Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture Discussion Group => Topic started by: Ran Morrissett on January 21, 2013, 01:58:00 PM
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Understanding how good golf course design principles spread is a rewarding though never ending pursuit. As you learn more about how it emanated from the United Kingdom and became disseminated around the world, what you might have initially thought was a 100 piece puzzle morphs into a 500 piece puzzle that turns into a 1000 pieces, etc. This amplification is many faceted and includes history, social migration and technology.
Certainly, it is easy to understand why golf took root on the eastern seaboard of North America. This was the epicenter of commerce, politics and wealth in the new world and a magnet for immigrants including an army of Scottish golf pros who helped the transition of golf across the pond. As the game developed the flow of people was both ways, the British invasion (Ross, Colt, Alison, Fowler, Park, Findlay, etc.) a coterie of diligent Americans seeking greater knowledge (Macdonald, Tillinghast, Wilson, Crump, Fownes, etc.). However, the Southwest of the United States is yet another 2,000 miles from golf’s birthplace – and no golfer cared about that region in the days prior to irrigation. So, how did the best traditions of the game come to the desert?
Fortuitously, the answer lies with a man born in Westchester County who came of age at the dawn of the Golden Age of Architecture. Red Lawrence was that man and he was tutored by William Flynn during the creation of some of Toomey & Flynn’s finest designs. After spending the first 75 years (!) of his life on the east coast, and becoming a founder of the ASGCA in 1947, Lawrence settled in Arizona in 1958. He built his cornerstone design several years later at Desert Forest.
With a background fortified by the Golden Age design philosophies, this pioneer transferred the best virtues of traditional golf to a remote, seemingly inhospitable part of the country. Walking prevails at Desert Forest as does the understanding that golf at its essence is a ground game sport. Lawrence discovered, carefully preserved and then utilized the undulations of the desert floor for his composition. Holes bend and dogleg around the desert floor exploiting its natural features to create interest and strategy. There isn’t a single artificial fairway bunker and you’ll appreciate why that would be superfluous when you experience the rolls among the ninth, sixteenth and eighteenth fairways.
My favorite attributes of Flynn’s work are everywhere at Desert Forest. The course is well-routed, something that few architects have a talent for. The low profile tees, paucity of dirt moved tee to green, and the push-up greens with broad slopes that make sense with their surrounds smack of Flynn’s influence. Furthermore, the course was built economically without contrivance to hinder one’s enjoyment of the surrounds and rests peacefully upon the (irrigated) landscape. Plus, it plays like a Flynn course in that it doesn’t reveal all its secrets at once. At Desert Forest the driver isn’t automatic because of the beguiling manner in which Lawrence draped the fairways over the land and bent the playing corridors. I love that! Too many modern courses allow the golfer to pound driver after driver. For me that’s a design flaw as it enables the golfer to get in a rhythm. Pete Dye harps about taking the golfer out of his comfort zone and requiring the player to think because then he’s dead. Desert Forest is such a thinking man’s course.
Given that every living human drives it past me these days :-[, I get killed on a “bombs-away course” and much prefer the likes of Desert Forest where you feel as though you are engaged in a chess match with the architect. In this respect, Desert Forest reminds me of Merion (Flynn’s 1930 opus as opposed to 2013 US Open Merion). Most tees require debate about which club to hit à la Merion and how to execute the challenge. Imprudent or rash tactics can lead to your undoing on any single hole but the thinking man can tack his way gracefully around the course. I have a 13 degree Tour Edge and a 15 degree deep face George Izett that I rotate in and out of my bag. They are PERFECT for Desert Forest as I can miss them straight. Apply such clubs properly and you gain the warm satisfaction of managing your game prudently. The lousy gorilla golfer gets away with any and everything at many courses >:( these days but not at Desert Forest. The integration of high desert florae into a sophisticated design guarantees that the merits of placement outweigh brute strength.
