be had up there.
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I was lucky enough to visit Sutton Bay last summer and Mark was a wonderful host. We played the original course and
went fishing, which was fantastic. The chef cooked up our walleye to perfection. It was also my good fortune to meet Graham
and he took me on a tour of the new course. I think it will be a stunner, and wait until you see pictures of the closing
hole. It runs right along the cliff with the beautiful water view. SB is not to be missed if you ever have the chance to get out there.
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Is anyone building a course in north Dakota oil boom country? There is money to be had up thete.
John:
I don't believe so. I played the North Dakota golf trail last summer and there was no talk of anything new. Two of the three courses we played were very busy, but it was the 4th of July weekend, so they should have been. The Links of North Dakota, which is closest to the oil fields, was still not that busy. They said not many of the workers came out to play ... most of them would work two- or three-week stints of 7 days a week and then go home for a spell.
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Wow! Excellent job Mr. Marsh! I hope to make a Dakota golf swing later this summer and can't wait to see SB.
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Looks fantastic to me. Now I have to return to try it out. Nice job and congrats to Graham, Mark and Bill. I'll bet there is less protection from the wind on top of the plateau now.
Lester
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Lester, thanks, I do think it will be enjoyed by those who come to play and I would look forward to having you visit again. The wind does not affect the new course any more than the old course other than when it blows out of the east. The old course was somewhat protected from that wind direction because of the mesa. Because there is not has much elevation change the dispersion factor of the shots hit on the new course is less and thus people can get around with many less lost balls, sometimes even play 18 with one ball! As you are well aware, you cannot design a course that is wide enough for the shots of some people on some days :D.
Dan, Graham did not intentionally try to "replicate" any of the holes from the old course. What he did retain was the "out and back" feature on the front nine of the new course that was found on the original 18. The greens have a great more movement in them on the new course when compared to the original course. The reason for this is that the new course was built on a much more level piece of ground when compared to the "tilt" found on the original course. I will see what other pictures I may have of the greens and send them to you to post, given you are a wizard at that ;)
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Is anyone building a course in north Dakota oil boom country? There is money to be had up thete.
John:
I don't believe so. I played the North Dakota golf trail last summer and there was no talk of anything new. Two of the three courses we played were very busy, but it was the 4th of July weekend, so they should have been. The Links of North Dakota, which is closest to the oil fields, was still not that busy. They said not many of the workers came out to play ... most of them would work two- or three-week stints of 7 days a week and then go home for a spell.
Here's an advertising piece for the Lewis & Clark Golf Trail for anyone interested:
http://www.lewisandclarkgolftrail.com/LinkClick.aspx?fileticket=Ju4VybepDxg=&tabid=38
GCA.com makes a cameo.
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I asked for more green pictures.
Mark Amundson sent me more green pictures:
Hole #3 green (double green with #6):
(http://i175.photobucket.com/albums/w132/kellys17_photos/sbgreen1_zps3b46a649.jpg)
#4 green from behind:
(http://i175.photobucket.com/albums/w132/kellys17_photos/sbgreen2_zps5f214615.jpg)
#5 green from behind:
(http://i175.photobucket.com/albums/w132/kellys17_photos/sbgreen3_zps1c791d03.jpg)
#9 green from behind:
(http://i175.photobucket.com/albums/w132/kellys17_photos/sbgreen4_zps67ddc714.jpg)
# 18 green from behind:
(http://i175.photobucket.com/albums/w132/kellys17_photos/sbgreen5_zps1cd65e47.jpg)
Cyber-fingers crossed...
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Dan/Mark - whose photos are these? They're either done by a pro or a supremely gifted amateur!
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My guess would be Lambrecht or Dost?
Lester
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I don't know the answer to your question, and no offense intended to any professional photographers, but it's hard to take bad pictures at Sutton Bay.