(http://sandhillsinsider.com/DFcover.JPG)
Do you want to risk a draw around the corner to the left or be content with a 3 wood straight ahead at the 5th? The choice is yours but choose wisely. The canted right to left green is a factor to consider.
The term ‘old fashioned’ holds only positive connotations for me. You don’t associate old fashioned in connection with the Southwest (save a saloon or two ;)) but Desert Forest has an unmistakable venerable charm. Based on photographs I’ve seen and threads within this Discussion Group, there might be ~15 courses in Arizona with grander views, deeper canyons, longer cart paths, greater drama from elevation changes, etc. yet I doubt that a single one has better golf. The Desert Forest members embrace golf as a walking sport and have maintained my favorite approach to golf, which is to say ‘less is more.’ Plenty of clubs in Arizona with their 50,000 square foot clubhouses opt for an opulent ‘more is more’ approach. How pathetic to see that brand :P now being exported from America versus the classic forms that were imported to America from the United Kingdom during Lawrence’s formative years.
Fortunately for all, Red Lawrence understood what good golf was about. Growing old at Desert Forest would be a pleasure as a veteran could still make a fine showing against his limber grandkids. My plan was always to retire here in Southern Pines but now I am not so sure. Both the course and the club’s ethos are right up my alley.
Cheers,
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Ran,
Well done!
Desert Forest, as a course and as a club, is top notch. I've played there a few times and, now that I'm full time in sunny Arizona, play Lawrence's other courses here in the Phoenix area- Wigwam Red and the Maricopa County muni now known as Tres Rios. As an easterner from Philly, I enjoy the change of pace from the usual desert fare, not that's there is anything wrong with many of the courses here.
However, you forgot to mention my birdie on 7!!!
I like your comments about making the golfer think on the tee as to club selection. Of course, at my advancing age, even from the forward men's tees, I don't have that problem. :)
I enjoyed the day and meeting you up close and personal.
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Thanks, Ran. I'm very excited to see this course one day. But, for now, it is great to read about it.
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Wow I can see why Dan Moore joined, just a shame I'll miss out on a game there next month.
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My favorite course in the desert! Thanks so much Ran.
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Ran, that was lyrical. You are getting really good at this. I remember back 6 or 8 years ago and being really happy when I found a few pictures about some course I read about in a moldy Darwin book. Now we get beautiful images and poetry. I mean no disrespect, quite the opposite, but the quality of your work is exposing the rest of us hanging around in the treehouse as voyeurs hitching a ride on a boxcar. Quit your day job and just photograph and write and about golf courses. Oh yeah, that doesn’t work. Thanks, anyway.
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I would make reference to Brad Klein's book on the history of he club. May be he can tell you all how to get a copy? it is worth it.
I have played there three times now and am totally in love with the course.
Brad I
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Brad I...
Would you mind briefly talking about what you love so much about it? LIke I said, I'm keen to play it and I'd love to hear your thoughts.
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Terrific 19th hole as well.....
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I was interested to look through these photos to see if they would change my mind in terms of the comments I've made over the years that I found Desert Forest to be way too narrow given the "reload" or "unplayable" penalty that the golfer often faces with golf balls in the desert out there. I had heard that the native areas had been thinned and just generally that the course is wider than I gave it credit for.
I'm going with no.
I'm sure that its a wonderful place for those that "miss it straight," as I think Ran mentioned. For those of that miss it crooked, its a long day. Perhaps the course just does not fit my game, but I'm not familiar with a great course that's this narrow with this much penalty for missing fairways. I'm sure with more plays that I'd learn more nuances of how to find "wider" sections of fairway and to hit different clubs off the tee, but even with a lot to like (the natural aspects, walkable routing, the 7th hole, the club atmosphere) I think the penal nature of the desert is something the course can't overcome if you're comparing it to the greats. Perhaps that's why I think We-Ko-Pa Saguaro is so far ahead of the field in the Phoenix metro area.
On the plus side, I would still tell any of you to see it if you get the opportunity. Its probably the most unique course in the area and as far as my experience its pretty unique period. Its something students of architecture should see, even if its "not my type."
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Wow I can see why Dan Moore joined, just a shame I'll miss out on a game there next month.
Mark, while our schedules do not look like they will overlap I will be happy to set you up. Given thats its currently 5 derees F or 27 degrees below freezing in Chicago (-15c) I'm very happy about a 5 day visit next week.
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Dan that is very kind of you. I'm turning down games left, right and centre as its a holiday and not a golf trip. I'm not even taking clubs and will "only" play Whisper Rock a couple of times and Cypress Point during the trip. -27 that's cold, we've -1 and 6 inches of snow and it's like Armageddon!
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I was interested to look through these photos to see if they would change my mind in terms of the comments I've made over the years that I found Desert Forest to be way too narrow given the "reload" or "unplayable" penalty that the golfer often faces with golf balls in the desert out there. I had heard that the native areas had been thinned and just generally that the course is wider than I gave it credit for.
I'm going with no.
I'm sure that its a wonderful place for those that "miss it straight," as I think Ran mentioned. For those of that miss it crooked, its a long day. Perhaps the course just does not fit my game, but I'm not familiar with a great course that's this narrow with this much penalty for missing fairways. I'm sure with more plays that I'd learn more nuances of how to find "wider" sections of fairway and to hit different clubs off the tee, but even with a lot to like (the natural aspects, walkable routing, the 7th hole, the club atmosphere) I think the penal nature of the desert is something the course can't overcome if you're comparing it to the greats. Perhaps that's why I think We-Ko-Pa Saguaro is so far ahead of the field in the Phoenix metro area.
On the plus side, I would still tell any of you to see it if you get the opportunity. Its probably the most unique course in the area and as far as my experience its pretty unique period. Its something students of architecture should see, even if its "not my type."
Funny you say that. I don't get any sense of the course from the pix other than it looks to be a tight course. What do others think?
Ciao
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I'm curious to see what draws people to Desert Forest. Is it that this course stands out because it is a really good desert course, and there are so few of those? Or is it because DF is actually a really good course? I have never been there so I can only base any opinion on information on this site or word of mouth from others. Based on what I have heard in the past from people is that DF is just a standout desert design and not a course that would warrant attention otherwise...
Curious to see what others think...
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Chris,
I do find desert golf to be a bit different from playing anywhere else. Even though I moved to the southwest, I don't play as much as I used to in Indiana. The prices are necessarily higher because of the water usage needed to keep the courses alive, and the desert always makes recovery options dicey. Balls tend to run through the desert until they find a cold dark place to hide--even when the vegetation is sparse balls disappear at times. Also most of the high-end courses in Scottsdale are residential in nature and also are tough walks. I like Desert Highlands and Desert Mountain Renegade and Outlaw more than Desert Forest personally because they are still generally interesting from a design standpoint with more room to miss it and find it. None of them are easy.
Sean,
I've played other courses where the fairways are of similar width to Desert Forest--the corridors are still on the narrow side in spots and the holes that dog-leg seemed to make those holes feel narrower than their actual width. I would guess those are the ones where members throttle back a bit. The distinction at Desert Forest from other narrow courses is that balls that miss the fairway are going to be tough to find and tougher to play even if its just to hack out into the fairway.
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The prices are necessarily higher because of the water usage needed to keep the courses alive, and the desert always makes recovery options dicey.
Balls tend to run through the desert until they find a cold dark place to hide--even when the vegetation is sparse balls disappear at times. Also most of the high-end courses in Scottsdale are residential in nature and also are tough walks. I like Desert Highlands and Desert Mountain Renegade and Outlaw more than Desert Forest personally because they are still generally interesting from a design standpoint with more room to miss it and find it. None of them are easy. [
The distinction at Desert Forest from other narrow courses is that balls that miss the fairway are going to be tough to find and tougher to play even if its just to hack out into the fairway.