See what a couple of rank amateurs (Dick Daley for the first bunch, me for all of the rest) did out there, with absolutely-nothing-special cameras, while playing the golf course and not searching for the best photographic angles:
http://s175.photobucket.com/user/kellys17_photos/library/Sutton%20Bay%202003%20to%202009?page=1 (http://s175.photobucket.com/user/kellys17_photos/library/Sutton%20Bay%202003%20to%202009?page=1)
And I think those greens look like a blast to play.
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How do you get to Sutton Bay? Looks wonderful.....
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All of the pictures that have been posted were taken by Gary Kellner from Dimpledrock Photography, www.dimpledrock.com. Gary is a very kind person and a very skilled photographer. I will have him out a number of times in the next three years to capture things are they mature.
Once again, thanks to Dan and his tech people that helped get these latest photos uploaded!
Phillip, the question of how you get to Sutton Bay is a legitimate one. We are 45 miles north of Pierre, SD and if you are flying from somewhere in the US you can get to Pierre via Minneapolis or Denver, 4 times each day on small 19 passenger twin engine planes flown by Great Lakes Aviation. If you are driving we are 75 miles north of I-90 in the middle of South Dakota. Some say it is next to nowhere and you can see nowhere from here, we prefer to think we are right where we want to be, on the plains of South Dakota, where the winds blow, the sun shines, and there is virtually not a sound to be heard. It is one of the most peaceful places I have ever experienced in my life, and we golf, hunt, fish, drink good wine, eat good food, and breathe in clean air. I am not sure where you are Phillip but this is a good place.
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Some say it is next to nowhere and you can see nowhere from here, we prefer to think we are right where we want to be, on the plains of South Dakota, where the winds blow, the sun shines, and there is virtually not a sound to be heard. It is one of the most peaceful places I have ever experienced in my life, and we golf, hunt, fish, drink good wine, eat good food, and breathe in clean air. I am not sure where you are Phillip but this is a good place.
Well said, Mark.
How can you not like a place where there are more pheasants than people?
It's a great place -- right on the edge of the Great American West.
On the chance that you're a driver, Philip, and not a flyer: Sutton Bay is a pleasant, six-hour (or so) drive from Minneapolis-St. Paul. But slow down and keep your eyes peeled for deer, if you're in South Dakota at dusk!
One other thing I've got to warn you about: The drive away from Sutton Bay is no fun at all.
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So many courses, so little time . . . .
Looks spectacular. Thanks for sharing.
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So many courses, so little time . . . .
Looks spectacular. Thanks for sharing.
This does look spectacular! I am thinking that I am going to have to come and visit. One of the perks of moving to Colorado is that there is a lot that is with driving or flying distance, if you are willing to make the effort.
PS. I may have missed it, but when are they expecting it to be open? It looks beautiful!
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Is anyone building a course in north Dakota oil boom country? There is money to be had up there.
John, the only ND course on the "radar" would be a new Minot Country Club, as the old was beaten up by the summer of '11 flood. The old Minot CC course, however, is going to re-open as a semi-public. The newly proposed course had Jim Engh as the designer, but as of late, I think it has been shelved for reasons I don't know enough about to discuss.
Mark A. won't remember me, but when I was fortunate enough to play SB he was a wonder person to talk to. I will make it down there this summer for sure. For me, it's a short 2.5 hour drive.
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Looks to me that the new Sutton Bay will retain much of the feel and visual charm of the old course, while being even more linksy and natural. Quite a feat. Congratulations, Mark.
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I am infering that the original course at Sutton Bay has been retired? I saw a post that used the words "RIP". Is that a total misread of some posts here? The new course looks alluring, are there now 36 holes to play?
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Mark, the course looks wonderful. Hope to see it some day. Definitely on my radar. Dave
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Can't wait to make the 5 hour drive to Agar this Summer....if it ever comes to MN this year!
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I am infering that the original course at Sutton Bay has been retired? I saw a post that used the words "RIP". Is that a total misread of some posts here? The new course looks alluring, are there now 36 holes to play?