Andy, Dicey? Dicey is what you should aspire to, if you value recovery as a major component to being a sportsman, accentuating the enjoyable/fun factor.
Are you implying DF is a tough walk? And, what does generally interesting mean? DF is more than generally interesting. It's fascinating. In no way does DF play as narrow as it feels, (or looks from aerial) unless all you are trying to do is hit as far as possible. It's truthfully one of the most tactfully designed courses built, in any environ.
The difference is much more than how the desert plays. It's often how, and where, you missed the fairway at DF that makes it fascinating. It's the grounds undulations that deflect and can cause the ball to find the desert. Those same undulations test shot making capabilities on one's next. Few, if any desert course feature these core principles, in such abundance.
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Ran,
After playing a good number of courses in the area, when I played Desert Forest, it was like stepping back in time, away from all the glitz that's found at most of the modern courses. When I first played it, I was taken back but what many would consider a minimalist approach. It was an enormous departure from the other courses which relied heavily on visual distractions, vis a vis elevated tees.
I too found the ribbons of fairway "tight".
As to your comment about giving pause to the "gorilla", like Pine Valley, the penalty for errant drives is considerable.
Hence, discretion is the better part of valor.
But, you...... thinking ? That's a conflict in terminology isn't it ?
Travis, who presented wide fairways, thought the penalty for missing them should be severe.
Lawrence, perhaps accounting for the dry conditions and thiner air, compressed the fairways to ribbons running along the desert terrain, hence accuracy is rewarded and inaccuracy severely penalized.
That area of Arizona is almost climate controlled, but, it does get hot in the summer.
What's the elevation at Desert Forest ?
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Pat,
I don't know the elevation but generally speaking the North Scottsdale/Carefree area is anywhere from 10*- 20* cooler than downtown Phoenix in the summer.
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Pat,
I don't know the elevation but generally speaking the North Scottsdale/Carefree area is anywhere from 10*- 20* cooler than downtown Phoenix in the summer.
Steve,
I noticed it last May, elevation certainly impacts temperature, even at Desert Mountain.
Have you played the "Outlaw" course yet.
If not, do so before they begin overseeding and ruining it next year.
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Elevation at the clubhouse is roughly 2,450 if my free iPhone app is to be believed. The 13th green and 14th tee are the high points on the property - about 125' to 150' higher.
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The prices are necessarily higher because of the water usage needed to keep the courses alive, and the desert always makes recovery options dicey.
Balls tend to run through the desert until they find a cold dark place to hide--even when the vegetation is sparse balls disappear at times. Also most of the high-end courses in Scottsdale are residential in nature and also are tough walks. I like Desert Highlands and Desert Mountain Renegade and Outlaw more than Desert Forest personally because they are still generally interesting from a design standpoint with more room to miss it and find it. None of them are easy. [
The distinction at Desert Forest from other narrow courses is that balls that miss the fairway are going to be tough to find and tougher to play even if its just to hack out into the fairway.
Andy, Dicey? Dicey is what you should aspire to, if you value recovery as a major component to being a sportsman, accentuating the enjoyable/fun factor.
Are you implying DF is a tough walk? And, what does generally interesting mean? DF is more than generally interesting. It's fascinating. In no way does DF play as narrow as it feels, (or looks from aerial) unless all you are trying to do is hit as far as possible. It's truthfully one of the most tactfully designed courses built, in any environ.
The difference is much more than how the desert plays. It's often how, and where, you missed the fairway at DF that makes it fascinating. It's the grounds undulations that deflect and can cause the ball to find the desert. Those same undulations test shot making capabilities on one's next. Few, if any desert course feature these core principles, in such abundance.
Adam,
DF is a pretty simple walk--that's certain a plus. I can change the word dicey to nonexistant if you want--but I'm guessing that's a little unfair. I'm all for trying recovery shots, but I'm not convinced that opportunity exists from the middle of most desert plants. And that's my complaint--the penalty for poor thought or execution is too significant. I think that's a major problem, in a similar fashion to a course I've played in Indiana that has hazards/OB on both sides of 17 holes. Re-teeing or taking unplayable lies all the time isn't fun. Maybe I need to see it more to understand that there are bail-out areas, because I missed them the first time around.
Perhaps you have to be a straight hitter to get the strategy--I think my best strategy would be to play the course without my driver or 3-wood and hope to bunt it around. I suppose that's still strategy, but I'm not sure I'd call it fun on a regular basis.
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Chris
There were a number of things that attracted me to DF. There are damn few walking courses in Phoenix, and DF is one of the best. That's the sad reality of real estate golf. Also, my wife is a high handicap player and most of the other private clubs are just not that accessible to lesser skilled players. DF doesn't have the forced carries (except for #7) that dictate play.
I liked the "two course" situation when we went dormant in the winter. A brown course in January is a hard sell to folks coming down from Illinois and Wisconsin though. I hope that we'll be able to get back to that as the course is arguably at its best with dormant conditions. Seeing virtually no play on Desert Mountain Renegade which is dormant this year makes me think we are not alone in this regard.
I understand Andy's concerns about the penalty for errant shots but it's really not that big of an issue as long as you don't automatically pull driver on every 4-par and 5-par. I hit driver about 80% of the time and maybe get into crap one or two times a round. For what it's worth, a soft fade works pretty well around the course. Bunting is really only needed with a cross wind and that only happens during the Club Championship.
Ran did a fantastic job after walking off a cross-country flight to his rental car literally to the 1st tee. I think he parred the 1st hole as well.
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Chris,
I agree with everything Dave mentions but to more directly answer your question, I also think that really good golf course. I don't find it too penal at all but I will always remember a moment on my first day as a member in a round with Dave where he said, "You like to play a draw?" I answered, "Yes" and he followed up with, "That won't last." ;D He was right, I play a fade whenever possible now.
I struggle a little bit with those that think it is too penal because most FWs have ample room to hit into, even for a very aggressive player. Ran really nails this in his description of the 15th. The FW is huge there. It looks small but once you know you can miss way left and not just be in play but in the FW you realize that there's no reason to steer the ball at all. It is like that more often than not. The greens are the tricky part when it comes to scoring, not keeping the ball in play.
This profile really made me miss home. I've been in Sydney for the last 7 months for work and therefore haven't had a home round in that time. There are some great courses here no doubt and I'm quite sure that a course like NSW deserves to be ranked above Desert Forest but there's no place I enjoy playing golf more than at Desert Forest.
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I have been to the Scottsdale area four times. I had the pleasure of playing Desert Forest on each visit. I have played about a dozen courses in that region but have no real desire to replay any of my other experiences. DF is both naturally beautiful and strategically challenging. Uniquely, it appears to me that the golf course is part of the desert rather than a replaced parcel of it.
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JG,
Did you get a chance to play the "Outlaw" course at Desert Mountain ?
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One of the coolest things about Desert Forest is the low key, golf only, nothing is mandated atmosphere. You want to carry your bag on Saturday morning, go ahead. Another cool thing is how the range, putting green 1st and 10th tees, and 9th and 18th greens are all within about 100 yards of the clubhouse door. The course is great, it’s an enjoyable walk, its well below freezing in Chicago and 76 in Carefree today; what's not to like.
Regarding narrowness, the fairways probably average 40 yards in width, however, if you miss you are in the desert where anything goes. Some of the narrowness is perception which is by design deceptive. There are 3-4 holes where there is much more room than you see off the tee. Good examples are 2, 5, 15 and 16. I think Ran captures the challenge from the tee when he says the real trick is knowing when to back off and play for position rather than distance. On 16 it’s a hybrid to the 70 yard wide fairway at the base of the rise and just 20-25 at the top of the hill in the driver landing zone with death to the left.