Charlie,
The old course is no longer in existence, you can see the deterioration in the most current Google Earth imagery as it returns to nature.
TK
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Tyler,
Once again for the uneducated, can you or someone else elaborate as to why a relatively new golf course has gone to pasture and been replaced (if that is what happened)? Wasn't the original course at Sutton Bay concieved and built in the last decade? Didn't it achieve critical acclaim?
Thank's for your anticipated response.
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Charlie, As I understand it, In that region there's a naturally occurring shift of top soil known as The Missouri Breaks. The original course was literally sliding into the lake (part of Missouri river system), causing dangerous fissures in the ground. It likely wreaked havoc with the irrigation system, too.
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Adam,
Thanks for the illumination.
I assume the soil profile is glacial till. Is there a particular reason it is unstable that you know of?
Sad to hear the original course suffered such an expensive fate. What a bummer for the members.
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Charlie, Apparently, Missouri breaks has different meanings. Regardless, the sedimentary nature of the top soil is well know for the shifting. While the river has several influences to it's origins, it's the silty sediments that are likely the biggest reason.
Hopefully our resident geologist will chime in.
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I'm not the resident geologist; nor am I an expert on Sutton Bay. But I do know this:
After many years of light snow-pack upriver in Montana, the water level at Lake Oahe (the Missouri River reservoir on which Sutton Bay sits) was, the most recent time I was there, in 2009 or 2010, some 50 feet (?) below the level when the course was built.
When the water gets drawn out of the soil, it erodes, crumbles, subsides. Fairways collapse and disappear (left side of No. 6 was the first casualty, if I remember right, followed by long cracks on the uphill side of No. 15). Greens lose their low side (No. 7 green -- a beauty -- kept losing its left side). Irrigation lines get ripped apart. Keeping the golf course playable gets very, very expensive.
You can see the problems here: http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,49202.0.html (http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,49202.0.html)
I hope Mark Amundson will correct me, if I've made any mistakes here.
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Charlie et al:
The geology of the Missouri basin is one of glacial till and a great deal of shale. The original course was built in the land between Lake Oahe and the mesa where the new course now sits. Lake Oahe is 240 miles long, 1-2 miles wide and 125 ft deep in places. The lake is the Missouri River dammed up and thus was created in 1960. The level of the lake fluctuates dramatically based on the snow pack in Montana and the amount of spring rain that feeds it. Over the 10 years Sutton Bay has been in existence the lake level has increased and decreased as much as 55 ft in a year 3 different times. This fluctuation has a huge impact on the stability of unstable soils. That, along with our watering of the course, caused the ancient fault lines in the land to shift and rendered the course unplayable and unfixable. What happened to the land in the 10 years has surprised, to say the least, even the most knowledgeable geological engineers. The land on the top of the mesa has a completely different soil profile than the original course and we have done a great deal of evaluation and soil borings to try and make sure things are different this time. That is the short version by a non-expert! Hope that helps and hope you can make it out to see the new course and have a look at things that happened on the original course.
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Dan Kelly must have the largest treasure trove of photos of the original SB on the planet! :o Good memories...
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I will have the pleasure of playing Sutton Bay next week, on the return from Duluth's Mashie. I understand Golfweek just had a raters weekend there and thought I should bring this old thread for posting.
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Hi Pete,
Played there 13 years ago on the original course..
Good people.
Please report back if you would.
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Pete,
Enjoy the course, they have it in the best shape it's ever been in, and they've made a couple changes (grass bunkers at 1 and 6, new tees at 2 and 17, reworked bunker at 17) that are helping. I'd still advocate altering 9 green, but otherwise they've worked out the kinks.
Absolutely great people there. Mark Amundsen's spirit lives on, God bless him.
And if you get the chance, stay for a meal at the clubhouse. The chefs have been great this year and everyone ought to experience the pheasant quesadilla at least once.
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Sutton Bay is awesome. Made one overnight stop there on the way out to Montana. The entire club is terrific and (while I never played the original course) really enjoyed the golf.