The other trick is knowing the angles of play. The dogleg 5th is a perfect example where you can safely play 3 wood to the center of the fairway but driver will take you long under a tree or into the desert. Play left out over the finger of desert that juts into the fairway and carry it 200 from Red's tee and you can hit driver. On 11 which gently bends to the left the second shot requires careful thought or can be blocked out or run through the fairway on your 2nd shot. No doubt the desert can be penal and a card wrecker so stick to match play and drive your opponent nuts by making birdie or par from the desert and shrug off the desert doubles.
Just as important is positioning for your approach. The greenside bunkers may not be flashy but they are wonderfully placed. But as Brian says the greens are where DF really shines. The shaping was tremendous. The short game at DF is a joy. There is a lot of subtle internal movement that sings when the speeds are up which they usually are. Knowing the best spot to approach is key and that only comes with experience. I have played 20-25 times and still learn something new with each play which is the mark of a great course in my opinion.
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Head and shoulders the best Desert Course I have ever played. The green complexes are so much fun you could chip and putt around any one of them for hours. the fairway corridors are as Ran described them. The routing is just great. It still amazes me more have not copied this great design. It is the one place in the Desert I could play for life and be a happy golfer.
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Tiger,
I think you'd like "Outlaw" as well.
Dan,
In 1962 golf in the desert hadn't begun it's boom, especially in the residential community golf courses and resort courses.
Do you think that Red's low to the terrain design was a function of money ?
Not that it was a shoestring project, but that it wasn't a "splashy" project, just his importation of the skills he learned from Flynn.
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Thanks, guys.
I really enjoyed you all sharing your opinions and also WHY you have those opinions. That makes for a better understanding of specific courses.
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Ran what a great story. Desert Forest is one of those gems that leaves a lasting memory of a great golf course. Quietly recognized and honored and loved by the golf aficionado.
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Obviously I'd have to play it to know, but it looks about average in terms of width to me. I'm not feeling like there's tons of room, but very few of the photos looked choked. Having lived here for a while, one thing you quickly realize is that "width" in the desert isn't always a function of absolute yardage but has a lot to do with how likely a shot is to run into the desert. Hitting one way off line deep into the brush is one thing, hitting a decent drive that rolls into trouble is the type of thing that will get a lot of players moaning. Hence the containment mounding on so many desert courses. And that's exactly the complaint I have heard from the few people I know who have played there and felt it was too narrow.
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Ran- agreed that Desert Forest is a gem. I remember playing it for the first time probably 15 years ago and then again(3 years ago) after super Karl Olson had been there opening up the playing corridors for about 4 years and WOW!!!! The first time I played the course, I remember just missing a few fairways and being in the "junk ", only 10 or 20 feet off the fairway. My later experience was much more enjoyable and the club deserves credit for recognizing the problem of overgrown underbrush and native plant spread onto the playing field. I do not remember a mention of Karl Olson in your profile of Desert Forest , and after his magnificent work at The National, Karl's top rate talent and experince polished up Desert Forest for us all to appreciate.
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Desert Forest has significantly contoured and interesting greens. I don't think Ran's photos (despite their excellence) can show the individual quality of the putting surfaces. I do somehow wish they had a bit more variety. The angles and doglegs are used to terrific effect. Many of the holes share qualities of some of Pete Dye's most interesting holes. I wish that the fairways were a bit wider and that the edges of the fairways did not all slope toward the desert, as I would find the course more playable. Although width is overrated for strategic discussion, it is never overrated with regards to being able to find and hit your ball.
The desert scenery is beautiful and stunning. The holes and the course are visually arresting. The walk sublime.
A great place to play golf in January...I look forward to returning someday soon. I will certainly hit more 3 woods off the tee.
Bart
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Ran, I found this to be as exhilirating a course as has been profiled, largely due to the understated nature of the course as it integrates so well with the native flora, but also to the character of the course. I have a particular interest in this period, maybe because it so maligned, and I refuse to accept that the practitioners were blind to qualities that make golf a joy. But, also, because the era seems to show the sleek modern sensibilities of the wider culture, the jet age, pop, the rejection of ornament. Desert Forest looks like it captures that period through and through.
DF and Red Lawrence have jumped up my list. Thank you.
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"Although width is overrated for strategic discussion, it is never overrated with regards to being able to find and hit your ball."
Isn't being able to hit a ball the biggest part of strategy? Its all wrapped into the same discussion.
Ciao
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Yesterday Kevin Cahoon proved Desert Forest is not to narrow by playing his first round without losing a ball (except on the par 3 17th).
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FWIW - I played round 1 and 2 at DF and did not lose a ball. I have certainly lost some since then, a lot of it depends on where you miss and by how much. With an element of luck thrown in!
My favorite thing about DF is that the course is an excellent challenge of golf from tee to green with very little let up.
Tee shots - I think there is sufficient room on the course to miss, but if you are off by 30 or 40 yards from your intended line then you will be in trouble. The key is ball placement off the tee. Pick your ideal landing area and then shape the shot for your "back up" landing area to come into play if necessary. It is challenging.
Approach shots - There are many raised greens which makes it difficult to know where the pin is and where to miss. Focus is required again on the approach shot, especially on the long par 4s. The greens are on the small side so aiming for the center is often a smart play. Usually below the hole is the optimal play.
Short Game - Expect to play a lot of chip shots and a few bunker shots if you are not hitting at the middle of the green. Sometimes landing a ball short of the hole, even just short of the green, is a really good play. The sand in the bunkers is fantastic.
Putting - This is where DF shines - The greens have a lot of subtle movement and tend to break towards Black Mountain. I had about 5 three putts my first time out at DF, which was frustrating, but after a couple of plays you get a really good feel for how the ball is going to move.
That being said - There are a few holes where you can certainly get a stroke back - eg) 6, 7 and 9 on the front and 14, 15 and 16 on the back BUT you have to play smart. Make sure you hit the fairway, hit the right section of the green and give yourself a chance to make the putt.
As someone mentioned about another course recently - The great thing about Desert Forest is that it is "of" the land, not "on" the land. Very few desert courses have the wonderful ripples, rolls and undulations that you find at DF. The way that the fairways run up some side slopes to create "bank shots" is really cool. There are a lot of side hill lies, many of them slight, and often there is a part of the fairway you can hit at that will release the ball into the ideal sport for an approach. It is just so "thoughtfully" designed, which is rare from what I have seen of desert courses.
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They do have a fantastic Asst Pro Matt Cimirele!!!
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Looks and sounds like real golf to me. A crafty players delight. A swing away with the driver players disaster.
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According to Golfweek, Dave Zinkand, of C&C fame, is going to "take a fresh look at the club's tees, bunkers, greens and approaches." Anyone know any more? Based on what I've heard previously, any work on the greens will be of particular interest.
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I hardly suspect the greens would be altered, other than a recapturing of some possible shrinkage.
The bunkers are worth looking at and discussing. I'm not saying they should be changed, but, it is the one aspect that requires some suspension of disbelief, to the mind's eye.
I justified their circular shape because they juxtaposed the natural beauty, thereby accentuating it.
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As one who works at a Flynn course I am interested in those that worked with him, Lawrence being one. Hope to see DF in person some day. This is a great profile and really peaks my interest. Any while the fairways are narrow we must keep in mind that Lawrence was doing something that had not been done in that environment before, he had a minimal approach and most of all was probably limited by the irrigation technology of that time. One good thing is that the Super at DF should never have to sit in a Green Comm. meeting listening to complaints that the rough is inconsistent. ;)
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The greens are on the small side so aiming for the center is often a smart play.
Putting - This is where DF shines - The greens have a lot of subtle movement and tend to break towards Black Mountain.
Rob,
Interesting. Doesn't quite reconcile with this statement from the CG: "Only the large, plain greens keep it from being my favorite desert layout". Have they lost a significant amount of green area over the years?
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I have reviewed the course on here before and I will reiterate this course is as close to playing old Scottish links golf as any inland course I have played.
I disagree that course plays too narrow. The desert surrounding the course is generally level and not filled with huge rocks and boulders. In many places the foliage is not so dense that one can't get the ball back in play so just being off the fairway is not always as bad as others make it sound.
I think a far bigger challenge to scoring are the peaked greens and the very difficult recoveries one faces if off the green in the wrong place
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According to Golfweek, Dave Zinkand, of C&C fame, is going to "take a fresh look at the club's tees, bunkers, greens and approaches." Anyone know any more? Based on what I've heard previously, any work on the greens will be of particular interest.
I sent Zink an email. He said he’s spent a lot of time at DFGC and is very close to presenting a masterplan. He didn’t get into the details. Knowing Zink, he will be very respectful of Red L’s work. He said DF provided a lot of inspiration while they were building WeKoPa. He said they were looking at a lot of things with the emphasis leaning toward, if I understood him correctly, the approaches and around the greens. The DF members on this board should really be the ones to comment. I’ll just say that Dave Zinkand is a very talented and creative young man. He’ll do a great job.
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Thanks to a fellow GCAer I had the chance to return to Desert Forest on Wednesday afternoon for another go, at least in part due to my comments when this thread was originally created. Some comments to follow:
1. The desert is more forgiving than I remembered. I have had people tell me that the club has done some clearing and we found pretty much every desert ball that we spend the time to look for. I went in I believe four times off the tee and found all four balls and was able to play two of them. That seems to be in line with what others have said. I lost two balls trying shots that should not be tried at DF. I believe my host lost one ball.
2. The fairways are by no means wide, but I'm generally satisfied that there is room to play. I left my driver in the car because I'm not very accurate with it and played with a 3-wood or hybrid off the tee with pretty good success. Driver would be useful for length purposes about twice a round for me (#7 and #9), but I'm not sure I'd keep it in play enough to warrant carrying it around. I generally tried to keep it in the middle of the playing corridors and was mostly successful with that strategy and laying back--my 3-wood goes about 240 which was sufficient from the regular tees. I do not think I would enjoy the course from 7,000 yards without a driver, but the tips are not designed for everyone. I most certainly feel more positive toward the width aspect than I did previously, but like many other "really hard" courses its honestly not a course that I would enjoy seeing on a regular basis. Even from the 6500 yard regular tees, the slope is 140.
3. I can understand why some of you do love the course--tee shots like the fifth require thought and execution. I would have aimed my second at the 11th well off the desired line without some local input. The seventh is a fun risk/reward hole with lots of ways to play it. It is far more walkable than most of the other North Scottsdale clubs and the natural lay-of-the-land design certainly is appealing. The greens are not at their best currently, but when they are the greens are plenty challenging and interesting themselves.
4. Overall, the course moved up my personal list significantly on a replay (jumping 50+ courses including a number of other clubs in Scottsdale). I'm sure I still have it lower than most of the others that commented the first go around, but I'm glad to have seen the course again and hopefully I have a better understanding of what it offers.
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Don't get me wrong, I love to walk, but is it walking only? Sounds like a great desert course.
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Not walking only, not for that membership, though it is a very easy walk. They have golf carts, just not any real cart paths, thank goodness, which adds to the charm and atmosphere. Cart traffic in winter tends to get steered down the fairways.
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They also have 4bagger golf carts making it possible for walking 9 and riding 9 or any combination thereof.
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DF is my favorite Arizona course. It is a superb design and a joy to play.
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Andy,
Good to hear. I am playing there next week and am looking forward to it although my game is in shambles. How were the greens condition wise?
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Sean,
This trip was my first golf since September--although I admittedly hit the ball pretty well overall on the trip as long as I left the driver in the bag (or the trunk).
As far as conditioning--slow and some greens were pretty bumpy.